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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Alltel / November 2003How GAIT really works...
...at least with Cingular. Apparently they define which areas are GSM (their own or partner's like T-Mobile) and which are not - TDMA (Cingular or their partner's) or other, like AMPS, I suppose. So what's frustrating is that if you are in GSM area and you don't get GSM signal for whatever reason (i.e. dead-spot or in the building), the phone will _never_ switch to TDMA or AMPS, although I know those networks I available (I had my old AT&T TDMA phone with me.) On the "micro-level", e.g. in one-city boundaries, this defeats the whole purpose of GAIT. On the "macro-level" - when I travel far, e.g. to the mountains to ski, the phone will switch to TDMA, I hope. I am still to see how this is going to work, because I have GSM stretching for quite a bit around where I live (New York City). But there are still some dead-spots still in this area which I hoped to cover by having a GAIT phone and a corresponding plan. I spent l-l-lots of time with their customer and tech support people to gather this. Finally I got one guy on the phone who was really knowledgeable and honestly explained me the way it works... I tried Nokia 6340i and Sony Ericsson T62u: I went to the areas where I knew there were dead-spots for GSM coverage - three on the highway, one on the bridge, at my friend's house and at one other place - all within ~20 mile radius from NYC where the whole area is marked as solid GSM... BTW there is no way to force the phone into any particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so you wouldn't know. Is that how it's supposed to be? Can anybody share their experience with GAIT? With Cingular or any other provider. Thanks Vido >There is no way to force the phone into any >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so >you wouldn't know. With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this. > >There is no way to force the phone into any > >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so > >you wouldn't know. > > With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many > NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this. I think you the only one who knows how. It doesn't seem the subject is that interesting to the rest here. Would you mind sharing, please? (Big PLEASE!!!) I really need it this. I sacrificed a number that I had for 4 years. ..Just before I've learned about WLNP Act... F*k. Seriously man. Can you help? > >There is no way to force the phone into any > >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so > >you wouldn't know. > > With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many > NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this. On a T62U, dial *777* send. Menu features will be unlocked. Look for Protocol Stack under Networks (something like that). You will be able to choose technology type (TDMA, GSM). Thank so much, Chip. Can I dear to one step further and ask what the difference between "TDMA Only" and "TDMA Persistent"? I actually didn't have any luck while selecting either of the TDMA modes until I checked "Ignore SID List" and "Ignore SOC List". What are these things? Then, when I finally got a strong TDMA signal, when I tried to call, the network acted as if I was using not activated TDMA phone on AT&T TDMA network, e.g. I was connected to the network but the message told me that I have to register with AT&T " Any suggestions? Lots of thanks. Vido > > >There is no way to force the phone into any > > >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Protocol Stack under Networks (something like that). You will be able to > choose technology type (TDMA, GSM). > Then, when I finally got a strong TDMA signal, when I tried to call, > the network acted as if I was using not activated TDMA phone on AT&T > TDMA network, e.g. I was connected to the network but the message told > me that I have to register with AT&T?" > Any suggestions? I think this is an argument against GAIT for me. If Dobson gets GSM in our area, since we are 25 miles from the tower, we are beyond the limit for GSM. This means that our existing TDMA coverage will disappear with a GAIT phone, and we will be too far to have a GSM call, unless there ever are phones that fix the range limitation of GSM or allow you to force TDMA. It sounds like GAIT phones are only to allow roaming in areas that have no GSM at all, not to fill in for GSM's problems. Your best bet is to have two phones, or go back to TDMA. > Your best bet is to have two phones, or go back to TDMA. Woo Hoo...My two Nokia 5160 phones would work! > I think this is an argument against GAIT for me. If Dobson gets GSM > in our area, since we are 25 miles from the tower, we are beyond the > limit for GSM. This means that our existing TDMA coverage will > disappear with a GAIT phone, and we will be too far to have a GSM > call, unless there ever are phones that fix the range limitation of > GSM or allow you to force TDMA. From what I've seen so far with the Cingular rollout, GSM and TDMA appear to have almost identical coverage from the same tower--if anything GSM may go a few miles further. In any case that wouldn't be a problem unless Dobson turned off their TDMA/AMPS coverage and there wasn't another GSM/TDMA/AMPS carrier available WITH A ROAMING AGREEMENT. For example, in the FEW places I've lost Cingular GSM coverage THAT ALSO WAS COVERED BY CINGULAR TDMA/AMPS the phone just switched to TDMA and still said Cingular--as it was supposed to do. Vido's problem is that he expects the phone to switch to ANY carrier when it looses the GSM signal, despite the fact that the other carrier MAY NOT HAVE A ROAMING AGREEMENT--FOR THAT AREA. I used to loose Cingular TDMA signal when I pulled up in front of a nearby 7-11 store, guess the towers were just right that the various stores blocked signal from all of them. Anyway, the TDMA/AMPS phone would switch to ATTWS with a strong signal. BUT I still couldn't make or receive a call--I'd get an error message--BECAUSE the roaming agreement doesn't allow for one carrier to be used "for backup" in the other carriers area. GAIT phones do the same thing--switch to the next preferred mode, in my case: Cingular GSM to Cingular TDMA to "preferred GSM" to "preferred" TDMA etc--"preferred" being the keyword since the carrier wouldn't be "preferred" in the IRDB ***unless*** it had a valid roaming agreement. If the IRDB doesn't cover a situation it may or may not work. Example2: Before Cingular GSM went live in Dallas, my 6340i would be on Cingular TDMA until I went into Home Depot and it would switch to GSM on T-Mobile but I could still make a call. (Since then the phone holds onto a very weak Cingular GSM signal.) No doubt the database hadn't allowed for this unusual situation and since T-Mobile is a preferred roamer outside of my home area... > It sounds like GAIT phones are only > to allow roaming in areas that have no GSM at all, not to fill in for > GSM's problems. No question about that. GAIT was advertised as a "transition" solution for a carrier coverting TDMA to GSM, i.e. some areas OF THE SAME CARRIER might be TDMA with others being GSM. It was NEVER advertised that GAIT phones could be used to FILL IN HOLES by switching to another carrier. It may work that way in a few cases but it mostly won't. I'm sure the agreements could be made to allow for "backup" use but in areas like California where Cingular has so many holes (from what people say--the last time *I* was in Calf the phones were still AMPS!) phones would be "roaming" onto another carrier more than they would be on their own system--the roaming rates would have to be increased for the entire plan to make that work. Weren't roaming rates variable years ago? Perhaps they should be variable or at least one rate for "backup" coverage inside your "home" area and another rate (or included in the plan) for everywhere else?  SignatureJud Dallas TX USA With my 6340i in the Detroit market (and I travel all over the country and the situations are the same) I have had Cingular GSM, TDMA and AMPS; ATTWS GSM and TDMA; T-Mobile GSM; Microcell GSM and Bell Mobility AMPS (the last two are Canadian carriers)and received and made calls on all of them with no error messages or no sevice. I think that Cingular puts different IRDB's according to the home market into the phones since I have read many problems like the one below. Chris Please respond on Usenet > Vido's problem is that > he expects the phone to switch to ANY carrier when it looses the GSM [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > inside your "home" area and another rate (or included in the plan) for > everywhere else? > With my 6340i in the Detroit market (and I travel all over the country > and the situations are the same) I have had Cingular GSM, TDMA and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > think that Cingular puts different IRDB's according to the home market > into the phones since I have read many problems like the one below. Perhaps- the rejection of alternative carriers seems more aggressive at home than when roaming. The real problem, however, is understanding how IRDBs are used. Basically they are just a list of preferred and rejected SIDs. Your phone is told never to use a rejected SID, to use a preferred SID when available, but always use your home SID first, (regardless of how crappy the signal is!) Despite "general" roaming agreements between carriers (like Cingular TDMA uses AT&T TDMA where Cingular isn't available) ALL SIDs in your home market other than your carrier's are usually on the rejected list. So even though I may Be in an area of Denver where my AT&T TDMA phone can't pick up AT&T, it will NEVER use Verizon here in Denver. Verizon's SID is "rejected." In Kansas City, where AT&T has a small TDMA coverage area, but Cingular has a larger one, both are preferred SIDs in the phone, and the phone can bounce between them at will. >>With my 6340i in the Detroit market (and I travel all over the country >>and the situations are the same) I have had Cingular GSM, TDMA and [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Cingular has a larger one, both are preferred SIDs in the phone, and > the phone can bounce between them at will. Actually, in my home area of Orlando, Florida, I was frequently roaming on AT&T WS, even when Cingular signal seemed strong. I had Moto TDMA phone, and it was purchases and activated in the Orlando market. This may be an oddity because of Walt Disney World, but it does happen that you can roam on others in your home market. I would have no idea when I was roaming except when I tried *89 to get my voicemail, and I got a message from AT&T Wireless Services that I could not use the feature. I changed the banners for Home, Partner, Favor, and Neutral systems and could still find not pattern between when my phone would jump from Cingular to AT&T and back. AD > > I think this is an argument against GAIT for me. If Dobson gets GSM > > in our area, since we are 25 miles from the tower, we are beyond the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > signal, despite the fact that the other carrier MAY NOT HAVE A ROAMING > AGREEMENT--FOR THAT AREA. Standard GSM has a 35 km limit. You get a signal that is useless from what I understand past the limit. You can send SMS, but no voice transmission is possible. Therefore, if the gate phone were to pick up a standard GSM tower past the 35km limit, and the phone won't let you switch to TDMA, you would not be able to make a call. There is something called extended range GSM, but will any US carriers use it? See http://www.ericsson.co.nz/press/2000/20000302_vodafone.shtml > Standard GSM has a 35 km limit. You get a signal that is useless from > what I understand past the limit. You can send SMS, but no voice [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > something called extended range GSM, but will any US carriers use it? > See http://www.ericsson.co.nz/press/2000/20000302_vodafone.shtml Unfortunately, both Extended Range GSM (72 km limit) and Enhanced Extended Range GSM (121 km) cells are incompatible with GPRS. And because two timeslots are allocated to each active call, only half the number of concurrent calls can be handled by one of these cells. And the 35 km distance limit for normal GSM cells applies equally to SMS. John I'm Sure you can squeeze in an SMS in the outskirts of the cell. its only a few bytes of data > And the 35 km distance limit for normal GSM cells applies equally > to SMS. > > John > I'm Sure you can squeeze in an SMS in the outskirts of the cell. its only a > few bytes of data Not if you don't have a valid value for Timing Advance (TA) you can't. TA is a 6-bit integer field (valid values from zero to 63), with each increment corresponding to an extra 553.5 metres from the BTS. John > > I'm Sure you can squeeze in an SMS in the outskirts of the cell. its only a > > few bytes of data [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John So the presence of a GSM signal will cause you not to be able to use a GAIT phone when outside the 35km limit. Since I frequently make calls using TDMA in this situation due to terrain, there is no point to ever getting a GAIT phone, unless they allow you to manually select TDMA like Verizon does with AMPS. A GAIT phone would be useful if GSM were only available on the PCS band, and TDMA at the cellular band. I think it is interesting that the SE T62U and Siemens S46 are both gone from ATTWS web site. So maybe GAIT really doesn't work very well for ATTWS. > > > I'm Sure you can squeeze in an SMS in the outskirts of the cell. its only a > > > few bytes of data [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > gone from ATTWS web site. So maybe GAIT really doesn't work very well > for ATTWS. As I understand it, ATTWS didn't want to keep selling phones that would require a commitment to multiple systems any longer than they'd have to. The REALLY would rather force everyone to GSM. As for the manual select, the S46 allows TDMA only, GSM only or Automatic. In some places, there are both signals and you can take your pick. >>>I'm Sure you can squeeze in an SMS in the outskirts of the cell. its only a >>>few bytes of data [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > gone from ATTWS web site. So maybe GAIT really doesn't work very well > for ATTWS. I have an SE T62u, and I have manually selected "TDMA Only". Menu -> Settings -> Networks -> Protocol Stack Options include: - GSM Pref - TDMA Pref - GSM Only - TDMA Only - TDMA Persistent - GSM Home Pref - Use SIM I would also like to add that in my home area, when I lose Cingular signal, I often roam on AT&T. The only time I notice this is when I get a message from AT&T Wireless Services when I try dialing *89 to check my e-mail. AD > So the presence of a GSM signal will cause you not to be able to use a > GAIT phone when outside the 35km limit. Since I frequently make calls > using TDMA in this situation due to terrain, there is no point to ever > getting a GAIT phone, unless they allow you to manually select TDMA > like Verizon does with AMPS. A GAIT phone would be useful if GSM were > only available on the PCS band, and TDMA at the cellular band. I'm a bit confused. I think you're over analyzing. From what I've seen so far in north Texas, Cingular GSM and TDMA are almost EXACTLY the same footprint. GSM may even be a bit clearer at the fringes--where I loose the DFW signal to the south of the city TDMA would get "choppy" the last few miles but GSM holds a solid call until Dobson TDMA takes over. Even if a GAIT phone lost the GSM signal in a Cingular area Cingular TDMA would take over but that's going to be VERY rare--so far I've only noticed it once in DFW. To be a problem in the home area it would have to be a very weak GSM signal--just enough to cause the phone to try to retain it instead of switching to TDMA. I have not seen such an area. Cingular apparently has done an excellent job overlaying. The only other time it would be a problem is if 1) home or preferred carrier doesn't have BOTH GSM and TDMA, 2) you hit an area that looses GSM but has TDMA from another carrier, and 3) the other carrier is banned so you cannot roam on them. That's not likely to happen if you're actually roaming outside your home area--even if you loose the GSM carrier odds are the phone will be perfectly happy with the TDMA carrier. You might miss some inbound calls if you're switching back and forth rapidly while the system tries to keep up with you. Example-- Brownwood TX has weak T-Mobile GSM but strong Dobson TDMA. My 6340i would lock onto T-Mobile in hilly areas but would attempt to switch to TDMA in low areas but usually by the time it registered I'd be back in T-Mobile. Interesting tidbit--since Cingular went GSM in my home area the phone no longer selects T-Mobile GSM at all in Brownwood--stays on Dobson TDMA. Since both are preferred I would have thought a GSM carrier would have higher priority but apparently not always. So really the only time this would bite someone is if they're trying to use a GAIT phone in a Cingular GSM-only area where the TDMA carrier is banned. In which case the GAIT phone is probably not officially supported anyway. California anyone? But even then the GAIT phone wouldn't be any WORSE than a GSM-only phone. SignatureJud Dallas TX USA >> So the presence of a GSM signal will cause you not to be able to use a >> GAIT phone when outside the 35km limit. Since I frequently make calls Why are you people cluttering up a.c.alltel and a.c.cdma with GSM crap? Never mind, you use ATT TDMA/GSM, so we already know - you're clueless. SignatureMark > > So the presence of a GSM signal will cause you not to be able to use a > > GAIT phone when outside the 35km limit. Since I frequently make calls [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > supported anyway. California anyone? But even then the GAIT phone > wouldn't be any WORSE than a GSM-only phone. If you are correct, and the phone can switch to TDMA, and the carrier will let you used TDMA, even though that same carrier has GSM, you would be right. I think you are talking about different signals from different carriers, and if you can use GSM at all, you are not past the 35km limit. I guess I was thinking of AMPS not being usable on TDMA phones except when there was no TDMA signal at all. The reason why I am past the 35km limit is that the closest tower is at an elevation of 860 feet, and we are at an elevation of 1300 feet, and the tower is only 300 feet tall, so it is well below the horizon, and I have verified that it cannot be reached via a YAGI antenna, and I am in a place with almost no population and a coverage hole, so I go for the next closest tower which is at the same elevation as me, and a height of 400 feet. Basically I am luck to get phone service at all. >Standard GSM has a 35 km limit. You get a signal that is useless from >what I understand past the limit. You can send SMS, but no voice [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >something called extended range GSM, but will any US carriers use it? >See http://www.ericsson.co.nz/press/2000/20000302_vodafone.shtml There is no "gate" phone! There is however GAIT. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To send an email reply send to GSMthemobilestandard (@) yahoo.com Sounds like you have a GAIT phone, but a GSM plan. Or AT&T didn't activate your account correctly. > Thank so much, Chip. > Can I dear to one step further and ask what the difference between [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Protocol Stack under Networks (something like that). You will be able to > > choose technology type (TDMA, GSM). |
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