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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / September 2008

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Battery Life of cell phones

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Ron - 30 Aug 2008 13:38 GMT
It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
YEARS.

So at 15 months age I discover my batteries lasting barely loWYou
about to head out?
nger than 1 day, but when new they lasted 4 days.

For a Sony/Ericsson w300i, the ATT website says a replacement Lithium
battery is $59.99 but they are out of stock.

At Amazon.com they are $4.17 and in stock.
Larry - 30 Aug 2008 17:08 GMT
>   It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
> only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> about to head out?
> nger than 1 day, but when new they lasted 4 days.

YOU are the one killing your Lithium-Ion or Lithium-Polymer batteries by
not understanding how to maintain them properly......

Sellphone bois just love to show their dicks by bragging how long their
sellphone will run between charges....a week, a month, etc.  This penis
envy is what kills the Li-xx batteries very prematurely.

Unlike Ni-Cd or Ni-Mh rechargeables that SHOULD be fully discharged at
some interval and stored in a discharged state, Li-XX batteries are more
like your lead acid car battery.  Deep discharging them without really
good reason except vanity consumes them in short order.

Inside each Li-xx battery is a custom IC that controls the battery's
charge and discharge cycle.  You don't ever see, I hope, your sellphone
go "dim" from a dead battery, because the IC in the battery is set to
prevent you discharging it past about 50% of its capacity, half
discharged.  This is the only way to prevent permanent damage, which
deep cycling a Li-xx battery does, irreparably.

If you'd like to get 4, 5, even 7 or 8 years out of one battery, the
solution is very simple....never deep discharge it.  Plug it in at every
opportunity and recharge it until the IC cuts off the charge, even
though you've only used it a couple of hours and it shows full scale on
the meter.  The chemistry just loves to be float charged, just like lead
acid does, but for a different reason.

I have an old 120GB MP3 player that's going on 6 years old.  It's a
Digital Mind Xclef 500 and, though simple, is still my favorite because
of its sheer monsterous memory that can store days of music without
playing the same song over.  Even today, 120GB is pretty large.  It has
no DRM or nanny games you boys know I hate.  Plugged into any PC,
Windoze treats it as just another external hard disk drive and will load
it accordingly.  It also records MP3, has an FM radio that actually
works great, and is just plain simple to use with its side-mounted
multifunction jog lever you can use driving without looking away from
the road.

The battery in it is a Korean Li-Ion hard wired into it like an iPhone.  
It has never been replaced and will still run it all day and have 60%
charge left when I plug it back in for tomorrow.  Its real leather case
has worn the paint off the aluminum case, I think improving its looks.  
It's a large, heavy beast that uses standard laptop drives even a
standard battery, if I ever need one.  Feed it +5VDC from any charger
and plug it into your stereo and you're ready for music!....

http://reviews.cnet.com/mp3-players/dmc-xclef-hd-500/4505-6490_7-
31212346.html
Mike S. - 31 Aug 2008 01:15 GMT
>  It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
>only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
>YEARS.

Properly manufactured and cared for, a good quality LiIon cell will retain
most of its capacity for about 3 years from date of ****MANUFACTURE***.

If your phone was shipped with an old battery, or you do things that ruin
LiIon cells like deep discharge, this could impact on the battery life.

> So at 15 months age I discover my batteries lasting barely longer than
> 1 day, but when new they lasted 4 days.
>
>For a Sony/Ericsson w300i, the ATT website says a replacement Lithium
>battery is $59.99 but they are out of stock.

Factory fresh, genuine item no doubt.

>At Amazon.com they are $4.17 and in stock.

Probably couterfeit and of unknown age.
Ron - 31 Aug 2008 01:40 GMT
>>  It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
>>only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
>>YEARS.
>
>Properly manufactured and cared for, a good quality LiIon cell will retain
>most of its capacity for about 3 years from date of ****MANUFACTURE***.

URL for that??

>If your phone was shipped with an old battery, or you do things that ruin
>LiIon cells like deep discharge, this could impact on the battery life.

Fine, but thats not the case.

>> So at 15 months age I discover my batteries lasting barely longer than
>> 1 day, but when new they lasted 4 days.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Factory fresh, genuine item no doubt.

Sarcasm unappreciated.

BTW AT&T sells third party car chargers, which in theory void the
warranty. I bought a genuine one with the cash bonus I got for getting
a Sony credit card.

>>At Amazon.com they are $4.17 and in stock.
>
>Probably couterfeit and of unknown age.

Fud based upon nothing. I've had better luck with the "no-name"
batteries than with the OEM ones; thank
you very little. I baby my battery according to SonyEricsson
instructions.

And even if I wanted a "genuine" battery, they are unavailable on the
AT&T site, and not even listed on the sonyericsson web site.

And I never saw a battery with a Date of Manufacture stamped on it.
Mike S. - 31 Aug 2008 13:51 GMT
>>>  It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
>>>only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>URL for that??

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

Anyone who reads the newsgroups they post to would have seen this type of
talk again and again. Li-Ion cells degrade constantly due to rising
internal resistance through oxidation. They die eventually, regardless of
how/whether you actually use them.

>>If your phone was shipped with an old battery, or you do things that ruin
>>LiIon cells like deep discharge, this could impact on the battery life.
>
>Fine, but thats not the case.

Just below you say that you don't have date information on your cells.
Here you say it's "not the care" that they are old.
Which is it?

>>> So at 15 months age I discover my batteries lasting barely longer than
>>> 1 day, but when new they lasted 4 days.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Fud based upon nothing.

Based on buying verifiable batteries (Nokia) from Amazon, proven upon
reciept to be fakes based on manufacturer web site criteria for
identifying fakes.

>I've had better luck with the "no-name"
>batteries than with the OEM ones; thank
>you very little.

You're welcome even less. Buying no-name brands is hit or miss. At worst
they can explode; in most cases they'll work to more or less success than
frehm OEM.

>I baby my battery according to SonyEricsson
>instructions.

Well, at least something in your rant makes sense.

>And even if I wanted a "genuine" battery, they are unavailable on the
>AT&T site, and not even listed on the sonyericsson web site.
>
>And I never saw a battery with a Date of Manufacture stamped on it.

Most of the time it's there; you simply don't know how to interpret it.
They make is difficult for obvious reasons. How, then, are you so sure
(above) that your battery isn't >3 years old?

Your rants make it clear that you're here to vent, not to solicit
knowledge or assistance from folks here. This, therefore, is my last
response.
Ron - 31 Aug 2008 14:25 GMT
>Your rants make it clear that you're here to vent, not to solicit
>knowledge or assistance from folks here. This, therefore, is my last
>response.

I'm sorry, posts here are not an authoritative source.

You are therefore the one ranting
if you can't or won't post a URL from a authoritative source to
support your exagerated claims of battery life.

If batteries were half as good as you claim, they  would be
warranted fror 2 years, now, wouldn't they ?

What I do know is charging up these W300i batteries (both mine and my
wife's) in the evening, in 12 hours overnight, with zero use; battery
life goes from 100% to 80% . And thats with continuous network
connection, and Bluetooth off. When the battery was new it would lose
5% charge.

So for $4.17 each I've ordered new batteries from Amazon.
AT&T is out of stock of their $59.99 batteries, and SonyEricisson
doesnt offer them on it's web site. And again, I do know that AT&T
sells 3rd party Car chargers, so I have no way of knowing how
"genuine" their batteries would be if I could or wanted to obtain
them. The factory supplied batteries in our phoines are "Made in
China", and show no date of manufacture.
The Bob - 31 Aug 2008 15:14 GMT
>>Your rants make it clear that you're here to vent, not to solicit
>>knowledge or assistance from folks here. This, therefore, is my last
>>response.
>
> I'm sorry, posts here are not an authoritative source.

Especially yours, little stupid troll.
Ron - 31 Aug 2008 15:58 GMT
>>>Your rants make it clear that you're here to vent, not to solicit
>>>knowledge or assistance from folks here. This, therefore, is my last
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Especially yours, little stupid troll.

I always know when I am 100% correct.

I get a childish insult from a very anonymous sock-puppet, who
has zero to offer to refute what I have to say, but does snip my
story.

To remind:

 It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
YEARS.

So at 15 months age I discover my batteries lasting barely longer
than 1 day, but when new they lasted 4 days.

For a Sony/Ericsson w300i, the ATT website says a replacement Lithium
battery is $59.99 but they are out of stock; and the SonyEricsson web
site has none for sale.

At Amazon.com they are $4.17 and in stock.

No battery I have seen has a Date of Manufacture on it, but if
batteries were half as good
as some apologist (with no evidence) would have you believe,
you'd expect longer than a 1 year warranty.
The Bob - 31 Aug 2008 20:21 GMT
>>>>Your rants make it clear that you're here to vent, not to solicit
>>>>knowledge or assistance from folks here. This, therefore, is my last
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I always know when I am 100% correct.

Which would be never, given the archives.

> I get a childish insult from a very anonymous sock-puppet,

How is it any more anonymous than "Ron", trollboy?

Stones- glass houses, moron.

>  who
> has zero to offer to refute what I have to say,

Here you go- what you say is crap and totally inaccurate.

Feel better now?

> but does snip my
> story.

You mean like this?

<snip>

No need to leave the garbage in the post.
Larry - 31 Aug 2008 20:46 GMT
>> I get a childish insult from a very anonymous sock-puppet,
>
> How is it any more anonymous than "Ron", trollboy?
>
> Stones- glass houses, moron.

Boys, BOYS!  Now quit throwing those Tonka trucks around the sandbox and be
nice to each other or I'm gonna hafta send you in to see the Principal!

Now, nice big hugs and then we'll go in for a snack!
Ron - 31 Aug 2008 22:12 GMT
>Here you go- what you say is crap and totally inaccurate.
>
>Feel better now?
>
>Let's try this again:

I get a childish insult from a very anonymous sock-puppet, who
has zero to offer to refute what I have to say, but does snip my
story.

To remind:

 It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
YEARS.

So at 15 months age I discover my batteries lasting barely longer
than 1 day, but when new they lasted 4 days.

For a Sony/Ericsson w300i, the ATT website says a replacement Lithium
battery is $59.99 but they are out of stock; and the SonyEricsson web
site has none for sale.

At Amazon.com they are $4.17 and in stock.

No battery I have seen has a Date of Manufacture on it, but if
batteries were half as good
as some apologist (with no evidence) would have you believe,
you'd expect longer than a 1 year warranty.
Dennis Ferguson - 31 Aug 2008 22:22 GMT
>>>>  It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
>>>>only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> internal resistance through oxidation. They die eventually, regardless of
> how/whether you actually use them.

Without having an opinion on anything else I'd point out that the
chart on the web page above says that Li-Ion batteries stored
in as-manufactured state (i.e. 40% charge) will lose about 4%
of capacity per year if stored at room temperature (and as low
as 2% if stored cold) while, unless you keep your phone in the
refridgerator, batteries in normal service would be expected to
lose at least 20% of capacity per year, more if the phone runs
hot.

I think this means that a new, never charged Li-Ion battery which
is stored unused will take between 5 and 11 years to lose the same
amount of capacity that a battery would be expected to lose in a
single year of normal use.  If that's true then storing a new
battery for a couple of years before using it will reduce the
in-service life of the battery by only a few months, and that
if you buy replacement batteries before you need them keeping
them in the fridge will keep them fresh longer.

Dennis Ferguson
Ron - 31 Aug 2008 22:35 GMT
>>>>>  It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
>>>>>only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>Dennis Ferguson
Lots of info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion

Doesnt explain why our batteries last 1/3 as long after 15 months.
Dennis Ferguson - 31 Aug 2008 23:31 GMT
> Lots of info here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion
>
> Doesnt explain why our batteries last 1/3 as long after 15 months.

I don't know that either, but I think either you used the royal
"our" or you are being a little bit over-inclusive.  I've got
a 5 year old Motorola V600i (passed on to a relative) which is
still on its original battery, and I've got a Macbook Pro which
is certainly less than 2.5 years old and is on its third battery.
I've got a 3 year old RAZR where the original battery is still
going strong and a 2.5 year old RAZR whose battery was replaced
last year.  While it could be that some devices or their batteries
have consistent problems that others don't, it may also be that the
mean behaviour has a large standard deviation, so that sometimes you
get lucky and sometimes you don't.

Dennis Ferguson
Mike S. - 01 Sep 2008 02:20 GMT
>Without having an opinion on anything else I'd point out that the
>chart on the web page above says that Li-Ion batteries stored
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>if you buy replacement batteries before you need them keeping
>them in the fridge will keep them fresh longer.

I think you're equating self-discharge with aging, and these are different
processes.

If the cell has lost capacity due to aging, then it may charge fully and
test at full voltage, but be unable to supply enough current to power
anything because its internal resistance has risen too high thruogh
oxidation.

If a cell hasn't lost capacity, then self-discharge can easily be reversed
by putting it on the charger and topping it off.

After 5-11 years in storage, the loss of capacity due to oxidation will
have a much greater effect on its useability in a device than
self-discharge. This is why the battery reference sites advise that
hoarding extra LiIon batteries for future use is a bad approach.

In my own experience the aging effect has been highly variable.
I have relatively new cells that have become unuseable while in storage,
and older cells that can still supply power despite their age. Quality of
manufacturing, useage patterns, and storage conditions are some of the
variables that explain this, I suppose.
Evan Platt - 01 Sep 2008 18:32 GMT
>And I never saw a battery with a Date of Manufacture stamped on it.

Motorola batteries are good at doing this. Most of the Nextel (OEM)
batteries have a date of manufacture on them.
Signature

To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.

Carl - 02 Sep 2008 02:02 GMT
>  It's a scandal that cell phones are sold for a 2 year contract, but
> only carry a 1 year warranty, and commonly batteries WILL NOT LAST 2
> YEARS.

Imo there are a couple of important misconceptions in the quoted part of
your post.

First of all, cell phones are not "sold for a 2 year contract". They may be
given to you at no charge if you sign up for a 2 year contract, which is a
contract for phone usage service, not phone device service.  My car, a
"luxury" model, pretty expensive thingy, has a 36 month, 50,000 mile
warranty. But the $300 per tire "run-flat" tires have none (except against
some rare and hard-to-define "manufacturer's defect"). Get a hole in the
sidewall and you pay. Your buying a 2 year airtime service does not have any
relationship to how long the phone itself, or its parts, will last.  Just as
well, if you fail to perform the minimum required services, and your
transmission goes, you may find that warranty voided.

Second, warranties are never guarantees of how long something will actually
last, but a reflection of how much risk the manufacturer is willing to take.
A good quality eyeglass frame, which may set you back $300, generally has a
1 year manufacturer's defect warranty. The frame may last you 10 years with
good care.

Third, cell phone companies, to my knowledge, offer service contracts for
their phones. I pay $5.99 (or $6.99?) a month to make sure my phone gets
replaced if it becomes lost, stolen, or broken. And that probably still
excludes the battery!

My advice for some of you is to try to work on not feeling so cheated and
abused about so many things that I see posted here.  It is not up to anyone
to protect you, the individual, against each and every little mishap that
might happen to you. I wonder if, in your own business and personal lives,
you meet up to the standards you set for others?
DevilsPGD - 02 Sep 2008 08:51 GMT
>Third, cell phone companies, to my knowledge, offer service contracts for
>their phones. I pay $5.99 (or $6.99?) a month to make sure my phone gets
>replaced if it becomes lost, stolen, or broken. And that probably still
>excludes the battery!

Yet should the entire phone be smashed to bits with a hammer right in
the carrier's store, the replacement will include a battery.

Neat.
Carl - 03 Sep 2008 02:42 GMT
>>Third, cell phone companies, to my knowledge, offer service contracts for
>>their phones. I pay $5.99 (or $6.99?) a month to make sure my phone gets
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Neat.

True. One of the many small ironies of life. The lesson learned? If your
battery goes dead early, and you're self-righteous enough to believe you've
been taken advantage of and damaged in some way, "lose" the phone. You'll
get your frickin' new battery. Just stop whining about it.  Oh yeah, I
forgot. You actually have had to be willing to pay the 6 bucks a month
insurance fee.  Tsk, tsk. Just another damn catch-22.
DevilsPGD - 03 Sep 2008 04:16 GMT
>True. One of the many small ironies of life. The lesson learned? If your
>battery goes dead early, and you're self-righteous enough to believe you've
>been taken advantage of and damaged in some way, "lose" the phone. You'll
>get your frickin' new battery. Just stop whining about it.  Oh yeah, I
>forgot. You actually have had to be willing to pay the 6 bucks a month
>insurance fee.  Tsk, tsk. Just another damn catch-22.

If I'm paying for an extended warranty, you'd better bet that includes
all components, phone, battery and charger alike.
Carl - 08 Sep 2008 01:47 GMT
>> True. One of the many small ironies of life. The lesson learned? If
>> your battery goes dead early, and you're self-righteous enough to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If I'm paying for an extended warranty, you'd better bet that includes
> all components, phone, battery and charger alike.

I buy the insurance too. It gives me a level of security about my phone. So
far, it's also paid off when I've had minor problems with mine: they just
give me a new one on the spot. It pays to get that $5.99 deal too, above the
$4.99 one, if that still exists.
selena - 02 Sep 2008 13:57 GMT
I think we should turn off the phone when we don't use it. Sometimes w
just keep the phone on as we don't have any use of it. Bluetooth shol
be also turn off when it is not in use

--
selena
Larry - 02 Sep 2008 17:36 GMT
@mobile-forum.co.uk:

> I think we should turn off the phone when we don't use it.

You can turn it OFF?!  Where's that button??
DevilsPGD - 02 Sep 2008 19:59 GMT
>I think we should turn off the phone when we don't use it.

Do you have your callers send you a letter asking you to turn your phone
on before they can call you?

Maybe prearranged check-ins with everyone you know?

Failing that, how do you receive calls?
Carl - 03 Sep 2008 02:44 GMT
>> I think we should turn off the phone when we don't use it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Failing that, how do you receive calls?

Nobody ever calls me either. In order to have "friends", I have to call
them.  :-)
DevilsPGD - 03 Sep 2008 04:16 GMT
>>> I think we should turn off the phone when we don't use it.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Nobody ever calls me either. In order to have "friends", I have to call
>them.  :-)

Good point.

:)

I actually use my phone for voice very little, I much prefer text (email
or SMS), but I do love the mobility.
 
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