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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / June 2008Technical Specs of iPhone 3G posted
http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html > http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html I clicked on the App Store. Where's the apps??!! I see one little monkey game, there's Twitter and a little map program for the new GPS and the hokey keyboard toy. If you go to the site on an iPhone do you get to see all the new apps they've been working on for months since SDK 1.0 released? I'm shocked this is just ONE page with a couple of "apps". Ebay isn't an app...Ebay is SPAM! Where are all the apps??? > > http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html > > I clicked on the App Store. Where's the apps??!! the store is not yet open. it is expected to open in july, when version 2 firmware is released for the current iphones (required to buy apps) along with the iphone 3g (which ships with v2 firmware). > > http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Where are all the apps??? haven't you even seen the Keynote? until you do, you won't understand much about modern cell phones. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc08/ the store "apps" won't be available until the phone is for sale. what a concept! so july 11th is when you can move up to an iphone. in the meantime, here are 1,737 iphone apps to hold you over... http://www.apple.com/webapps/ David Moyer <meetme@world.com> amazed us all with the following in news:meetme-3C4CD2.19512911062008@dialup-4.167.115.65.Dial1.Houston1.Leve l3.net: >> > http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > haven't you even seen the Keynote? until you do, you won't understand > much about modern cell phones. Modern cell phones have things like true GPS. > > haven't you even seen the Keynote? until you do, you won't understand > > much about modern cell phones. > > Modern cell phones have things like true GPS. and the 1.0 iPhone have the excellent WiFi positioning system via Skyhook, and the 2.0 models have that and true GPS, so if you are indoors or out, an iPhone will work... not so with most Cell Phone GPS systems. apple has the better system, that's for sure... it's just you are jealous, that's all. >> > haven't you even seen the Keynote? until you do, you won't understand >> > much about modern cell phones. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > indoors or out, an iPhone will work... not so with most Cell Phone GPS > systems. No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior to the real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is network dependent on either GSM or wifi. > apple has the better system, that's for sure... it's just you are > jealous, that's all. Better than who, fanboi? > No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior to the > real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is network dependent > on either GSM or wifi. assisted just means it also has WPS, first cell phone to have it. > > apple has the better system, that's for sure... it's just you are > > jealous, that's all. > > Better than who, fanboi? Garmin, TomTom, etc... those companies are now toast... at least in the consumer space. >> No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior to the >> real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is network dependent [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Garmin, TomTom, etc... those companies are now toast... at least in the > consumer space. You are *SUCH* a moron Oxford. You said that about Palm, and RIM when the 1st iPhone came out. The iPhone will *NEVER* have the accuracy, and routing capabilites of a true GPS. There isn't enough romm in it for a properly accurate GPS antenna or GPS chipset. It wont hold a candle to the SIRF III based GPSs. Steve Mackay <steve_mackay@hotmail.com> wrote in news:48513c57$0$31736 $4c368faf@roadrunner.com: > The iPhone will *NEVER* have the accuracy, and routing capabilites of a > true GPS. There isn't enough romm in it for a properly accurate GPS > antenna or GPS chipset. It wont hold a candle to the SIRF III based GPSs. http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/2007/08/27/nokia-ld-4w-now-official/ Here's the replacement for my LD-3W Nokia just came out with. Notice its size in relation to the little suction cup it comes with....much thinner than the LD-3w. There's not enough difference to warrant spending another $100 for it, though. I've never seen a GPS receiver so sensitive and fast as the LD-3w. It's a 12 channel, WAAS-satellite compensated, and the whole front of it is an antenna array with a nice wide aperture. It'll put the car in the exact parking space the blue dot location is in Maemo Mapper with the Virtual Earth Satellite/mapping composite tiles. It's more accurate than my Garmin $900 marine chartplotter! Now it does aeronautical charts....(c; >> No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior >> to the real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is >> network dependent on either GSM or wifi. > > assisted just means it also has WPS, first cell phone to have it. Really? According to Apple: "iPhone 3G finds your location via GPS or by triangulating your position using Wi-Fi and cellular towers." > >> > apple has the better system, that's for sure... it's just you are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Garmin, TomTom, etc... those companies are now toast... at least in > the consumer space. Apple is not better- it will only work when on network. Garmin works everywhere. >>> No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior >>> to the real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "iPhone 3G finds your location via GPS or by triangulating your position > using Wi-Fi and cellular towers." I should clarify my point here- if the iPhone had true GPS, it would have no need for triangulating using networks, which is far less accurate.. >I should clarify my point here- if the iPhone had true GPS, it would have >no need for triangulating using networks, which is far less accurate.. Outdoors, and with a bit of time and additional power, GPS is *far* more accurate. If you're indoors and want an instant response, triangulation is not a bad way to go. > Really? According to Apple: > > "iPhone 3G finds your location via GPS or by triangulating your position > using Wi-Fi and cellular towers." read it carefully. notice the word 'or' in the middle? > Apple is not better- it will only work when on network. Garmin works > everywhere. that's totally false. the gps in the iphone does not require a network connection. if a cell connection is available, it can assist in obtaining a fix (hence the name 'assisted gps'), or if it's not available, then the gps functions as any other gps would, by using the gps satellites. >> Really? According to Apple: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (hence the name 'assisted gps'), or if it's not available, then the > gps functions as any other gps would, by using the gps satellites. GPS does not require assistance. > > if a cell connection is available, it can assist in obtaining a fix > > (hence the name 'assisted gps'), or if it's not available, then the > > gps functions as any other gps would, by using the gps satellites. > > GPS does not require assistance. it doesn't 'require' it, but if there's a cell signal available, some of the info that would normally be sent from the gps satellites can be more reliably obtained from the cell towers, thereby dramatically reducing the time to obtain a fix and/or maintaining a fix in weak signal conditions. <http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/cellulartelecomms/location_servic es/assisted_gps.php> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:120620081711330002% nospam@nospam.invalid: > it doesn't 'require' it, but if there's a cell signal available, some > of the info that would normally be sent from the gps satellites can be > more reliably obtained from the cell towers, thereby dramatically > reducing the time to obtain a fix and/or maintaining a fix in weak > signal conditions. Totally false, a fantasy. The GPS system is ANALOG, based on precise TIMING and the phase relationship between the pulses generated by the birds and the physical position of the receiver antenna. GPS depends on having a DIRECT, unobstructed view from the receiver's antenna to the maximum number of satellites over the horizon. Come see the birds' positions: http://science.nasa.gov/Realtime/jtrack/3d/JTrack3D.html Jtrack is a realtime Java app showing the exact location of every satellite, dead or alive, orbiting the planet. Click and DRAG on it and you'll move it in 3 dimensions. Click on one of the dots and Jtrack will tell you what that bird's name and number is and draw you a 3D track of its orbit. Now, you'll notice very close to the earth, right on the edge of the atmosphere, a cloud of LEO (low earth orbit) satellites like MIR and ISS and the Shuttle if it's orbiting the earth and the Hubble Space Telescope (close to the earth so it can be turned around to point at the planet for fantastic optical spying they won't let you see.) Way out in a ring directly over the plane of the equator are your geosynchronous satellites for DTV, communications, DISH network and the tv systems across the planet around 32,800 miles altitude...FAR FAR AWAY from anything Shuttle is capable of visiting...the reason there's no repair missions. Now, look at the cloud of birds about halfway in between these two orbit clusters. I say cloud because they are all in very high angle orbits to cover the polar regions and are very high in altitude so they remain over your optical/radio horizon for very long periods of times because of their high altitudes. Start clicking on these birds and you'll find a group of military spy satellites, constellations of high polar communications birds and the GPS system birds. When you find a GPS bird in its constellation, note its very high altitude and very high angle orbit, in relation to the equatorial rotation of the planet. This insures there are many of the 24 birds in the constellation over the horizon at any one time. It also makes sure there can be a few outages with no appreciable change in GPS fix accuracy if we lose a few. This orbit also makes it very hard for opposition countries to shoot them down so far up....in spite of what the TV media says. The exact position of every bird is very accurately known. Each bird provides very accurate timing pulses from its cesium-beam frequency standards fed to it from the ground, even with very accurate clock timing. But, from WAY UP THERE, there ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY WAY for ANY sellphone, even iPhones!!!, to receive a GPS signal through RF opaque objects like BUILDINGS or WALLS or SHEET STEEL ROOF PLATES or even a thick canopy of TREES, which absorb what tiny bit of RF that falls on your spot on the planet surface into the noise.... THIS is why Sellphone GPS simply isn't going to work in your pocket anywhere you happen to be.....THAT IS A PURE FANTASY! > > it doesn't 'require' it, but if there's a cell signal available, some > > of the info that would normally be sent from the gps satellites can be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Totally false, a fantasy. actually, it's exactly correct. ...gps info snipped... > The exact position of every bird is very accurately known. Each bird > provides very accurate timing pulses from its cesium-beam frequency [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > thick canopy of TREES, which absorb what tiny bit of RF that falls on > your spot on the planet surface into the noise.... that's where the assistance from the cellular network comes into play. you were paying attention, right? > THIS is why Sellphone GPS simply isn't going to work in your pocket > anywhere you happen to be.....THAT IS A PURE FANTASY! considering that many handheld gps devices work quite well both in a pocket and inside buildings, there is absolutely no reason that a cell phone gps will not function just as well, or better. nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:120620081812490585% nospam@nospam.invalid: > that's where the assistance from the cellular network comes into play. > you were paying attention, right? REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT. SHOW ME THE REFERENCE DOCUMENTS ON GPS INFORMATION FROM THE CELLULAR NETWORK. FCC knows what the lat/long of every cell tower is from the license, but that doesn't pinpoint an iPhone walking down Broadway in NYC in a canyon of buildings on Times Square. LET'S SEE THE REFERENCES....THE REFERENCE DOCUMENTS, NOT STEVIE JOBS' SALESMAN WEBPAGES. >THIS is why Sellphone GPS simply isn't going to work in your pocket >anywhere you happen to be.....THAT IS A PURE FANTASY! The QStar BT-1000 GPS I have works fine in my backpack, or in my pocket. Why couldn't a cell phone do the same? >>THIS is why Sellphone GPS simply isn't going to work in your pocket >>anywhere you happen to be.....THAT IS A PURE FANTASY! > > The QStar BT-1000 GPS I have works fine in my backpack, or in my pocket. > > Why couldn't a cell phone do the same? It can....OUTDOORS. Sellphones are rarely used OUTDOORS. Sellphones are used in the building canyons of the cities. Take your Qstar to downtown any city and watch the fix. Just stand still in one spot and see how far it wanders. >GPS does not require assistance. No, but it sure helps. Compare a warm-start vs a cold-start on any GPS, knowing roughly where you are and having satellite location predownloaded significantly helps the GPS user experience. I'd sure like to know what the iPhone 3G has included, so far I haven't seen anything specifically saying it does or does not have a true GPS receiver. > >GPS does not require assistance. > > No, but it sure helps. Compare a warm-start vs a cold-start on any GPS, > knowing roughly where you are and having satellite location > predownloaded significantly helps the GPS user experience. exactly. > I'd sure like to know what the iPhone 3G has included, so far I haven't > seen anything specifically saying it does or does not have a true GPS > receiver. there will no doubt be disassembly photos a day or two after it ships, if that long. possibly even the same day. >>> Apple is not better- it will only work when on network. Garmin >>> works everywhere. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > GPS does not require assistance. It sounds like you need assistance in grasping this simple concept.  SignatureMike > Apple is not better- it will only work when on network. Garmin works > everywhere. no bob, it will work anywhere... and since it's running OSX you'll have MUCH better software than what comes on a Garmin, TomTom, etc. Your High again. Better quit that stuff. >> Apple is not better- it will only work when on network. Garmin works >> everywhere. > > no bob, it will work anywhere... and since it's running OSX you'll have > MUCH better software than what comes on a Garmin, TomTom, etc. > assisted just means it also has WPS, first cell phone to have it. Um, no. www.navizon.com Navizon was first, offering "WPS" on both Windows Mobile (and eventually jailbroken iPhones) for a few years. They even offered"virtual GPS" softwarethat output the "WPS" data in NMEA GPS format for use with other GPS programs. Another Apple "innovation"- slickly repackaging others' ideas... >Another Apple "innovation"- slickly repackaging others' ideas... It surprises me how often the "threaded SMS" gets touted as an Apple invention. I mean, I realize Palm has squandered their market share, but Palm had this many moons before Apple. > No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior to the > real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is network dependent > on either GSM or wifi. assisted gps is certainly not inferior to the real thing, nor is it dependent on gsm or wifi. assisted gps utilizes information from the cellular network when available to assist in locating the device and obtaining a fix. basically, the cell towers send enough information (ephemeris) for the gps to quickly locate the satellites. outside of cell coverage areas, it works as any gps would, possibly taking a minute or more to get a lock. assisted gps is not only common on mobile phones, but it also exists on handheld gps devices. for example, gps units that use the sirf star iii chipset, such as ones made by garmin and other companies, have assisted gps. it's an enhancement, and a very useful one. David Moyer <meetme@world.com> wrote in news:meetme-C1C712.23394811062008 @news.qwest.net: > and the 1.0 iPhone have the excellent WiFi positioning system via > Skyhook, and the 2.0 models have that and true GPS, so if you are > indoors or out, an iPhone will work... not so with most Cell Phone GPS > systems. Dream.........and the dream comes true.......... Dream.........it's the thing to do.............. (play the song while reading this) GPS DOESN'T WORK INDOORS!.....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.... How can you triangulate from WiFi when you have NO IDEA WHERE THE WIFI BASE IS AND THE WIFI DOESN'T SUPPORT TRIANGULATION?.....Impossible. The phones are, ON PURPOSE, so weak they don't cause more than 1 or two towers to hear them....the reason SELLphone companies keep turning the damned power down...3 watt to 600mw to 300mw to 200mw to 150mw...as the system has more and more SMALL footprint cells turning off the BIG footprint cells the AMPS system used to increase users/sq mi and profits. To triangulate the position of an RF transmitter, you need at LEAST TWO good LOPs (Lines of Position) from TWO separate, KNOWN locations with STEERABLE antennas Sellphone towers DON'T have. A Sellphone tower has 3 PANEL antennas, each covering a little more than 120 degrees. The system can tell you WITHIN 150-170 degrees, which direction a user is in because it can see he's better on antenna 2 than 1 or 3. He's, sort of, THAT WAY> as opposed to ^that way or <that way. Now, if by some magic, we've installed REALLY NEW equipment that can send him out a PULSE and have him RETURN the pulse, which I don't think Sellphone companies have, we could determine how FAR out into this WIDE ARC from the tower he is located, making each sector he's being heard in have a 150 degree ARC of position. IF 3 towers had a good 150 degree ARC at some timed distance, and those arcs intersected, that's where he'd be in OPEN COUNTRY. That fix would be "fairly accurate" IF we knew the EXACT time it took for the cheap Sellphone to turn that pulse around, different for every one, I'm sure. But, alas, he's IN THE CITY where most of the customers are located....in canyons of REFLECTING buildings causing MULTIPATH PROPAGATION DELAYS between this wonderful Supersell and that user. His signal is BOUNCING AROUND off these objects, making any timing-based, TACAN-like pulsing- pulse-returning based system virtually USELESS...because the PATH distance to him is FAR longer than the ACTUAL distance to him, at the speed of light. If you're interested in the TRUTH about the effects of multipath on radio direction finding, the Canadian military has a gift for you: http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA335551&Location=U2 &doc=GetTRDoc.pdf This report is about VHF RDF. The higher you go in frequency, the WORSE the effects of multipath propagation, especially in cities where there are thousands of reflecting surfaces around, becomes. Notice how UHF TV has LOTS more ghosts than VHF TV. Ghosts on analog TV signals is caused by multipath signals reaching your receiver bouncing off things. Have you ever used an AM band pocket radio's loopstick antenna to RDF the station? It's so low in frequency, and the station runs so much power, RDF is easy and fun. Tune in a station over 10 miles away on the AM, not FM, band. With the radio standing upright, turn the radio on a vertical axis until you find the NULL of the loopstick antenna, which is the line of the ferrite core of the little radio's antenna, out the narrow sides of the case, in most radios. This gives you a LOP, a line of position. The station can be anywhere along that line. Now, move to a new position a long way from the first position and plot another LOP on that signal null the same way. Use a roadmap and plot them. Where they intersect is the station transmitter. Because you have LINES of position, not ARCS of position like a Sellphone system would have to have, you only need two LOPs to find the station. We used to find U-boats that way from loop antennas mounted on destroyer and cruiser ships in WW2. There's few reflecting surfaces at sea. Don't believe every hype Sellphone or Government bureaucrats tell you. It's nonsense. As you can see from this Canadian military report, RDF is very hard to accomplish under the best of conditions. Finding a Sellphone inside a building where no GPS signal can go using RDF techniques is DAMNED NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish with any usable accuracy. Sellphones AREN'T clairvoyant or some kind of black magic..... > GPS DOESN'T WORK INDOORS!.....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.... it's very possible. some of the better gps devices (e.g., with the sirf star iii chipset) do work indoors. i have even obtained a fix inside a steel framed department store with one. >David Moyer <meetme@world.com> wrote in news:meetme-C1C712.23394811062008 >@news.qwest.net: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >GPS DOESN'T WORK INDOORS!.....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.... It can, depending on the signal strength you manage to receive, and your receiver's sensitivity. The signal is obviously degraded, but if you're near a window, it may be sufficient. I have a QStar BT-Q1000 that gets a decent signal indoors and can manage to pin-point my location when I arrive in a hotel a thousand miles from where it was last turned on (so it's definitely not just caching a previous location) Several of the reviews mention this behaviour as well: http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=976 read "In fact, I was able to receive a signal five feet from a window, inside a brick building. The unit also logged while in a sealed backpack... very convenient. " When I use this GPS, I leave it in a compartment near the top of my backpack. >How can you triangulate from WiFi when you have NO IDEA WHERE THE WIFI >BASE IS AND THE WIFI DOESN'T SUPPORT TRIANGULATION?.....Impossible. My iPod Touch with Google Maps has this creepy habit of figuring out where I am, it has nothing but wifi and IP address information to go on. I've tested it on literally dozens of open wifi access points around three different cities. The accuracy isn't comparable to turn by turn GPS directions, but it's sufficient to find myself on a map. >To triangulate the position of an RF transmitter, you need at LEAST TWO >good LOPs (Lines of Position) from TWO separate, KNOWN locations with >STEERABLE antennas Sellphone towers DON'T have. They're actually called "cellphones". As is shown by the iPod Touch (with no GPS and no cellphone support), you actually don't need multiple points of reference to get a rough idea of where you're located when relying on guessing your location based on nearby wifi access points which have known locations. What surprises me is the depth of information in the wifi location databases, but the proof is in how well the service works. For turn by turn directions, GPS is obviously better (I'd argue the only option), but for finding my current location on a map close enough to eyeball what is nearby or manually plan out a route, wifi-based location is more then sufficient. >> > haven't you even seen the Keynote? until you do, you won't understand >> > much about modern cell phones. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and the 1.0 iPhone have the excellent WiFi positioning system via > Skyhook, And how does that work for you in rural highways and interstates? and the 2.0 models have that and true GPS, No it won't- it will be a combination of wifi and tower trinagulation, not true GPS. Apple doesn't even state that it will be true GPS. so if you are > indoors or out, an iPhone will work My Blackberry (with true GPS) works just fine indorrs. ... not so with most Cell Phone GPS > systems. No- not so with most American GPS cell phones. Most CDMA phones have true GPS. > apple has the better system, that's for sure... How do you figure? it's just you are > jealous, that's all. Jealous of what? A fnaboi tinker toy? The Bob <nospam@bob.com> wrote in news:Xns9ABAD2D32D646bob@ 216.196.97.136: > Modern cell phones have things like true GPS. I sorry, Bob, I disagree. Pick any GPS phone. Click to Menu and bring up your GPS position. My ROKR Z6m is supposed to have GPS. There is a GPS position subroutine in the test section you can bring up with the secret code. It never shows anything. My V6 was the same way. If the phones' GPS was installed, they'd be using it for a sales gimmick and Lat/Long would be displayed on the home page to brag about it to you. I think the reason it's not is purely physics. GPS birds are 16,000 miles away on a slice of 2.4 Ghz microwaves, which are line-of-sight, period. To get a fix at all, the phone would HAVE to be IN YOUR HANDS, OUTSIDE, with an UNOBSTRUCTED view of the sky from an antenna mounted on the SKY SIDE, not pointing towards the ground from the back, of the unit. GPS signals at ground level, even outside in the country, are very weak requiring a fantastic receiver with an unobstructed antenna. They're not going to make it, reliably, through the LCD or the keypad pointing up. It's unobstructed antenna isn't on top because that's where the microSD card slot is located. Notice that on ANY handheld GPS there is an RF transparent plastic panel about 2 X 3" above the display on the UPSIDE, when you're looking at it, of the unit. The high gain 2.4 Ghz antenna is under that plastic. Where is that on your sellphone....or your iphone? The display has a massive grid of intersecting CONDUCTORS transparent to your sight, but NOT to 2.4 Ghz at -110 dbm. The antenna can't be there. The antenna can't be on the back because the GPS signal doesn't bounce off the sidewalk. Even if it did, the timing would be all screwed up as you move the unit around making the fix move all over a 50' circle, rendering the fix useless...especially for speed. Nope...there's no antennas...so there can't be a GPS. I think it's a lie for the druggies and Feds. You CANNOT pinpoint the position of the phone as soon as you pass through the front door of the high rise building. That's just fantasy. The last good fix it got was just outside the door. That fix would be what the cops would see. More Sellphone bullshit. > I sorry, Bob, I disagree. Pick any GPS phone. Click to Menu and bring > up your GPS position. My ROKR Z6m is supposed to have GPS. There is a [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > More Sellphone bullshit. larry, please put yourself out of your own misery, WATCH the Keynote since it explains all of that... (to huge applause by the way) learn about skyhook and you'll understand why you can be indoors and still have it work. http://www.skyhookwireless.com/ bottom line it has true WPS & GPS http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc08/ David Moyer <meetme@world.com> wrote in news:meetme-CF5CDC.08130512062008 @n003-000-000-000.static.ge.com: > larry, please put yourself out of your own misery, WATCH the Keynote > since it explains all of that... (to huge applause by the way) learn [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc08/ That goddamned sales meeting of fanbois didn't "explain" anything of the sort. I'm still appalled he was giving 12-year-old kid explanations to a room that was supposed to be full of developer professionals....and they applauded the most stupid toys. Show me where the GPS antenna is located on an Iphone and how that antenna has a clear view of the sky in your 8th floor living room of the 24 story building. Bullshit....pure bullshit. > That goddamned sales meeting of fanbois didn't "explain" anything of the > sort. I'm still appalled he was giving 12-year-old kid explanations to a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Bullshit....pure bullshit. you wouldn't need GPS in that situation, the iPhone is smart enough to use WPS when it is needed. (like your example) i know steve speaks over your head, but there is no reason to have a tantrum about it. - David Moyer <meetme@world.com> wrote in news:meetme-748065.21463512062008 @n003-000-000-000.static.ge.com: > you wouldn't need GPS in that situation, the iPhone is smart enough to > use WPS when it is needed. (like your example) Geez, Iphone may be the answer to ship navigation! >The Bob <nospam@bob.com> wrote in news:Xns9ABAD2D32D646bob@ >216.196.97.136: > >> Modern cell phones have things like true GPS. > >I sorry, Bob, I disagree. Pick any GPS phone. Okay, I pick the AT&T TILT. >Click to Menu and bring >up your GPS position. I don't have anything called "menu", but I do have a couple GPS capable applications. >My ROKR Z6m is supposed to have GPS. There is a >GPS position subroutine in the test section you can bring up with the >secret code. It never shows anything. My V6 was the same way. Perhaps you need to pick better phones. I not only get a lat/long, but I can see the time, nearby satellites and their relative strengths. Oh, and I can pull and log the NMEA data too, should I be sufficiently bored. >Notice that on ANY handheld GPS there is an RF transparent plastic panel >about 2 X 3" above the display on the UPSIDE, when you're looking at it, >of the unit. Perhaps you can point it out for me as there physically isn't 2" above the display on my device: http://www.68phone.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/htc-att-tilt.jpg >Nope...there's no antennas...so there can't be a GPS. I think it's a lie >for the druggies and Feds. You CANNOT pinpoint the position of the phone >as soon as you pass through the front door of the high rise building. >That's just fantasy. The last good fix it got was just outside the door. >That fix would be what the cops would see. It might be fantasy, but my QStar manages to figure out where I am from inside in a hotel, with the last fix being in another country. I've also fired it up downtown inside an office building, ground level, while killing time waiting to meet someone. Last known fix was across town, and was initially returned, but after around two minutes it managed to get close, although it had me across the street and down the block slightly initially. But like you say, fantasy, must have been the last known location. > But like you say, fantasy, must have been the last known location. Right, thanks. If GPS could do what Sellphone vendors want....GARMIN, not them, would have already been doing it.....and they're not because it's physically IMPOSSIBLE. Now, I CAN see the sleazy sellphone bastards bullshitting the customers with some GPS app that gives them the lat/long of the towers, which does have a GPS receiver in them because it is where the TIME set on your sellphone display comes from. Look at a cell near you closely and you'll see a little white dome antenna down on the building or near the base of the tower feeding a small coax into the building. That's a GPS antenna, just like the ones on someone's yacht. >> But like you say, fantasy, must have been the last known location. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the tower feeding a small coax into the building. That's a GPS antenna, >just like the ones on someone's yacht. Go look up the AT&T Tilt (aka HTC Kaiser) specifications. It's a true GPS. The GPS works with wifi and GSM/3G disabled, out in the mountains without either type of service being available. It can also accurately report speed and direction. But like you say, fantasy. > Right, thanks. If GPS could do what Sellphone vendors want....GARMIN, not > them, would have already been doing it.....and they're not because it's > physically IMPOSSIBLE. iphones can do it, so it's not "impossible"... but GPS systems cannot i agree... that's why iPhone 1 has WPS and iPhone 2 has WPS and GPS. > Right, thanks. If GPS could do what Sellphone vendors want....GARMIN, > not > them, would have already been doing it.....and they're not because it's > physically IMPOSSIBLE. My Nemerix-based iBlue BT GPS does a pretty good job indoors- the first GPS I ever owned that worked inside my house. But even forgetting that, there are more ways than just GPS to locate a cellphone- you just seem to get worked up over semantics. Take tower triangulation, for example-think of it like a lower-quality backup for GPS, much like GPRS is a lower-quality backup for 3G. This allows cellphones to use tower location where/when GPS doesn't work (indoors, prior to first fix after cold starts, etc.) Sure, it isn't true "GPS", but if it quacks like a duck... And Garmin WOULDN'T be doing THAT unless they build a nationwide two-way radio network to receive signals from their GPS units and estimate their position based on triangulation and timing like the cell companies can. Why shouldn't cell companies leverage their positioning info as an augmentation of (or substitute for) "real" GPS, particularly when the Feds make them do it for E911 anyway? > Now, I CAN see the sleazy sellphone bastards bullshitting the customers > with some GPS app that gives them the lat/long of the towers, which does [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the tower feeding a small coax into the building. That's a GPS antenna, > just like the ones on someone's yacht. That's only part of it- the cell company knows via timing exactly how far from a tower a phone is. Armed with that information, fairly accurate location of phones with NO on-board GPS (like iPhone the First) is possible with cell carrier intervention (which even makes the claims of "GPS" being "added" to v1 iPhones with the 2.0 upgrade possible, if you'll stretch the definition of "GPS" to include ANY location method.) WiFi makes it even easier- before the iPhone/iPod Touch/Google WiFi stuff, a little clown outfit called Navizon (www.navizon.com) has been offering an app for WinMobile (and jailbroken iPhones!) for over a year that uses a community-created WiFi/cell location database contributed to by GPS-enabled phone users (that frankly worked better in Manhattan for me last week than my BT GPS did!) > My Nemerix-based iBlue BT GPS does a pretty good job indoors- the first GPS > I ever owned that worked inside my house. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > work (indoors, prior to first fix after cold starts, etc.) Sure, it isn't > true "GPS", but if it quacks like a duck... Yes, that's correct, but even when you can hear the satellites there's still help you can get from the network. The network could provide cold start information so you don't have to wait for a few minutes for the phone to find satellites when it has lost its almanac or been moved a long way when turned off. The network could send DGPS corrections measured at the local towers to improve the accuracy of the phone's calculations. And the way to detect and correct GPS signal impairments (Larry's reflections and whatnot) is to overdetermine the navigation solution, not only by tracking more satellites than you minimally need for a solution but also by throwing position data you can get from other sources into the pot. There's a lot of interesting possibilities for this, though what Apple means by "Assisted GPS" is ambiguous until they explain the details. Dennis Ferguson >There's a lot of interesting possibilities for this, though what >Apple means by "Assisted GPS" is ambiguous until they explain the >details. > >Dennis Ferguson They got it all spelled out here. http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/gps.html >>There's a lot of interesting possibilities for this, though what >>Apple means by "Assisted GPS" is ambiguous until they explain the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/gps.html Not really. That desciption of how their Assisted GPS works could be used pretty much unchanged to describe how the GPS in my Verizon cell phone works, yet I can tell you the GPS in my Verizon cell phone is useless to anyone when the phone is not attached to a network and is pretty much useless to me under all circumstances. Dennis Ferguson > http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/gps.html "But if you’re inside — without a clear line of sight to a GPS satellite — iPhone finds you via Wi-Fi. If you’re not in range of a Wi-Fi hot spot, iPhone finds you using cellular towers." Would ANYONE who has a GPS data stream pouring out of ANY wifi hotspot that can pinpoint an iphoney please stand up! The only thing it MAY know is the street address of the IP of the hotspot. Is that what he's talking about?? Google knows I'm in Charleston, SC. I suppose Knology knows where my modem IP is located to my address in some database. Does APPLE have ACCESS to my IP's exact location? If so, we have a WHOLE OTHER ISSUE to discuss here. How does Apple get this IP information and who the hell is giving it to them?!! Maybe it's only ATT hotspots. If so, you'll never find yourself with them where I live...they only exist in tiny spots way to far apart. > "But if youre inside without a clear line of sight to a GPS satellite > iPhone finds you via Wi-Fi. If youre not in range of a Wi-Fi hot spot, > iPhone finds you using cellular towers." [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > have a WHOLE OTHER ISSUE to discuss here. How does Apple get this IP > information and who the hell is giving it to them?!! That's up to the WiFi positioning service provider. With Navizon, it's community supplied- users with "real" GPS-enabled phones running Navizon software continually log the location of WiFi APs and cell towers and transmit the logs to Navizon servers (and get paid by Navizon for their efforts- $20 per 10000 "points"- APs and cell towers are each worth so many points based on whether they've been logged before) while non-GPS phone users can use the Navizon navigation software for free or buy the "virtual GPS" software for $25 to convert the WiFi and tower location info into a simulated NMEA (GPS) data stream on a virtual COM port so third-party GPS software "thinks" the device is GPS enabled. > Maybe it's only ATT hotspots. If so, you'll never find yourself with them > where I live...they only exist in tiny spots way to far apart. No, more than likely the iPhones with GPS will log APs and towers Navizon- style to create a continually updated communal database for all iPhones to share. > That's up to the WiFi positioning service provider. With Navizon, > it's community supplied- users with "real" GPS-enabled phones running [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > stream on a virtual COM port so third-party GPS software "thinks" the > device is GPS enabled. But, how does it work? We know the position of the fixed towers. How does this software position the sellphone inside the Chrysler Building? There must be some kind of pulse timing of some sort. TACAN has worked that way since the end of WW2. You send out a pulse pair of a specific spacing and rep rate, the transponder in the plane delays it 50 microseconds, exactly so it doesn't screw up the overall time delay, then you send it back to the challenging station, with the same pulse pair. The time out plus the time back divided by 2 minus the 50 microseconds fixed delay gives you the radar time distance. If 3 towers could do this over their 120 degree sector arc, they could find where the sellphone is by the point in the arcs where the times intersect....assuming this was all in a level plane with no multipath propagation and 50 story buildings the sellphone is on the 42nd story of. But this isn't reality! The sellphone is on someone's hip on the 42nd floor of the Chrysler Building. Someone explain to me how you know where that sellphone is with all this wonderful "software" that defies all the physics of propagation. I'd love to hear SPECIFICALLY how it works. I still think it's bullshit. > But, how does it work? We know the position of the fixed towers. How > does this software position the sellphone inside the Chrysler Building? Lookup tables. At least with Navizon- the phone relays what WiFi APs and cell towers are "visible" and Navizon's servers report back an approximate position by supplying the coordinates of the last "real" GPS user that had those same towers/APs visible. > There must be some kind of pulse timing of some sort. TACAN has worked > that way since the end of WW2.... You're making this waaaay too complicated. It's done over cellphone data- send the "description" of the area to the server, and get the location back. > But this isn't reality! The sellphone is on someone's hip on the 42nd > floor of the Chrysler Building. Someone explain to me how you know where > that sellphone is with all this wonderful "software" that defies all the > physics of propagation. I'd love to hear SPECIFICALLY how it works. > > I still think it's bullshit. It's mi dly accurate. In Manhattan it generally got me pegged on the right block to use navigation software or location services (i.e. the closest Dunkin' Donuts) it won't get you within 30' like "real" GPS, but so what? It's for plotting a route from where you are to Point B. > t's mi > dly accurate. In Manhattan it generally got me pegged on the right > block to use navigation software or location services (i.e. the > closest Dunkin' Donuts) it won't get you within 30' like "real" GPS, > but so what? It's for plotting a route from where you are to Point B. I'll stick with mine. It puts me in the exact parking space or lane I'm driving down...thanks. > I'll stick with mine. It puts me in the exact parking space or lane I'm > driving down...thanks. Sure, in East Cupcake, South Carolina it does. My BT GPS works fine in Denver where I live as well. Midtown Manhattan gave it fits! It took 20 minutes to get a lock when I first turned it on in the city (after an airplane ride from Denver.) Navizon worked within seconds after booting, finding a dozen or two previously mapped APs (some of which I probably mapped myself, and was paid for, on my last trip to midtown!) Google Maps cell tower positioning worked pretty well in midtown as well- within 300 feet rather than the within one mile accuracy I get in my neighborhood which is served by a single tower! Wish me luck if I ever dial 911 at home from my cell! ;-) <snip> > But, how does it work? We know the position of the fixed towers. How > does this software position the sellphone inside the Chrysler Building? <snip> > But this isn't reality! The sellphone is on someone's hip on the 42nd > floor of the Chrysler Building. Someone explain to me how you know where > that sellphone is with all this wonderful "software" that defies all the > physics of propagation. I'd love to hear SPECIFICALLY how it works. When Google announced the 'My Location' service for cell phones without GPS, they explained they do approximation from the cell tower, determining direction and signal strength. There were a couple of things that were not explained. According to the guy that designed the user IDs determination system, licensed by three of the cellular companies, the tower and horn ID is broadcast as part of the ID packet during transmission. Assume there are six horns (antennas) on each tower. If the tower has been 'mapped', I can tell from the tower and horn ID the 'pie slice' where you are located. Apparently they also know the signal strength of your device. The CEO of Growell in 2003 claimed that Sprint reads the device signal strength, then increases the tower signal to compensate. He also claimed the other methodologies increased the device signal, thus decreasing battery life. I don't know if this is still the case. The point is, if you knew signal strength you could estimate distance from the tower maybe as far away as five miles BUT all kinds of radio issues could throw that estimate off. I have used tower tracking on a HTC Hermes and iPhone but it does not work on my Blackjack Version I not II. Most, not all, devices are being tracked by two towers. The tower with the strongest signal is >usually< the tower serving the device. If the base station controller permits, mathematically you could overlay the pie slice of the two towers to find an approximate location. If you have not experienced this, they draw a blue circle of differing radius to alert you of the possible area. I've never seen a better location determination than 100 yards. Frequently it's 1000+ meters. If you are in an urban area, enter street addresses, intersections, business names, etc. If you are in a rural area, traveling 60 mph, then a half mile is 30 seconds of travel. You'll see the blue dot jump as you are passed from one tower to another, giving an indication of travel. Since you are focused on the technology, research the Popular Science articles that will soon be provided for free in an online archive. An inventor filed for a patent to do 'triangulation' from two points. PopSci reported you can't >tri<-angulate from two points. He had to do a demo. He successfully demonstrated location determination from two mountain tops in Nevada, but the patent office was not satisfied. He arraigned for a test from one of the space shuttles. His test was aboard the shuttle that blew up at launch, not the one that came apart during re-entry. I apologize for not being able to provide more technical info, I'm a designer and marketing guy. I'd suggest Wikipedia and check to see if the archives are online at www.popsci.com. Thurman CellHelp.US > When Google announced the 'My Location' service for cell phones > without GPS, they explained they do approximation from the cell tower, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you are located. Apparently they also know the signal strength of your > device. There are THREE antenna panels on the selltower, not 6. If there are 6, then two panels are connected together, in line vertically to change the 120 degree sector pattern downward to reduce interference to other cells. The more selltowers, the further down they point the antennas. So, from which 120 degree sector you are connected to, I can tell which of the 3 directions from the tower you are located. > The CEO of Growell in 2003 claimed that Sprint reads the device signal > strength, then increases the tower signal to compensate. He also [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > HTC Hermes and iPhone but it does not work on my Blackjack Version I > not II. Device strength is related to so many factors it isn't funny. Weather, time of day, what vehicles are parked along what streets, what kind of noise all the other RF sources are making near your bandwidth, Sellphone loading itself in the area, sunspot activity that wipes out the satellites (not a problem lately), foliage in the trees, that little girl with the metalized helium balloon at the hot dog stand, and let's not forget our old friend multipath propagation bouncing off every building in 2 miles....all effect signal path attenuation, causing the tower to change the sellphone's output transmitter power level to get reasonably level signals at the tower on all the channels. I'd say if you could figure it out WITHIN 5 MILES, you'd be doing great! > Most, not all, devices are being tracked by two towers. The tower with > the strongest signal is >usually< the tower serving the device. If the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to alert you of the possible area. I've never seen a better location > determination than 100 yards. Frequently it's 1000+ meters. Without an accurate pulse ranging system, the three-sector arrays on 3 towers could, probably, draw us a triangle with you inside it 2-3 miles on a side......"He's in there....we think." > If you are in an urban area, enter street addresses, intersections, > business names, etc. If you are in a rural area, traveling 60 mph, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > aboard the shuttle that blew up at launch, not the one that came apart > during re-entry. Triangulation is easy with just TWO LOPs (Lines of Position). Ask the U- boats that got sunk. But, to do this we need LINES of positions, not SECTORS of position. The wider the lines, the more inaccurate the fix. With an AM pocket radio, you can come within about 3-5 degrees width of a line. With two of those fixes, you can plot a best guess in the middle of each very narrow 3 degree beamwidth and be within a few hundred feet of the AM transmitter's antenna at a range of 10 miles. But the width of that line at a 3-sector sell tower is 120 degrees, not 5....a very wide area. > I apologize for not being able to provide more technical info, I'm a > designer and marketing guy. I'd suggest Wikipedia and check to see if > the archives are online at www.popsci.com. It doesn't. I've looked and looked. The reason for all the secrecy is Sellphone Magic. We'll wish it so and it'll happen....or at least we'll make them THINK it happens. I'm still hunting the basis of this wonderful technology. I bet the ARMY and NAVY are most interested in it. They've been plodding along with RDF since WW One trying to find the enemy's transmitters. To do it without sophisticated directional arrays and timed pulses like GPS is Cellphone Magic, indeed.....(c; > The network could provide > cold start information so you don't have to wait for a few minutes > for the phone to find satellites when it has lost its almanac or been > moved a long way when turned off. Modern GPS receivers lockup from a cold start in about a minute, at most. This isn't an issue in a RUNNING sellphone you're NOT going to shut down, drive 500 miles, then turn back on, over and over. The "Network" doesn't exist to provide this information. The GPS birds, themselves, provide this information about the constellation's status and which birds are useful in their overriding data timing streams. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT >> The network could provide >> cold start information so you don't have to wait for a few minutes [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > information about the constellation's status and which birds are useful in > their overriding data timing streams. A minute sounds about right if you have good signals. You need to do a trial-and-error search for code phase and Doppler frequency, and then download the satellite position information at 50 bits/second, with a full message taking 18 seconds to arrive if you manage to get it all error-free the first time through. So you can wait the minute or so to determine all this on your own, or you can have the network send you the few hundred bytes worth of the exact same data and be up and running in a few seconds. And satellite acquistion requires 20 dB higher signal levels than does tracking satellites once you've found them, so the assist may also get you up in places where the receiver would remain searching forever. Now you might not turn off your phone during your 500 mile drives, but you do exactly that if you fly instead. More than this, you seem to be assuming that the GPS will track satellites whenever the phone is on, whether the phone's owner actually wants to know where he is or not. You certainly might want to do that if it might take a minute and 20 dB excess signal to get a new position fix, but if you can guarantee the time to first fix will only be a few seconds why would you bother? You could instead leave the GPS receiver off when no one is looking, saving the battery, and only turn it back on when the user really wants to know where he is. Then people who mostly hang around close to home, but might travel somewhere where they need some help every week or so, would only need to run the receiver every week or so. > http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf > REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT http://www.google.com/search?q=assisted+GPS+ttff Dennis Ferguson > There's a lot of interesting possibilities for this, though what > Apple means by "Assisted GPS" is ambiguous until they explain the > details. > > Dennis Ferguson They'll never reveal what they meant because it's jibberish. Look closely at the case of this gadget and you'll see it has no place for a GPS antenna. > Yes, that's correct, but even when you can hear the satellites there's > still help you can get from the network. The network could provide [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > throwing position data you can get from other sources into the > pot. True- many of the recent GPS-enabled smartphones use network data to speed time to first fix (although it's obviously a network-dependent feature.) > There's a lot of interesting possibilities for this, though what > Apple means by "Assisted GPS" is ambiguous until they explain the > details. The Skyhook stuff sounds like www.navizon.com's WiFi positioning, which I assume augments a "real" GPS on iPhoneII, and simulates it on iPhone I. We'll see soon enough, of course. ;-) >True- many of the recent GPS-enabled smartphones use network data to speed >time to first fix (although it's obviously a network-dependent feature.) Actually, depending on what method is used, it's not always network-dependant. HTC Kaiser, for example, uses your data connection to download the GPS almanac. This isn't network dependant beyond requiring internet connectivity (with the data being valid for a week), and can work over GRPS, 3G or even wifi. However, if you're talking about using the network to determine an approximate location (which can also assist in the time to first fix), then this is definitely network dependant. > >True- many of the recent GPS-enabled smartphones use network data to speed > >time to first fix (although it's obviously a network-dependent feature.) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > connectivity (with the data being valid for a week), and can work over > GRPS, 3G or even wifi. Thanks- I'd forgotten about that feature employed on the recent HTCs. >> >True- many of the recent GPS-enabled smartphones use network data to >speed [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Thanks- I'd forgotten about that feature employed on the recent HTCs. The lack of consistently applied nomenclature makes discussing GPS fun too, 'eh? :( > >Thanks- I'd forgotten about that feature employed on the recent HTCs. > > The lack of consistently applied nomenclature makes discussing GPS fun > too, 'eh? > > :( Yeah, you'd think in "hype" era we live it, they'd at least use marketing terms we could use- i.e. "the new HTCs- now with 'FastFix!'" but everyone seems content to call any augmentation, network dependent or otherwise, "AGPS." > However, if you're talking about using the network to determine an > approximate location (which can also assist in the time to first fix), > then this is definitely network dependant. .....and noone I can find can tell me SPECIFICALLY how that works..... > My Nemerix-based iBlue BT GPS does a pretty good job indoors- the > first GPS I ever owned that worked inside my house. Do you live in an RF transparent house? Wood is transparent, but attenuates the signals. Metal is not. Concrete is not, eliminating good fixes in all big buildings, malls, stores, public places, etc. I get a great fix by sitting the Nokia BT GPS puck near a window, but the fix is only marginal because the only GPS it can see are the ones in the direction of the window AND the REFLECTED SIGNALS from all the ones it can't the other ways. So, as the reflection paths change around, it wanders all over the place up to about 300-400 ft, rendering its fix more useless. This isn't about EQUIPMENT....this is about PHYSICS, the PHYSICS of RF PROPAGATION. ....and there are other considerations using a very low level GPS in a very active RF environment most of you live in...the city. Even the very Sellphone you're wearing is a threat to GPS accuracy: http://www.stk.com/downloads/support/productSupport/literature/pdfs/whitePa pers/Crowded_streets_spectrum_ION.pdf REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT > > My Nemerix-based iBlue BT GPS does a pretty good job indoors- the > > first GPS I ever owned that worked inside my house. > > Do you live in an RF transparent house? Wood is transparent, but > attenuates the signals. Metal is not. Concrete is not, eliminating good > fixes in all big buildings, malls, stores, public places, etc. Typical wood roof, asphalt shingles etc. No prior GPS I owned worked inside but this BT module locks (albeit slowly.) > I get a great fix by sitting the Nokia BT GPS puck near a window, but the > fix is only marginal because the only GPS it can see are the ones in the > direction of the window AND the REFLECTED SIGNALS from all the ones it > can't the other ways. So, as the reflection paths change around, it > wanders all over the place up to about 300-400 ft, rendering its fix more > useless. Why is 300 ft. "useless?" It's certainly not as accurate as it would be unobstructed, but it works. > This isn't about EQUIPMENT....this is about PHYSICS, the PHYSICS of RF > PROPAGATION. > > ....and there are other considerations using a very low level GPS in a very > active RF environment most of you live in...the city. Even the very > Sellphone you're wearing is a threat to GPS accuracy: http://www.stk.com/downloads/support/productSupport/literature/pdfs/whitePa > pers/Crowded_streets_spectrum_ION.pdf > > REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT Despite your "references" the fact is a number of Cellphones contain working "real" GPS like the Nokia N95, AT&T Tilt (HTC Tytn II) and presumably iPhone II. >> > My Nemerix-based iBlue BT GPS does a pretty good job indoors- the >> > first GPS I ever owned that worked inside my house. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Typical wood roof, asphalt shingles etc. No prior GPS I owned worked > inside but this BT module locks (albeit slowly.) I'm having the same results, here. The Nokia LD-3w, and I presume the LD-4w is even more sensitive, will get some kind of fix just sitting on my desk inside a metal mobile home or through a restaurant window. It's really uncanny considering the distances and signal levels available to it. Any fix at all is nearly a miracle. "Slowly" is all about GPS. The receivers are faster to lockup than they used to be because the processing has increased, but they're NEVER going to be "fast". The GPS system, itself, only sends out the bird data every few seconds, and that's not going to change from sellphone magic. > >> I get a great fix by sitting the Nokia BT GPS puck near a window, but [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Why is 300 ft. "useless?" It's certainly not as accurate as it would > be unobstructed, but it works. Ok, in another message I asked how we're going to find a sellphone on someone's hip on the 42nd floor of the Chrysler Building, as an example. A 300 ft circle in a major metropolitan area where these circles are stacked on top of each other layer after layer is hundreds of thousands of square feet of real estate, vertically. A 300 ft circle in a mall parking lot on a Saturday morning can keep you searching for your car for a lot longer than it takes the GPS receiver to lock up....especially as that fix keeps wandering all over the parking lot every second. It may not be totally "useless", but its value to find the kids inside the mall is pretty "useless" unless the mall is empty. > >> This isn't about EQUIPMENT....this is about PHYSICS, the PHYSICS of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > working "real" GPS like the Nokia N95, AT&T Tilt (HTC Tytn II) and > presumably iPhone II. Yes, and it's too bad sellphone companies do everything they can to prevent you from even seeing your own lat/long RIGHT THERE ON THE FRONT DISPLAY WITH THE TIME, without all the hacking to defeat them.... If it DOESN'T have a fix, why are they all so intent on hiding that fact from us? > http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html I see they won't be touting battery life as a big draw. They still limit the phone in choice of audio and video formats. And it still doen't have true GPS. Average camera at best with no video recording. No card slot. And no western skiing for the iPhone user (maximum operating altitude 10,000 ft.). Looks like a mediocre feature offering at best. Also, how can the phone operate in a range of 32 to 95 degrees but not operate in a range of -4 to 113 degrees? Must be more of the Apple Rocket Science. But I'll bet the "user-configurable maximum volume limit" will be a big selling point. After all, who ever heard of a volume control on a cell phone? >> http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > big selling point. After all, who ever heard of a volume control on a > cell phone? I was also quite curious as to what "assisted GPS" means on a page that is supposed to be the technical specifications of the device. Two words is kinda vague. Either it really does have GPS or it doesn't. I thought that is why the plastic case, because the GPS antenna MUST be somewhere it can see the sky. The satellites are around 16,000 miles away and line of sight. Any reflections, like operating a GPS receiver in a building so the signal must bounce off something to get through the windows makes the GPS fix very inaccurate because it's an analog system running on timing and phase relationships between multiple signals. In a car, you'd have to provide iPhone some kind of dash mounting bracket so it could see UP into the sky, not with the car roof blocking the RF raining down on it. The temperature range is probably dependent on the LCD's capabilities, not the phone. Too hot, the display turns black as the crystals melt. Too cold and the crystals are so sluggish the display looks like slow motion and will actually "freeze" at some low temperature. But, I thought we'd gotten over most of that issue, especially in the cold. Maybe they're afraid of the hot glue holding the cables on inside the case melting. Has anyone had iphone troubles because they forgot and left it in a car in the hot sun? What did the display look like before it cooled back off? I cannot imagine ANY portable device needing a volume limit. All the damned things, including my Nokia N800 Linux tablet, need MORE AMPLIFICATION so you can hear it in a noisy place. Every one of these devices needs a hardware-based audio compander (compressor-expander) to provide proper audio levels because the source material is either driven into distortion or is so low you NEVER have enough volume control range to bring it up so you can hear it. Even internet broadcasters do a HORRIBLE job of watching and adjusting their encoding levels to ensure peak audio output without overdriving their encoders. Very few use companders at the source, so the devices desparately need them at the end. One of the reasons I didn't upgrade N800 to N810 is N810 has LESS speakers, mounted on the sides, than N800's front mounted on either side of the display. Sitting close enough to watch it, there is noticeable stereo from the speakers. I don't sit on the side, where the N810 audio comes out. The other reason was the loss of big SDHC memory cards, going to a single microSD limited to 8GB. N800 has lots better storage. >>> http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html >> I see they won't be touting battery life as a big draw. They still [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > in the hot sun? What did the display look like before it cooled back > off? I've kept mine in the clear map display area of the tank bag on my motorcycle. It got quite hot... The iphone shuts itself down after about 45 minutes under the map display(much like the heat from a car under there). >>> http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > reason was the loss of big SDHC memory cards, going to a single > microSD limited to 8GB. N800 has lots better storage. Larry- I think you missed my point. For a "technical specification" page from a major computing corporation, the page looks like it was written by a five year old with all of the inaccuracies and vaguarities. >> http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html > > I see they won't be touting battery life as a big draw. They still limit > the phone in choice of audio and video formats. And it still doen't have > true GPS. It's not clear from the specs. "Assisted GPS" can mean two different things. It can mean that he phone has a GPS receiver _and_ use A-GPS when a good satellite signal is unobtainable, or it can mean that the location can _only_ be obtained via the assisted GPS server. > It's not clear from the specs. "Assisted GPS" can mean two different > things. It can mean that he phone has a GPS receiver _and_ use A-GPS > when a good satellite signal is unobtainable, or it can mean that the > location can _only_ be obtained via the assisted GPS server. i've never seen assisted gps mean the latter. assisted gps means exactly what it says -- it's a gps that can in some situations, be assisted by the cell towers. the rest of the time, it's a normal ordinary gps receiver. >> It's not clear from the specs. "Assisted GPS" can mean two different >> things. It can mean that he phone has a GPS receiver _and_ use A-GPS [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > assisted by the cell towers. the rest of the time, it's a normal > ordinary gps receiver. Every CDMA phone manufactured in the last 5 or 6 years has an "Assisted GPS" receiver which works exactly like that. The phone itself has about 20% of a GPS receiver (the 20% closest to the antenna) and relies on the carrier's network for the other 80%. If you want to know where you are you need to get the carrier to tell you. I doubt the Apple phone works like that since GSM networks (unlike CDMA networks) aren't required to have the GPS infrastructure you would need to provide that assistance, and many overseas operators avoid GPS both for cost and for who-controls-the-on-off-switch reasons, which means that a less-than-full GPS implementation in the phone wouldn't work at all in a lot of places. It is the case, however, that "Assisted GPS" is an utterly ambiguous term. It could mean a lot of things. Dennis Ferguson > > http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And no western skiing for the iPhone user (maximum operating altitude > 10,000 ft.). Looks like a mediocre feature offering at best. "10,000 ft?" That means there might be iPhone holding stations on Pikes Peak where you can leave your iPhone while you drive up to the top and then get your iPhone on your way back down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak It also says: "Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F" so even if a Skier could find a mountain less than 10,000 feet they would have to ski when it was above freezing too. At least they put "Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR" on it so it might work with Stereo Bluetooth headsets. |
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