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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / July 2004

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The new AT&T Wireless

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Robert M - 19 May 2004 13:36 GMT
I need someone to explain this to me. AT&T inked a 5 year deal with
Sprint PCS to use the Sprint Wireless PCS network for new service it
will be starting up soon. Sort of like Virgin Mobile does. Could be a
win-win deal.

Then I read this is a "nonexclusive deal" and AT&T is also negotiating
with Nextel and T-Mobile. I'm not aware of any phones that could do
CDMA, GSM and IDEN. The only phone planned that does CDMA and GSM is
designed to roam in Europe on their GSM frequencies, not stateside.

So what might AT&T have up it's sleeve?
Bob Smith - 19 May 2004 14:11 GMT
> I need someone to explain this to me. AT&T inked a 5 year deal with
> Sprint PCS to use the Sprint Wireless PCS network for new service it
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> So what might AT&T have up it's sleeve?

I don't believe the 800, 900, 1800 or 1900 freqs will matter with ATT's deal
here. It sounds like it's all going to be VoIP, to where all they need to do
is have handsets built to interact with SPCS's Vision and the other
provider's wireless internet interface. http://att.com/voip/

Bob
Mike - 19 May 2004 16:46 GMT
>>I need someone to explain this to me. AT&T inked a 5 year deal with
>>Sprint PCS to use the Sprint Wireless PCS network for new service it
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Bob

Does Nextel have the network to support VoIP? WiDEN should support it,
but that would be a valuable deal where? Charlotte, NC? Nextel has to
have some big plans for network upgrades...
Besides, wouldn't a VoIP phone using a CDMA or GSM provider's internet
interface still need to support the underlying standard, at least to a
degree? I don't think that you can do Vision without doing CDMA. CDMA
isn't voice. CDMA is a data transmission method used by phones to handle
digital data that happens to be, usually, voice. I know that you can't
do it without supporting the underlying frequencies. 900/1800 don't
matter in the US, so we're probably talking 800/1900. Either way, the
frequencies will matter.
-mike
Frank Harris - 19 May 2004 16:02 GMT
Here's what I think will be entertaining to watch:  how ATT's marketing
people will relabel the Sprint coverage areas and technologies, and how
they'll spin CDMA into being the 'next big thing', after saying they've
had something better for years.

Until very recently, when ATTWS began to use the phrase "GSM" in
advertising, their literature has always avoided specific terms and
instead used marketing generalities, or referred you to your own plan's
fine print.  GSM was always "Next Generation".  TDMA was "Digital."
GAIT was "multi-band."  Coverage maps had as many as 7 different colors,
described in opaque terms such as "local service area" "additional
service area", "additional roaming area", "expanded calling local
service area", "expanded calling roaming area", and "expanded calling
home service area" (I'm copying these right off of their brochure!).

Signature

Frank Harris in San Francisco with an A620

Thomas T. Veldhouse - 19 May 2004 16:23 GMT
In alt.cellular.sprintpcs Frank Harris <frankbhX@xcompuservex.com> wrote:

> Until very recently, when ATTWS began to use the phrase "GSM" in
> advertising, their literature has always avoided specific terms and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> service area", "expanded calling roaming area", and "expanded calling
> home service area" (I'm copying these right off of their brochure!).

The only thing AT&T Wireless markets now is how many "bars" they have.
Funny thing is that I think that advertising approach may work in
markets where they indeed to have good coverage.  It will certainly get
people in the door.

- --

Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE  34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
Lawrence Glasser - 20 May 2004 15:39 GMT
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> markets where they indeed to have good coverage.  It will certainly get
> people in the door.

I'd imagine, for the lay-person, "bars" mean everything when it comes
to looking for a good phone/carrier.

Larry
Robert M - 20 May 2004 16:22 GMT
> I'd imagine, for the lay-person, "bars" mean everything when it comes
> to looking for a good phone/carrier.

Kinda like MHz on a home computer.
Robert M - 20 May 2004 16:29 GMT
The AT&T Wireless name reverts to AT&T when Cingular completes its
purchase of AT&T Wireless. AT&T has said they want a new cellualr
presence and has now negotiated with Sprint to do that.

One minor fly in the ointment. Wall Street is now rumbling that with
AT&T  (T) now at a 5 year low for its stock price, bell South may be
interested in buying it. If that happens then there's no need to use
Sprint's wireless network, as bell South owns 40% of Cingular.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040519/at_t_poison_pill_1.html
John S. - 19 May 2004 18:48 GMT
>after saying they've
>had something better for years.

AT&T hasn't had anything for years. How can thay claim to have had something
better?

Keep in mind that we are talking about AT&T not AT&T WS. They are TWO completly
seperate companies.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Robert M - 19 May 2004 21:53 GMT
> Keep in mind that we are talking about AT&T not AT&T WS. They are TWO
> completly
> seperate companies.

Good luck convincing consumers that.

The AT&T Death Star rules the mindset.
Frank Harris - 22 May 2004 06:33 GMT
I can't believe where all you guys have taken this thread!  I was trying
to make fun of how ATT or ATTWS would relabel useful technical terms
with obfuscating marketing terms, and you're off trying to logically
compare the nonsensical marketing terms, or what's 2G vs 3G, or worse.

> Here's what I think will be entertaining to watch:  how ATT's marketing
> people will relabel  <snip>

Signature

Frank Harris in San Francisco with an A620

Robert M - 22 May 2004 20:50 GMT
> I can't believe where all you guys have taken this thread!  I was trying
> to make fun of how ATT or ATTWS would relabel useful technical terms
> with obfuscating marketing terms, and you're off trying to logically
> compare the nonsensical marketing terms, or what's 2G vs 3G, or worse.

Its almost like someone in their marketing department is an EST graduate.

Confuse people by using new terminology.
Jeremy - 21 Jun 2004 22:33 GMT
> Until very recently, when ATTWS began to use the phrase "GSM" in
> advertising, their literature has always avoided specific terms and
> instead used marketing generalities, or referred you to your own plan's
> fine print.  GSM was always "Next Generation".  TDMA was "Digital."
> GAIT was "multi-band."

AT&T has been very consistent about the concept of transparency to the user,
going back to the pre-1984 Consent Decree days.

Their vision of telephony was that the customer just had to pick up the
handset and dial the number--the rest was up to AT&T.  The customer didn't
have to know about "least cost routing" or how AT&T delivered the call to
the distant end.

They applied the same thinking to their digital service.  They were the ones
that freed users from worrying about roaming charges, with their national
One-Rate plans.  I still have a grandfathered Digital One Rate plan and it
is great.  I never concern myself with what the display says--I just make
the call and I never pay a roaming fee, as long as I am within my large home
rate area.

Same with the concept of free long distance and free nights/weekends.  AT&T
introduced them all--making it easy on the customer to manage his wireless
bills.  He just dialed and talked--and left the details to AT&T.

And how about roaming via the North American Cellular Network?  No-hassles.
Remember the analog days, when callers had to have a "Roaming Directory,"
and had to know what city you were in, before they could call you?  And Bell
Atlantic Mobile later introduced "Follow Me Roam," where the cell phone USER
had to enter a code when he entered a foreign system, and then all calls to
his number would be automatically forwarded to him.  Only problem was that
the user often did not KNOW exactly when he crossed over onto a foreign
system.  Or, if he was driving a long-haul, he might cross from one system
into another several times while on his journey.  He had no way of knowing
for sure what system he was on, because his phone simply displayed "roam."

AT&T made all that obsolete.  Callers dialed your local wireless number and,
if you were anywhere on-network, the call was delivered to you.

Transparent.  Hassle-free.  Not perfect, but well ahead of the competition.
And no burden placed on the customer to "know" anything about how the
network operated.  Just turn on your phone and dial.
R?bert M. - 22 Jun 2004 04:06 GMT
> Transparent.  Hassle-free.  Not perfect, but well ahead of the competition.
> And no burden placed on the customer to "know" anything about how the
> network operated.  Just turn on your phone and dial.

Too bad the new AT&T wont be able to do any of that since they are using
someone else's network.
Jeremy - 22 Jun 2004 13:14 GMT
> > Transparent.  Hassle-free.  Not perfect, but well ahead of the competition.
> > And no burden placed on the customer to "know" anything about how the
> > network operated.  Just turn on your phone and dial.
>
> Too bad the new AT&T wont be able to do any of that since they are using
> someone else's network.

They may have roaming policies that are quite different from Sprint's.  They
wouldn't be expected to be just another Sprint clone.  And they surely have
learned from their past mistakes.

I anticipate their making efforts to differentiate themselves from other
vendors in the marketplace.  Only time will tell.
R?bert M. - 22 Jun 2004 14:44 GMT
> > > Transparent.  Hassle-free.  Not perfect, but well ahead of the
> competition.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> wouldn't be expected to be just another Sprint clone.  And they surely have
> learned from their past mistakes.

What gives you any basis for saying that?

> I anticipate their making efforts to differentiate themselves from other
> vendors in the marketplace.

That would be prudent, but whether they do it by Advertising or by any
Real Physical Difference remains to be seen.

> Only time will tell.
Joseph - 22 Jun 2004 15:50 GMT
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:06:09 GMT, "Røbert M." <rmarkoff@faq.cIty>
wrote:

>> Transparent.  Hassle-free.  Not perfect, but well ahead of the competition.
>> And no burden placed on the customer to "know" anything about how the
>> network operated.  Just turn on your phone and dial.
>
>Too bad the new AT&T wont be able to do any of that since they are using
>someone else's network.

Huh?  What are you talking about?  Just because they are a virtual
network doesn't mean that any connections on the network cannot be
handled by another network and the user doesn't have to know any of
that and can just dial and their call will be processed.  Whether it's
charged as on network or off network is another matter entirely, but
they don't have to do anything "special" to have their call processed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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R??bert M. - 22 Jun 2004 16:20 GMT
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:06:09 GMT, "R??bert M." <rmarkoff@faq.cIty>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> charged as on network or off network is another matter entirely, but
> they don't have to do anything "special" to have their call processed.

Fine but they are subject to all the "wierdnesses" of the SprintPCS
Network, like tower reconfigurations, or unscheduled maintenance.
Steven J Sobol - 22 Jun 2004 16:26 GMT
In alt.cellular.sprintpcs "R??bert M." <rmarkoff@faq.city> wrote:

> Fine but they are subject to all the "wierdnesses" of the SprintPCS
> Network, like tower reconfigurations, or unscheduled maintenance.

I'm sure you can present examples of some of those issues, Mr. I-Can't-
Stand-Sprint-Or-AT&T. Why don't you?

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Carl Keehn - 24 Jun 2004 12:23 GMT
Strange, they're doing it now with ATT One.  ATT is leasing back the AWE
TDMA network to offer their own wireless long distance bundles in selected
areas.  The coverage area is AWE national network.  As Jeremy suggested, we
just dial and talk.  I would guess that the success ATT has had with ATT One
is one of the factors that encourages them to get back into wireless
service.

Carl

> > Transparent.  Hassle-free.  Not perfect, but well ahead of the competition.
> > And no burden placed on the customer to "know" anything about how the
> > network operated.  Just turn on your phone and dial.
>
> Too bad the new AT&T wont be able to do any of that since they are using
> someone else's network.
Jeremy - 24 Jun 2004 16:50 GMT
> Strange, they're doing it now with ATT One.  ATT is leasing back the AWE
> TDMA network to offer their own wireless long distance bundles in selected
> areas.  The coverage area is AWE national network.  As Jeremy suggested, we
> just dial and talk.  I would guess that the success ATT has had with ATT One
> is one of the factors that encourages them to get back into wireless
> service.

I read in today's paper that AT&T Long Distance will no longer be marketed
in several states, because the regulatory fees make it impossible for AT&T
to be competitive.  Those customers that have ATTLD can keep it, but no new
ones will be accepted.

Who ever thought it would come to that?

One of the analysts commented that AT&T was hampered by not having a
wireless service.  That is where the future profits are.  I also read that
Sprint was getting rid of a large number of jobs at their long distance
arm--half of them at their HQs in Kansas City.

I do not recall seeing many ads for long distance services over the past
year.  Remember Reach Out America, MCI Calling Circles, Sprint 5-cents
plans, etc?  Where are they now?

It looks like the action in Long Distance will be with the upcoming cable
company entrance into the market.  Comcast, my digital cable company in
Philadelphia, recently announced that they would be competing for customers'
business for local and long distance services.  They already offer broadband
that they claim is 3 times faster than the phone company's DSL service.
They have upgraded cable in Philly to fiber optic, and they can even offer
"On Demand" programming, where I can watch a program when I want--it is sent
directly to me, not to everyone along the cable line.  They have announced
that they will be offering a cable version of home recording shortly.
Customers can program their system to "record" anything they want, up to 30
hours' worth, and they can play it back when it is convenient.  No snowy VHS
picture--the on-demand function is as clear as a bell.

Still, I feel sorry for AT&T, for having lost their footing in this market.
They spent a century wiring America up, and it took only 20 years for every
interloper to harvest the profits from AT&Ts work.

Now we have competition, and all we do is to compare prices and coverage
maps, trying to figure out which solution is best for us . . . Sometimes I
wish we didn't have to be communications experts.
Steven J Sobol - 24 Jun 2004 18:37 GMT
In alt.cellular.sprintpcs Jeremy <jeremy@nospam.thanks.com> wrote:

> I do not recall seeing many ads for long distance services over the past
> year.  Remember Reach Out America, MCI Calling Circles, Sprint 5-cents
> plans, etc?  Where are they now?

They're not. SBC, Verizon, AT&T and MCI now offer unlimited local, local
toll and long-distance service with discounts available for ancillary services.
Actually, so does Sprint.

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John S. - 24 Jun 2004 19:03 GMT
>I read in today's paper that AT&T Long Distance will no longer be marketed
>in several states, because the regulatory fees make it impossible for AT&T
>to be competitive.  Those customers that have ATTLD can keep it, but no new
>ones will be accepted.

What paper? This sounds more like a troll for arguments than truth.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Jeremy - 24 Jun 2004 19:10 GMT
> >I read in today's paper that AT&T Long Distance will no longer be marketed
> >in several states, because the regulatory fees make it impossible for AT&T
> >to be competitive.  Those customers that have ATTLD can keep it, but no new
> >ones will be accepted.
>
> What paper? This sounds more like a troll for arguments than truth.

Perhaps, if you have a question, you should ask it without making
disparaging suggestions that I am a troll.

The article is in the business section of today's Philadelphia Inquirer.  It
is probably a wire service article, and appears in many newspapers across
the US.

Don't ask me any more questions about the article, because I am adding you
to my killfile.  People that make comments like the one that you made only
serve to disrupt newsgroups, not add anything of value to them.
Ed Swierk - 24 Jun 2004 20:21 GMT
> What paper? This sounds more like a troll for arguments than truth.

http://news.google.com/news?q=at%26t+states

--Ed

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Ed Swierk
eswierk-nospam@cs.stanford.edu

John S. - 25 Jun 2004 15:02 GMT
>> What paper? This sounds more like a troll for arguments than truth.
>
>http://news.google.com/news?q=at%26t+states

Thanks Ed. But the article says nothing about long distance service - it says
"Phone Service" meaning your local Exchange carrier (LEC).

I have always thought that it was silly to offer competing LEC type services
because you either had to charge more because you are leasing the last mile or
putting in your own - both very expensive situations.

AT&T is a log distance carrier and I am sure wil continue to offer Long
Distance to anyone who wants their service.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Jeremy - 25 Jun 2004 17:18 GMT
"John S." <sexyexotiche@aol.comspamfree> wrote in message >
> AT&T is a log distance carrier and I am sure wil continue to offer Long
> Distance to anyone who wants their service.

According to the newspaper article, it will not market residential long
distance in 7 states.  That was the factor that made it newsworthy in the
first place.
John S. - 25 Jun 2004 19:54 GMT
>According to the newspaper article, it will not market residential long
>distance in 7 states.  That was the factor that made it newsworthy in the
>first place.

The article I read said residential phone service - a BIG difference from Long
Distance service.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
David L - 01 Jul 2004 12:02 GMT
> >According to the newspaper article, it will not market residential long
> >distance in 7 states.  That was the factor that made it newsworthy in the
> >first place.
>
> The article I read said residential phone service - a BIG difference from Long
> Distance service.

As I put together the pieces...
ATT is no longer able to lease local access at a discount. The FCC
ruled local carriers no longer have to lease to competitors at the
previous discount. That makes it too expensive for ATT to compete with
the ILECs in those seven states.

In trying to underdstand why ATT went from the revolutionary leader of
One Rate wireless and multinetwork cellular phones, into a SPCS
reseller, I remembered what a telco guy told me... something like,
it's not the network, it's setting up a working billing system.
Besides missing the future revenue wave (a real shame because they
were so far ahead of the game) by promoting a system incapable of
data. ATT seems to have given up even owning a wireless network and is
choosing to focus on the billing, CS side and may still be ableto find
a profitable niche. It's a lot less risky and less expensive with the
need to convert to a new GSM standard. BTW, last week Cingular just
completed its GSM conversion.

Remember, ATT and all the other LD carriers almost went broke,
competing with the fictitious Worldcom LD business model. Wasn't that
the reason they had to sell off their wireless jewel, ATTWS, to
recover costs from competing with Worldcom?
Jeremy - 01 Jul 2004 16:53 GMT
> BTW, last week Cingular just
> completed its GSM conversion.

Can you explain "completed" their GSM conversion?  Does that mean that they
have GSM on every tower?
David L - 02 Jul 2004 01:41 GMT
> > BTW, last week Cingular just
> > completed its GSM conversion.
>
> Can you explain "completed" their GSM conversion?  Does that mean that they
> have GSM on every tower?

Cingular Completes GSM Overlay, Accelerates WCDMA Plans (Phone Scoop)

http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=895

Source:   Wireless Week

"Cingular this week provided a complete status update on its 3G
migration. Last weekend, the company completed the deployment of GSM
technology over its entire network coverage area. Also, taking full
advantage of additional spectrum from its planned acquisition of AT&T
Wireless, the company last week issued a formal request for proposals
(RFP) to supply WCDMA (UMTS) equipment to upgrade its entire network.
The RFP includes HSDPA, an upgraded version of WCDMA - sometimes
referred to as "3.5G" - that delivers data rates up to 14.4 Mbps. The
RFP also includes WCDMA in the 850 MHz band, which will allow the
company to move its entire spectrum and network to WCDMA technology,
including rural areas. The company aims launch the first areas in
2005, with the entire upgrade to be completed in 2006..."
Joseph - 01 Jul 2004 17:33 GMT
>Remember, ATT and all the other LD carriers almost went broke,
>competing with the fictitious Worldcom LD business model. Wasn't that
>the reason they had to sell off their wireless jewel, ATTWS, to
>recover costs from competing with Worldcom?

I don't know if anyone went broke due to Worldcom, but consider that
revenues in general for long distance are miniscule compared to what
they were even 10 years ago.  It costs more to do the billing for long
distance than the actual cost to haul the traffic.  Why do you think
that the majority of mobile providers include long distance with the
majority of their plans?  It's not out of the goodness of their
hearts.  It's because it's so cheap to do it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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XFF - 22 Jun 2004 04:46 GMT
> > Until very recently, when ATTWS began to use the phrase "GSM" in
> > advertising, their literature has always avoided specific terms and
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> And no burden placed on the customer to "know" anything about how the
> network operated.  Just turn on your phone and dial.

Acutally, the nationwide transparent roam concept was introduced by
McCaw Cellular, before AT&T bought them out and long before AT&T
Wireless Services existed as a company.
Ron - 24 May 2004 17:13 GMT
Motorala has a new phone that does CDMA and GSM.  Coming out soon

> I need someone to explain this to me. AT&T inked a 5 year deal with
> Sprint PCS to use the Sprint Wireless PCS network for new service it
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> So what might AT&T have up it's sleeve?
R?bert M - 24 May 2004 17:33 GMT
> Motorala has a new phone that does CDMA and GSM.  Coming out soon

Yes, designed for Verizon to be used with Vodaphone GSM in Europe.
 
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