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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / June 2008

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iPhone 3G firmware has FM radio support, FOTA

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4phun - 19 Jun 2008 23:36 GMT
FYI
Reports from users in possession of the latest iPhone 3G firmware
indicate that the device will have support for both FM radio and FOTA
(firmware over the air).

FM radio support means that the iPhone 3G may be able to make use of
devices like Apple’s own “iPod Radio Remote,” which includes an FM
tuner and allows users to listen to FM radio stations. Current iPhone
and iPod touch models are incompatible with the radio remote.

Firmware over the air support means that Apple will theoretically be
able to deliver software and firmware updates over the iPhone’s
cellular network connection, potentially allowing re-locking of
unlocked devices and feature enhancements that do not require
connection to a host computer.
Mark Crispin - 20 Jun 2008 02:21 GMT
> Reports from users in possession of the latest iPhone 3G firmware
> indicate that the device will have support for both FM radio and FOTA
> (firmware over the air).

Good.  That offers hope that, eventually, 3G iPhone will catch up to the
Nokia N800 which always had FM radio capability and over-the-air updating.

In 4 or 5 years, a future version of iPhone will have other standard Nokia
features, such as uncrippled Bluetooth, stereo speakers, voice recording,
800x240 resolution screen, removable battery, SD card slots, and perhaps
even a UNIX that can run background tasks without freezing up.

It's interesting watching iPhone catch up to the past!

Give Apple's outsource contractors in India some time.  They're smart
guys, but it's taking them longer ever since American and European
engineers wised up and stopped giving them free consulting.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Todd Allcock - 20 Jun 2008 03:57 GMT
> Good.  That offers hope that, eventually, 3G iPhone will catch up to
> the Nokia N800 which always had FM radio capability and over-the-air
> updating.

Now all the N800 needs is a phone!  ;-)

> In 4 or 5 years, a future version of iPhone will have other standard
> Nokia features, such as uncrippled Bluetooth, stereo speakers, voice
> recording, 800x240 resolution screen

(you meant 800x480)

>, removable battery, SD card slots, and perhaps even a UNIX that can
> run background tasks without freezing up.
>
> It's interesting watching iPhone catch up to the past!

What's interesting to me is that in every manufacturer's haste to make an
iPhone killer, Nokia didn't do the obvious thing and just wedge a GSM radio
into an N-series tablet.  An N800 or N810-based device with integrated
cellular phone would be a heck of a device, and a double "killer"-
competition to both the iPhone and those overpriced HTC WinMo phone/tablets
(Advantage, Shift, etc.)

At the very least such a device would make a good interim product before
they came up with something new from the ground-up.
Oxford - 20 Jun 2008 05:21 GMT
> Good.  That offers hope that, eventually, 3G iPhone will catch up to the
> Nokia N800 which always had FM radio capability and over-the-air updating.

you can always add a radio to an iphone or ipod if you are feeling retro.

> In 4 or 5 years, a future version of iPhone will have other standard Nokia
> features, such as uncrippled Bluetooth,

bluetooth is not crippled on the iphone, wait until july 11

> stereo speakers,

the iphone 2 has stereo speakers.

> voice recording,

just add it if you want it.

> 800x240 resolution screen,

but the iphone has a higher quality screen than the nokia.

> removable battery,

the battery is user replaceable, here is a kit for $15

http://www.hyratech.com/product.php?productid=6828

> SD card slots,

not needed when you can simply sync your data with the power cable

> and perhaps
> even a UNIX that can run background tasks without freezing up.

the iphone doesn't freeze up, do your research.

> It's interesting watching iPhone catch up to the past!
>
> Give Apple's outsource contractors in India some time.  They're smart
> guys, but it's taking them longer ever since American and European
> engineers wised up and stopped giving them free consulting.

apple has never outsourced to india.

i see you are still jealous of the iphone, cute!
Todd Allcock - 20 Jun 2008 06:35 GMT
> > In 4 or 5 years, a future version of iPhone will have other standard Nokia
> > features, such as uncrippled Bluetooth,
>
> bluetooth is not crippled on the iphone, wait until july 11

Wait for what?  For them to uncripple it?  If so, the correct response it
"the bluetooth on the iPhone won't be crippled much longer..."

Of course, I'm sure you'll have a different de inition of uncrippled than
I.  "Uncrippled" means able to transfer files to any other bluetooth device
(including media files), and connect to a PC via bluetooth to sync or for
use as a cellular modem.


> > SD card slots,
>
> not needed when you can simply sync your data with the power cable

That's a silly answer.  The advantage of removable memory to to trade files
with other devices "in the field," i.e. take a digital camera SD card, plug
it in the phone and e-mail pictures, for example, without waiting until you
get to a PC.  

That is perfectly illustrative of why the iPhone doesn't make a good laptop
replacement- it's far too dependent on a computer to sync with.  For all of
the press articles that want to call it a "portable computer" or a "mobile
computing platform," it's really a peripheral, not a computer.  A
"computer" should have a self-accessable file system, and shouldn't need to
be hooked to a different computer just to perform basic tasks.  (I used to
make this same argument against Windows Mobile devices back when they also
were much too reliant on a PC.  Thankfully that's changed over the years.)  

Your iPhone has a faster processor, more memory, and 16 times the storage
of my old Toshiba Tecra Win95 laptop, but the Tecra worked independently of
any other computer- why can't your iPhone?
Mark Crispin - 20 Jun 2008 17:09 GMT
> bluetooth is not crippled on the iphone, wait until july 11

You saw it here boys and girls.  Oxford claims that as of July 11, Apple
will support Bluetooth file transfer to any device (including media files)
and Bluetooth tethering to laptops.

Yet another of Oxford's bogus predictions.

>> voice recording,
> just add it if you want it.

We're not talking about jailbroken devices.

>> 800x480 resolution screen,
> but the iphone has a higher quality screen than the nokia.

Of all the mindless twaddle that Oxford peddles, this is the funniest.  I
always roll on the floor laughing every time he utter this one.

He's obviously never seen the EXACT SAME PHOTO displayed side by side on a
Nokia N800 and an iPhone; nor the EXACT SAME YOUTUBE VIDEO played side by
side on a Nokia N800 and an iPhone.

Apparently, he believe that there are only two screen types, and that if a
device is not an iPhone it must have the same type of screen found on a
typical Windows Mobile device.

The kid (he must be 13 or 14) hasn't a clue, and he shows it in public.
No wonder he doesn't post with his real name.

>> removable battery,
> the battery is user replaceable, here is a kit for $15
> http://www.hyratech.com/product.php?productid=6828

Too bad that it requires soldering and voids the warranty

>> SD card slots,
> not needed when you can simply sync your data with the power cable

Tell us about this power cable that plugs into an iPhone at one end and a
digital camera at the other end to synchronize data between the two
without needing a PC or Mac.

> the iphone doesn't freeze up, do your research.

Unfortunately for you, I have done quite a bit of actual development and
support work involving iPhone, including building applications.  I can
scroll through a threaded view of 50,000+ email messages on my iToy.

I know quite a few ways to freeze up an iPhone -- including non-jailbroken
ones.  iPhone has numerous bugs, the vast majority of which are not fixed
in 2.0 and are not likely to be fixed in the future due to limitations in
the platform.

With that said, iPhone isn't a bad effort as mobile devices go.  It
suffers from Apple's walled-garden mentality, but it's alright for
light-duty PDA/email work.

> apple has never outsourced to india.

Unfortunately for you, I know the company in India.  I also know the one
in China that does the actual manufacturing.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Larry - 20 Jun 2008 03:02 GMT
4phun <vic.healey@gmail.com> wrote in news:39d7d67f-84bf-42b5-86f6-
47e453706728@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> FM radio support

Well, what do you think about that?!

http://technocrat.net/d/2007/2/7/14542

Nokia simply forgot they put one in ours....(c;

......me, too.  Streamtuners' much better!

http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/streamtuner/
Todd Allcock - 20 Jun 2008 03:45 GMT
> FYI
> Reports from users in possession of the latest iPhone 3G firmware
> indicate that the device will have support for both FM radio...

Wow.  That's hard to believe Apple would adopt such a "backwards
technology"- at least that's what Oxford and all the zealots at CSMA called
FM when anyone suggested it's inclusion in Microsoft's Zune was an
advantage over it's omission on iPods...

Gee, first that "obsolete" 3G, and now "backwards" FM...  I'm wondering if
Oxford will even buy an iPhone 2.0?...
Oxford - 20 Jun 2008 05:10 GMT
> > FYI
> > Reports from users in possession of the latest iPhone 3G firmware
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Gee, first that "obsolete" 3G, and now "backwards" FM...  I'm wondering if
> Oxford will even buy an iPhone 2.0?...

the circuitry is part of the infineon chipset, but apple would never
utilize it on such a modern device. and you can turn off 3G so you can
have double the battery life. nobody needs 3G when WiFi is so readily
available. i probably won't buy the 2.0 version, can't see much benefit
that won't come already with the 2.0 software for my 1.0 iphones.
Mark Crispin - 20 Jun 2008 16:26 GMT
> nobody needs 3G when WiFi is so readily
> available. i probably won't buy the 2.0 version, can't see much benefit
> that won't come already with the 2.0 software for my 1.0 iphones.

Translation:

Oxford's mommie told him that she's not going to buy him a 3G iPhone so
soon after spending $500 for the 2G one.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Oxford - 20 Jun 2008 16:54 GMT
> > nobody needs 3G when WiFi is so readily
> > available. i probably won't buy the 2.0 version, can't see much benefit
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Oxford's mommie told him that she's not going to buy him a 3G iPhone so
> soon after spending $500 for the 2G one.

my mommy spent $499, got $100 back and parlayed that $100 into $165 on
ebay, thus spent $349. mommy can sell my older iPhone on ebay for $315
unlocked, so mommy really only spent $49.

in hindsight, seems like marky's mommy wasn't a very good shopper for
buying the poor selling, poor quality N800.

the iphone has turned out to be the very best long term value in cell
phone history. my mommy is very happy.
Mark Crispin - 20 Jun 2008 17:22 GMT
> my mommy spent $499, got $100 back and parlayed that $100 into $165 on
> ebay, thus spent $349. mommy can sell my older iPhone on ebay for $315
> unlocked, so mommy really only spent $49.

Except that she won't do it.

> in hindsight, seems like marky's mommy wasn't a very good shopper for
> buying the poor selling, poor quality N800.

It would be quite a feat for either of my parents to have purchased a
N800.  They certainly never told me about their access to a time machine
in which they could travel into the future and buy a device that was
marketed many years after they died.

Unlike Oxford, I can do side-by-side comparisons of various devices
because I own all them and build software on all of them.  I have no
particular stake in any of these; and certainly do not define my social
standing by any gadget that I may possess.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Larry - 20 Jun 2008 18:54 GMT
Oxford <apony@pasture.com> wrote in news:apony-6D6D60.09542020062008
@n003-000-000-000.static.ge.com:

> in hindsight, seems like marky's mommy wasn't a very good shopper for
> buying the poor selling, poor quality N800.

Cue music......

"Dream............and the dream comes true.........,
Dream.............it's the thing to do............."

N800, the number one selling Amazon gadget last Christmas....
How soon we forget.

.......AND SO MANY APPS TO PLAY WITH!

Here's my new N800 "toy"....(c;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jhnZpkeFhGs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jKx5tNrsiE8

and, all those unreliable buttons make playing games a real pain in the
a.s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toOVLIBSMkw
look hot jerky and just awful 800 pixels wide looks...terrible.

And there are some awful problems with email interrupting my TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qOP6MFI8j4
How stupid...multitasking in a mobile device....

How silly taking the chance of running all those OTHER systems without
restrictions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=702kX8WYBeU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41EMuNzstFw

We don't even have to flash the OS for updates any more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELG3C2a3rZM

It even makes your coffee, cup and all!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAmNIPPNC_k
This app uses our new HOST MODE switch applet for the USB port....

Here's a great free app, Xournal, showing you how terrible it is to
install software from maemo.org and what Xournal can do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzXFnHnFuzU
Just click the green install arrow, which downloads the .install text
file that Application manager uses to automate the process.

Tablet school produces videos for a lot of the features to help the
newbies, especially ipod/iphone users not used to having choices like
installing freeware, using new applications as they come.

All your Palm OS software runs under the Garnet virtual machine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzzZ1NdNduk
V2 just came out and rotates to full screen with a lot better interface
and much faster emulation.  This is just one of many virtual machines for
the N8xx boxes under OS2008.  Palm Desktop hotsyncs over your Lan, BT or
USB cable.

The only app I paid for is Wayfinder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWAmxpQP0Ww
But the freeware apps work nearly as good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=698iql3B824
and have lots more data sources to choose from.

So, OX, point us to some really neat stuff for the iphone....freeware.
Oxford - 21 Jun 2008 01:15 GMT
Too bad the N800 never caught on...

Now, it's nothing more than a paperweight.

True... and I agree it's sad that Nokia was so hell bent on cheating
their customers. They should learn from Apple and ONLY offer "value" to
their customers... it seems to work for them.

-
Todd Allcock - 21 Jun 2008 05:26 GMT
> Too bad the N800 never caught on...

Depends on your POV, I guess.  It's the best selling example of a web
tablet yet produced, but the web tablet category never really took off.
Like standalone PDAs, I assume "pure" web tablets will give way to
integrated cellphone/web tablets.

In many ways, that's what the iPhone is at it's core- a combo
phone/iPod/web tablet.
Sure, the Nokia tablets also function as Linux computers, but essentially
web tablets were envisioned to be network computers- connecting to the
internet (or intranet), rather than store files or run programs locally.
And doesn't that exactly describe iPhone 1.0?  No accessable file system,
no installable apps- everything is done "in the clouds" via Safari or a
webapp.  You want to see the "original" iPhone?  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Com_Audrey
That's essentially the mother of all web-tablet "cloud" computing devices
to follow, like both the Nokia N-series tablets and your iPhone.


> Now, it's nothing more than a paperweight.

How so?  It continues to receive upgrades from Nokia, there's an active
development community, and it's successor, the N810, continues to sell in
reasonably good numbers.   If Nokia would only stick a phone in it, it'd be
the one device I'd switch from WinMo for, but I'm not willing to play the
separate phone/PDA game again- I did that for far too many years.  (Oh, the
irony that the world's best-selling mobile phone manufacturer also builds
the world's only successful line of web tablets but doesn't stick a PHONE
in any of them!  It'd be like Logitech selling a PC that didn't come with a
mouse!)
Larry - 21 Jun 2008 14:49 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in news:g3hvti$msn
$1@aioe.org:

>  If Nokia would only stick a phone in it, it

That would certainly be the end of it.  There would be no developers,
no software, no bluetooth, features would all be crippled and it
would be another carrier-controlled web appliance......just like
iPhone, controlled by "them", not us.  I wouldn't have bought one.  I
don't want a WebTV appliance I'm not allowed to use the way I see
fit, and that's exactly what it would become........another iphone.
Todd Allcock - 21 Jun 2008 15:04 GMT
> >  If Nokia would only stick a phone in it, it
>
> That would certainly be the end of it.  There would be no developers,
> no software, no bluetooth, features would all be crippled and it
> would be another carrier-controlled web appliance......just like
> iPhone, controlled by "them", not us.

I'm talking about an unlocked GSM device.  Look up Nokia's "N95" Larry.  Or
Communicator series, or S60 series.  Nokia sells plenty of unlocked,
uncrippled carrier branded handsets.  A radio is a radio.  With WiFi and
bluetooth, a cellular (GSM) radio is all that's missing.  

>  I wouldn't have bought one.

Honestly, that's not my concern!  ;-)  As I said, it should be an option-
i.e. an N801 or 811 with cellular, 800 or 810 without.

>  I
> don't want a WebTV appliance I'm not allowed to use the way I see
> fit, and that's exactly what it would become........another iphone.

No, it wouldn't- Nokia sells both carrier-branded and non-branded devices.
Mark Crispin - 21 Jun 2008 16:28 GMT
> I'm talking about an unlocked GSM device.  Look up Nokia's "N95" Larry.  Or
> Communicator series, or S60 series.  Nokia sells plenty of unlocked,
> uncrippled carrier branded handsets.  A radio is a radio.  With WiFi and
> bluetooth, a cellular (GSM) radio is all that's missing.

The problem with that is that you're then stuck with whatever radio was
built in to the device.

That's the problem with iPhone: no GSM means no service.  The 3G iPhone
means that it can work in Japan (which is 3G only) but that doesn't help
in CDMA only areas.  This is especially a problem for people who travel a
lot.

Now, our mindless little Oxford will say "Wi-Fi is everywhere, use that".
If that were actually true, then the the N800 is fully satisfactory for
every purpose.  It provides a much better browsing experience than iPhone
(pixels do count) and with Firefox has a much more standard browser than
Safari.  You can even make calls on it using Skype for much less than what
AT&T charges to use an iPhone.

Of course, ubiquitous free Wi-Fi is a pipe dream, so you actually do need
wide-area wireless.

Barring the advent of standardized detachable radio modules (no, not the
PCMCIA or USB bricks used for laptops) that can be interchanged with
multiple devices, a good compromise seems to be Bluetooth to an el cheapo
RAZR.

And yes, that's what I'd like to see; a detachable radio module, with a
form factor similar to a battery, that could be inserted into any phone or
other mobile device.  No more need to have a collection of mobile phones
for different areas; instead, you have one phone and a collection of radio
modules as needed.

Nobody offers that now.  But I rather strongly suspect that Nokia et al
will do so long before Apple does.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Todd Allcock - 21 Jun 2008 20:44 GMT
> >  A radio is a radio.  With WiFi and
> > bluetooth, a cellular (GSM) radio is all that's missing.
>
> The problem with that is that you're then stuck with whatever radio was
> built in to the device.

True, but again, I'm really talking about a different model- Nokia's bread
and butter is the GSM phone, and that would cover 3/4's of the planet.  For
anything else, the current model (with bluetooth connectivity) would suffice.

> That's the problem with iPhone: no GSM means no service.  The 3G
> iPhone means that it can work in Japan (which is 3G only) but that
> doesn't help in CDMA only areas.  This is especially a problem for
> people who travel a lot.

But if the iPhone's bluetooth wasn't crippled, you could hook it through
your rental/prepaid phone.  When T-Mo's GPRS went down on me for a short
period on a recent trip to Rhode Island, I tethered my WinMo PDA phone via
IR to an ancient Verizon prepaid phone (over 14.4kbps QNC!) I carry as a
backup, to get my email.  Simiarly, a GSM-based "N801" could rely on
GSM/GPRS/3G when/where available, and fall back on BT to a prepaid/rental
phone elsewhere.

> Barring the advent of standardized detachable radio modules (no,
> not the PCMCIA or USB bricks used for laptops) that can be interchanged
> with multiple devices, a good compromise seems to be Bluetooth to
> an el cheapo RAZR.

For data, yes, but having the device itself be the phone is more convenient-
one device to carry, one charger to pack traveling, etc.

> And yes, that's what I'd like to see; a detachable radio module, with
> a form factor similar to a battery, that could be inserted into any
> phone or other mobile device.  No more need to have a collection of
mobile phones for different areas; instead,
> you have one phone and a collection of radio modules as needed.

That would be cool in the short term, but I suspect technology will
eventually make it unnecessary- I assume radio modules will eventually go
the way of the DSP chip (those programmable all purpose chips that do
sound, modem, fax, etc.)  Someday we'll probably see a flashable radio chip
that can adapt to whatever frequencies are needed, and whatever protocol
(within reason.)  The various firmware upgrades could be sold to end users
to cover the appropriate licensing fees for the protocol flashed.

> Nobody offers that now.  But I rather strongly suspect that Nokia et al
> will do so long before Apple does.

Agreed.
Larry - 22 Jun 2008 00:54 GMT
> For data, yes, but having the device itself be the phone is more
> convenient-
>  one device to carry, one charger to pack traveling, etc.
>  

I disagree.  If I'm working, I don't want to HAVE to carry around and
talk into a fragile tablet with fragile touchscreen.  The slide or
folding tiny phone is much more convenient.  Also, many times it is
crazy to have to carry a tablet, just to have a phone.  All dressed
up for some occasion and carrying ANY tablet phone to the wedding
looks and is, stupid.

When I do carry the tablet, I leave my phone in my watch
pocket....after all, it's just a BT aircard.  I'm very afraid one of
these days I'm going to forget it's there and put it in the
washer...not good.

I'm not sure what you said about an uncrippled phone/N800.  As soon
as you plug the carrier's SIM into any device, doesn't it take
control of what the device is and is not allowed to do?

No thanks.  I don't want "them" anywhere near my tablet's memory and
operating system.  Everyone here on sellular knows why....
Todd Allcock - 22 Jun 2008 04:49 GMT
> > For data, yes, but having the device itself be the phone is more
> > convenient-
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> up for some occasion and carrying ANY tablet phone to the wedding
> looks and is, stupid.

Ahh, bu that's the beatuy of GSM.  Those times I need to "slim down", my SIM
goes into a smaller, more styish phone.  In phone-hostile environments (the
beach) it goes into my ancient but tiny Nokia 8290.  The SIM card is the
"phone jack" of the cellular era- any handset pluged into it is MY phone on
MY account.

> When I do carry the tablet, I leave my phone in my watch
> pocket....after all, it's just a BT aircard.  I'm very afraid one of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> as you plug the carrier's SIM into any device, doesn't it take
> control of what the device is and is not allowed to do?

Of course not- the cellular provider might block some types of data access,
but that's no different than when connecting to the same provider via a
bluetooth phone.  The SIM is just a dumb 32k or 64k chip containing your
account ID number, some carrier lookup tables (i.e. "the name of system
'310-260' is 'T-Mobile' or 'your voicemail number is +18056377243', etc.)
and some user-accessible memory to store your phone book and received texts
(mostly a holdover from the ancient times when phones had little or no
memory of their own)- it doesn't "program" or control your phone in any way.

> No thanks.  I don't want "them" anywhere near my tablet's memory and
> operating system.  Everyone here on sellular knows why....

Again, the SIM is essentially the GSM version of an ESN- it tells the
system who you are- period.  If the device is unbranded (no carrier-
specific software) and unlocked, the carrier doesn't "control" it.  They CAN,
of course, control access to their network (block ports, etc.) but that's
no different from what a locked-down WiFi network can do.

This is a common misconception in the GSM world- that the SIM somehow has
magical phone-controlling properties.  It's no more magical than the
NAM/ESN chip built into analog phones that identified the phone to the
carrier, and stored the home system ID so the phone knew when to light up
the roaming indicator.
Larry - 22 Jun 2008 05:14 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in news:g3kick$d7c$1
@aioe.org:

> This is a common misconception in the GSM world- that the SIM somehow has
> magical phone-controlling properties.  It's no more magical than the
> NAM/ESN chip built into analog phones that identified the phone to the
> carrier, and stored the home system ID so the phone knew when to light up
> the roaming indicator.

Sellular carriers must be complete fools to allow their customers to have
phones on their systems they don't have total control over.  I find this
revelation simply amazing.  It's like a cable company with modems they
cannot cap with IPs they cannot control.

I find it hard to believe sellphone carriers are so stupid as not to design
in total feature control like CDMA phones all have with their carrier
kluged up crapware-in-ROM.
Todd Allcock - 22 Jun 2008 09:40 GMT
> > This is a common misconception in the GSM world- that the SIM somehow has
> > magical phone-controlling properties.  It's no more magical than the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> revelation simply amazing.  It's like a cable company with modems they
> cannot cap with IPs they cannot control.

Cellular carriers have control of the network- they don't need to control
devices.


> I find it hard to believe sellphone carriers are so stupid as not to design
> in total feature control like CDMA phones all have with their carrier
> kluged up crapware-in-ROM.

Certainly crippled carrier-branded GSM handsets exist, but you don't have
to buy them- you're free to buy, and use, unbranded units.
Larry - 22 Jun 2008 22:32 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in news:g3l39o$4pi$2
@aioe.org:

> Cellular carriers have control of the network- they don't need to control
> devices.

You're, obviously, not looking at it from THEIR side of the tower.  They
always want full control of everything, making damned sure whatever is left
running on the phone DOESN'T USE BANDWIDTH and does SELL PRODUCTS and
advertising.

Why do you think there's still BREW and its shitty DOS-like browser?!
Todd Allcock - 23 Jun 2008 02:21 GMT
> > Cellular carriers have control of the network- they don't need to control
> > devices.
>
> You're, obviously, not looking at it from THEIR side of the tower.

True- I'm looking at it from the current marketplace.  The CDMA carriers
keep a tighter reign over devices than the GSM carriers, at least at present.

> They
> always want full control of everything, making damned sure whatever is left
> running on the phone DOESN'T USE BANDWIDTH and does SELL PRODUCTS and
> advertising.

Which the GSM guys "control" on the network side (blocked ports/protocols)
or via restrictive Terms of Service.  Crippling low-end devices (limiting
bluetooth to headset profiles, or restricting unsigned apps from installing)
is done, but higher end devices are typically left alone.  Regardless, you
can Buy completely uncrippled devices directly from manufacturers or
resellers and bypass arrier handsets completely.


> Why do you think there's still BREW and its shitty DOS-like browser?!

Simple- because you "vote with your wallet" and choose a carrier that
authenticates users by handset rather than SIM card, limiting you to
devices they'll agree to activate.
Mark Crispin - 23 Jun 2008 06:26 GMT
> But if the iPhone's bluetooth wasn't crippled

Talking about uncrippled iPhone bluetooth is like talking about the
Republican landslide of November 2008: although some people would love to
see it happen, in all practicality it is extremely unlikely.  ;-)

>> Barring the advent of standardized detachable radio modules (no,
>> not the PCMCIA or USB bricks used for laptops) that can be interchanged
>> with multiple devices, a good compromise seems to be Bluetooth to
>> an el cheapo RAZR.
> For data, yes, but having the device itself be the phone is more convenient-
> one device to carry, one charger to pack traveling, etc.

I'm not so sure.  Sometimes all you want to carry is a phone, and the
smaller the better.  In such cases, an iToy is a brick, much less a
Windows Mobile smartphone, BlackBerry, or N800.

>> And yes, that's what I'd like to see; a detachable radio module, with
>> a form factor similar to a battery, that could be inserted into any
>> phone or other mobile device.
> That would be cool in the short term,

Indeed!

> but I suspect technology will
> eventually make it unnecessary- I assume radio modules will eventually go
> the way of the DSP chip (those programmable all purpose chips that do
> sound, modem, fax, etc.)  Someday we'll probably see a flashable radio chip
> that can adapt to whatever frequencies are needed, and whatever protocol
> (within reason.)

The problem that I see is the antenna.  A good antenna for 400 (and yes,
there is GSM 400 now...) is probably not good for 2100.

Otherwise, yes, software radios would be a great idea.  And SIM cards are
absoluely the right way to go.  Now, if only more phones supported
multiple SIMs.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Larry - 23 Jun 2008 14:41 GMT
>>> And yes, that's what I'd like to see; a detachable radio module, with
>>> a form factor similar to a battery, that could be inserted into any
>>> phone or other mobile device.
>> That would be cool in the short term,
>
> Indeed!

I have a detachable radio module on my N800.  It's called the Motorola ROKR
Z6m, a tiny little brick in my pocket.  I don't even have to plug it into
the N800, which is really cool.

If I were to change to some other system, I wouldn't have to replace the
expensive computer part, I just swap "detachable radio modules".

The module even plays MP3s, takes 2M pixel pictures on its tiny camera and
makes phone calls!  How cool is that?!

I can also connect the N800 to the module's memory, internal and microSD
card to move files in and out of it, mostly from its camera or for its MP3
player.  Playing music on the "detachable radio module" frees up CPU load
on the main computer N800 so it doesn't slow down my gaming...(c;
Larry - 20 Jun 2008 19:10 GMT
Oxford <apony@pasture.com> wrote in news:apony-6D6D60.09542020062008@n003-
000-000-000.static.ge.com:

> in hindsight, seems like marky's mommy wasn't a very good shopper for
> buying the poor selling, poor quality N800.

Oops, I forgot a "new" feature for the 3G iphoney.  I don't use my FM
radio, mostly because all there is to listen to on it in the USA is spam,
but here's how it works for "new" iphone users....(c;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guOXEw63jfg

The radio station database is constantly updated from licensing authorities
around the planet.

FM is ok, I guess, but Streamtuner is better....
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/streamtuner/

Oh, some of the other game emulators:
Gameboy Advanced - data off the carts
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/vgba/

Scumm VM - more game emulator
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/scummvm/

there's too many.  Here's where to start:'
http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/games/
Oxford - 21 Jun 2008 01:12 GMT
> Oops, I forgot a "new" feature for the 3G iphoney.  I don't use my FM
> radio, mostly because all there is to listen to on it in the USA is spam,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> there's too many.  Here's where to start:'
> http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/games/

you obviously haven't learned the term "PodCast"... since it makes ALL
FM Radio, poor sounding streaming... obsolete. Podcasts are the way all
news and information will be distributed, there is no stopping it at
this point.

Larry, I really feel sorry that you continue to live in the DARK.

FM Radio? Yikes!!!!

Get an iPhone and enjoy life!

-
Larry - 21 Jun 2008 03:43 GMT
Oxford <apony@pasture.com> wrote in news:apony-B5C0CC.18122520062008@n003-
000-000-000.static.ge.com:

> you obviously haven't learned the term "PodCast"... since it makes ALL
> FM Radio, poor sounding streaming... obsolete. Podcasts are the way all
> news and information will be distributed, there is no stopping it at
> this point.

So, tell us oh cheeky one, why is Iphone 2.0 coming out with an obsolete FM
radio?

It isn't even digital for our British friends.....
Oxford - 21 Jun 2008 05:24 GMT
> > you obviously haven't learned the term "PodCast"... since it makes ALL
> > FM Radio, poor sounding streaming... obsolete. Podcasts are the way all
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So, tell us oh cheeky one, why is Iphone 2.0 coming out with an obsolete FM
> radio?

there will be no fm radio, nor tv on any shipping apple product.

it wouldn't make any sense from a "quality" point of view.

if you lead a backwards, hillbilly life, you can add it later...
Mark Crispin - 21 Jun 2008 16:30 GMT
> there will be no fm radio, nor tv on any shipping apple product.

Apple's attempt to enter the TV market was quite embarassing, wasn't it.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Larry - 22 Jun 2008 01:01 GMT
> Apple's attempt to enter the TV market was quite embarassing, wasn't it.

Apple already has a TV that works quite well on wifi and will work on
Sellphone data as soon as Apple and ATT join the 20th century...

http://corp.orb.com/

Of course, ATT forbids streaming and Apple won't like you running
your own cable to your iPhone without paying per view to use it....
(c;)
Oxford - 22 Jun 2008 05:36 GMT
> > there will be no fm radio, nor tv on any shipping apple product.
>
> Apple's attempt to enter the TV market was quite embarassing, wasn't it.

What are you talking about? Apple doesn't even have a TV product. They
have an excellent wireless streaming to large TV Screen device, but they
haven't had a TV product since the mid 90's.

Some good reading here:

Seldom, if ever, do I write a column recommending a single product. But
today? Well, today I'm breaking that rule.

I've often asked the question, "Where should we display our photos so
others can view them?" Publishing is getting more and more competitive,
but now with the Internet, there are so many new ways to share our
photos. Cool!

The question I've been asking recently is, "Yes, but where do I view my
photos?" My answers, though multiple, were ultimately a bit depressing.
I view them first on the back of my camera as soon as I take them--great.
I gaze at them on my computer in my office as I work them in
Photoshop--amazing. I, and the rest of the world, can see them on my .Mac
or PBase sites--off the charts. With my inkjet printer, I can make
fabulous prints--but my walls are full, and my wife says a larger house
isn't an option.

I'm lucky enough to own a digital projector, which I purchased a few
years ago for a rather hefty sum. (They're less expensive now, but still
not cheap.) I use the projector when I teach but, truth be told, I just
don't set it up in my living room for personal viewing anymore than I'd
set up my slide projector in the days of film.

I really didn't have a good way to view my images in a large size at
optimal quality in a place that wasn't a workroom. (I'm guessing that
folks reading this column have their heads bobbing up and down in
agreement.)

Then, a few months ago, I was at the house of my Photoshop guru/friend,
Jack Davis. There, in his living room, on his flat-screen TV, was a
glorious montage of his images, all in high definition. Hundreds of
images moving at different speeds on different planes, twirling in
space--unreal!

"What is this?" I demanded.

"It's Apple TV," said Jack. "It's essentially a hard drive that attaches
to your television and plays your images in HD."

Fast-forward a few weeks, and here I am sitting in my living room
viewing hundreds of my own images on my flat-screen TV. Indeed, Apple TV
has turned the black hole that was my TV into a 24-hour art piece. All
day long, when I'm not viewing shows on the TV itself, Apple TV takes
over and runs my images at 20-second intervals, softly dissolving from
one to another.

I can break the images into separate folders if I want to view a
specific place or subject, change all kinds of parameters on how I view
them, including a "Ken Burns" effect to zoom and move on the photos.

Often, when Lynette and I sit down to watch a little TV in the evening,
we don't even get to the actual TV show. We just get lost for an hour
viewing images we love (or perhaps ones we had forgotten we even took).

Bottom line: For $229, you can buy a 40 GB Apple TV ($329 for 160 GB).
Plug in one HD cable, and it will show you all of your images in HD on
your flat-screen TV in a large size (mine is a 37-inch flat-screen), day
or night, in the privacy of your living room! And it's not just for Mac
folks; Apple TV will sync with almost any computer.

In my opinion, there's not a photographer on the planet who shouldn't
invest in one of these (okay, a bit of hyperbole, but I'm excited).
Apple TV has become my "final frame," if you will. This is where most of
my images will end up for my personal delight and enjoyment.

Not only can you view your own images on Apple TV (you upload them
through iTunes), but, if you have WiFi, you can access both the .Mac and
Flickr sites and view galleries from friends and family.

Now here's the final kicker. Apple didn't design Apple TV for
photographers. No, Apple designed it as a way to access tons of video
content. Personally, I think the whole photo side of Apple TV was
probably an afterthought. But what this means for you is that, besides
showing all your photos, Apple TV allows you to download hundreds of
movies, songs, podcasts and TV shows, as well as everything on YouTube.

Okay, there's my pitch. You won't see an ad for Apple TV in Outdoor
Photographer or any other photo magazine (as I said, I think the photo
part of it was an afterthought), but you can check it out on the Apple
website, www.apple.com/appletv/ 

It's an incredible product, and it has given me a wonderful new way to
delight in my images. Check it out.

Visit Dewitt Jones' website at www.dewittjones.com.

http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/content/2008/july/basic-jones.shtml?sr
=hotnews
 
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