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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / August 2008

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Good Bye BlackBerrry: HSBC is considering ditching the BlackBerry

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4phun - 14 Aug 2008 03:31 GMT
HSBC could order 200,000 iPhones | Tech News on ZDNet
Aug 13, 2008 ... Global banking giant HSBC is considering ditching the
BlackBerry and adopting Apple's iPhone as its standard staff mobile
device.

Aug 13, 2008 ... "We are actually reviewing iPhones from a HSBC Group
perspective ... and when I say that, I mean globally," HSBC's
Australia and New Zealand ...

Aug 13, 2008 ... The fact that a company like HSBC is even considering
the iPhone is testament to robust new Enterprise features in the new
2.0 firmware. ...

Aug 13, 2008 ... Worldwide bank HSBC's employees have long used
BlackBerries as the handset of choice, but rumor has it that they are
considering replacing ...

Analyst: iPhones flying off shelves at 95 per store per day
Aug 13, 2008 ... An HSBC regional CIO says the company is evaluating
the iPhone 3G for deployment to its global staff. This could
potentially be the largest ...

http://www.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/08/13/analyst-iphones-flying-
off-shelves-at-95-per-store-per-day


http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/13/banking-firm-hsbc-considering-iphone-more-ip
hone-sales-estimates/


http://news.zdnet.com/2424-9595_22-216006.html

http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.m
ozilla:en-US:official&hs=hCn&q=HSBC+iphones&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=news_group&res
num=1&ct=title

Richard B. Gilbert - 14 Aug 2008 04:06 GMT
> HSBC could order 200,000 iPhones | Tech News on ZDNet
> Aug 13, 2008 ... Global banking giant HSBC is considering ditching the
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.m
ozilla:en-US:official&hs=hCn&q=HSBC+iphones&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=news_group&res
num=1&ct=title

Why are you telling us this?  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!
Mike M - 14 Aug 2008 08:35 GMT
>> HSBC could order 200,000 iPhones | Tech News on ZDNet
>> Aug 13, 2008 ... Global banking giant HSBC is considering ditching the
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Why are you telling us this?  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
> have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!
Paranoid?!!!
Larry - 15 Aug 2008 00:44 GMT
"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in news:u-
2dnVxTJu21Pz7VnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@comcast.com:

> Why are you telling us this?  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
> have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!

He simply WON'T stop trolling the Verizon newsgroup.  I've asked him
nicely.
M-M - 15 Aug 2008 02:26 GMT
>  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
> have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!

Well, I was just given an iPod Touch (free with Mac computer purchase
with educational discount) and I must say it is quite cool. Being a
Verizon customer, I cannot use an iPhone but I wish I could.

Signature

m-m
http://www.mhmyers.com

Carl - 15 Aug 2008 03:52 GMT
>>  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
>> have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!
>
> Well, I was just given an iPod Touch (free with Mac computer purchase
> with educational discount) and I must say it is quite cool. Being a
> Verizon customer, I cannot use an iPhone but I wish I could.

I bought a touch for that very reason. Now that I've owned it for 3 weeks,
some of the glamour is beginning to wear off. My desire for an iPhone has
waned. It is a cool device though, but there are some things my BB does more
effectively and reliably.  Be patient. Wait for the BB Thunder due in the
Fall. You might be pleasantly pleased that you waited.  No personal offense
meant to iPhone people. It's a great and innovative device.
EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com - 17 Aug 2008 02:50 GMT
In alt.cellular.verizon Richard B. Gilbert <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:

> Why are you telling us this?  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
> have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!

Why wouldn't you have an iPhone?

Signature

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
    -- Bertrand Russel

Richard B. Gilbert - 17 Aug 2008 16:42 GMT
> In alt.cellular.verizon Richard B. Gilbert <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Why are you telling us this?  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
>> have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!
>
> Why wouldn't you have an iPhone?

I have a relatively new phone that works and does what I need it to!
I've read the directions and figured out how to use it.  I already have
the phone tools installed on my computer.  The phone is already loaded
with my contacts.  A new phone would be a waste of my time and money.

Clearly, some people see something desirable about the iPhone.  I'm not
among them!

In two to five years, I might be interested in a new phone.  Whenever
that day arrives, I may look at an iPhone.  If, on that day, there is
still an iPhone, it does what I need/want, and it is competitively
priced, I will consider buying one.
EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com - 26 Aug 2008 03:43 GMT
In alt.cellular.verizon Richard B. Gilbert <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
> > In alt.cellular.verizon Richard B. Gilbert <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Why are you telling us this?  Who the hell CARES?  A lot of us wouldn't
> >> have an iPhone if you GAVE it to us!
> >
> > Why wouldn't you have an iPhone?

> I have a relatively new phone that works and does what I need it to!
> I've read the directions and figured out how to use it.  I already have
> the phone tools installed on my computer.  The phone is already loaded
> with my contacts.  A new phone would be a waste of my time and money.

> Clearly, some people see something desirable about the iPhone.  I'm not
> among them!

> In two to five years, I might be interested in a new phone.  Whenever
> that day arrives, I may look at an iPhone.  If, on that day, there is
> still an iPhone, it does what I need/want, and it is competitively
> priced, I will consider buying one.

You said you wouldn't have one even if it were given to you.

Signature

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
    -- Bertrand Russel

Richard B. Gilbert - 26 Aug 2008 13:57 GMT
> In alt.cellular.verizon Richard B. Gilbert <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> In alt.cellular.verizon Richard B. Gilbert <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> You said you wouldn't have one even if it were given to you.

Today?  Certainly not.  I bought a Motorola RAZR V3m last December.
It's all the phone I need or want at the moment.  In the unlikely event
that I find I need more phone than what I have, I'll look at what's
available, pick the one that suits me best, and buy it.

Give me an iPhone today and it will be offered for sale on e-Bay tomorrow!
techwiz - 14 Aug 2008 23:38 GMT
> HSBC could order 200,000 iPhones | Tech News on ZDNet
> Aug 13, 2008 ... Global banking giant HSBC is considering ditching the
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&client=firefox-...

Very interesting.

I suspected this may happen sooner or later, the iPhone is a very
powerful device when you add your own custom software.
Larry - 15 Aug 2008 02:05 GMT
techwiz <McPherson.truck.2349@gmail.com> wrote in news:f63e231f-53a4-
41fe-84d5-f5730cb00e18@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:

> the iPhone is a very
> powerful device when you add your own custom software.

How so?  It has a very low resolution touchscreen with no stylus for
accuracy and fine input.  It has no character recognition that I know
of.  It has a poor finger keyboard for text input.  It has no Bluetooth
HID profile so one can add an external useful keyboard.  It has no port
to plug devices into and its Bluetooth prevents any use except headsets.

It has no cut and paste, a basic feature on any computing device.  
Hence, there is only one way to get:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?ovi=1&mqma
p.x=300&mqmap.y=75&mapdata=%252bKZmeiIh6N%252bI
gpXRP3bylMaN0O4z8OOUkZWYe7NRH6ldDN96YFTIUmSH3Q6
OzE5XVqcuc5zb%252fY5wy1MZwTnT2pu%252bNMjOjsHjvN
lygTRMzqazPStrN%252f1YzA0oWEWLwkHdhVHeG9sG6cMrf
XNJKHY6fML4o6Nb0SeQm75ET9jAjKelrmqBCNta%252bsKC
9n8jslz%252fo188N4g3BvAJYuzx8J8r%252f1fPFWkPYg%
252bT9Su5KoQ9YpNSj%252bmo0h0aEK%252bofj3f6vCP
from some app to Safari to bring up the map.
Because it only supports ONE app at a time, you cannot run the app this
URL came from and click and drag it into Safari to see the map, either.  
One of the most important common computer features is simply omitted for
some stupid reason.

It has no word processing capability as it has no usable keyboard for
word processing.

It has no spreadsheet capability so cannot be used as a number cruncher
other than the simplest of basic hand calculator calculations any $3
calculator from Dollar General does better with its real keyboard.

It cannot do complex calculations as it has no scientific calculator,
with or without a programming function.  It's not a science device with
no complex calculations.

It cannot display common video/audio formats used widely in business
such as Flash or most non-Apple video/audio formats.  It can't play the
Realvideo board meeting on a train because it has no Realplayer, plugin
or stand alone player.  It's media player is hobbled to sell iTunes
crap, hardly Business friendly.

It has no useful external memory, whatsoever.  You cannot load your
office files onto a memory card, USB plug, portable media or portable
hard drive so you are forced to expose the company to internet access
many business users simply cannot permit.  Webpage access to sensitive
company files, passwords and all, is just STUPID.

You cannot run specialized software written by your company IT
professionals on it because you are not allowed to install any useful
programs on it without exposing the company to some kind of security
breach at Apple Computers.  Even if you could get "permission" to
install the software, the software would be exposed to hacking in iTunes
or some kind of hidden app store Apple would have to setup for your
corporation.  Why take the risk?  It's insane just to have a girl
magnet.  Businessmen don't need a girl magnet.  They have money!

The Cisco users do report the VPN support seems to work and is easy to
configure, but what will you do with that unsupported file format once
you download it to the iPhone?  The document was created in Word,
contains 3 Excel spreadsheets full of numbers and the presentation that
goes with it is a Powerpoint presentation.  So, once you get it to the
iPhone, what can you do with it?  You can't review it, edit it, even
display it!  Worthless?

Check off the file formats BUSINESS, not Electronic Arts, uses every day
that the iPhone supports:
http://www.ace.net.nz/tech/TechFileFormat.html
Which App Store apps will read/edit/store your changes so you can VPN
them back to the system?

The XYZ Corp uses a lot of video presentations to go with its
Powerpoints.  I'd almost guarantee NONE of them are in H.264 or MP4
format, the only two formats iPhone plays.  What do you expect XYZ to
do, convert the whole 96TB library of videos JUST so the grunts in the
field can show them on an iPhone?  BUSINESS isn't going to BEND to the
iPhone.  BUSINESS buys hardware and software that plays what that
business uses on all other formats.  They have no time for "conversion".

Of course, with no removable media to store the video on in the first
place from the company PC on your desktop, all this is moot.  Try
sending a 3GB video file over iTunes.  What a joke!  Business has no
time for this crap.

It has no capability for any kind of video output that can be connected
to a large TV or monitor display so we can't use it at the meeting with
the clients, anyways.  If we're going to haul the big laptop, why do we
need an iPhone?  

Iphones play:
The Apple iPhone supports the following audio formats:
AAC (16 to 320 Kbps)
AIFF
AAC Protected (MP4 from iTunes Store)
MP3 (16 to 320 Kbps)
MP3 VBR
Audible (formats 2-4)
Apple Lossless
WAV

Which format did the CEO's little sales booster meeting get sent to you
in?  It will play basic MP3 files.  That might work if the company
doesn't use Realvideo/audio, as many of them do.  Noone gives a sh.t if
it plays WAV, Audible 2 or 4, AIFF or Apple Lossless.  

Cut and paste this URL into your Safari:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Motorola+S9&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8
&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&cid=
862264849236915779&oi=product_catalog_result&resnum=1
&ct=result&scoring=p
Motorola S9 is the finest headset I ever owned.  It's certainly the best
sellphone headset, too.  Why can't this Superplayer play audio through
the standard A2DP Bluetooth Stereo headphones?  Business will want
STEREO headphones so they can LISTEN to presentations DOWNLOADED from
parters as well as COMPETITORS.  Iphone won't download them and does a
piss poor job of playing them without A2DP support.  It IS fortunate you
don't need some proprietary Apple "adapter" so you can plug in a simple
stereo headphone.

These are valid points for business use.  N800 isn't a business machine,
either, but is much closer with its many ported Linux apps like Abiword,
Open Office, Gnumeric Spreasheet, Xournal for annotating PDF files,
plays any format business uses, including Realvideo and Realaudio files
and streaming.  N800 has no JAVA support....but the new Firefox 3 on it
will....(c;

Arrogance is fine with teenagers....but never with businessmen.
nospam - 15 Aug 2008 04:28 GMT
> techwiz <McPherson.truck.2349@gmail.com> wrote in news:f63e231f-53a4-
> 41fe-84d5-f5730cb00e18@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> How so?  It has a very low resolution touchscreen

actually it's one of the highest, at 163 pixels per inch, roughly
*double* that of many computer displays.

> with no stylus for
> accuracy and fine input.  

and nothing to lose.

> It has no character recognition that I know
> of.  

it can recognize chinese, but so what if it doesn't do recognition?

> It has a poor finger keyboard for text input.

actually it's fairly good.

> It has no Bluetooth
> HID profile so one can add an external useful keyboard.

currently, that's true.

> It has no port
> to plug devices into

there's a dock connector on the bottom.

> and its Bluetooth prevents any use except headsets.

currently, that's true.

> It has no cut and paste, a basic feature on any computing device.  

apple said they'd be adding it, but other features had a higher
priority.  there's also some indication that it may be in the next
firmware release.

> It has no word processing capability as it has no usable keyboard for
> word processing.

it wasn't intended to do that, but i did see an app that did text
editing in the store.

> It has no spreadsheet capability so cannot be used as a number cruncher
> other than the simplest of basic hand calculator calculations any $3
> calculator from Dollar General does better with its real keyboard.

there's at least one spreadsheet app available in the store.

> It cannot do complex calculations as it has no scientific calculator,

it *ships* with a scientific calculator.  if you are going to criticize
it, at least pick things that are actually valid.

> with or without a programming function.  It's not a science device with
> no complex calculations.

there are a number of calculators available, both rpn and aos, along
with hp clones.  

> It cannot display common video/audio formats used widely in business
> such as Flash or most non-Apple video/audio formats.  

adobe has stated that they're comitted to getting flash on it.

> It can't play the
> Realvideo board meeting on a train because it has no Realplayer, plugin
> or stand alone player.  

it's up to real to create a player for their proprietary format.

> It's media player is hobbled to sell iTunes
> crap, hardly Business friendly.

nonsense.  

> It has no useful external memory, whatsoever.  You cannot load your
> office files onto a memory card, USB plug, portable media or portable
> hard drive so you are forced to expose the company to internet access
> many business users simply cannot permit.  Webpage access to sensitive
> company files, passwords and all, is just STUPID.

nonsense.  it has plenty of internal memory, more than most people
actually use.  it can hold whatever office files one wants to bring and
there's no need to expose sensitive files.

> You cannot run specialized software written by your company IT
> professionals on it because you are not allowed to install any useful
> programs on it without exposing the company to some kind of security
> breach at Apple Computers.  

what ever gave you that idea?  all it takes is to sign up as an iphone
developer and there's no need to go thru apple to distribute it within
the company.

> Even if you could get "permission" to
> install the software,

no permission is required.

> the software would be exposed to hacking in iTunes
> or some kind of hidden app store Apple would have to setup for your
> corporation.  

wrong again.

> Why take the risk?  It's insane just to have a girl
> magnet.  Businessmen don't need a girl magnet.  They have money!

some of them even have brains.

> The Cisco users do report the VPN support seems to work and is easy to
> configure, but what will you do with that unsupported file format once
> you download it to the iPhone?  

what unsupported file format is that?

> The document was created in Word,
> contains 3 Excel spreadsheets full of numbers and the presentation that
> goes with it is a Powerpoint presentation.  So, once you get it to the
> iPhone, what can you do with it?  You can't review it, edit it, even
> display it!  Worthless?

iphone can display all of those.

> Check off the file formats BUSINESS, not Electronic Arts, uses every day
> that the iPhone supports:
> http://www.ace.net.nz/tech/TechFileFormat.html
> Which App Store apps will read/edit/store your changes so you can VPN
> them back to the system?

go look. there are nearly 2000 apps available.

> The XYZ Corp uses a lot of video presentations to go with its
> Powerpoints.  I'd almost guarantee NONE of them are in H.264 or MP4
> format, the only two formats iPhone plays.  What do you expect XYZ to
> do, convert the whole 96TB library of videos JUST so the grunts in the
> field can show them on an iPhone?  

youtube converted to h.264.

> BUSINESS isn't going to BEND to the
> iPhone.  BUSINESS buys hardware and software that plays what that
> business uses on all other formats.  They have no time for "conversion".

except that some businesses are.  hsbc is considering switching from
blackberry to iphone:
<http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/HSBC-could-order-200-000-iPho
nes/0,130061702,339291247,00.htm>

> Of course, with no removable media to store the video on in the first
> place from the company PC on your desktop, all this is moot.  Try
> sending a 3GB video file over iTunes.  What a joke!  Business has no
> time for this crap.

itunes has absolutely nothing to do with it.

> It has no capability for any kind of video output that can be connected
> to a large TV or monitor display so we can't use it at the meeting with
> the clients, anyways.

nonsense.  of course it can output to a tv.  where do you come up with
stuff?

> If we're going to haul the big laptop, why do we
> need an iPhone?  

different devices, for different purposes.

> Which format did the CEO's little sales booster meeting get sent to you
> in?  It will play basic MP3 files.  That might work if the company
> doesn't use Realvideo/audio, as many of them do.  

not that many, actually.  real is proprietary.

> Motorola S9 is the finest headset I ever owned.  It's certainly the best
> sellphone headset, too.  Why can't this Superplayer play audio through
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> don't need some proprietary Apple "adapter" so you can plug in a simple
> stereo headphone.

so it currently doesn't do a2dp. big deal.  

> These are valid points for business use.  

not really.

> Arrogance is fine with teenagers....but never with businessmen.

you haven't met many businessmen then.
4phun - 15 Aug 2008 14:07 GMT
> In article <Xns9AFADB2759D7Cnoonehome...@208.49.80.253>, Larry

> > BUSINESS isn't going to BEND to the
> > iPhone.  BUSINESS buys hardware and software that plays what that
> > business uses on all other formats.  They have no time for "conversion".
>
> except that some businesses are.  hsbc is considering switching from
> blackberry to iphone:

A hidden business benefit some are missing is the economics of scale.
As Apple takes a sophisticated piece of hardware and software and
produces millions of copies the price can drop to where the cost is
insignificant compared to the benefits business gets by adapting to an
easy to find tool. Right now there opportunities for new and under
employed programmers to identify and develop apps for a vertical
market that incorporates the iPhone. They can become wealthy in a
short period of time if they make the right choices and if they can
produce what is desired by businesses before anyone else grabs the
market. Look at the software already there just for the medical field.

Apple benefits if more businesses choose their hardware to replace
aging Windows XP boxes. Right now Apple is on track to past IBM in
total capitalization sometime early next year. Apple just blew past
Google and is still growing. The only way to kill Apple would be to
kill Jobs and hope they can not find a similar replacement with his
vision and management style. I suspect Job's death will be the end of
Apple and it will unwind after he dies.

The CEO of Verizon seems to hope that happens sooner rather than later
now that Verizon has to compete against the iPhone.

All he has to do is tell Verizon customers it is ok to buy an iPhone
for surfing the Internet, listening to Podcasts, reading push email,
and carrying all your office or college texts around, just carry your
friendly Verizon phone as a backup if needed.
Todd Allcock - 15 Aug 2008 18:29 GMT
> > except that some businesses are.  hsbc is considering switching from
> > blackberry to iphone:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> insignificant compared to the benefits business gets by adapting to an
> easy to find tool.

While true, it's device/platform agnostic.  All device pricing benefits
from economies of scale- RIM, for example, pumps out more units than any
smartphone manufacturer, so arguably they can leverage that better than
anyone.

>  Right now there opportunities for new and under
> employed programmers to identify and develop apps for a vertical
> market that incorporates the iPhone. They can become wealthy in a
> short period of time if they make the right choices and if they can
> produce what is desired by businesses before anyone else grabs the
> market. Look at the software already there just for the medical field.

True, but again, that's hardly new or unique.  Developers have built
custom/vertical apps for smartphones for years., and in-house developers
have long built organization-specific apps.


> Apple benefits if more businesses choose their hardware to replace
> aging Windows XP boxes.

Yet that's not likely to be a big result of iPhone enterprise deployment,
since Outlook/Exchange is an important part of Apple's first steps into
this market.  I doubt HSBC is considering "MobileMe" as their corporate e-
mail backbone!  ;-)

> The only way to kill Apple would be to
> kill Jobs and hope they can not find a similar replacement with his
> vision and management style. I suspect Job's death will be the end of
> Apple and it will unwind after he dies.

Sadly, I agree, but in some ways that'd be a fitting end for a company that
has benefitted so much from one man's guidance.  On the other hand,
Christianity gained more from Jesus' death than his life... ;-)

> Verizon seems to hope that happens sooner rather than later
> now that Verizon has to compete against the iPhone.

That story is nearly as apocryphal as the Al Gore "invented the internet"
quote.  Verizon's chief was essentially expressing the same theory we are-
Apple's success may only last as long as Jobs' major organs do.


> All he has to do is tell Verizon customers it is ok to buy an iPhone
> for surfing the Internet, listening to Podcasts, reading push email,
> and carrying all your office or college texts around, just carry your
> friendly Verizon phone as a backup if needed.

Alternately, all Apple has to do is add bluetooth DUN to the iPod Touch so
it allows an iPhone-like experience "Larry-style"- tethered to a BT
dumbphone in the user's back pocket.

You seem to forget that a great many customers, (though certainly not all,)
choose carrier first, and device second.  I know people who'd stick with
Verizon even if they only offered rotary-dial cellphones with no features,
rather than switch to a smaller-footprint carrier with snazzy phones.

Other users simply hate touchscreen input of any kind, and want to dial and
text with physical buttons- they won't buy an iPhone until a hard-keyboard
model emerges.

Different strokes, as they say...  Verizon has rode out many periods of not
having the "hot phone" of the moment in the past (IIRC, Cingular had the
RAZR as a 6 or 9 month exclusive) and does what any successful company does-
play to it's strengths.  In Verizon's case, thats' "the network."  I've
never heard of anyone flocking to Verizon primarily for the great handset
selection!  ;-)
Larry - 15 Aug 2008 18:43 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in news:g84ee1$fdf$1
@aioe.org:

> On the other hand,
> Christianity gained more from Jesus' death than his life... ;-)

.....a figure that mounting evidence suggests may never have existed except
in men's minds....

Have you seen the movie linking this diety to being Marc Anthony and
Cleopatra's son?  Same timeline, spent years from when he was 12 until he
was 30 in Nepal with Buddist monks and the monks STILL have the records to
prove it.  Came back with a plan to take back the lands lost with a new
religion instead of swords and mass murder, for a change.

Most interesting.
4phun - 16 Aug 2008 06:00 GMT
> > > except that some businesses are.  hsbc is considering switching from
> > > blackberry to iphone:

> Alternately, all Apple has to do is add bluetooth DUN to the iPod Touch so
> it allows an iPhone-like experience "Larry-style"- tethered to a BT
> dumbphone in the user's back pocket.

Todd, isn't the whole point of tethering that you have a relatively
crappy phone that can connect to the INTERNET but you really want the
real Internet on your laptop or tablet?

The iPhone for millions is proving to be a viable alternative to
booting up a laptop for many common tasks they want to quickly perform
at odd moments.

That is what is making it such a killer product. It isn't the phone
part, it is the shirt pocket friendly easy to use real Internet
connection people want with the iPhone.  That is without having to
tether or even carry around a relatively heavy laptop. Or even to
carry a small, but  bulky by comparison Nokia N800 table which also
must be tethered to someone's phone.

IMHO There is a lot of old school thinking that can not see the forest
but for all the trees in the way.
Todd Allcock - 16 Aug 2008 20:14 GMT
> > Alternately, all Apple has to do is add bluetooth DUN to the iPod Touch
> > so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> crappy phone that can connect to the INTERNET but you really want the
> real Internet on your laptop or tablet?

Actually the point of tethering is get internet access on any device that
doesn't have it where you are at the moment, using the phone you're already
paying for.

Since you said "All [Verizon's CEO] has to do is tell Verizon
customers it is ok to buy an iPhone
for surfing the Internet, listening to Podcasts, reading push email,
and carrying all your office or college texts around, just carry your
friendly Verizon phone as a backup if needed" you're implying Verizon
service works lots of places AT&T (and therefore the iPhone) DOESN'T, I was
suggesting that a Touch tethered to a Verizon phone (if made possible) would
give a better "iPhone" experience than an iPhone, since you'd have more
ubiquitous data connectivity.

> The iPhone for millions is proving to be a viable alternative to
> booting up a laptop for many common tasks they want to quickly perform
> at odd moments.

Perhaps, but the same can be said of dozens of similar products.  Besides,
it's not like those "millions" were walking around with laptops to get
directions, browse the web or check e-mail prior to buying an iPhone.  They
were using Blackberries or Treos, or not doing those things.

Commercials and brochures aside, there is still no task an iPhone performs
that wasn't possible without one.

> That is what is making it such a killer product. It isn't the phone
> part, it is the shirt pocket friendly easy to use real Internet
> connection people want with the iPhone.

Which bolsters MY argument- since the phone is the least impressive part, a
tetherable iPod Touch would be preferable, since you'd have the iPhone
goodies on the carrier (and data plan) of your choice, instead of being
locked into AT&T and a $30 iPhone dataplan.

> That is without having to
> tether or even carry around a relatively heavy laptop. Or even to
> carry a small, but  bulky by comparison Nokia N800 table which also
> must be tethered to someone's phone.

Again, you missed my point- I was talking about tethering an iPod Touch to a
phone that worked "everywhere" as alternative to carrying two phones (and
therefore two monthly service plans.)

> IMHO There is a lot of old school thinking that can not see the forest
> but for all the trees in the way.

I think you're calling the wrong guy "old school."  I've been using mobile
devices as laptop replacement ever since I started tethering my Casio E-100
(circa 2000) to an IR equipped Nokia 7160 cellphone, or used a CompactFlash
56k dialup modem.  The state of the art (for both mobile devices and
laptops) has come a long way in eight years!

Ironically, we get different messages from our two resident shills- you tell
us the iPhone is a laptop replacement for "common tasks" and Oxford tells us
"just use your MacBook" whenever confronted with a common task the iPhone
can't handle!  (And frankly, unless you've jailbroken it, the iPhone wasn't
even a contender as a laptop replacement until DataCase was released a
couple of days ago!)
Larry - 15 Aug 2008 18:50 GMT
4phun <vic.healey@gmail.com> wrote in news:cbda194c-e09d-4ed6-aa70-
046eaf9b2b91@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:

> A hidden business benefit

Your credibility went to sh.t telling me how fast it would read a FLASH
speedtest.....
Larry - 15 Aug 2008 18:49 GMT
>> How so?  It has a very low resolution touchscreen
>
> actually it's one of the highest, at 163 pixels per inch, roughly
> *double* that of many computer displays.

Why would it have such a high resolution touchscreen with a pointing
device as big as your finger?  That's crazy.  With a finger, there's no
way, even FruitFones, can figure out where you're pointing your big
meathook.

>> with no stylus for
>> accuracy and fine input.  
>
> and nothing to lose.

Simple test and observation.....

Dip your finger in an ink bottle to wet the end of it.....
Make a period on a piece of paper with printed text on it like the one
on a typewriter.

Which of the thousands of pixels, if what you say about its
TOUCHSCREEN's TOUCH resolution is true, are you pointed at with that
meathook with the big flat end?

Fingers are really shitty pointing devices on a high resolution
touchpad....like your laptop.

>> It has no character recognition that I know
>> of.  
>
> it can recognize chinese, but so what if it doesn't do recognition?

It really won't matter....unless you have a stylus screen, anyways.  You
can't write on it with your meathook.

>> It has a poor finger keyboard for text input.
>
> actually it's fairly good.

Bullshit.  NONE of the touchscreen keyboards is any good for entering
text.  If it were, your desktop computer would have a touchscreen.

>> It has no port
>> to plug devices into
>
> there's a dock connector on the bottom.

Which keyboard, hard drive, memory plug, serial port do I plug into this
wonderful proprietary port?  It's proprietary for a reason...to prevent.


>> It has no cut and paste, a basic feature on any computing device.  
>
> apple said they'd be adding it, but other features had a higher
> priority.  there's also some indication that it may be in the next
> firmware release.

What "indication"?  I see a wide variety screaming for it, but no
response at all from the arrogant company.

>> It has no word processing capability as it has no usable keyboard for
>> word processing.
>
> it wasn't intended to do that, but i did see an app that did text
> editing in the store.

But, once again, this is NOT an "enterprise tool".  It's a toy.  Every
businessman on the planet needs word processing, and not just for 150
byte love/screw messages to his secretary/lover, either.  He needs to be
able to READ text files in STANDARD, not proprietary, formats used by
BUSINESS, not teenagers.  That format is WORD and PDF.  He needs to EDIT
those formats and make margin notations.  Then, he needs to be able to
send the edited format back to his office for resolution.  In short, he
needs a LAPTOP COMPUTER with a REAL KEYBOARD and REAL WORD PROCESSING
software.  iToys aren't going to change that......and....more
important....

He needs that laptop to be ON THE NET, either tethered to a sellphone or
on its own aircard.....and iPhone has no tethering because of ATT's
hobbling.

>> It has no spreadsheet capability so cannot be used as a number
>> cruncher other than the simplest of basic hand calculator
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> there are a number of calculators available, both rpn and aos, along
> with hp clones.  

I didn't see that.  My apologies.....

>> It cannot display common video/audio formats used widely in business
>> such as Flash or most non-Apple video/audio formats.  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> it's up to real to create a player for their proprietary format.

No, it's not.  It's up to APPLE to make a DEAL with REAL to get Real to
port the player to it....exactly what Nokia did with my N800 tablet.  
The same deal was made with Skype for VoIP.  Real isn't going to come on
their knees to beg Jobs to allow them to port Realplayer to it.  It
simply doesn't work like that.

>> It's media player is hobbled to sell iTunes
>> crap, hardly Business friendly.
>
> nonsense.

Then it will play the Powerpoint presentation from the main office in NY
while Mr Businessman is flying on Delta to Dallas??  What about the avi
movies of the last sales conference he missed because he was in Seattle
making a big sale that will keep the factory stoked until 2012?

nonsense, indeed.....it doesn't play standard formats BUSINESS is
addicted to!
 

>> It has no useful external memory, whatsoever.  You cannot load your
>> office files onto a memory card, USB plug, portable media or portable
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> actually use.  it can hold whatever office files one wants to bring
> and there's no need to expose sensitive files.

BUSINESS isn't "most people".  Business has vast databases of products
and numbers that must be constantly transferred from the mainframe to
the device, in realtime to special software written for Windows from
Business' IT department.  This software needs to be constantly running
IN BACKGROUND the iPhone is incapable of, even if it could run the
program, which it can't.  Business needs this data stored in large Excel
or Oracle files iPhone has no place to put.....gigabytes that fill a big
Laptop!  Business doesn't give a sh.t about audio and video CLIPS that
run 60 seconds or 3 minutes.  The sales meeting goes on for HOURS!  Even
if it COULD use its camera to RECORD the meeting, it has no place to
STORE the video file, which is the reason it does not make movies in the
first place.  The other problem is if it COULD store the 12GB video of
the sales meeting in Chicago, how would we get it to the PC or
mainframe, 3G?  3G doesn't do wifi.  Shall we send it at Starbucks?  
Hmm...Starbucks does about 1.5Mbps from its T-1 line when noone else is
using it.  1.5Mbps divided by 8 = 187KB/second.  12,000,000 KB video
divided by 187 = 17.82 HOURS to take it off the iPhone and put it on the
desktop at 1.5Mpbs, which would also be about the BEST 3G time.  I bet
ATT would have a fit!  They monitor every byte!

12GB would take almost an hour to put it on a hard drive from the 16GB
SDHC card in my N800 tablet's port, using the tablet's reversible USB
2.0 direct to the hard drive.  Plug the card into Windoze XP and that
time triples.  But it's not 18 hours and I can SWAP CARDS in the tablet
and just be on my way, letting the PC grind it off the other card all
night while I'm not in the office....or in a hotel room to the laptop.

Without a REAL REMOVABLE MEMORY, iPhone will NEVER be a BUSINESS TOOL.  
Businesses, for security reasons, are NOT webapps!

>> You cannot run specialized software written by your company IT
>> professionals on it because you are not allowed to install any useful
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> developer and there's no need to go thru apple to distribute it within
> the company.

Signing up as an iphone developer means sharing the company's secret
software with Apple.  Why does Apple have to see what my company's IT
department is doing with the company's iPhone?  NO business is going to
share its company secrets with APPLE COMPUTER....no matter what!  The
software is top secret for a reason.  It's cryptographics is very top
secret.  They won't be sharing it with the toy manufacturer to look at
and spread around.

>> Even if you could get "permission" to
>> install the software,
>
> no permission is required.

Copy secret company files to the device.....
Click RUN to install and operate it.....
Now we find out there are secret URLs and server access to the device
via its OS in ROM.  NO COMPANY is going to SHARE its secrets with a
device that has built-in company spyware.  They uninstall Micro$oft's
company spyware before putting the first program on their desktops and
laptops.  Business is, with good reasons, VERY paranoid about computer
companies and software companies.

>> The Cisco users do report the VPN support seems to work and is easy
>> to configure, but what will you do with that unsupported file format
>> once you download it to the iPhone?  
>
> what unsupported file format is that?

Pick one....Powerpoint, Avi, DivX, Flash, JAVA, Word, Excel, and on and
on.  Listing what it will play is easy....

>> The document was created in Word,
>> contains 3 Excel spreadsheets full of numbers and the presentation
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> iphone can display all of those.

Business doesn't need to display it.  Business needs to EDIT AND CREATE
it.

>> Check off the file formats BUSINESS, not Electronic Arts, uses every
>> day that the iPhone supports:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> go look. there are nearly 2000 apps available.

....nice deflection.  2000 apps, how many BUSINESS apps?  How many
flashlights?  The IT department at XYZ does NOT run external apps from
companies it never heard of and doesn't completely trust.  It writes
apps to play on STANDARDIZED hardware under STANDARDIZED operating
systems like Linux or Windows XP.  Hell, even Micro$oft can't get them
to buy VISTA because some idiot at M$ made the decision VISTA was not
going to run XP software!  So, IT buys XP machines, not Vista.  It buys
Linux machines it can DEPEND on because they integrate with the
company's Linux servers and networks.  Even IBM uses Linux because
THAT'S WHAT BUSINESS IT DEPARTMENTS WANT!

>> The XYZ Corp uses a lot of video presentations to go with its
>> Powerpoints.  I'd almost guarantee NONE of them are in H.264 or MP4
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> youtube converted to h.264.

Read the paragraph just below this line......

>> BUSINESS isn't going to BEND to the
>> iPhone.  BUSINESS buys hardware and software that plays what that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> <http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/HSBC-could-order-200-000-iPh
> o nes/0,130061702,339291247,00.htm>

HSBC uses blackberry for simple email and text messaging over TRUSTED
Blackberry servers it has used for years and years.  Blackberry's
greatest asset for Business users is that TRUST.  Blackberry has worked
very hard to earn and keep that trust, too.

Blackberry's are only for email and text messaging, not the laptop
replacement you all think Iphone can provide.

>> Of course, with no removable media to store the video on in the first
>> place from the company PC on your desktop, all this is moot.  Try
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> nonsense.  of course it can output to a tv.  where do you come up with
> stuff?

I must have missed it.  WHERE is the TV interface port on the iPhone
where I can plug in a video monitor or NTSC TV set or HDMI plug?  Is
there an adapter for the ipod port on the bottom?

Good luck seling this to business....

Notice I took off the Verizon newsgroup....Why do you persist in
propagating iphone bullshit to Verizon?
nospam - 15 Aug 2008 21:04 GMT
> >> How so?  It has a very low resolution touchscreen
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> way, even FruitFones, can figure out where you're pointing your big
> meathook.

sharp detailed output.  

> >> It has a poor finger keyboard for text input.
> >
> > actually it's fairly good.
>
> Bullshit.  NONE of the touchscreen keyboards is any good for entering
> text.  If it were, your desktop computer would have a touchscreen.

hyperbole.

> >> It has no port
> >> to plug devices into
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Which keyboard, hard drive, memory plug, serial port do I plug into this
> wonderful proprietary port?  It's proprietary for a reason...to prevent.

the pinouts are available and there are a number of third party devices
that use the ipod docking port.  the obvious ones are chargers and fm
transmitters, but some of the more unusual ones (at least for the ipod)
include a breathalyzer.

> >> It has no cut and paste, a basic feature on any computing device.  
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> What "indication"?  I see a wide variety screaming for it, but no
> response at all from the arrogant company.

iphone developers have found evidence of it in the developer seeds of
the latest firmware update.  

> >> It has no word processing capability as it has no usable keyboard for
> >> word processing.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> software.  iToys aren't going to change that......and....more
> important....

then get a laptop.  the iphone is not intended to *replace* a laptop,
just as a laptop is not intended to replace a desktop (most people have
both).

> > it's up to real to create a player for their proprietary format.
>
> No, it's not.  

actually, it is.

> It's up to APPLE to make a DEAL with REAL to get Real to
> port the player to it....exactly what Nokia did with my N800 tablet.  
> The same deal was made with Skype for VoIP.  Real isn't going to come on
> their knees to beg Jobs to allow them to port Realplayer to it.  It
> simply doesn't work like that.

if real sees a business opportunity, they'll jump on it.  perhaps you
overestimate the need for it.

> BUSINESS isn't "most people".  Business has vast databases of products
> and numbers that must be constantly transferred from the mainframe to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> or Oracle files iPhone has no place to put.....gigabytes that fill a big
> Laptop!  

so all businesses use excel and oracle?  every single one?

> Business doesn't give a sh.t about audio and video CLIPS that
> run 60 seconds or 3 minutes.  The sales meeting goes on for HOURS!  Even
> if it COULD use its camera to RECORD the meeting, it has no place to
> STORE the video file, which is the reason it does not make movies in the
> first place.  

there's sufficient storage and there is at least one video app,
although it's for jailbroken phones at the moment.  and if the meeting
is that important, get a traditional digital video camera.  the iphone
does not have to do every possible thing to be a successful product.

> The other problem is if it COULD store the 12GB video of
> the sales meeting in Chicago, how would we get it to the PC or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> desktop at 1.5Mpbs, which would also be about the BEST 3G time.  I bet
> ATT would have a fit!  They monitor every byte!

first of all, at&t doesn't monitor every byte and the iphone includes
an *unlimited* data plan (at least in the usa).  second, connect the
iphone to a computer via usb and transfer the data.  third, you could
use the app you chastised the other day.  it does *exactly* what you
claim is so vital, and that's filesharing between the iphone and any
other computer, wirelessly.

> 12GB would take almost an hour to put it on a hard drive from the 16GB
> SDHC card in my N800 tablet's port, using the tablet's reversible USB
> 2.0 direct to the hard drive.  Plug the card into Windoze XP and that
> time triples.  But it's not 18 hours and I can SWAP CARDS in the tablet
> and just be on my way, letting the PC grind it off the other card all
> night while I'm not in the office....or in a hotel room to the laptop.

or just plug the iphone into a usb port.

> Without a REAL REMOVABLE MEMORY, iPhone will NEVER be a BUSINESS TOOL.  
> Businesses, for security reasons, are NOT webapps!

nonsense.  

> >> You cannot run specialized software written by your company IT
> >> professionals on it because you are not allowed to install any useful
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Signing up as an iphone developer means sharing the company's secret
> software with Apple.  

no it doesn't.

> Why does Apple have to see what my company's IT
> department is doing with the company's iPhone?  

they don't have to see what your it department is doing.

> >> Even if you could get "permission" to
> >> install the software,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> laptops.  Business is, with good reasons, VERY paranoid about computer
> companies and software companies.

then they should be glad that there's a way to block applications that
send location data without the user knowing about it.  you wouldn't
want your secret whereabouts made known, now would you?

> >> The Cisco users do report the VPN support seems to work and is easy
> >> to configure, but what will you do with that unsupported file format
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Pick one....Powerpoint, Avi, DivX, Flash, JAVA, Word, Excel, and on and
> on.  Listing what it will play is easy....

pick only one?  ok, i'll pick word.  supported.  i'm feeling lucky so
i'll pick two.  powerpoint.  also supported.  

> The IT department at XYZ does NOT run external apps from
> companies it never heard of and doesn't completely trust.  It writes
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> company's Linux servers and networks.  Even IBM uses Linux because
> THAT'S WHAT BUSINESS IT DEPARTMENTS WANT!

linux has a very small market share (smaller than mac os x), so not too
many businesses want it.  and once again, an it department can write
whatever they want for the iphone and deploy it internally, without
apple needing to see it.  why is this so difficult to accept?

> > except that some businesses are.  hsbc is considering switching from
> > blackberry to iphone:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> greatest asset for Business users is that TRUST.  Blackberry has worked
> very hard to earn and keep that trust, too.

and the iphone now supports microsoft exchange.  your point?

> Blackberry's are only for email and text messaging, not the laptop
> replacement you all think Iphone can provide.

so blackberries can't edit powerpoint or excel documents?  oh no!  they
must be a toy destined to fail.

> >> It has no capability for any kind of video output that can be
> >> connected to a large TV or monitor display so we can't use it at the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> where I can plug in a video monitor or NTSC TV set or HDMI plug?  Is
> there an adapter for the ipod port on the bottom?

all that's needed is an adapter cable for either composite or component
video.

<http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1454>
David Moyer - 17 Aug 2008 14:30 GMT
> > actually it's one of the highest, at 163 pixels per inch, roughly
> > *double* that of many computer displays.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> way, even FruitFones, can figure out where you're pointing your big
> meathook.

no larry, learn how the iphone multi-touch screen (patented) process
works. study the 1st & 2nd graphics here:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/iphone3.htm
Larry - 17 Aug 2008 15:44 GMT
David Moyer <davmoy@world.com> wrote in news:48a8280d$0$89876$815e3792
@news.qwest.net:

>> > actually it's one of the highest, at 163 pixels per inch, roughly
>> > *double* that of many computer displays.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/iphone3.htm

Capacitive touch screens are on every kiosk at the airport.  Iphone isn't
new!  It's why you can't make a phone call with your gloves on.  If it had
a real touch screen, you could.

What's so fascinating about a device with a capacitive screen?  Big deal.
David Moyer - 17 Aug 2008 19:27 GMT
> > http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/iphone3.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What's so fascinating about a device with a capacitive screen?  Big deal.

it's not a simple touch-screen larry, it's a multi-touch screen. learn
the difference.
Larry - 18 Aug 2008 04:58 GMT
>> > http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/iphone3.htm
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> it's not a simple touch-screen larry, it's a multi-touch screen. learn
> the difference.

Are you fascinated with that little two fingered zoomer?  You need to get
out more.  There's a whole other world outside!

Pray tell us what is SO fascinating about spreading your fingers, in
anything that doesn't have a labia, that is?
Ness-Net - 16 Aug 2008 06:21 GMT
Oops!! Maybe not...

Spotty wireless broadband connectivity for some of Apple's
new iPhones most likely results from a hardware problem
introduced during mass production

tests conducted by unnamed experts that showed some handsets'
sensitivity to 3G network signals is well below the level specified in
the 3G standard.

Since the launch of the next-generation iPhone, Apple's message
boards have been flooded with complaints of dropped calls and poor
3G connectivity indicated by few or no "bars" on the phone's display

Some users said they performed side-by-side tests and found that the
iPhone had connectivity problems in locations where 3G phones from
other manufacturers did not.
Ness-Net - 16 Aug 2008 06:24 GMT
http://www.americasnetwork.com/americasnetwork/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=5424
43#Top1

4phun - 16 Aug 2008 07:25 GMT
On Aug 16, 1:24 am, "Ness-Net" <richard.nod...@nessnet.spam.com>
wrote:
> http://www.americasnetwork.com/americasnetwork/article/articleDetail....

That is going to be fixed in September by Apple with a firmware update
according to a news release yesterday.

For now just turn off 3G when you don't need the high speed AT&T 3G
data function and the iPhone  will permanently switch to AT&T's other
network for more reliable voice calls.

It is a simple click in settings under Network.
Larry - 16 Aug 2008 12:42 GMT
4phun <vic.healey@gmail.com> wrote in news:db4614b1-151f-462b-83ae-
0685b5cee3ff@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> For now just turn off 3G when you don't need the high speed AT&T 3G
> data function and the iPhone  will permanently switch to AT&T's other
> network for more reliable voice calls.
>
> It is a simple click in settings under Network.

How sad....
Ness-Net - 16 Aug 2008 20:42 GMT
On Aug 16, 1:24 am, "Ness-Net" <richard.nod...@nessnet.spam.com>
wrote:
> http://www.americasnetwork.com/americasnetwork/article/articleDetail....

That is going to be fixed in September by Apple with a firmware update
according to a news release yesterday.

For now just turn off 3G when you don't need the high speed AT&T 3G
data function and the iPhone  will permanently switch to AT&T's other
network for more reliable voice calls.

It is a simple click in settings under Network.

Sorry fanBOY - wrong.....

Let me hold your hand and explain.

"from a hardware problem introduced during mass production"

No hardware issue is going to be fixed by a firmware update.
Firmware is STILL software.

Face it - your beloved iPhone (or the initial run anyway) is defective.
In order to actually fix them, Apple is going to have to eat crow and exchange
them.
4phun - 16 Aug 2008 22:48 GMT
On Aug 16, 3:42 pm, "Ness-Net" <richard.nod...@nessnet.spam.com>
wrote:

> On Aug 16, 1:24 am, "Ness-Net" <richard.nod...@nessnet.spam.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> In order to actually fix them, Apple is going to have to eat crow and exchange
> them.

Oh Boy Oh boy I can't wait!

But wait a minute, Samsung uses the same chip and they updated the
chip with new software? Why can't Apple do the same thing? The
Intferon 3G chip is programmable!

The Germans are not that dumb to produce a chip that could not be
field upgradeable, though they did blow the last world war when they
were winning.

BTW why would Russia feel it was ok to use nukes on Poland as
punishment and not in Georgia?
You have to think a bit to come up with the correct answer.

Clue, why does Iran need nukes?
Mike Marquis - 17 Aug 2008 01:32 GMT
Which Samsung phone had this problem and solution? I have a blackjack II and
am experiencing random 3G connectivity issues and would benefit from
details.

Mike

On Aug 16, 3:42 pm, "Ness-Net" <richard.nod...@nessnet.spam.com>
wrote:
> "4phun" <vic.hea...@gmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:db4614b1-151f-462b-83ae-0685b5cee3ff@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> exchange
> them.

Oh Boy Oh boy I can't wait!

But wait a minute, Samsung uses the same chip and they updated the
chip with new software? Why can't Apple do the same thing? The
Intferon 3G chip is programmable!

The Germans are not that dumb to produce a chip that could not be
field upgradeable, though they did blow the last world war when they
were winning.

BTW why would Russia feel it was ok to use nukes on Poland as
punishment and not in Georgia?
You have to think a bit to come up with the correct answer.

Clue, why does Iran need nukes?
Ness-Net - 19 Aug 2008 06:13 GMT
But wait a minute, Samsung uses the same chip and they updated the
chip with new software? Why can't Apple do the same thing? The
Intferon 3G chip is programmable!

http://www.pcworld.com/article/149929/article.html?tk=nl_dnxnws

"Windsor also said that it's unlikely the problem, if it is chip-based, could
be fixed by a software update from Apple. "

"Is everyone convinced a firmware update to the iPhone will do the trick?
Nope."

"Gold, for example, said he doubts that a firmware fix is the answer. "I'd be
surprised if it is as simple as a firmware upgrade of the chip, so it is more
likely that existing devices will have this defect forever," he wrote in an e-mail
to Computerworld."
Larry - 16 Aug 2008 12:37 GMT
"Ness-Net" <richard.nodamn@nessnet.spam.com> wrote in news:5q-
dnX34FIFt_jvVnZ2dnUVZ_r_inZ2d@giganews.com:

> Oops!! Maybe not...
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> iPhone had connectivity problems in locations where 3G phones from
> other manufacturers did not.

It would also be prudent to look at where the ANTENNAS are placed in
this box.  The antenna connectors suggest the antennas are in the
plastic back, which would have the phone radiating in a very directive
way through your RF-absorbing hand.  Many phones suffer from this pretty
girly nonsense, rather than have a proper antenna that gets the RF away
from the resistive human sucking up the signals...both ways.

You guys with iPhones in areas with less than full scale signal try
something for us......

place the iphone on a desk in an upright position keeping your hands
away from the back.  Hold it by the edges.  Note the signal strength on
the bar meter.

Ok, now, WITHOUT MOVING THE PHONE AT ALL, wrap your hand around the back
of it in the normal holding position you'd use to make a call.  Watch
the signal bars.  Try different positions of your hand while holding the
phone steady on the desk without turning or moving it and see if you can
find a position where the signal is minimal, as low as it will go.  

Your hand is at the antenna, absorbing the signal.

When you get in a position where the phone starts to balk talking with
someone, take your hand away from this antenna location and hold the
phone in your fingertips by only its edges, leaving the back panel
plastic unobstructed.  TURN yourself, and the phone, on your vertical
axis because I cannot imagine the antennas in this phone not being very
directional.  Out the back of the phone, the antennas must be pointed
that way.  Through the PC board, battery, display electronics and front
radiation will be poor to nearly non-existant.

iPhone looks to have a virtual panel antenna, which is very directional
off the surface of the panel.
http://www.criterioncellular.com/antennas/planarpanelantennas.html
Here's a panel antenna by Andrew, one of the best antenna companies on
the planet.  Look at the specs of its vertical and horizontal beamwidth.  
That's where it's 7db gain comes from....a reflective surface behind the
piece of PC board the antennas are etched upon.  Your iPhone doesn't
have this directional phased array over a planar surface, just one
element.  The radiation towards your ear, as you use the phone, is
absorbed by all the electronics on the PC board, not reflected back out
to make a directional array as this.

Here's the radiation patterns of a proper panel antenna array of many
phased dipoles:
http://www.pow.za.net/panel.html
Notice the deep nulls where no signal goes off in that direction.  This
antenna is on the 2400 Mhz wifi band.

Dipole antennas working against a metal groundplane make good
directional antennas.  Here's a homebrew wifi antenna in a dish:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~elepal/antenna1.html
Now, compare that antenna with the dipole antenna buried in the plastic
back of the iPhone.  In this type of antenna, L/4, the quarter
wavelength distance from the element to the reflector disk is very
critical at making a good pattern.  As you move the plane in towards the
element, the single lobe of the antenna splits into 2, 4, 8, 16 smaller
lobes, which is, probably, more reality in the very thin iPhone's
reflective PC board/battery nearly pressed against the dipole element
inside the plastic back.

In any event, pretty isn't functional for good RF radiation between you
and the cell.  Sellphone companies, a couple of phone generations ago,
got rid of the usable external antenna connectors attempting to make the
phones have less and less effective radiated power to jam the dense
cells in the cities, at the expense of RANGE when the cells are far
apart.  Call dropping is normal with such phones, including iPhone.

I've seen no specification as to iPhones maximum RF power output.  The
new generation seems hell bent on limiting power to 120-150 milliwatt,
almost no power output at all.  At these power levels, none of them has
any decent range as there's almost no power to begin with.

Good advertising and Steve Jobs are no match for PHYSICS and common
sense.
Larry - 16 Aug 2008 12:42 GMT
"Ness-Net" <richard.nodamn@nessnet.spam.com> wrote in news:5q-
dnX34FIFt_jvVnZ2dnUVZ_r_inZ2d@giganews.com:

> Oops!! Maybe not...

Along the lines of this antenna problem in iPhone......

If the antenna in iPhone IS, in fact, directional perpendicular to the
plane of the plastic back, take a look at it in this perspective while you
are using it as a handheld computer.  Where is the antenna pointing?

If you are holding it so you can see its screen, any RF coming out the back
of the iphone is POINTED AT THE GROUND...not at the towers.  If it's laying
on a desk, it's pointed into the stuff in the drawer under the desktop and
at the floor, not at the towers.

Can we see a problem here if the towers aren't 500 yards from the desk?

RF isn't magic.  It also isn't digital.....
 
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