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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / April 2004ATT Bleeding Customers ( no big surprise!)
Anyone else hear how horrible ATT wireless has been performing? Since number portability came out, for every 1 person that left Verizon for ATT, 10 people have left ATT for Verizon! Those are Nationwide numbers! In New York, the numbers are 20 to 1 in Verizon's favor.....not a surprise, considering the poor coverage GSM carriers have in the US, but that is pretty impressive! Also, the FCC has been hounding ATT (cingular too) for their absolutely horrible handling of all the port outs ( some taking weeks to perform), to the point where lawsuits were on the table. ATT is having a customer LOSS for the quarter, while CDMA carriers (Sprint PCS and VZW) are skyrocketing on new 2year subscribers! (without the desperate slashing of prices I might add...) Just thought I'd drop a line to you ATT (at the moment) users... Heck all that means is that we'll get better service with so few customers...LOL TC > Anyone else hear how horrible ATT wireless has been performing? Since > number portability came out, for every 1 person that left Verizon for ATT, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Just thought I'd drop a line to you ATT (at the moment) users... We'll probably never again get a "system busy" signal! Ths lines are all ours! >Heck all that means is that we'll get better service with so few >customers...LOL ---------------------------- To email me, remove the zz. True, but it seems that hundreds of thousands of people are realizing that there are better services offered everywhere else...ie your neighborhood RadioShack....Just look at the two services that they support...Sprint PCS and Verizon Wireless! The nations top wireless retailer (by a huge, huge margin) is and has for years been carrying arguably the 2 best Wireless companies. And believe me, I'm not a Verizon troll at all, in fact I use SprintPCS and wouldn't want anything else, but damn guys, there is such a better service probably offered 5 mins from where you all live here in the US...why not just take advantage of it? > We'll probably never again get a "system busy" signal! Ths lines are > all ours! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ---------------------------- > To email me, remove the zz. > True, but it seems that hundreds of thousands of people are realizing that > there are better services offered everywhere else...ie your neighborhood [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably offered 5 mins from where you all live here in the US...why not > just take advantage of it? Two possible reasons. Verizon charges more per minute; and SprintPCS Customer Service is itself nothing to write home about. Yes, Sprint PCS has had horrible customer service, yet I'm quite sure that they were ranked ahead of ATT. As a PCS customer, the best thing that I can say is that I've only had to call them maybe twice in the past 2 years. As far as Verizons cost goes, well the rates are approx the same as Sprint, but my question is, if you're going to get a wireless phone for you or your family, is 5 or 10 dollars a month really an issue to you? I mean lets face it, many of us use phones that cost 100-200 dollars, ( for ones that have PTT, 3g, camera/camcorder). Isn't it worth an extra 5 or even 10 bucks to make sure that you can actually use these things? > > True, but it seems that hundreds of thousands of people are realizing that > > there are better services offered everywhere else...ie your neighborhood [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Two possible reasons. Verizon charges more per minute; and SprintPCS > Customer Service is itself nothing to write home about. > es, Sprint PCS has had horrible customer service, yet I'm quite sure that > they were ranked ahead of ATT. As a PCS customer, the best thing that I can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that have PTT, 3g, camera/camcorder). Isn't it worth an extra 5 or even 10 > bucks to make sure that you can actually use these things? Heck, I'm always amazed at folks that wont spend $20 (after rebate) to get proper anti-virus protection for their $1000 + PC. >>es, Sprint PCS has had horrible customer service, yet I'm quite sure that >>they were ranked ahead of ATT. As a PCS customer, the best thing that I can [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Heck, I'm always amazed at folks that wont spend $20 (after rebate) to > get proper anti-virus protection for their $1000 + PC. Wow Robert, you finally said something that is true and makes sense and I agree with you 100%. Lol, good point! > Heck, I'm always amazed at folks that wont spend $20 (after rebate) to > get proper anti-virus protection for their $1000 + PC. >Two possible reasons. Verizon charges more per minute; and SprintPCS >Customer Service is itself nothing to write home about. Well, although their (Sprint PCS) hold times sometimes are terrible, I haven't had to call them in well over a year. The service just works as expected and there really isn't many reasons to call Customer Service. -- John S. e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net > True, but it seems that hundreds of thousands of people are realizing that > there are better services offered everywhere else...ie your neighborhood [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably offered 5 mins from where you all live here in the US...why not > just take advantage of it? You know, there has been a lot of talk about how AT&T is "bleeding" customers and I will grant that negative net customers is never a good thing but by my calculation, Verizon "loses" over 600000 customers per month and those people are certainly not giving up on wireless altogether. And as I would expect, it's only going to get worse the closer we get to the merge date. Frankly it's much ado about nothing. There are going to be swings in the wireless industry. If memory serves, Cingular had net loses a couple quarters last year but it doesn't seem to have affected them and frankly, Cingular and Verizon would be nowhere without previous mergers of their own. So what's the point of all this? If you hate AT&T then leave. There are plenty of options to choose from. If you like AT&T then stay because (as a consumer) it will only get better once the merge takes place. There are good and bad things about all carriers in any given area. Try out your local carriers during their trial period and choose the best fit for you. Hmm...I'm not really sure that I understand what you mean by Verizon "losing" customers...do you mean losing the competition to get a new subscriber to join them rather than ATT? If that is what you mean, then that is kinda our point. I think of ATT like I think of Walmart. They sell cheap. That is the price and that is the product. Tons of people purchase items at Wallyworld for various reasons, but the lowest price is usually the most common among them. I'm sure they must know deep down (even the most white trash among them) that they could purchase a better quality product and get better customer service if they paid a small percentage more, and took their business elsewhere. My question is, for many people wireless is either a luxury (at which point price shouldn't matter too much) or a need ( at which point reliability such as Verizon or Sprint would be more appropriate). Agree or Disagree? > > True, but it seems that hundreds of thousands of people are realizing that > > there are better services offered everywhere else...ie your neighborhood [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > good and bad things about all carriers in any given area. Try out your > local carriers during their trial period and choose the best fit for you. > I think of ATT like I think of Walmart. They sell > cheap. That is the price and that is the product. Tons of people purchase [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and get better customer service if they paid a small percentage more, and > took their business elsewhere. Yet Wal-Mart is the nation's largest retailer, period. AT&T WISHES they were like Wal-Mart! > My question is, for many people wireless is either a luxury (at which > point price shouldn't matter too much) or a need ( at which point > reliability such as Verizon or Sprint would be more appropriate). > Agree or Disagree? In what way is Sprint more or less "reliable" than anyone else? CS is weak, their native coverage is lacking- without Verizon as a roaming partner, Sprint would have T-Mo class "merto-only" coverage- so what is so "reliable" about Sprint? If they need Verizon coverage to make them a "national" carrier, why shouldn't Sprint customers cut out the proverbial middle-man and just get Verizon? AT&T and Cingular make a good fit for a merger because they've relied on each other for years to fill in their gaps in coverage. When the merger is complete, Cingular and Verizon will both be forces to be reckoned with, and maybe the competition will force Verizon's pricing to get a little more realistic. > If you like AT&T then stay because (as a > consumer) it will only get better once the merge takes place. That is hardly a given. Between merging CRS systems and massive layoffs, there could be "issues". Group: alt.cellular.attws Date: Thu, Apr 8, 2004, 10:17am (EST+5) From: rmarkoff@msn.com (Robert M.) wrote: <<That is hardly a given. Between merging CRS systems and massive layoffs, there could be "issues". >> You know all about having "issues" don't you. You have too many to even try to count. > True, but it seems that hundreds of thousands of people are realizing that > there are better services offered everywhere else...ie your neighborhood > RadioShack....Just look at the two services that they support...Sprint PCS > and Verizon Wireless! The nations top wireless retailer (by a huge, huge > margin) is and has for years been carrying arguably the 2 best Wireless > companies. Whoa there, Nellie... time for a little history lesson: RadioShack doesn't carry Verizon and Sprint because they're the "two best", they carry them for simplicity across a national store base. I worked for RadioShack during the conversion. Prior to the Verizon contract, Radio Shack (it was two words back then!) signed individual contracts in each area based on a variety of factors, including coverage, (not to mention who paid the best commission!) Generally it was the wireline carrier in each market. This required customizing mail flyers for each area of the country, leaving employee training in the hands of local cellular company reps, a lack of national pricing on phones, different models of phones having to be stocked in warehouses for different areas (CDMA, TDMA) etc. Eventually, RadioShack wanted a national cellular strategy for advertising and training, and consistant product to stock in all stores. The only carrier that could offer this was Verizon, so Verizon was chosen. (Sprint was another story- it involved a huge multi-year contract involving co-branding, long distance, and again had far less to do with "best" as much as with national) This isn't to say that Verizon or Sprint aren't "best," just to point out that a subjective definition of best has nothing to do with the reasons a company chooses a product to carry. My guess is that RadioShack's standing as the largest wireless retailer helps Verizon and Sprint more than the other way around. RS has a long tradition of shoving mediocre products down America's throat. They could probably have made T-Mobile the wireless market leader if they chose to carry them! In fact, RadioShack has never been accused of backing the winning horse- these guys chose RCA video disc players with needles over laser disc players, Mattel's doomed Intellivision TV game consoles over Atari's 2600, and embraced IBM PC Jr. standards over IBM PC when designing their first consumer MS-DOS based PCs. On track record alone, I'd almost say that if RadioShack chooses a standard to embrace, it's likely the wrong one! ;-) > And believe me, I'm not a Verizon troll at all, in fact I use SprintPCS and > wouldn't want anything else, but damn guys, there is such a better service > probably offered 5 mins from where you all live here in the US...why not > just take advantage of it? Because it's the highest priced of the national wireless services? Most of it's phones lack simple built-in connectivity features like IR or bluetooth? No international compatibility? Again, not knocking them, just pointing out what's the "best" for you isn't necessarily "best" for me or somebody else. Oh, and BTW, yes, you WERE trolling. Sometimes the need for fact-correction trumps the rule about not feeding trolls! Wow, I do have to hand it to you Todd for actually coming up with coherent counter points to some of mine. I don't agree with them completely, but it is nice to have someone build an argument....refreshing almost. Perhaps we can continue? The one thing I agree very much with was: "Again, not knocking them, just pointing out what's the "best" for you isn't necessarily "best" for me or somebody else." --This is a very universally true statement. Shall we focus on majority perhaps? or establish what that might be? To my mind, typically the most important quality of a product, be it a wireless phone, or anything else, is that it WORK. Reliability ( of coverage) is the foundation that any feature is built on. This is, and has always been Verizon's claim to fame! The fact that their network has repeatedly been rated the "largest and most reliable", would I think put them a step ahead of any carrier toward being the best choice. Is this not agreable? Sprint's own network itself is reported at being at least 25% larger than ATT's, and more advanced, yada yada yada, I'm sure you probably know more about cdma vs tdma/gsm than i care to. All carriers now are offering clear(er) calls, so Sprints long running advantage on that is certainly fading, but innovative features, gizmos, and games are something that they've always lead the market in. Coincedently, isn't that the same thing RadioShack can claim? I think we're straying from topic a bit, but I have a LOT of respect for this company. My family has always since I was a kid, chosen RadioShack as a destination for pretty much anything that ran on batteries. My older sister got her first PC there, (TRS-80 was it?) RC cars from RS were always way better than the crap my friends got from a toys-r-us type place. RadioShack has defined the electronics industry pretty much since there was one. I agree that they probably carried T-mobile(formerly Voicestream, formerly Omnipoint, formerly god-knows-what) and helped them grow into a decent service, but they didn't...they chose SprintPCS and it Worked. I'm sure stores are different everywhere, but lets face it, those annoying and disreputable (also temporary) wireless kiosks and stores do more "shoving down the throat" than any RS I've ever been in. Lol, I suppose this makes me a RS troll too! :) Sorry bout that! Anyway write back! > but lets face it, those annoying and > disreputable (also temporary) wireless kiosks and stores do more "shoving > down the throat" than any RS I've ever been in. Half the cellular kiosks in any mall I know of are owned and run by RadioShack. Really? are you sure? I've never seen one that is...I'm on the east coast...perhaps they haven't bothered with that out here. In our malls you can't walk 5 feet without being literally assaulted by no name "companies" that are in business for 2 months at best. They lie, cheat, manipulate your social security number), then close up shop...leaving customers holding a bag with a product in it that no one except possibly customer service will support. At least if the booths in your area are RS owned, it give them some credibility...they started offering wireless phones nationally before anyone else, and therefore at least have a distinguished reputation in the business. > > but lets face it, those annoying and > > disreputable (also temporary) wireless kiosks and stores do more "shoving > > down the throat" than any RS I've ever been in. > > Half the cellular kiosks in any mall I know of are owned and run by > RadioShack. > Really? are you sure? I've never seen one that is Next SprintPCS kiosk in a Mall you see ask. Its most likely really a radioShacK operation. > The one thing I agree very much with was: "Again, not knocking them, > just pointing out what's the "best" for you isn't necessarily "best" for me [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > foundation that any feature is built on. This is, and has always been > Verizon's claim to fame! From a totality ("nationwide", if you will) standpoint, perhaps, but each individual trade area varies. When I lived in the southeast Kansas City metro, Cingular (the B-side 800mhz) carrier had much better coverage in areas I traveled than Verizon (the A carrier.) Now I live in a valley west of Littleton, Colorado, and neither cellular carrier works reliably (ATTWS and Verizon are the A & B carriers respectively). Only Sprint and T-Mobile reach my house. (Shocking the heck out of me- I've always been an 800MHz snob!) So Verizon may have the "best" network, but not where I live! However, at my Mother's house in Rhode Island where I grew up, Verizon works in the basement, and Cingular barely works if I stand on the hood of my car in the driveway. > The fact that their network has repeatedly been > rated the "largest and most reliable", would I think put them a step ahead > of any carrier toward being the best choice. Is this not agreable? Again, McDonald's might have the best french fries in a nationwide survey, but if the particular McD's closest to your house serves them half-cooked, the survey is meaningless to you. IMHO, since the "average" customer roams less than 5% of the time, the service that works best where you work and play is the best service for you. Often that might be Verizon, but Verizon's stellar coverage in, say, Chicago, means nothing to the wireless user in Wala Wala, Washington. > Sprint's own network itself is reported at being at least 25% larger than > ATT's, and more advanced, yada yada yada, I'm sure you probably know more > about cdma vs tdma/gsm than i care to. Maybe, but in my mind it's meaningless. The best coverage is the best coverage, regardless if it's GSM, CDMA, or whatever. > All carriers now are offering clear(er) calls, so Sprints long running > advantage on that is certainly fading, That was all marketing hype anyway. Digital had no static, but radio is radio- lost transmissions on analog give you static, on digital you get silence. "Can y-- -ear me -ow?" is no real improvement to static, IMHO! > but innovative features, gizmos, and > games are something that they've always lead the market in. No, Japan and the Japanese market leads on those things, and we adopt them later. Sprint usually lead the US introduction, back when they were the only "all-digital nationwide network" (since anlog networks don't support such things) but now that everyone's digital, features tend to show up across technologies (although AT&T and Cingular have been a bit stunted in features being distracted by their conversion from TDMA to GSM.) > Coincedently, > isn't that the same thing RadioShack can claim? Many times, yes. However, RadioShack could never really decide whether they wanted to lead the market or follow. In things like the PC revolution they were leaders, but in consumer electronics they tended to lag, wanting to be sure the product wasn't a fad, and missing part of the curve. > I think we're straying from topic a bit, but I have a LOT of respect for > this company. As do I. I love RS and loved working for them. > My family has always since I was a kid, chosen RadioShack as > a destination for pretty much anything that ran on batteries. My older > sister got her first PC there, (TRS-80 was it?) Yep. The "Trash 80s" were amazing machines in their day. I still own a CoCo (the "Color Computer" that connected to a TV set and used cartridges like video games do) to this day. > RC cars from RS were always > way better than the crap my friends got from a toys-r-us type place. Agreed. > RadioShack has defined the electronics industry pretty much since there was > one. They did manage to define themselves as the place to look if you didn't know where to find something. They used to say (internally) that they were the market leaders in "little black boxes people didn't know the name of" like video amplifiers, phone bugs, etc. > I agree that they probably carried T-mobile(formerly Voicestream, > formerly Omnipoint, formerly god-knows-what) and helped them grow into a > decent service, but they didn't...they chose SprintPCS and it Worked. RS never carried any PCS service except Sprint. I used T-Mo as an example of a company who RS could've launched into the stratosphere if they wanted to. RadioShack wanted Sprint because of their national coverage. No PCS company had more 1900MHz spectrum. In addition, RadioShack was falling in love with residual income at that time, and entered into a deal with Sprint to sell Sprint LD, Sprint-brand phones (actually RadioShack's old private-label phones relabled "Sprint"!) > I'm > sure stores are different everywhere, but lets face it, those annoying and > disreputable (also temporary) wireless kiosks and stores do more "shoving > down the throat" than any RS I've ever been in. Lol, I suppose this makes > me a RS troll too! :) RadioShack made me a lot of money both as an employee and with their stock, so I'll let it slide! ;-) > Again, McDonald's might have the best french fries in a nationwide > survey, but if the particular McD's closest to your house serves them > half-cooked, the survey is meaningless to you. McDonalds on Whaley Avenue in West Haven, CT is the worst of the lot. > I think we're straying from topic a bit, but I have a LOT of respect for > this company. My family has always since I was a kid, chosen RadioShack as > a destination for pretty much anything that ran on batteries. Kev, Radio Shack is basically electronics for those who don't know any better. They sell products of lower quality and at higher prices than any other electronics retailer that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean that I don't respect them, nor does it mean that I won't shop there sometimes. They can be a very useful resource when I need a fuse or an electrical connector or component in a hurry. But RS is rarely the place to go for assembled electronics. If you're looking for bottom line quality and price, you'll generally get the same quality at half the price at Walmart. As for Sprint, it's a perfect match for Radio Shack. Lower quality than other carriers, and at higher prices. Just like everything else that RS sells. Radio Shack: "You've got questions, We've got batteries". > Kev, Radio Shack is basically electronics for those who don't know any > better. They sell products of lower quality and at higher prices than > any other electronics retailer that I'm aware of. How so? Is the HP photo printer that sits on my desk which I bought from them a lower quality version than the one that Staples sold for $30 dollars more? Perhaps their Panasonic 2.4Ghz cordless phone selection was simply "factory rejects" and was therefore sold at the same prices as Walmart had on their huge stack of them, classly displayed next to diapers on a big wooden pallet... Wait, wait, perhaps that RCA progressive scan DVD player was 10 dollars too much...Of course I couldn't decide between all the 15 different models of Apex (and other "name brands") that walmart had lined up, but I guess I was glad that a sales rep at RS helped me find one with an optical jack thingy one it so i could properly hook it up to my surround sound. > That doesn't mean that I don't respect them, nor does it mean that I > won't shop there sometimes. They can be a very useful resource when I > need a fuse or an electrical connector or component in a hurry. Agreed, or pretty much anything in a hurry. I bought a 15 dollar cable there that I later found out that I could have gotten at Walmart for 12 bucks. Did I feel ripped off? Not at all. I would have had to look for that cable for 10 mins at Wally world before I could find it, then stand in line at a checkout for another 10 behind people with smelly kids wearing mullets....nooo thank you! Total time to buy the cord at RS, was about 1 1/2 mins...I kid you not. I can't buy a precooked hamburger at McDonalds that fast! > But RS is rarely the place to go for assembled electronics. If you're > looking for bottom line quality and price, you'll generally get the same > quality at half the price at Walmart. After dealing with for so long, I've become a snob when I shop elsewhere... I actually feel offended, when I walk into a Staples, or my pet peeve, a Best Buy, and no one even offers to help me with what I came in for. Once at BB, I spent 20 mins looking around the home stereo area without any help at all, totally ignored. I eventually decided on a reciever, but had to go hunt someone down for it. I got so frustrated that I had to waive my wallet in the air, hoping that someone would see that I had money or something..... If I RS carried that product, I'm sure that I would have been offered help near immediately. If it was a bit high priced I would have paid it happily, if only for the attention, and the fact that I wouldn't have to stand in line to buy something that I wasn't even helped with. As it was, I had to go to RS later anyway to get the cables that BB probably should have thought enough of its customers to advise me that I was going to need. > As for Sprint, it's a perfect match for Radio Shack. Lower quality than > other carriers, and at higher prices. Just like everything else that RS > sells. I agree, Sprint is a perfect match for RS...Their price might be a couple bucks per month higher than the low end carriers (gsm), but thats because they are able to command it. Same with RS. It simply is not about price, its about satisfaction and service. > Radio Shack: "You've got questions, We've got batteries". Radio Shack " You've got questions? Well its a good thing you came here, cause most places don't know what the f*ck their doing!" :) |
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