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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / April 2008

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simple GPS lat/lon display?

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P.Schuman - 02 Apr 2008 04:01 GMT
If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
to be used later by standard GPS units.
Signature

----------------------------------
"If everything seems to be going well,
you have obviously overlooked something." - Steven Wright

Larry - 02 Apr 2008 04:19 GMT
"P.Schuman" <pschuman_no_spam_me@interserv.com> wrote in news:AGCIj.23247
$0o7.3203@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net:

> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
> I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
> to be used later by standard GPS units.

SURELY YOU JEST!!

SELLphone companies letting you see data from what you bought WITHOUT
PAYING SELLPHONE COMPANIES?!!

BITE YOUR TONGUE.....and open your wallet!

(in my best British accent) NEVAH!........(c;
D - 03 Apr 2008 02:57 GMT
>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>to be used later by standard GPS units.

GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....
The Bob - 03 Apr 2008 03:47 GMT
>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
> triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....

Actually, some phones do have GPS and do not rely on triangulation.

And your post highlights something that I find interesting.  GPS is the
acronym for "Global Positioning Satellite."  Therefore, in order to offer
GPS as a service, a unit would need to communicate with satellites.  
Anything else is simply a locator service, and is advertised as such.
George - 03 Apr 2008 12:19 GMT
>> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> GPS on cell phones is not based on the satalites in orbit, rather they
> triangulate off the towers. It isn't a true GPS....

Actually some do use that as part of the solution.

The problem with this question is that the OP cross posted to every
cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
they use.
Jack Hamilton - 04 Apr 2008 05:12 GMT
>>> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>cellular group without specifying what carrier they use and what phone
>they use.

And yet no one has answered the question for any phone or any carrier.
Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program.  Does GPS return
lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?
News - 04 Apr 2008 12:16 GMT
>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program.  Does GPS return
> lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?

The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of carrier.
Roger 2008 - 04 Apr 2008 14:28 GMT
> >>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> >>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The HP iPaq hw65**/67**/69** GPS radio outputs NMEA 0183 Geographic
> Latitude and Longitude (GLL) format coordinates, independent of carrier.

I believe that pretty much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183"
protocol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMEA_0183

Even the Garmin Mobile 10, a BT GPS uses "NMEA 0183."

More info on the "Protocol" used by the "Garmin Mobile 10":
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/store/assets/pdfs/010-00579-00/garminmobile10_0706.pdf

But the Garmin Mobile 10 will change it's protocol when used with Garmin
Mobile XT software and it takes a power cycle to return it to using "NMEA
0183."  BTW I learned that from a tech at Garmin.

That means that other programs that expect "NMEA 0183" like "Google Maps for
Mobile" will not work with the "Garmin Mobile 10" after using it with the
"Garmin Mobile XT" software until you cycle power on the device.
News - 04 Apr 2008 13:55 GMT
>>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> I believe that pretty much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183"
> protocol.

But they're not all cell phones, are they?
Roger 2008 - 04 Apr 2008 16:26 GMT
> >>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> >>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> But they're not all cell phones, are they?

If you know of a "cell phone" that takes "map applications" like the
original poster was asking about and does *not* use "NMEA 0183" protocol
then let me know about it.

Until then I will repeat myself as having posted: "I believe that pretty
much every GPS out there uses the "NMEA 0183" protocol.

TNX
News - 04 Apr 2008 15:40 GMT
>>>>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> TNX

Sure, repeat at will.  Regardless of context.

The question, cross-posted to numerous cell phone provider newsgroups,
about E911 a cell phone location matter, was:

"Does GPS return lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?"

The reply was yes, GPS does return GLL.  Further, that on the hw-series
iPaq PocketPC GSM phones, it will do so, even without a SIM installed.

"TNX", yourself.  Check that DST problem, too.
Roger 2008 - 04 Apr 2008 17:29 GMT
> >>>>>>>>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> >>>>>>>>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> "Does GPS return lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?"

Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
asked:
"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.

The original poster also stated:
"I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
to be used later by standard GPS units."

It sounded like he was interested in "geocaching."  That is basically just a
way to say where something is via long/lat and there are all sorts of sites
about "geocaching" on the internet.

FYI I'm not really interested in taking up a debate about secondary
questions on this thread that doesn't answer the original poster since I too
am looking for the same thing the original poster is.

TNX
Gordon Burditt - 04 Apr 2008 19:58 GMT
>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>asked:
>"can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?"

For some cell phone implementation of "GPS" (this one doesn't involve
actual satellites talking to your phone), your position coordinates
are present at the cell towers and somewhere in the offices of Big
Brother, but not on your cell phone.  If a map application can get
your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
and that may cost money.

>The answer to that is "yes" and it is proven by the amount of freeware
>available for PPC/phones that turn GPS data into lat/long.

Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
built in.  I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
few years ago:  it never managed to talk to the satellites because
of one of (a) office building roof, (b) parking garage roof, or (c)
car roof was in the way most of the time, and the coordinates didn't
update for several days.  That phone permitted me to display the
coordinates on the screen, along with some info about how many
satellites were visible.  This seems to be what the OP is looking
for.  I doubt that particular phone model is still sold, but
user-visible GPS is still likely available on some phones.

On my current phone (Motorola RAZR V3 with T-Mobile), I don't think
the feature is available.  This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).

The standard communication protocol for GPS information is NMEA
0183.  It specifies a record format, which might not be used in,
say, a Java application running ON the phone (there is more likely
to be a Java call like GetMyGPSCoords() which returns lat/long,
altitude, and time, and maybe speed and compass heading and some
indication whether it's a good fix.  If, internally, there is a GPS
chip delivering a NMEA 0183 data stream, it may be available in a
friendlier format), and the data contained in individual fields,
which among other things includes lat/long in degrees, minutes, and
fractions of minutes.

"Conversion" to lat/long is unlikely to be much of an issue, since
that's how it's delivered, unless you like your lat/long as degrees
and fractions of degrees, or degrees, minutes, seconds, and fractions
of seconds, and in this case, it's fairly simple and straightforward
math.

>The original poster also stated:
>"I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>way to say where something is via long/lat and there are all sorts of sites
>about "geocaching" on the internet.

It can also be useful for letting a tow truck find you when your
car is broken down at night along a highway with few visible
landmarks, or trying to get the whole family back together at an
amusement park.  But yes, I'll agree with an interpretation that
the OP was interested in geocaching.

>FYI I'm not really interested in taking up a debate about secondary
>questions on this thread that doesn't answer the original poster since I too
>am looking for the same thing the original poster is.
Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Apr 2008 20:24 GMT
>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> the feature is available.  This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
> for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).

My Verizon Wireless RAZR V3m claims GPS capability.  I don't think you
get displays of satellite positions or latitude and longitude but you
can get software for it that will prompt to "turn left at the next
intersection".  Like everything else, I think the software is an extra
cost item.

The RAZR V3m allows you to install a "Micro SD Trans Flash" memory card
which you can use to store photographs, audio recordings, etc, etc.  You
can't, AFAIK, store them there directly but you can move then to the
Trans Flash card.  I have a 1GB card in my phone right now.  I think I
paid something like $15 US for it.  The other nice thing is that you can
get a USB "reader" for these cards which allows you to remove the card
from your camera, plug it into the adapter, the adapter into your
computer and you can copy pictures or audio recordings into your
computer.  If you are so inclined you could probably copy music from
your computer to the trans flash card, install the card in your phone
and use it to play the music.
Dutch - 04 Apr 2008 20:36 GMT
While dumping the
alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
bit bucket, I heard Richard B. Gilbert say:

>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> your computer to the trans flash card, install the card in your phone
> and use it to play the music.

I regularly move photos, mp3's, etc, back and forth to my V3m's flash
card without removing it. Depending on which computer I'm using, I do it
with either BlueTooth or a USB cable. The free "BitPIM" utility is also
handy for working with files for the phone...

Signature

Dutch

Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Apr 2008 22:57 GMT
> While dumping the
> alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> with either BlueTooth or a USB cable. The free "BitPIM" utility is also
> handy for working with files for the phone...

Do you have a "Verizon Wireless" phone?  The RAZR V3, as manufactured,
has the capability but Verizon Wireless disables it.  You can reenable
it at the cost of voiding your warranty!

I bought the phone in order to be able to call for help if I happened to
need the police, fire department, an ambulance, a tow truck, etc.  Once
I got my contact list into the phone using Motorola Phone Tools, I was
pretty much done.  The camera, ability to play music, games, video are
of little or no interest.  I took one "test" picture, managed to
transfer it to my computer via the trans flash card, and then deleted
the file.
Dutch - 04 Apr 2008 23:39 GMT
While dumping the
alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
bit bucket, I heard Richard B. Gilbert say:

>> While dumping the
>> alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
>> bit bucket, I heard Richard B. Gilbert say:

[...]
>>>>Some phones (and PDAs) have a real GPS that listens to satellites
>>>>built in.  I suspect that includes a Nextel phone I was testing a
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> transfer it to my computer via the trans flash card, and then deleted
> the file.

Nope, I have Sprint's version of the V3m. Sorry about that, I forgot
this was cross-posting to multiple groups.

Signature

Dutch

Dutch - 04 Apr 2008 20:27 GMT
While dumping the
alt.cellular.verizon,alt.cellular.sprintpcs,alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.t-mobile,alt.cellular.attws
bit bucket, I heard Gordon Burditt say:

>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> the feature is available.  This phone doesn't have a lot of memory
> for apps or maps, either (about 3 meg).
[...]

My Sprint RAZR V3m does have the full GPS via satellite capability that
the earlier V3 models were lacking. It works perfectly with the free
"Mobile GMaps" utility...

Signature

Dutch

Roger 2008 - 05 Apr 2008 01:13 GMT
> >Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
> >asked:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> your position at all, it has to ask your cell provider to send it,
> and that may cost money.

Oh yeah, now that you mention it.  My first camera phone called it GPS but
when you read further about it, it was just using cell phone towers.

BTW I have met a person with an iPHONE that thinks his phone has GPS and he
even showed me "Google Maps for Mobile" on it.

I thought he had a messed up GPS reading because it had us way across the
street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."
Richard B. Gilbert - 05 Apr 2008 02:12 GMT
>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> street and then I learned later the iPHONE uses cell phone towers for an
> approximate location on "Google Maps for Mobile."

GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
about 300 feet or 100 meters.  I once did a "site survey" using a
Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver.  The software I used plotted
something like 10,000 position readings on the map.  The result was a
strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW.  My
antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.

The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting.  This level of GPS is
available only to the military and certain defense contractors.  Us
lowly civilians can't get it.

As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
direction your signal is coming from.
D - 05 Apr 2008 03:37 GMT
>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
>direction your signal is coming from.

Towers cannot tell what direction the signal is coming from, but can
tell from relative power how far away it is, and form a circle based
on that reading.   For sake of argument, say you are 3 miles from
tower one, and 5 miles from tower two.   there are only two places you
can be 3 milies and 5 miles from the towers.   Add a third tower, and
you only have one place you can be.   That is how triangulation (hence
the tri - three) works.
Richard B. Gilbert - 05 Apr 2008 13:40 GMT
>>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>>>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> you only have one place you can be.   That is how triangulation (hence
> the tri - three) works.  

I suspect that this technique would yield an uncertainty of position
that is far greater than that inherent in GPS.  For one thing, the
relative signal strength depends on more than distance!
Dutch - 05 Apr 2008 13:53 GMT
>>>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>>>>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> that is far greater than that inherent in GPS.  For one thing, the
> relative signal strength depends on more than distance!

Yes, the single tower strength method is inherently inaccurate. It is
however better than only knowing which tower a handset is using, the
least accurate, and previously the only method of locating someone
that's lost. Modern GPS/WAAS is by far the most accurate, but the other
methods do have their place as a backup when GPS is not available for
one reason or another...

Signature

Dutch

Roger 2008 - 05 Apr 2008 14:46 GMT
> >>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
> >>>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> you only have one place you can be.   That is how triangulation (hence
> the tri - three) works.

With no disrespect for the poster that started this thread then how does VOR
for airplanes work from one transmitting site?

More on VOR can be found at:
http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/nav/rad_nav_overview.htm

But the above site doesn't come right out and say if they use more than one
transmitting tower to get VOR to work.

I have been under the assumption that since most cellphone towers have three
elements that the cellphone knew that it was 1 of 3 directions away from the
tower but now it seems there is nothing VOR related in cell phone towers.
George - 05 Apr 2008 14:23 GMT
>>>>>> Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:
> He
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> With no disrespect for the poster that started this thread then how does VOR
> for airplanes work from one transmitting site?

Not the OP but VOR is a positioning system by design. You can establish
a LOP because your VOR receiver measures the phase difference of the 0
deg reference signal and the rotating signal from the station. That
phase difference is the radial you are on and what the VOR receiver
displays. To further enhance things they often colocate DME at the VOR
site. An additional unit in the airplane sends an interrogation to the
ground station which then replies. The airborne unit uses the transit
time to deduce its distance from the station.

> More on VOR can be found at:
> http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/nav/rad_nav_overview.htm
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> elements that the cellphone knew that it was 1 of 3 directions away from the
> tower but now it seems there is nothing VOR related in cell phone towers.
Gordon Burditt - 05 Apr 2008 03:50 GMT
>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>about 300 feet or 100 meters.  I once did a "site survey" using a
>Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver.  The software I used plotted
>something like 10,000 position readings on the map.  The result was a
>strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW.  My
>antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.

There's also something called Differential GPS, which uses a transmitter
on the ground to broadcast corrections.  That supposedly improves
the reading, if and where a DGPS transmitter is available.

>The military uses a different set of signals from the same satellite and
>gets accurracy good enough for weapons targeting.  This level of GPS is
>available only to the military and certain defense contractors.  Us
>lowly civilians can't get it.

I thought this involved mostly the same signals, except that there
are deliberately introduced small errors in the (civilian) signal,
and the military can use a special encrypted transmission that
identifies the errors (so they can be corrected for).

It is also my understanding that in broad areas (e.g. the Middle
East) the errors (Selective Availability, or SA) can be turned on
or shut off by the military.  There was a shutoff around May 1,
2000 but I don't know whether it has been turned on since then.

I believe it's also possible to get military-precision positioning
by doing long-term averaging of position readings from a fixed
point.  The military doesn't consider this to be much of a problem
as using GPS to guide a bomb carried by someone on foot stopping
for an hour every few meters to get a new position reading isn't
very practical.

>As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
>direction your signal is coming from.

But I think it does have a way of determining distance (e.g. ping
time).  With 3 sufficiently separated cell towers, you can determine
a point (and get an estimate of your accuracy).  Actually, 2
sufficiently separated cell towers give you two points, and if
you're tracking a moving target across several cell towers, that
might be enough.
AZ Nomad - 05 Apr 2008 20:46 GMT
>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.  I once did a "site survey" using a
>>Motorola M12+T GPS timing receiver.  The software I used plotted
>>something like 10,000 position readings on the map.  The result was a
>>strip about 10 meters wide and 100 meters long and oriented ENE-SSW.  My
>>antenna was more or less in the middle of this mess.

>There's also something called Differential GPS, which uses a transmitter
>on the ground to broadcast corrections.  That supposedly improves
>the reading, if and where a DGPS transmitter is available.

It was a bigger deal when consumer GPS had a built in 200' error.

I worked on a differential GPS system used by a local phone company to track
their service trucks.  The error from a fixed unit was subtracted from the
mobile units to remove their error.  Apparantently, the 200' error was the
same over a large region.
clifto - 05 Apr 2008 23:03 GMT
> I worked on a differential GPS system used by a local phone company to track
> their service trucks.  The error from a fixed unit was subtracted from the
> mobile units to remove their error.  Apparantently, the 200' error was the
> same over a large region.

It's surprising. For a while there was a DGPS server on the net. I was using
DGPS data from other parts of the country and getting more accurate fixes
(as compared to time-averaged position fixes).

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Roger 2008 - 05 Apr 2008 03:54 GMT
> >>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
> >>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
> direction your signal is coming from.

I was under the impression that a cell phone could tell it was in 3
different areas around a cell tower but after reading the following I am
inclined to agree with you:

"Microsoft, Sprint & Cell Tower Triangulation"

Microsoft has teamed with Sprint to roll out a new location-based Live
Search function on many of their high-end phones.  Since the new service
doesn't take advantage of GPS, it opens up the use to almost any phone on
Sprint's network.

When a user logs onto to Windows Mobile Live Search to do any type of search
for businesses, or address, etc. the service takes into account the user's
location by pinging nearby cellular towers using a technology known as
"cellular tower triangulation."  By determining how long it takes to ping
certain towers, the phone can know within a few meters where it is at any
time.

While triangulation has been around forever, and mainly used for E911 uses,
it's finally slowly making it's way into other useful consumer applications.
Utilizing it for mobile search was the next logical step, not only for
consumer use, but for advertising as well.

Above found at:
http://blogs.movamedia.com/tech/2008/03/24/microsoft-sprint-cell-tower-triangulation/

-----

You know what the above means?  It means if you have T-mobile or AT&T you
have to use "Google Maps for Mobile" for "Tower Triangulation" and if you
have Sprint you will have to use Microsoft "Live Search."

One more thing.  The above states "but for advertising as well."  ugh.

-----

My apologies to the poster that started this thread since it has ended up
discussing "Cell Tower Triangulation" but I think you might find some
freeware that does what you want and I plan to look more for something
"simple" with GPS lat/long myself.
Dutch - 05 Apr 2008 03:54 GMT
>>>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
>>>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> available only to the military and certain defense contractors.  Us
> lowly civilians can't get it.

The US government dropped the "Selective Availability"  accuracy
degrading function from the GPS signals in 2000. Standard civilian GPS
units are now accurate to within about 50 feet on average. Newer units
with WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) capability, originally
developed for air navigation, are accurate to within 10 feet or better.

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/FGCS/info/sans_SA/docs/statement.html

> As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
> direction your signal is coming from.

By triangulating signals from three towers, the location can be
determined fairly accurately. Obviously, there must be at least three
towers within range for it to work. Other methods use one or more towers
and time based signals to determine locations with varying degrees of
accuracy.

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Dutch

Kurt - 06 Apr 2008 00:11 GMT
> >>>Please do not forget who the original poster was and his questions:  He
> >>>asked:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> As far as I know, a cell phone tower has no means of determining the
> direction your signal is coming from.

It's been changed for a few years, now more like 15 meters. Clinton was
the one that changed that.

There is supposedly a new civilian GPS system in the works, one that
uses more satellites and with technolgy that allows for obstructed views.
Also supposed to be far more

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clifto - 06 Apr 2008 18:00 GMT
>> GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>> about 300 feet or 100 meters.
>
> It's been changed for a few years, now more like 15 meters. Clinton was
> the one that changed that.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/faq/gpsfaq.htm#Standard

SPS provides accuracy's of (for position, the accuracy with respect to
geographic, or geodetic coordinates of the Earth) within:
100 meters (2 drms) horizontal 156 meters (2 Sigma) vertical 300 meters
(99.99% prob.) horizontal 340 nanoseconds time (95% prob.)

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News - 06 Apr 2008 21:14 GMT
>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> 100 meters (2 drms) horizontal 156 meters (2 Sigma) vertical 300 meters
> (99.99% prob.) horizontal 340 nanoseconds time (95% prob.)

"What is the status of Selective Availability (SA)?

Effective as of Midnight 01 May 2000, Selective Availability has been set to
zero."

"THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release May 1, 2000

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT REGARDING THE UNITED STATES' DECISION TO STOP
DEGRADING GLOBAL POSITIONING SYSTEM ACCURACY

Today, I am pleased to announce that the United States will stop the
intentional degradation of the Global Positioning System (GPS) signals
available to the public beginning at midnight tonight. We call this
degradation feature Selective Availability (SA). This will mean that
civilian users of GPS will be able to pinpoint locations up to ten times
more accurately than they do now. ..."
David - 06 Apr 2008 22:17 GMT
>>>> GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to
>>>> within about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> civilian users of GPS will be able to pinpoint locations up to ten times
> more accurately than they do now. ..."
My Garmin GPS routinely gets accuracy to within 13 - 15 _feet_.  A
freind with the same GPS often gets down to 6 feet, although he's on the
east coast and I'm in the upper midwest.  - David
News - 06 Apr 2008 22:29 GMT
>>>>> GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to
>>>>> within about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> freind with the same GPS often gets down to 6 feet, although he's on the
> east coast and I'm in the upper midwest.  - David

Same with my HP iPaq hw6515, and GlobalLocate A-GPS accelerates time to
3-D fix.
clifto - 07 Apr 2008 03:09 GMT
> My Garmin GPS routinely gets accuracy to within 13 - 15 _feet_.  A
> freind with the same GPS often gets down to 6 feet, although he's on the
> east coast and I'm in the upper midwest.  - David

My GPS III+ does at least that well most times. Note that the government
doesn't guarantee our GPSes will always be that good.

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clifto - 07 Apr 2008 03:07 GMT
>>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> "What is the status of Selective Availability (SA)?

What does SA have to do with the 2008 accuracy specification I posted?

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Richard B. Gilbert - 07 Apr 2008 03:41 GMT
>>>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> What does SA have to do with the 2008 accuracy specification I posted?

IIRC, SA encrypted the low order bits in order to prevent GPS being used
for weapons targeting and other anti-social behavior.
clifto - 07 Apr 2008 23:26 GMT
>>>>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> IIRC, SA encrypted the low order bits in order to prevent GPS being used
> for weapons targeting and other anti-social behavior.

That's true, but Clinton shut it off in 2001 and it hasn't been a problem
for nearly seven years now.

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Dennis Ferguson - 08 Apr 2008 00:13 GMT
>>>>>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>>>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> That's true, but Clinton shut it off in 2001 and it hasn't been a problem
> for nearly seven years now.

Sure, but no one in the government said they wouldn't turn it back on if
they felt like it which is why their SPS accuracy claims still always
include the effects of SA.

In fact the paragraph just above the accuracy specifications you quoted
says, in part,

 "The SPS accuracy specifications, given below, include the effects of SA."

which, I guess, is what SA has to do with the 2008 accuracy specification
you posted.

Dennis Ferguson
News - 08 Apr 2008 01:45 GMT
>>>>>>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>>>>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Dennis Ferguson

Bingo.
Dutch - 08 Apr 2008 02:31 GMT
>>>>>>>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>>>>>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Bingo.

Except that the specs they show are with the old SA settings, not the
current zero setting.

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Dutch

News - 08 Apr 2008 02:51 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>GPS, or at least the civilian version of it, is only accurate to within
>>>>>>>>>>about 300 feet or 100 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Except that the specs they show are with the old SA settings, not the
> current zero setting.

Correct, which voids the OP's accuracy and error probabilities.
Larry - 08 Apr 2008 03:41 GMT
> Correct, which voids the OP's accuracy and error probabilities.

With the zero setting, and the fix not moving around constantly, the
accuracy of GPS is most dependent on having a clear view of the majority of
the satellites with minimal multipath propagation caused by high buildings,
bridges, mountains, towers and anything else reflecting the incoming
signal.

In a clear parking lot, with more than 6 satellites in direct view, it will
place the GPS in its location in a single parking space with no multipath
in flat country.  In city canyons of high rise buildings where the actual
direct view of the sky is only a few degrees in most directions, you're
lucky if it stops going crazy in the area of the whole aforementioned
parking lot at the mall.  It'll be all over the place as you move around,
even walking and really screwing it with multipath going in a dozen
directions at once.

GPS is very dependent on TIMING, the time it takes the signal to get from
the precisely transmitting bird to your receiver's fixed delay.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gps.htm
This website does a great job, in a series of sections, to show how GPS
works and that TIMING is EVERYTHING in the GPS system.  The text is nicely
detailed without becoming the math monster of spherical trig the scientific
websites quickly become.  Just take the calculations for granted.

It's really quite neat how the cheap GPS gets an atomic reference clock for
free (displaying it on your screen, quite handily).

To really see what TIMING means to your GPS accuracy with awful multipath
making the paths from the birds go crazy, just take your GPS mapping box
into an open restaurant with a metal roof to block out the direct signals
and large windows on at least 2 sides so the signals can bounce around off
the traffic, buildings, etc., the GPS can see through the window.  Move
away from the windows far enough so you cannot see the sky from your table.  
Sit, eat, and watch the crazy patterns of a system gone mad.....
Dutch - 08 Apr 2008 04:16 GMT
>> Correct, which voids the OP's accuracy and error probabilities.
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> away from the windows far enough so you cannot see the sky from your table.  
> Sit, eat, and watch the crazy patterns of a system gone mad.....

That's where "assisted GPS" (aGPS), as used on many cell phones like my
V3m helps out. By getting much of the satellite data via the cell signal
using data from the tower's GPS, the accuracy is enhanced, even within
buildings or other situations where the sat signals are partially
obstructed. Your location is also pinpointed much faster, since a lot of
the computations are handled by external computers instead of in the
handset. It's still much more accurate outside in the clear of course...

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Dutch

clifto - 08 Apr 2008 14:03 GMT
> In fact the paragraph just above the accuracy specifications you quoted
> says, in part,
>
>   "The SPS accuracy specifications, given below, include the effects of SA."

Missed that. Cranial flatulence. Thanks.

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George - 04 Apr 2008 13:02 GMT
>>>> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>>>> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Perhaps someone will have to write a custom program.  Does GPS return
> lat/lon, or does it use some other location scheme?

Its way to vague of a question since there are multiple schemes and
multiple devices with different feature sets.
Evan Platt - 03 Apr 2008 14:48 GMT
>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>to be used later by standard GPS units.

Depends on your phone. My Blackjack II, yes. Your phone? Who knows.
John Navas - 03 Apr 2008 16:22 GMT
>If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
>can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
>I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
>to be used later by standard GPS units.

What phone?  What carrier?
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Roger 2008 - 04 Apr 2008 09:54 GMT
> If I enable the GPS location ON vs just have E911
> can I display my own LAT/LON values somehow without a map application ?
> I just want to be able to log specific GPS coords
> to be used later by standard GPS units.

Crossposting left in.

If you have a WM6 PPC/phone with a built in GPS like the Sprint Mogul has
then you mght find something with a "simple GPS lat/long display" here:
http://pocketpcfreewares.com/en/index.php?cat=30&sortby=
 
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