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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / July 2009

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iPhone share of U.S. traffic hits 69%

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Oxford - 25 Jun 2009 20:20 GMT
The iPhone continues to take over the smartphone market, it has now
taken 69% of all smartphone traffic, which ironically is getting close
to iPod share...

In February it covered 51% of the pie. By April it had grown to 59%. And
by Thursday morning, when AdMob released the May edition of its U.S.
smartphone pie, Apple¹s (AAPL) share had grown to 69% ‹ a 10 point
increase in one month.

More here:

http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/06/25/iphone-share-of-u-s-smart
phone-traffic-hits-69/

Congrats everyone!
News - 25 Jun 2009 20:25 GMT
> The iPhone continues to take over the smartphone market, it has now
> taken 69% of all smartphone traffic
>
> Congrats everyone!

Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!
David Moyer - 25 Jun 2009 20:41 GMT
> The iPhone continues to take over the smartphone market, it has now
> taken 69% of all smartphone traffic, which ironically is getting close
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> > Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!

nah, it just illustrates extreme ease of use and popularity of a highly
functional phone.
John Navas - 25 Jun 2009 21:03 GMT
>> > Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!
>
>nah, it just illustrates extreme ease of use and popularity of a highly
>functional phone.

How so?

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

David Moyer - 25 Jun 2009 21:51 GMT
> >> > Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!
> >
> >nah, it just illustrates extreme ease of use and popularity of a highly
> >functional phone.
>
> How so?

check the charts, it clearly shows the iphone is more widely used on the
web... per capita than any other phone, the ease of use is obvious to
everyone expect people that don't yet own them.

http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/06/25/iphone-share-of-u-s-smart
phone-traffic-hits-69/

you fall in the lessor category so might not understand these facts as
of yet.
John Navas - 25 Jun 2009 21:53 GMT
>> >> > Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>check the charts, it clearly shows the iphone is more widely used on the
>web... per capita than any other phone, ...

My question was how the 69% figure illustrated that, not some other
data.  Thus I have to conclude it doesn't really, that News was correct.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Tim Murray - 28 Jun 2009 15:28 GMT
>>>> Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!
>>
>> nah, it just illustrates extreme ease of use and popularity of a highly
>> functional phone.
>
> How so?

Since you didn't comprehend David's simple reply, let me draw you a picture.
Take the universe of all phones. Inside that universe you have the set that
can browse at all, which I would include the simple WAP sites. Among that set
we find the iPhone.  Although the iPhone is not a major slice of all those
phones, it's still responsible for most smart-phone web traffic.

If it were not popular and easy to use, it would never had had that much of
the traffic.

Think you can wrap your head around that?
News - 28 Jun 2009 17:06 GMT
>>>>> Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!
>>> nah, it just illustrates extreme ease of use and popularity of a highly
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Think you can wrap your head around that?

What, your rationalization and apologia for wretched excess and
inefficiency?
Todd Allcock - 28 Jun 2009 23:40 GMT
>>>>> Yep, that's wretched excess and inefficiency for ya!
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> we find the iPhone.  Although the iPhone is not a major slice of all those
> phones, it's still responsible for most smart-phone web traffic.

As I posted earlier, it's not that simple...

For starters, toss out the WAP phones- they aren't counted, since they can't
receive the ads that the company uses as a tracking measurement.  That
leaves just phones with "real" HTML browsers.  Still an impressive
statistic, but it's now the big browsing fish in a much smaller pond limited
to itself, WinMo, very recent Blackberries (less-recent ones had WAP
browsers,) and Android.  Toss out any phone that uses a proxied "real" HTML
browser like Opera Mini or Skyfire as well, since those stats are tracked
seperately.

> If it were not popular and easy to use, it would never had had that much
> of
> the traffic.
>
> Think you can wrap your head around that?

True, but again, it's overstated (as the company publishing the statistic
freely admits- they are tracking exposures to their ads to drum up more ad
business, not trying to provide 100% accurate internet usage stats.)  Many
phones and mobile browsers are designed to default to XHTML or WAP pages to
save bandwidth and speed load time rather than the "real" web page
counterparts, and avoid choking the less-capable browser with elements it
can't accurately render.  This also moves those phones down a peg or two in
the "ads served" statistics.

Perhaps newer 3G iPhone users don't see the advantage of a "mobile" site
over the "real web," but with my wife's iPhone 2G on EDGE you're painfully
reminded every time you surf that a 30k CNN WAP page gets you the headlines
much faster than their 500k "real" home page does!
Bella - 12 Jul 2009 00:56 GMT
It represents the iPhone's share of U.S. smartphone traffic on th
network ... iPhone share of U.S. smartphone traffic hits 69% See th
blue slice in the pie ..

--
Bella
John Navas - 25 Jun 2009 20:40 GMT
>Congrats everyone!

Why?  Is this some sort of mission?

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

News - 25 Jun 2009 20:44 GMT
>> Congrats everyone!
>
> Why?  Is this some sort of mission?

Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
inefficiently as possible.
David Moyer - 25 Jun 2009 21:58 GMT
> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
> inefficiently as possible.

people used to say that about the web around 1992, no news there. bottom
line... apple is paving the future for all of us, evn if you aren't
smart enough to understand what is happening quite yet...

check out apple's new sensor patents, incredible stuff!

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/06/24/apple_exploring_wireless_sy
stem_for_quantifying_the_unquantifiable.html
John Navas - 25 Jun 2009 22:10 GMT
>> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
>> inefficiently as possible.
>
>people used to say that about the web around 1992, no news there. bottom
>line... apple is paving the future for all of us, evn if you aren't
>smart enough to understand what is happening quite yet...

Maybe, but all Apple has done so far is the same old stuff in a nice
interface.

>check out apple's new sensor patents, incredible stuff!
>http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/06/24/apple_exploring_wireless_sy
>stem_for_quantifying_the_unquantifiable.html

The camera in the iPhone 3G S is mediocre, not incredible.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

David Moyer - 25 Jun 2009 22:56 GMT
> >people used to say that about the web around 1992, no news there. bottom
> >line... apple is paving the future for all of us, evn if you aren't
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> The camera in the iPhone 3G S is mediocre, not incredible.

it's the most incredible one you can own at that price point, so it
can't be mediocre, it's the best of class. check out the samples at the
bottom of this link, incredible, just incredible!

http://www.apple.com/iphone/iphone-3gs/photos.html
John Navas - 25 Jun 2009 23:35 GMT
>> >people used to say that about the web around 1992, no news there. bottom
>> >line... apple is paving the future for all of us, evn if you aren't
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>http://www.apple.com/iphone/iphone-3gs/photos.html

Nokia N97.

What's funny is how even favorable reviews of the camera have poor
images, like
<http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/06/breaking-iphone-3g-s-camera-doesnt-suck/>

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Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

News - 25 Jun 2009 22:19 GMT
>> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
>> inefficiently as possible.
>
> people used to say that about the web around 1992, no news there. bottom
> line... apple is paving the future for all of us

Not exactly;  fanbois are paving themselves into a corner.

Soon fanbois will have to pay the piper for the bandwidth waste being
generated by their small band, who rightfully should pay higher charges
associated with their wretchedly excessive and inefficient use.

Enjoy your triple digit dollar per month data plans, fanbois!
David Moyer - 25 Jun 2009 22:51 GMT
> >> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
> >> inefficiently as possible.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Not exactly;  fanbois are paving themselves into a corner.

said the Punchcard Operator to the Guy sitting in front of a Terminal in
1969 :)

> Soon fanbois will have to pay the piper for the bandwidth waste being
> generated by their small band, who rightfully should pay higher charges
> associated with their wretchedly excessive and inefficient use.
>
> Enjoy your triple digit dollar per month data plans, fanbois!

no, i turned on tethering last night on my iPhone 3GS and it was free.
so there won't be any additional charges. sounds like you are behind the
curve.
News - 25 Jun 2009 23:17 GMT
>>>> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
>>>> inefficiently as possible.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> no, i turned on tethering last night on my iPhone 3GS and it was free.

Time will tell, smartass.  May as well fund the liability starting NOW.
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 00:54 GMT
> >>>> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
> >>>> inefficiently as possible.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Time will tell, smartass.  May as well fund the liability starting NOW.

what liability? ATT has already said they're not going to do anything,
but hope people can wait for the official rollout coming late in the
summer.
News - 26 Jun 2009 01:06 GMT
>>>>>> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
>>>>>> inefficiently as possible.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> what liability? ATT has already said they're not going to do anything

"No change you hope and believe in."
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 01:28 GMT
>> > no, i turned on tethering last night on my iPhone 3GS and it was free.
>>
>> Time will tell, smartass.  May as well fund the liability starting NOW.
>
>what liability? ATT has already said they're not going to do anything,

Really?  Citation?

>but hope people can wait for the official rollout coming late in the
>summer.

Got a cite for that too?  Or must we take your word for it?

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 02:05 GMT
> >> > no, i turned on tethering last night on my iPhone 3GS and it was free.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Really?  Citation?

AT&T Tolerates iPhone Tethering Technique - PC Magazine 12:13 PM

look it up yourself

> >but hope people can wait for the official rollout coming late in the
> >summer.
>
> Got a cite for that too?  Or must we take your word for it?

AT&T Tolerates iPhone Tethering Technique - PC Magazine 12:13 PM

next time, try and keep up on the news, you probably still don't know
that Michael Jackson is dead.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 05:08 GMT
>> >> > no, i turned on tethering last night on my iPhone 3GS and it was free.
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>next time, try and keep up on the news, you probably still don't know
>that Michael Jackson is dead.

Next time, read your cite before posting --
it doesn't say what you claim.

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Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level
and then beat you with experience." -Dr. Alan Zimmerman

zara - 25 Jun 2009 23:44 GMT
>> >> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
>> >> inefficiently as possible.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> so there won't be any additional charges. sounds like you are behind the
> curve.

Free?  Nothing - is free.
jon - 26 Jun 2009 19:49 GMT
> Free?  Nothing - is free.

You charge 2c to drop your piss stained frilly panties!!
News - 26 Jun 2009 20:09 GMT
>> Free?  Nothing - is free.
>>
> You charge 2c to drop your piss stained frilly panties!!

This worries you because... you were use to getting 5c?
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 20:46 GMT
>>> Free?  Nothing - is free.
>>>
>> You charge 2c to drop your piss stained frilly panties!!
>
>This worries you because... you were use to getting 5c?

Is it any wonder Usenet is dying?  [sigh]

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

News - 26 Jun 2009 21:12 GMT
>>>> Free?  Nothing - is free.
>>>>
>>> You charge 2c to drop your piss stained frilly panties!!
>> This worries you because... you were use to getting 5c?
>
> Is it any wonder Usenet is dying?  [sigh]

Yeah, your "Motorola charging tips" really enhance its usefulness...
ed - 26 Jun 2009 01:10 GMT
> > >> Apparently, a mission to consume bandwidth in wretched excess, as
> > >> inefficiently as possible.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> no, i turned on tethering last night on my iPhone 3GS and it was free.

so why does apple tell you it's att's fault that the iphone doesn't do
tethering, ?  :P

> so there won't be any additional charges. sounds like you are behind the
> curve.
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 01:23 GMT
> > no, i turned on tethering last night on my iPhone 3GS and it was free.
>
> so why does apple tell you it's att's fault that the iphone doesn't do
> tethering, ?  :P

that's because ATT doesn't allow it since they aren't ready for the
demand. apple is ready, ATT isn't.
Tim Murray - 26 Jun 2009 04:46 GMT
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
  the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]

>> so why does apple tell you it's att's fault that the iphone doesn't do
>> tethering, ?  :P
>
> that's because ATT doesn't allow it since they aren't ready for the
> demand. apple is ready, ATT isn't.

AT&T tethers with other phones now. I think they're just figuring out a way
to soak users for more money.
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 05:11 GMT
> >> so why does apple tell you it's att's fault that the iphone doesn't do
> >> tethering, ?  :P
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> AT&T tethers with other phones now. I think they're just figuring out a way
> to soak users for more money.

nah, they are just concerned about bandwidth as it absorbs 4, 5 million
new iphones over the next few months... once all that settles down, they
flip the switch, and rumors continue there will be no extra charge.
Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 06:28 GMT
> > AT&T tethers with other phones now. I think they're just figuring out a way
> > to soak users for more money.
>
> nah, they are just concerned about bandwidth as it absorbs 4, 5 million
> new iphones over the next few months... once all that settles down, they
> flip the switch, and rumors continue there will be no extra charge.

"Rumors continue?"  A few hours ago you just posted a link to a PC Mag
article ("AT&T Tolerates iPhone Tethering Technique") which said:  "We have
said that we will offer tethering at some point in the future," [AT&T
spokesman Mark] Siegel said. "We will not say right now what the price is,
though there will be a fee."
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 14:38 GMT
> > nah, they are just concerned about bandwidth as it absorbs 4, 5 million
> > new iphones over the next few months... once all that settles down, they
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> spokesman Mark] Siegel said. "We will not say right now what the price is,
> though there will be a fee."

we'll see, the rumor is there will be no additional charge below the 5GB
cap.
Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 15:37 GMT

> > > nah, they are just concerned about bandwidth as it absorbs 4, 5 million
> > > new iphones over the next few months... once all that settles down, they
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> we'll see, the rumor is there will be no additional charge below the 5GB
> cap.

Good luck with that.  I suspect it'll go the way of the "smaller,cheaper
iPhone with cheaper data plan" rumor.

In aggregate, iPhone users are consuming far more than their share of
system resources, and getting away with it because you're spending more
than everyone else.  You're like the United States in cellular customer form.
;)

Historically, you guys have demonstrated a wilingness to pay whatever AT&T
is asking for service, even when it lacked features other customers have (3G,
MMS.)  What possible incentive does AT&T have to give you anything for free
since you'll open your wallets on demand?

Here's MY rumor, Oxy- you'll pay $30/month extra to tether, just like
smartphone users, else the tethering app will deny access.  My guess is
that the delay is more about adding the appropriate "blocks" to the netork
than preparing for an "onslaught" of users.  If anything, I'd suspect
iPhone users would be light tetherers.  The more you use your phone for
web, email, and time wasting, the less you need to lug a computer around.
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 16:07 GMT
> > we'll see, the rumor is there will be no additional charge below the 5GB
> > cap.
>
> Good luck with that.  I suspect it'll go the way of the "smaller,cheaper
> iPhone with cheaper data plan" rumor.

well, it's currently free to have tethering on your iphone, so that
should remain the same.

yes, the iPhone nano is still a ways off, but obviously that will happen
in time.

> In aggregate, iPhone users are consuming far more than their share of
> system resources, and getting away with it because you're spending more
> than everyone else.  You're like the United States in cellular customer form.
>  ;)

yes, it's expensive to blaze the trail for others to follow, that is
nothing new to apple users.

> Historically, you guys have demonstrated a wilingness to pay whatever AT&T
> is asking for service, even when it lacked features other customers have (3G,
> MMS.)  What possible incentive does AT&T have to give you anything for free
> since you'll open your wallets on demand?

why is money such a concern? this is about changing society, not about
money. ATT is a puppet of Apple in all of this, they signed the
contract, so they have to perform to Apple's script.

> Here's MY rumor, Oxy- you'll pay $30/month extra to tether, just like
> smartphone users, else the tethering app will deny access.  My guess is
> that the delay is more about adding the appropriate "blocks" to the netork
> than preparing for an "onslaught" of users.  If anything, I'd suspect
> iPhone users would be light tetherers.  The more you use your phone for
> web, email, and time wasting, the less you need to lug a computer around.

currently it's $0.00. what you are not yet understanding is iPhone users
come from the pure computer world, where there are always workarounds.
the Cell networks will have to bend to us, not the other way around. We
control this market now... as ATT is learning.
nospam - 26 Jun 2009 16:21 GMT
> > > we'll see, the rumor is there will be no additional charge below the 5GB
> > > cap.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> well, it's currently free to have tethering on your iphone, so that
> should remain the same.

it's currently not supported and is also a terms of service violation,
and it is very unlikely that the price will remain the same.  at&t said
there will be a fee, just not how much.  they did say that it won't be
$55/month as one rumour suggested, however.

> > Historically, you guys have demonstrated a wilingness to pay whatever AT&T
> > is asking for service, even when it lacked features other customers have
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> money. ATT is a puppet of Apple in all of this, they signed the
> contract, so they have to perform to Apple's script.

nonsense.  they both signed a contract and nobody outside of either
company knows the exact terms (but there's a lot of wild speculation).

> > Here's MY rumor, Oxy- you'll pay $30/month extra to tether, just like
> > smartphone users, else the tethering app will deny access.  My guess is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the Cell networks will have to bend to us, not the other way around. We
> control this market now... as ATT is learning.

nonsense.
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 17:52 GMT
> > currently it's $0.00. what you are not yet understanding is iPhone users
> > come from the pure computer world, where there are always workarounds.
> > the Cell networks will have to bend to us, not the other way around. We
> > control this market now... as ATT is learning.
>
> nonsense.

nope, you might want to revisit the community creed:

"here¹s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently.

They¹re not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo.
You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About
the only thing you can¹t do is ignore them. Because they change things.

They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the
crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to
think they can change the world, are the ones who do."
nospam - 26 Jun 2009 18:00 GMT
> > > currently it's $0.00. what you are not yet understanding is iPhone users
> > > come from the pure computer world, where there are always workarounds.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to
> think they can change the world, are the ones who do."

like i said, nonsense.  that says absolutely nothing about what at&t
will charge for tethering.
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 18:31 GMT
> like i said, nonsense.  that says absolutely nothing about what at&t
> will charge for tethering.

obviously, but today, it's free... that is the point...
nospam - 26 Jun 2009 18:39 GMT
> > like i said, nonsense.  that says absolutely nothing about what at&t
> > will charge for tethering.
>
> obviously, but today, it's free... that is the point...

today it's a terms of service violation.  the fact that it's free right
now is more luck than anything else.
News - 26 Jun 2009 18:55 GMT
>>> like i said, nonsense.  that says absolutely nothing about what at&t
>>> will charge for tethering.
>> obviously, but today, it's free... that is the point...
>
> today it's a terms of service violation.  the fact that it's free right
> now is more luck than anything else.

Sounds like a great honeypot app...

Gotcha!
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 19:23 GMT
> > > like i said, nonsense.  that says absolutely nothing about what at&t
> > > will charge for tethering.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> today it's a terms of service violation.  the fact that it's free right
> now is more luck than anything else.

it's not a violation unless a court case is won, so currently it's free.

zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
corporations, as it always has.
News - 26 Jun 2009 19:34 GMT
>>>> like i said, nonsense.  that says absolutely nothing about what at&t
>>>> will charge for tethering.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
> corporations, as it always has.

An army of fanbois, sticking it to the man...

Is there a B-movie in this?
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 19:44 GMT
> > it's not a violation unless a court case is won, so currently it's free.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Is there a B-movie in this?

i doubt any fanboys would be involved, it's more of "just the way it is"
with apple products and the direction its users are taking society. it's
rooted in the counterculture, the very essence of apple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie
News - 26 Jun 2009 19:49 GMT
>>> it's not a violation unless a court case is won, so currently it's free.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> i doubt any fanboys would be involved

Left to a group of ad-fanbois like the one in the AAPL ads, no doubt.

An opportunity lost to monetize what is otherwise a meager existence.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 19:42 GMT
>> > > like i said, nonsense.  that says absolutely nothing about what at&t
>> > > will charge for tethering.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>it's not a violation unless a court case is won, so currently it's free.

Sorry, but that's not how the law works.

>zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
>corporations, as it always has.

How silly and childish.

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MuahMan - 26 Jun 2009 22:10 GMT
Yes, most iPhone users are greedy, self-absorbed, band-width wasting
freaks of humanity. Most of them probably sporting an Obama and Go
Green sticker too the damned hypocrites!

I'm in the  .00000001% of cool iPhone users. It's a good phone for
keeping tracking of your favorite sports team.
nospam - 26 Jun 2009 19:49 GMT
> > today it's a terms of service violation.  the fact that it's free right
> > now is more luck than anything else.
>
> it's not a violation unless a court case is won, so currently it's free.

it's a violation of the terms of service which the customer willingly
signed.  at&t could incur a fine if they wanted to, but i doubt they
will because it's probably too much effort for them to track usage
properly to get it right so they'll just let it slide until they can
charge for it.

> zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
> corporations, as it always has.

nonsense.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 19:53 GMT
>> > today it's a terms of service violation.  the fact that it's free right
>> > now is more luck than anything else.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>properly to get it right so they'll just let it slide until they can
>charge for it.

AT&T tracks usage accurately.  Technology to do that is standard.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 26 Jun 2009 20:10 GMT
> >it's a violation of the terms of service which the customer willingly
> >signed.  at&t could incur a fine if they wanted to, but i doubt they
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> AT&T tracks usage accurately.  Technology to do that is standard.

they may not be able to discern tether usage versus normal iphone
usage.  plus, their accounting is very primitive - it tracks 1k blocks
as 1 second calls.  in other words, if you use 24k, you made a 24
second call.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 20:14 GMT
>> >it's a violation of the terms of service which the customer willingly
>> >signed.  at&t could incur a fine if they wanted to, but i doubt they
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>they may not be able to discern tether usage versus normal iphone
>usage.

There are actually dead giveaways.

>plus, their accounting is very primitive - it tracks 1k blocks
>as 1 second calls.  in other words, if you use 24k, you made a 24
>second call.

Not so.  You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 26 Jun 2009 20:54 GMT
> >they may not be able to discern tether usage versus normal iphone
> >usage.
>
> There are actually dead giveaways.

it may not be as clear cut with an iphone as you seem to think, but the
real question is are they bothering to look.

> >plus, their accounting is very primitive - it tracks 1k blocks
> >as 1 second calls.  in other words, if you use 24k, you made a 24
> >second call.
>
> Not so.  You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

oh silly me. i guess i can't read my own calling statement.  this issue
has been discussed on hofo before and exactly matches my usage
patterns.  in other words, it's correct.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 20:57 GMT
>> >they may not be able to discern tether usage versus normal iphone
>> >usage.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>it may not be as clear cut with an iphone as you seem to think, but the
>real question is are they bothering to look.

AT&T has made it clear that traffic is being monitored and analyzed.

>> >plus, their accounting is very primitive - it tracks 1k blocks
>> >as 1 second calls.  in other words, if you use 24k, you made a 24
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>oh silly me. i guess i can't read my own calling statement.  

Maybe you can, but you clearly don't know the differences between
infrastructure, backend, and billing systems.

>this issue
>has been discussed on hofo before and exactly matches my usage
>patterns.  in other words, it's correct.

I'm reminded of how illicit filesharers used to boast they could never
get caught.

No skin off my nose.  Do whatever you want.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 26 Jun 2009 21:06 GMT
> >> >they may not be able to discern tether usage versus normal iphone
> >> >usage.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> AT&T has made it clear that traffic is being monitored and analyzed.

cite?

that's also vague. that does not say whether they actually can tell if
someone is tethering and if they can, whether they are going to take
action against them.  and as i said, it may not be as clear cut as you
think.  what are some of the 'dead giveaways' and how do they apply to
the iphone?  

on the other hand, they *do* know about all the gophone users and shut
most of them down in 3.0.

> >this issue
> >has been discussed on hofo before and exactly matches my usage
> >patterns.  in other words, it's correct.
>
> I'm reminded of how illicit filesharers used to boast they could never
> get caught.

what does that have to do with anything?

> No skin off my nose.  Do whatever you want.

are you insinuating i'm doing something illicit?  if so, you'd damned
well better have some good evidence to back it up.
Jeff Liebermann - 27 Jun 2009 17:49 GMT
>that's also vague. that does not say whether they actually can tell if
>someone is tethering and if they can, whether they are going to take
>action against them.  and as i said, it may not be as clear cut as you
>think.  what are some of the 'dead giveaways' and how do they apply to
>the iphone?  

I have no idea if or how AT&T is sniffing traffic.  However, I can
speculate a little.  It's fairly easy to distinguish traffic from a
tethered and non-tethered iPhone.  The iPhone apps will all be
registered apps obtained via the Apple Apps Store.  The tethered phone
will be using apps not found on the iPhone.   JailBroken iPhones may
be a problem, but even those can be seperately characterized.  For
example, you're not going to see Bitorrent type traffic from a native
iPhone application, but will see if from a tethered laptop.

Methinks it's highly probable that AT&T is sniffing and cataloging
traffic by type.  That's because data bandwidth is a precious and
limited commodity.  AT&T's ability to pack in more customers is
limited by its access to bandwidth, towers, frequencies, and such.
Tracking their use is important.  Considerable research and much
software has been written on traffic analysis over the years.  High
end routers include features to make monitoring possible and easier.
Such things are normally not ignored by management.

It's common for wired ISP's to collect data on the traffic type,
usually using Cisco Netflow monitoring software.  For example:
"Put the Brakes on Bandwidth Hogs with NetFlow Traffic Analyzer"
<http://www.solarwinds.com/products/orion/nta/>
There are plenty others.  Search Google for "Netflow Analyzer".

Whether AT&T has written routines to identify tethered users is
speculative but probable.  In the distant past, the Pre-AT&T Comcast
was sniffing traffic to identify users that had multiple computahs
hidden behind NAT routers, and was sending them a bill for those
additional computers since the TOS only allowed one machine at a time.
I wouldn't put it past AT&T to do the same with tethering.

Whether they do it correctly is another bad guess.  Probably not. Adam
Savage of Mythbusters fame got an $11,000 bill from AT&T for allegedly
downloading 9GBytes while in Canada.  The bill was immediately
"settled" by AT&T, which really means that they would look like idiots
if they tried to collect.  You may not be as famous or fortunate:
"Mythbusters' Savage The Latest Socked With Huge 3G Bill"
<http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Mythbusters-Savage-The-Latest-Socked-With-Hug
e-3G-Bill-103147
>
<http://twitter.com/donttrythis>

More on tethering.  Looks like AT&T is trying to answer some of the
rumors while waiting for the Verizon iPhone to be announced:
<http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Oh-ATT-Tethering-Sources-You-Taunt-Us-103039>
Lots of opinions and guesses, but the consensus seems to be that AT&T
can detect tethering.

Drivel:  What I think of mandatory data plans with smart phones:
"48% of Americans Would Drop Mobile Data Service Completely"
<http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=PressReleaseViewer&a0=4751>
Of course, they're all lying as watching YouTube over the iPhone is
approaching saturation:
<http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/iPhone-3GS-Drives-Explosion-In-YouTube-Use-103145>

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

ZnU - 27 Jun 2009 19:36 GMT
> >that's also vague. that does not say whether they actually can tell
> >if someone is tethering and if they can, whether they are going to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> will be using apps not found on the iPhone. JailBroken iPhones may be
> a problem, but even those can be seperately characterized.

There are 50,000+ publicly available iPhone apps, with updates and new
apps showing up all the time. Additionally, companies and individual
developers (even not considering jailbreaking) can write their own
iPhone apps which they may not decide to distribute to the public; AT&T
has no knowledge of such apps at all. Attempting to tell tethered
traffic from iPhone traffic by building models of all the types of data
sent and received by iPhone apps and red-flagging anything that doesn't
match would be ludicrously impractical.

> For example, you're not going to see Bitorrent type traffic from a
> native iPhone application, but will see if from a tethered laptop.

I believe someone has actually ported a BitTorrent client to jailbroken
iPhones. In any event, AT&T probably doesn't allow BitTorrent even with
tethering plans, so at that point you're just watching for unapproved
types of traffic, not for tethered vs. untethered use. Which makes much
more sense; with a phone as capable as the iPhone, there's no meaningful
distinction between tethered and untethered use. Someone who uses
tethering for general web browsing and e-mail could use considerably
less bandwidth than someone who watches a lot of movie trailers and
YouTube videos on their phone; why should the former cost more?

It all comes down to the wireless carriers' desire to sell specific
billable services rather than generic bandwidth, an approach that
stifles innovation and results in screwy resource allocation because of
the creation of distorted incentives.

[snip]

> Whether they do it correctly is another bad guess.  Probably not. Adam
> Savage of Mythbusters fame got an $11,000 bill from AT&T for allegedly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Huge-3G-Bill-103147>
> <http://twitter.com/donttrythis>

His twitter username, in addition to being an amusing reference to his
show, it hilariously appropriate to this situation.

One really wonders why the wireless carriers insist on pricing some
services so high that essentially nobody would willingly use them.

[snip]

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Jeff Liebermann - 27 Jun 2009 21:12 GMT
>There are 50,000+ publicly available iPhone apps, with updates and new
>apps showing up all the time. Additionally, companies and individual
>developers (even not considering jailbreaking) can write their own
>iPhone apps which they may not decide to distribute to the public; AT&T
>has no knowledge of such apps at all.

I only have an iPod Touch, not an iPhone.  It's my understanding that
only apps distributed via the Apps Store can be installed on the iPod
Touch and iPhone (without jailbreaking).  Even with 50,000+ apps, it's
still a small number if their traffic (i.e. check for updates) can be
characterized by Apple, blessed by AT&T (allegedly to protect their
network), and therefore fairly easy to recognize.  I don't have any
way to sniff the 3G wireless traffic, but the 802.11g traffic is easy
enough.  I haven't done it (yet), but my guess is there's plenty there
that will identify the application.
"Sniff Your iPhone’s Network Traffic"
<http://blog.jerodsanto.net/2009/06/sniff-your-iphones-network-traffic/>
<http://www.parosproxy.org>

>Attempting to tell tethered
>traffic from iPhone traffic by building models of all the types of data
>sent and received by iPhone apps and red-flagging anything that doesn't
>match would be ludicrously impractical.

It only needs to detect if there are applications that were NOT
downloaded from the apps store.  Everything else is presumed to be
traffic from a laptop or PC, which identifies tethering.  Even the
quantity of traffic need not be logged, only the application
signatures.  If your traffic shows the characteristic signatures of
common Windoze applications, you're certain to be using a tethered
iPhone.

Anyway, it wouldn't be necessary to sniff the traffic.  AT&T need only
offer a reward or financial incentive to anyone turning in a user
doing tethering.  That would surely end the practice as people turn in
their neighbors, enemies, co-workers, boss, etc.

>I believe someone has actually ported a BitTorrent client to jailbroken
>iPhones.

Groan.  The surest sign of success is pollution.  I guess the iPhone
can now be official considered successful.

>In any event, AT&T probably doesn't allow BitTorrent even with
>tethering plans, so at that point you're just watching for unapproved
>types of traffic, not for tethered vs. untethered use.

Not yet.  They're currently dealing with mobile video:
<http://news.cnet.com/at&t-wireless-has-surprising-new-terms-of-service/>
Think Slingbox of the iPhone.  Sigh...
<http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp>
See section starting with "Prohibited and Permissible Uses".  No P2P,
no VoIP, etc.  Quite a list of prohibited uses.  Except for P2P, I
think I've broken every one of the itemized strictures with my iPod
Touch using Wi-Fi.  Sometimes, I'm glad I don't have an iPhone and a
data plan.  

>Which makes much
>more sense; with a phone as capable as the iPhone, there's no meaningful
>distinction between tethered and untethered use.

Any manner of service or product differentiation, that has a revenue
stream attached, is certainly meaningful.  I'm rather surprised that
AT&T (and others) don't charge different rates for incoming and
outgoing data.

>Someone who uses
>tethering for general web browsing and e-mail could use considerably
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>stifles innovation and results in screwy resource allocation because of
>the creation of distorted incentives.

Bingo.  None of the wired or wireless vendors want to simply sell
bandwidth.  That's too easy and certainly doesn't justify the high
salaries of corporate marketeers.  It also leaves little opportunity
to accidentally cheat the customer.  Well, maybe some delayed billing
and predatory late payment charges will suffice.  So, we have billing
by service, which is stupid, but technically possible.  Another
potential problem is that if cellular data were cheap enough, many
would switch over to VoIP via their data plan, and dump the voice part
of their contract.  That's exactly what's happening to AT&T's wired
telco biz with predictable financially detrimental results.

Meanwhile, I suggest you resign yourself to being part of yet another
grand experiment in cellular marketing.  It won't last very long and
will probably follow the path of the wired ISP's, which is flat rate
and tiered service levels.

>[snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>His twitter username, in addition to being an amusing reference to his
>show, it hilariously appropriate to this situation.

I've been told it's a fairly common problem.  Although you can do
roaming in Canada with most providers, it's my understanding (possibly
wrong or warped) that the promotional and bulk voice and data rates
offered in the USofA do not apply when roaming in Canada.

>One really wonders why the wireless carriers insist on pricing some
>services so high that essentially nobody would willingly use them.

Early adopters will pay anything.  Witness the first iPhone buyers,
who paid about $150 too much, and then received only a partial refund.
Companies use the revenue from these early adopters to expand the
infrastructure, so that the great unwashed masses can have the same
services at reasonable prices.

One of my former customers, now semi-retired in Florida, has 5 iPhones
for family and employees.  He claims he likes them because they're
"non-technical".  After about 6 months of owning the first one, I had
to explain to him how to use the Apps Store.  A few months later, I
had to explain how to use some of the apps.  My guess(tm) is that
people like the iPhone because it *LOOKS* simple.  It's not, but as
long as the iPhone is preceived as easy to use, it will continue to be
popular.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

ZnU - 27 Jun 2009 23:36 GMT
> >There are 50,000+ publicly available iPhone apps, with updates and new
> >apps showing up all the time. Additionally, companies and individual
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> only apps distributed via the Apps Store can be installed on the iPod
> Touch and iPhone (without jailbreaking).

Or unless you're an iPhone developer, which pretty much anyone can be
for $99/year. Or unless you're a company that deploys the iPhone
internally, and makes internal-use-only applications available to
employees.

> Even with 50,000+ apps, it's still a small number if their traffic
> (i.e. check for updates) can be characterized by Apple, blessed by
> AT&T (allegedly to protect their network), and therefore fairly easy
> to recognize.

It's utterly ludicrous to think this would actually be worth the effort
for anyone involved. It's like pointing out that cities could trivially
prevent all illegal parking by putting appropriate sensors in every
parking space. It's true, but not remotely worth the effort. 100%
enforcement of anything is often far more trouble than it's worth.

[snip]

> It only needs to detect if there are applications that were NOT
> downloaded from the apps store.  Everything else is presumed to be
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> common Windoze applications, you're certain to be using a tethered
> iPhone.

Application signatures are far more technically challenging to identify
than simple bandwidth consumption on this scale, and attempting to spot
them is very likely to get you into an arms race with the people who
write the software that will inevitably emerge to disguise them.

> Anyway, it wouldn't be necessary to sniff the traffic.  AT&T need only
> offer a reward or financial incentive to anyone turning in a user
> doing tethering.  That would surely end the practice as people turn in
> their neighbors, enemies, co-workers, boss, etc.

Right. Because the BSA's practices along these lines have completely
eliminated software piracy; people will routinely snitch on individuals
they know personally to receive small financial rewards from faceless
multinational corporations. And running your network like a police state
will lead to such good PR, too!

[snip]

> Meanwhile, I suggest you resign yourself to being part of yet another
> grand experiment in cellular marketing.  It won't last very long and
> will probably follow the path of the wired ISP's, which is flat rate
> and tiered service levels.

This is the inevitable result, and I'm sometimes confused by the fact
that none of the telcos had hit on the notion that it could probably
gain *huge* market share by being the first to get there.

[snip]

> >One really wonders why the wireless carriers insist on pricing some
> >services so high that essentially nobody would willingly use them.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> infrastructure, so that the great unwashed masses can have the same
> services at reasonable prices.

That isn't what's going on here, though. I paid $600 for an iPhone a
couple of years ago. I knew I was paying a substantial early-adopter
tax; I did so because I'd been using the same phone for about five years
because absolutely nothing new in the market appealed to me, and the
iPhone was the first new device that actually did. And -- and this is an
important bit -- I paid $600 for an iPhone knowing that it would cost me
$600.

In contrast, there is essentially *nobody* who is actually willing to
pay $11,000 for downloading some data. Nobody who ends up with a bill
like that knew what they would be charged for the services they were
using; if they had, they wouldn't have used them.

It's really hard to see what wireless companies get out of this
practice; its sole result seems to be the periodic occurrence of bad PR.

> One of my former customers, now semi-retired in Florida, has 5 iPhones
> for family and employees.  He claims he likes them because they're
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> long as the iPhone is preceived as easy to use, it will continue to be
> popular.

Like most Apple products, you either understand the appeal of the iPhone
or you don't, and if you don't, there's really no explaining it. And
mind you, not everyone who uses an iPhone really gets it either; quite a
few people do just buy them as fashion accessories.

But there is more to it than that. I'll point again to the figure
mentioned in the subject of this thread. When the iPhone was released,
many people insisted it wasn't anything new; that other phones already
had all of its features. And this was, by and large, true, and even more
true today. Why then, do iPhone users appear to *use* many of those
features at a rate much higher than users of other phones?

The answer is that not everything is captured by a spec sheet. There are
design decisions which make certain features substantially more useful
on the iPhone, particularly as far as non-geek users are concerned, than
on most other phones.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Mark Crispin - 28 Jun 2009 02:29 GMT
> It's utterly ludicrous to think this would actually be worth the effort
> for anyone involved. It's like pointing out that cities could trivially
> prevent all illegal parking by putting appropriate sensors in every
> parking space. It's true, but not remotely worth the effort. 100%
> enforcement of anything is often far more trouble than it's worth.

If tethering an iPhone becomes a service for which AT&T charges $30/month
(which would be consistent with AT&T's other data product pricing), rest
assured that it will be worth it to AT&T to ensure that only customers who
pay that fee get to tether.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 02:35 GMT
> > It's utterly ludicrous to think this would actually be worth the effort
> > for anyone involved. It's like pointing out that cities could trivially
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> assured that it will be worth it to AT&T to ensure that only customers who
> pay that fee get to tether.

If you look through various wireless user forums, it doesn't look like
they're especially good at enforcing this with other phones.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting people should tether without paying for a
tethering plan. I just think the people claiming that universal
enforcement on the carrier side is trivial and/or hard but worth the
effort are, well, wrong. It's not trivial, and the benefits of universal
enforcement are very marginal, given its costs, when compared with
simply spot checking the activity of the real bandwidth hogs.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 27 Jun 2009 22:59 GMT

> >that's also vague. that does not say whether they actually can tell if
> >someone is tethering and if they can, whether they are going to take
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> example, you're not going to see Bitorrent type traffic from a native
> iPhone application, but will see if from a tethered laptop.

True, but P2P itself is a ToS violation, isn't it?  Even above and beyond
tethering without an appropriate plan.

Besides, I doubt the ToS prevents you from using non-app store apps, so a
jailbroken phone might be able to do P2P.

> Methinks it's highly probable that AT&T is sniffing and cataloging
> traffic by type.  That's because data bandwidth is a precious and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> <http://www.solarwinds.com/products/orion/nta/>
> There are plenty others.  Search Google for "Netflow Analyzer".

True, but the point is that as smartphones get smarter, they can do the
same things computers do.  There's a BT client for WinMo, so how might
AT&T tell you were doing P2P on your Fuze or Epix vs. from a laptop
tethered to a Fuze or Epix?  

> Whether AT&T has written routines to identify tethered users is
> speculative but probable.  In the distant past, the Pre-AT&T Comcast
> was sniffing traffic to identify users that had multiple computahs
> hidden behind NAT routers, and was sending them a bill for those
> additional computers since the TOS only allowed one machine at a time.
> I wouldn't put it past AT&T to do the same with tethering.

Perhaps, but again, it's probably more troble than it's worth.  Why waste
time or CPU cycles crunching and analysing the data used by a millions of
customers pulling the "average" 150MB a month, when you can just randomly
"audit" some of the top 5% or 10% of the users.  I suspect such data is
gathered more for statistical trend analysis, rather than individual
compliance.  AT&T rarely bothers to bust smartphone users using dumbphone
data plans, and that just requires an IMEI lookup! If they can't be
bothered to verify that, I strongly doubt they're analyzing individual
users' data patterns very closely.  It'd be like expecting Inspector
Cleuseau to run a DNA test after you noticed he didn't know how to hold a
magnifying glass!


> Whether they do it correctly is another bad guess.  Probably not. Adam
> Savage of Mythbusters fame got an $11,000 bill from AT&T for allegedly
> downloading 9GBytes while in Canada.  

Apparently he needs to bust the myth that Canada isn't a foreign
country... ;)

> The bill was immediately
> "settled" by AT&T, which really means that they would look like idiots
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> <http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Mythbusters-Savage-The-Latest-Socked-With-Hug
e-3G-Bill-103147
>
> <http://twitter.com/donttrythis>

I'll get in another Customer Service "attaboy" for my friends at T-Mobile:
recently they started sending text mesages to customers warning them of
high roaming costs each time your phone roams onto a different foreign
carrier.  They also have a free (even while roaming!) international
customer support line that'll talk you through rates and how to disable
cellular data.

(They've always texted the int'l support number to foreign roamers, but the
data cost warning is new..)

> More on tethering.  Looks like AT&T is trying to answer some of the
> rumors while waiting for the Verizon iPhone to be announced:
> <http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Oh-ATT-Tethering-Sources-You-Taunt-Us-103039>

> Lots of opinions and guesses, but the consensus seems to be that AT&T
> can detect tethering.

Presumably that's a function of the iPhone tethering app, rather than any
sleuthing by AT&T.  Apple designed a very carrier-friendly device.  I'd be
very shocked if the built-in tethering function didn't announce to the
carrier its intention.  As I said earlier, Sprint replaces the usual
tethering app in their HTC phone with one that "squeals" to Sprint that
you're tethering, so Sprint can allow the connection or block it depending
on your data plan.  Users can replace the app with one ripped from a non-
Sprint HTC phone, or buy PDANet or WiFiRouter to get around it.

So, at least with Sprint, relying on the phone finking is the primary
detection method,which is better than what they used before: a Sprint
management buddy of mine admitted to me a few years ago that (at that time)
their only detection method was data metering- "too much" indicated
tethering, and they fired off a "don't do it again" warning letter.

> Drivel:  What I think of mandatory data plans with smart phones:
> "48% of Americans Would Drop Mobile Data Service Completely"

<http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=PressReleaseViewer&a0=475
1>
> Of course, they're all lying as watching YouTube over the iPhone is
> approaching saturation:
> <http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/iPhone-3GS-Drives-Explosion-In-YouTube-Use-103145>


But might that just be the cart leading the horse?  If I'm forced to buy
something I didn't want, I'm going to make the best of it.  Without a
mandatory data plan, those YouTube video uploads might've just waited until
the user got home!

I think there's a huge market for a cellular data-less iPod Phone.  And
frankly so does AT&T or they wouldn't make data mandatory.  ;)  McDonald's
doesn't have to make fries mandatory with a burger purchase- 90% of the
customers buy them willingly.  If most iPhone customers would willingly
choose a dataplan, AT&T wouldn't have to hold a virtual gun to their heads
to buy it!
Jeff Liebermann - 28 Jun 2009 18:24 GMT
>True, but P2P itself is a ToS violation, isn't it?  Even above and beyond
>tethering without an appropriate plan.

Yep.  No P2P.  You really should read the TOS to see what else is
against the rules:
<http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp>
Search for "Prohibited and Permissible Uses".  It's quite a long list.
The section that prohibits tethering is quite clear:
   Furthermore, plans (unless specifically designated for tethering
   usage) cannot be used for any applications that tether the device
   (through use of, including without limitation, connection kits,
   other phone/PDA-to computer accessories, BLUETOOTH® or any other
   wireless technology) to Personal Computers (including without
   limitation, laptops), or other equipment for any purpose.
There are some other mentions of tethering in the TOS, but those are
specific to PDA/Blackberry, and does not mention the iPhone.  Note
that the iPhone ToS are slightly different from the other plans:
<http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp#iPhone>
but do include the tethering restriction.

So that there's no mistake, you are expected to *ONLY* use your iPhone
for:
   Except as may otherwise be specifically permitted or prohibited
   for select data plans, data sessions may be conducted only for
   the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and
   (iii) intranet access.
That's it, no more.  None of the other nifty internet applications are
allowed.  I guess AT&T needs to take a look at the Apps Store and
consider the possibility that the iPhone might be useful for other
purposes.

This was recently added for the "benefit" of iPhone users:
   If it is determined that you are using iPhone or other designated
   Smartphone or PDA without an eligible data plan, AT&T reserves the
   right to add an eligible data plan to your account and bill you
   the appropriate monthly fee.  Use of iPhone 3G to access corporate
   email, company intranet sites, and/or other business applications
   requires an Enterprise Data Plan for iPhone. For applicable rates,
   terms and conditions, see AT&T Business Plans for iPhone 3G
   brochure.
Digging further:
   The $30 data plan for iPhone does not allow access to corporate
   email, company intranet sites, and other business applications

So, do individual AT&T iPhone users purchase an Enterprise Data Plan
so that they can legally pickup their office or business email?

>Besides, I doubt the ToS prevents you from using non-app store apps, so a
>jailbroken phone might be able to do P2P.

I couldn't find anything in the wireless or data terms of service that
prohibits modifications to the phone.  It's usually there, but I
either missed it, or someone at AT&T forgot.  However P2P is
specifically mentioned (see above) as a prohibited use.

Incidentally, I did find that AT&T does not obligate itself to enforce
their own rules:
<http://www.att.com/gen/general?pid=11561>
   19. ENFORCEMENT
   AT&T reserves the right but does not assume the obligation
   to strictly enforce these Terms,...
That makes it easy to be arbitrary and selective.

>True, but the point is that as smartphones get smarter, they can do the
>same things computers do.

Perhaps you haven't seen the advertisements.  A smartphone is not a
computer.  It's an entertainment device, status symbol, fashion
accessory, restaurant finder, and game machine.  I have yet to see a
TV commercial showing a smartphone being used in a useful manner.

>There's a BT client for WinMo, so how might
>AT&T tell you were doing P2P on your Fuze or Epix vs. from a laptop
>tethered to a Fuze or Epix?  

Sure.  There's a fine balance between encouraging customers to
over-use their data plans, versus "protecting the network" by limiting
bandwidth and usage caps.  AT&T even disguises the effort under "Smart
Limits" allegedly for kids:
<http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/parental-controls/smart-lim
its.jsp
>
Add $5/month to help AT&T reduce usage.

>Perhaps, but again, it's probably more troble than it's worth.  Why waste
>time or CPU cycles crunching and analysing the data used by a millions of
>customers pulling the "average" 150MB a month, when you can just randomly
>"audit" some of the top 5% or 10% of the users.

Agreed.  The original question was whether it was possible to detect
tethering.  I offered several methods that I think would work.  I
never suggested that AT&T should or might be sniffing for tethering.
However, I did suggest that it was possible.  

>I suspect such data is
>gathered more for statistical trend analysis, rather than individual
>compliance.

Yep.  The privacy policy states that such information may be gathered.

>AT&T rarely bothers to bust smartphone users using dumbphone
>data plans, and that just requires an IMEI lookup! If they can't be
>bothered to verify that, I strongly doubt they're analyzing individual
>users' data patterns very closely.  It'd be like expecting Inspector
>Cleuseau to run a DNA test after you noticed he didn't know how to hold a
>magnifying glass!

Also true.  They're also required to keep any data they collect in
their efforts to enforce the DMCA so that those records may later be
used in court action.  I'll guess that AT&T does exactly what every
other sane ISP does, and vaporize the traffic reports as soon as the
reports are generated.

>> Whether they do it correctly is another bad guess.  Probably not. Adam
>> Savage of Mythbusters fame got an $11,000 bill from AT&T for allegedly
>> downloading 9GBytes while in Canada.  
>
>Apparently he needs to bust the myth that Canada isn't a foreign
>country... ;)

It is a foreign country according to his data plan:
<http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp#iPhone>
   International Roaming: Substantial charges may be incurred
   if phone is taken out of the U.S. even if no services are
   intentionally used. Receipt of Visual Voicemail messages when
   roaming internationally are charged at international data pay
   per use rates unless customer has an international iPhone plan,
   in which case receipt of Visual Voicemail messages decrement
   kilobytes included in the international plan.
Unless I'm reading this wrong, AT&T can bill someone for simply taking
an iPhone out of the country and not intentionally using it?  I'm sure
that's not what was meant, but that's the way I read it.  Perhaps AT&T
could use a legal proof reader.

>So, at least with Sprint, relying on the phone finking is the primary
>detection method,which is better than what they used before: a Sprint
>management buddy of mine admitted to me a few years ago that (at that time)
>their only detection method was data metering- "too much" indicated
>tethering, and they fired off a "don't do it again" warning letter.

Yep.  That's the easy way.  No complicated software, no detailed
evidence, and no messy log file archiving.  In my limited experience,
providers has some idea of what constitutes "normal" operation.  If
something sticks out well above normal, it must be abuse.
Incidentally, the average wireless data plan use for all providers is
about 5 MBytes per month.  iPhone users are substantially above that
at about 30 MBytes per month and climbing (as of about 6 months ago).

>> Drivel:  What I think of mandatory data plans with smart phones:
>> "48% of Americans Would Drop Mobile Data Service Completely"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>mandatory data plan, those YouTube video uploads might've just waited until
>the user got home!

One of my pet peeves is that all providers demand a mandatory data
plan if users activate a smartphone or PDAphone.  My phones have Wi-Fi
and I don't need 3G wireless.  However, every vendor went the route
that Apple and AT&T pioneered by forcing the users to buy a data plan.
That might explain the fairly low average usage of 5 MBytes/month as
many users don't even know that they're paying for a data plan.  That
also explains the fairly high uptake on data plans with new phones
along with the increasing data ARPU for all vendors.  If customers
won't buy voluntarily, shove it down their throats.

Whether the user is smart enough to distinguish between a free Wi-Fi
YouTube download, and a potentially expensive 3G download, is subject
to speculation.  I've quizzed iPhone users about such things.  The
fanatics know the difference.  The one's that buy iPhones for fashion
statements or other dubious reasons, do not (even after I explain it).
Just operating the iTunes application is a challenge for most.

>I think there's a huge market for a cellular data-less iPod Phone.

Ummm.... It's called the iPod Touch.  I have a 2nd generation model.
All the iPhone apps work, except those that require the GPS.  I use a
junk cell phone for talking.  One huge advantage is that I can look at
my schedule while yacking on the phone (and not using a BT ear thing).
One feature that would be nice is to replicate the address book and
contacts between the cell phone and iPod Touch directly, without
requiring a double sync via computah.

>And
>frankly so does AT&T or they wouldn't make data mandatory.  ;)

Actually, I'm totally surprised that AT&T didn't insist that Apple
disable, cripple, or remove the Wi-Fi feature from the iPhone.

>McDonald's
>doesn't have to make fries mandatory with a burger purchase- 90% of the
>customers buy them willingly.  If most iPhone customers would willingly
>choose a dataplan, AT&T wouldn't have to hold a virtual gun to their heads
>to buy it!

One of the local McDonald's accidentally priced their "meal"
combination of burger, fries, and drink higher than the individual
components would have cost.  It wasn't much (about 10 cents as I
recall).  It was about a month later before anyone noticed.  Think of
it as "bundling", with an arithmetic challenged customer base.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
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ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 18:43 GMT
> >True, but P2P itself is a ToS violation, isn't it?  Even above and beyond
> >tethering without an appropriate plan.
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> So, do individual AT&T iPhone users purchase an Enterprise Data Plan
> so that they can legally pickup their office or business email?

Heh. That's pretty absurd even for a cellular carrier. The notion that
anyone will take it seriously is rather farfetched. I seriously doubt if
even AT&T will take it seriously.

Honestly, most modern ToS agreements seem to follow the principle
pioneered by police states: make sure everyone is guilty of something,
so if anyone ever does anything you don't like, you have something
"legitimate" to charge them with.

[snip]

> It is a foreign country according to his data plan:
> <http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp#iPhone>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that's not what was meant, but that's the way I read it.  Perhaps AT&T
> could use a legal proof reader.

That's *exactly* what they mean. If you take your phone out of the
country and it automatically downloads a few of megabytes of voicemail
messages or some e-mail, expect AT&T to try to charge you an extra $300.

[snip]

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Blutarsky - 28 Jun 2009 19:16 GMT
> That's *exactly* what they mean. If you take your phone out of the
> country and it automatically downloads a few of megabytes of voicemail
> messages or some e-mail, expect AT&T to try to charge you an extra
> $300.

A case of the end user not understanding the technology they are buying?
ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 19:38 GMT
> Whether the user is smart enough to distinguish between a free Wi-Fi
> YouTube download, and a potentially expensive 3G download, is subject
> to speculation.  I've quizzed iPhone users about such things.  The
> fanatics know the difference.  The one's that buy iPhones for fashion
> statements or other dubious reasons, do not

By the way, I like the way you divide iPhone purchasers into two groups:
"fanatics" and "one's that buy iPhones for fashion statements or other
dubious reasons".

Because obviously no well balanced person could ever buy an iPhone for
legitimate reasons.

Nope. No bias here.

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Jeff Liebermann - 28 Jun 2009 21:56 GMT
>> Whether the user is smart enough to distinguish between a free Wi-Fi
>> YouTube download, and a potentially expensive 3G download, is subject
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>"fanatics" and "one's that buy iPhones for fashion statements or other
>dubious reasons".

I'll stand by my prejudices, observations and distortions.  I know
about 13 assorted iPhone users including one family/business that has
5 of them.  The users vary in competence from programmer to clueless
and spoiled teenager.  I always look for the real reason behind their
selection.  In some cases, it was easy.  The boss or parent gave them
one for Christmas.  Some are obvious fashion statements as they have
never used the Apps Store or even bothered to setup iTunes.  Also, the
lack of a functional belt holster promotes the "wave it in everyone's
face" mode.  Look at me... I have a smart phone, which makes me smart.

Obviously, the bell curve allows for a large number of sane and sober
individuals between these extremes.  Some of them perhaps use the
iPhone effectively.  A clue is how many apps they've downloaded and
installed.  Those that have approximately 2-3 pages of apps icons,
would be considered fairly normal.  The fanatics run out of room at
about 5 pages.  The clueless have the stock 1.5 pages.  Just like I
can tell quite a bit about a person by looking at their bookshelf, I
can also deduce much by looking at the number and type of iPhone apps.

Personally, I think the main draw of the iPhone is the perceived ease
of use.  It's so simple a cave person could use one, as paraphrased
from another obnoxious TV commercial.  The iPhone looks simple, but to
be used effectively, requires practice, RTFM, and diligent reading.
There are also some limitations that aren't immediately apparent.  For
example, having to delete email one message at a time is rather
limiting.  So much for easy to use.  The fashion statement buyers will
never dive below the superficial easy to use surface.  The fanatics
will dig deep, writing apps, jailbreaking, and hacking at features. In
between, most users are impressed with the look, tolerate the marginal
design decisions, live with the tight ties to Apple, pay the price,
and live blissfully ignorant of what they're missing.

What to do with your iPhone while NOT connected to the internet:
Rearrange your icons.  It's almost as much fun as a Rubick's Cube.

>Because obviously no well balanced person could ever buy an iPhone for
>legitimate reasons.

Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.  I
actually believe that.  If you interrogate your friends and associates
that purchased an iPhone, I think you'll find the motivation to be
anything but productivity.  Sure, productivity apps and other
legitimate reasons play a big part in the decision, but rarely
motivate the buyer enough to use the credit card.  It's usually subtle
reasons like "Joe in engineering has one.  He's smart so maybe I
should do the same".  Plenty of other dumb reasons can be extracted if
you ask the right questions.  

One reason that AT&T hasn't blundered upon yet is the two for the
price of one promotion that Verizon and others had on the Blackberry
products earlier this year.  It wasn't just the cost savings, which
was marginalized by some useless mandatory options.  It was "I want a
Blackberry for myself.  If I give one to xxxxxx, then I have an excuse
to get one for myself".  It worked because the various Blackberrys
outsold the iPhone by a substantial margin during the first quarter
2009.  (Current numbers will probably be the other way around).

>Nope. No bias here.

Yep.  I hate everyone and everything equally.

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ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 22:28 GMT
> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.I
> actually believe that.

You're insane. The phone has better hardware specs than practically any
other smart phone on the market, a richer collection of third-party
apps, better designed software, and integrates with the world's most
popular digital media distribution platform... you don't think any of
those are legitimate reasons to buy it?

> If you interrogate your friends and associates that purchased an
> iPhone, I think you'll find the motivation to be anything but
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Plenty of other dumb reasons can be extracted if you ask the right
> questions.  

First, while the iPhone has all sorts of useful productivity
applications these days, it's primarily a "consumer media smart phone"
not an "enterprise productivity smart phone". I don't particularly see
how it's invalid to buy a phone as a mobile media device rather than to
obsessively check company e-mail. (And I'm a little confused that this
still has to be explained to people two years after the iPhone entered
the market.)

Second, you're completely overlooking user experience. If you're like
the other Apple detractors who have made arguments along these lines,
you probably don't acknowledge its existence as a legitimate factor in
purchasing decisions, considering it to be more about fashion than
function.

But this perspective couldn't be more wrong. The truth is that a lot of
other phones might technically have all the iPhone's features... but
people use them much less because they're not implemented as usefully.
In cases where statistics exist, they strongly support this. In some
cases these features are implemented so poorly on other devices, and the
vendor is so bad at communicating the use cases of the device to the
consumer, that people are walking around with phones that have these
features and *don't even know it*.

> One reason that AT&T hasn't blundered upon yet is the two for the
> price of one promotion that Verizon and others had on the Blackberry
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> first quarter 2009.  (Current numbers will probably be the other way
> around).

I suspect this back-and-forth between Apple and RIM has more to do with
device upgrade cycles than with carriers' promotional offers.

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 28 Jun 2009 22:59 GMT
>> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.I
>> actually believe that.
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> I suspect this back-and-forth between Apple and RIM has more to do with
> device upgrade cycles than with carriers' promotional offers.
Todd Allcock - 28 Jun 2009 23:27 GMT
Oops, I just fired off a blank reply- sorry!

I'll try again...

>> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.I
>> actually believe that.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> popular digital media distribution platform... you don't think any of
> those are legitimate reasons to buy it?

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to buy it.  There MUST be, since I
bought one for my wife!  ;)

However, in our case, we only bought it because it could be unlocked and
used off of AT&T.  We would not pay AT&T $30/month for data.  And despite
"the world's most popular digital media distribution platform" I find iTunes
more of a roadblock than a "feature."  Her prior smartphone could sync with
any computer in the house, the iPhone syncs with one.  Her prior smartphone
could play video in several formats, the iPhone plays .mp4.

When it comes down to it, the ease of use, the UI, and the app store are the
ONLY features she likes about the iPhone- everything else is a restriction
that at best is an inconvenience, and at worse results in not using some
features or capabilities.

In short, the iPhone is "easy" to the end-user, (her) and a hassle for her
IT department (me)!

>> If you interrogate your friends and associates that purchased an
>> iPhone, I think you'll find the motivation to be anything but
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> still has to be explained to people two years after the iPhone entered
> the market.)

I agree- I just wish AT&T agreed here in the US.  People that primarily want
to use it as a mobile media device don't necessarily need or want a data
plan "to obsessively check company [or personal] e-mail" but they have to
take a $30 data plan with their iPhone, so they might as well use it.  AT&T
essentially charges users who want a good "iPod phone" a $360/year "tax" to
use one.

> Second, you're completely overlooking user experience. If you're like
> the other Apple detractors who have made arguments along these lines,
> you probably don't acknowledge its existence as a legitimate factor in
> purchasing decisions, considering it to be more about fashion than
> function.

The UI is great- the "user experience," however, is more than just the UI.
The "user experience" includes, in my wife's case, obsessively emailing
yourself documents before traveling since you can't natively store them on
the phone for reference later, scrubbing the phone's face after every phone
call to clean the smudges off it, "single-tasking" because you can't check
email or surf the web while streaming a podcast or internet radio, or
reading email but waiting until you're near a "real" computer to reply
because you can't face the idea of typing more than a sentence or two on the
on-screen keyboard (she's a long-time QWERTY phone user and claims she still
hates the on-screen keyboard after seven months of use.)

It's not so much a testament to the "greatness" of the iPhone as much as a
slam to other smartphones that despite these shortcomings, it's still her
favorite phone of any she's ever used!

> But this perspective couldn't be more wrong. The truth is that a lot of
> other phones might technically have all the iPhone's features... but
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> consumer, that people are walking around with phones that have these
> features and *don't even know it*.

I think vendor communication is a key point.  My oft-repeated anecdote
illustrates this: after seeing the first iPhone commercial aired in the US
(where "Mr. Hand" is watching "Pirates of the Caribbean", decides he wants
calimari, finds a restaurant on Google Maps and calls it) my wife said
"what's the big deal?  Your phone does all that!"  While that was certainly
true, I had to tell her "So does YOURS!"  She had no idea what her T-Mobile
Dash could do besides email, a few preloaded games, text docs, and the
occasional movie on a long flight.  She never bothered with Google Maps
(still doesn't, even on the iPhone) and didn't care even when I told her or
showed her what "more" it could do.  It was "too much trouble."

>> One reason that AT&T hasn't blundered upon yet is the two for the
>> price of one promotion that Verizon and others had on the Blackberry
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I suspect this back-and-forth between Apple and RIM has more to do with
> device upgrade cycles than with carriers' promotional offers.

Agreed- Apple has already "programmed" us that the "new iPhone" will be out
in June/July, and 1st and 2nd quarter sales drop off accordingly.  The
iPhone has a real boom/bust cycle.
nospam - 28 Jun 2009 23:49 GMT
> The UI is great- the "user experience," however, is more than just the UI.
> The "user experience" includes, in my wife's case, obsessively emailing
> yourself documents before traveling since you can't natively store them on
> the phone for reference later,

there are a number of apps that solve that problem.

> scrubbing the phone's face after every phone
> call to clean the smudges off it,

get her an iphone 3gs with the oleophobic coating. :)

> "single-tasking" because you can't check
> email or surf the web while streaming a podcast or internet radio,

true, but email is checked while listening to the streaming podcast,
and if it's a podcast that's downloaded via itunes, you can continue to
listen to it while surfing or using email or anything else. only games
that generate their own soundtrack would interfere (and some have an
option whether or not to override the ipod).

> or reading email but waiting until you're near a "real" computer to reply
> because you can't face the idea of typing more than a sentence or two on the
> on-screen keyboard (she's a long-time QWERTY phone user and claims she still
> hates the on-screen keyboard after seven months of use.)

a real keyboard is certainly easier and i expect that will change with
the hardware accessibility apis.
Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 00:40 GMT
>a real keyboard is certainly easier and i expect that will change with
>the hardware accessibility apis.

USB keyboard for the iPhone and iPod Touch:
<http://www.ihomecomputer.com/product_center.asp?dept_id=100027&sub_dept=100038>
<http://technabob.com/blog/2009/06/15/iconnect-keyboard-with-ipod-dock/>
Available this summer (maybe) for about $150 list.

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ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 01:31 GMT
> >a real keyboard is certainly easier and i expect that will change with
> >the hardware accessibility apis.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> <http://technabob.com/blog/2009/06/15/iconnect-keyboard-with-ipod-dock/>
> Available this summer (maybe) for about $150 list.

This is a keyboard for your desktop computer that has a build-in iPhone
dock, not a keyboard for the iPhone.

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 02:06 GMT
>> >a real keyboard is certainly easier and i expect that will change with
>> >the hardware accessibility apis.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>This is a keyboard for your desktop computer that has a build-in iPhone
>dock, not a keyboard for the iPhone.

Bummer.  You're right.  There's no direct connection between the
iPhone and the keyboard.  Sorry.

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ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 00:23 GMT
> Oops, I just fired off a blank reply- sorry!
>
> I'll try again...

[snip]

> > First, while the iPhone has all sorts of useful productivity
> > applications these days, it's primarily a "consumer media smart phone"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> essentially charges users who want a good "iPod phone" a $360/year "tax" to
> use one.

I still don't really agree with the notion that it makes sense for a
device like the iPhone to be without ubiquitous data access. As with the
modern desktop computer, ubiquitous high-speed data is quickly becoming
a defining characteristic of mobile computing.

> > Second, you're completely overlooking user experience. If you're like
> > the other Apple detractors who have made arguments along these lines,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> yourself documents before traveling since you can't natively store them on
> the phone for reference later,

There are numerous apps that solve this problem. I use Air Sharing.
Apple is working on a first-party solution as well, in the form of an
app that lets Mobile Me users view files on their iDisks from the iPhone.

> scrubbing the phone's face after every phone
> call to clean the smudges off it,

I read e-books on my phone a lot, so I'm rather sensitive to this, and I
have to say, the new screen coating on the 3GS isn't just a gimmick. It
really works. I wonder how it'll hold up over time.

> "single-tasking" because you can't check email or surf the web while
> streaming a podcast or internet radio,

But if you download podcasts into iTunes (which you can now do directly
on the device) you can play them in the background.

Background audio from third-party apps is, I think, the one edge case
where Apple's otherwise generally advantageous policy against
third-party background apps actually has negative consequences.

> or reading email but waiting until you're near a "real" computer to
> reply because you can't face the idea of typing more than a sentence
> or two on the on-screen keyboard (she's a long-time QWERTY phone user
> and claims she still hates the on-screen keyboard after seven months
> of use.)

The horizontal keyboard in the e-mail and SMS apps in 3.0 has made these
applications substantially nicer to use, and I find I'm using them quite
a bit more as a result.

[snip]

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 29 Jun 2009 06:20 GMT
> >  People that primarily want to use it as a mobile media device don't
> >  necessarily need or want a data plan "to obsessively check company [or
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> modern desktop computer, ubiquitous high-speed data is quickly becoming
> a defining characteristic of mobile computing.

While that's fair, the iPod Touch seems to do just fine with only WiFi for
connectivity.  
As a parent of school-aged children, I've talked to many a iPhone-toting
parent who've bought Touches for their kids instead of iPhones to avoid
data plans.  Kids play music and text- they don't do email or do much
browsing.  Now obviously one can argue that "nobody got hurt"- the kids
have their iPods, Apple still sold a product, and AT&T didn't "waste" an
iPhone subsidy, but the customers themselves, while satisfied, aren't
enthusiastic.

> > The UI is great- the "user experience," however, is more than just the UI.
> > The "user experience" includes, in my wife's case, obsessively emailing
> > yourself documents before traveling since you can't natively store them on
> > the phone for reference later,
>
> There are numerous apps that solve this problem. I use Air Sharing.

That's almost as much of a kludge as emailing documents!

> Apple is working on a first-party solution as well, in the form of an
> app that lets Mobile Me users view files on their iDisks from the iPhone.

That's a little better, other than forking over the $99/year for MobileMe,
of course, and presumably requires connectivity.  

 
> > scrubbing the phone's face after every phone
> > call to clean the smudges off it,
>
> I read e-books on my phone a lot, so I'm rather sensitive to this, and I
> have to say, the new screen coating on the 3GS isn't just a gimmick. It
> really works. I wonder how it'll hold up over time.

Perhaps Apple wlil sell it in an aerosol can for users of older iPhones..
;)  I tried a scren protector, but my wife didn't like the feel- I
couldn't really blame her- there's something nice about the smooth glass
that's lost when you cover it in cling film!


> > "single-tasking" because you can't check email or surf the web while
> > streaming a podcast or internet radio,
>
> But if you download podcasts into iTunes (which you can now do directly
> on the device) you can play them in the background.

True- but I was referring to streaming.

> Background audio from third-party apps is, I think, the one edge case
> where Apple's otherwise generally advantageous policy against
> third-party background apps actually has negative consequences.

Navigation too, when available, but my wife has no interest in using the
phone for navigation, so it won't matter to her.  


> > or reading email but waiting until you're near a "real" computer to
> > reply because you can't face the idea of typing more than a sentence
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> applications substantially nicer to use, and I find I'm using them quite
> a bit more as a result.

Until Apple comes up with an official solution for the random WiFi/BT "grey
out", I'm not risking a two year-old out-of-warranty phone by upgrading it!
(Which is bugging me because I really want to try 3.0, but I'm not even
sure there's a Windows Pwnage tool yet, anyway...)
nospam - 29 Jun 2009 07:04 GMT
> > > The "user experience" includes, in my wife's case, obsessively emailing
> > > yourself documents before traveling since you can't natively store them
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> That's almost as much of a kludge as emailing documents!

not really.  all you do is run the app on the iphone and double-click
an alias on the computer to wirelessly mount the iphone as another hard
drive, then drag whatever you need to the iphone.  the numerous apps
that do this display all sorts of content, including microsoft office
documents.

> Until Apple comes up with an official solution for the random WiFi/BT "grey
> out", I'm not risking a two year-old out-of-warranty phone by upgrading it!
> (Which is bugging me because I really want to try 3.0, but I'm not even
> sure there's a Windows Pwnage tool yet, anyway...)

there is.
Todd Allcock - 29 Jun 2009 07:49 GMT
> > > > The "user experience" includes, in my wife's case, obsessively emailing
> > > > yourself documents before traveling since you can't natively store them
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that do this display all sorts of content, including microsoft office
> documents.

So, when a co-worker emails her a document she wants to reference later,
she just has to run home, save it to our PC, run Airshare on the iPhone,
and drag it to virtual iPhone drive, rather than tapping the attachment
directly in the email on the iPhone and selecting "save."  I concede
defeat!  That's not kludgey at all!  ;)
   
> > Until Apple comes up with an official solution for the random WiFi/BT "grey
> > out", I'm not risking a two year-old out-of-warranty phone by upgrading it!
> > (Which is bugging me because I really want to try 3.0, but I'm not even
> > sure there's a Windows Pwnage tool yet, anyway...)
>
> there is.

Thanks.  I stopped checking iClarified after the WiFi/BT fiasco scared the
bejeezus out of me.  Good to know I'll be ready to go when Apple addresses
the bug.
John Blutarsky - 28 Jun 2009 23:28 GMT
ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in news:znu-84200C.17280328062009
@Port80.Individual.NET:

>> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.I
>> actually believe that.
>
> You're insane. The phone has better hardware specs than practically any
> other smart phone on the market,

Just curious- which specs are you looking at when you come to this
conclusion?
ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 00:10 GMT
> ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in news:znu-84200C.17280328062009
> @Port80.Individual.NET:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Just curious- which specs are you looking at when you come to this
> conclusion?

Processor, RAM, screen size and resolution, 3G speed, storage, GPU, and
the presence of features like accelerometers, light sensors, GPS and
magnetometers.

Please note that I don't think comparing the spec sheets and feature
bullet points of phones is necessarily the best way to pick one. In
fact, I think it's generally not. But the sort of people who don't
really "get" the iPhone tend to care more about tech specs than more
important things like usability, so it's rather worth pointing out that
the iPhone has pretty good tech specs too.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 02:00 GMT
>> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.I
>> actually believe that.
>
>You're insane.

Yeah, probably true.  As a Verizon customer and Windoze user, one has
to be insane to post my opinions in a Mac advocacy newsgroup. However,
it's not my fault.  Blame John Navas for his selection of groups in
the original posting.

Oh wait.... I have a Mac G4 Cube in the office running OS/X 11.3.  I
guess that qualifies me as a Mac user and therefore entitled to voice
an opinion.

>The phone has better hardware specs than practically any
>other smart phone on the market, a richer collection of third-party
>apps, better designed software, and integrates with the world's most
>popular digital media distribution platform... you don't think any of
>those are legitimate reasons to buy it?

Full disclosure:  In a past life, I played RF designer but never
designed a cell phone.  The closest I came was accessories for IMTS
phones and some trunking systems.

I'm not sure what parts of the hardware you find superior, but if
you're referring to the RF sections, the typical Blackberry (Curve) is
somewhat better.

I find the iPhone to be fairly typical hardware and the result of some
necessary compromises.  The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
bandwidth), so it was released with only an EDGE modem.  Rumor has it
that the non-removable battery was used because the original battery
was too small to run the iPhone all day.  To fit a larger battery, the
hardware involved in battery connections and mounting were removed.

Wi-Fi range on both the iPhone and iPod Touch are very limited due to
an undersized antenna and limited RF power (and possibly limited
sensitivity).  The FCC test specs shows 9 to 11dBm power output into
1.2dBi gain antenna.
<https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=112144
9&native_or_pdf=pdf
>
The typical laptop miniPCI card will do about 30dBm into about 2dbi.
My Acer Aspire One will do about 100ft to my office access point.  My
iPod Touch will barely go 15ft.  Oddly, a friends 1G (first
generation) iPod Touch version will go perhaps 30ft.

SAR for the 3G is 1.4 watts/kg, which is on the high end probably due
to reflections from the metal back.  (1.6w/kg is the max for Canada).
The first model and the 3G S models were all lower.
<http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6602_7-6258775-11.html?tag=rb_content;rb_mtx>
FCC data for the 3G:
<https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&
RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=227268&fcc_id=%27BCGA1241%27
>
I've found that the range on the iPhone is typical of phones with
internal antennas, but less than those with external projecting
antennas.  I haven't done any bench testing, beyond ripping apart
several iPod Touch PDA's to replace the battery.  What a PITA.

Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
connector.  Well, at least they got the earphone jack correct.

I'm not sure if you include mechanical construction in your "better
hardware specs".  If you've ever tried to replace the battery
yourself, you'll wonder if it was designed to be repaired.  Probably
not.

I've bid on several broken iPod Touch units on eBay (without success).
Apparently broken displays and water damage are common.

I must admit that the sound and display on my iPod Touch are far
superior to the crappy sound and fuzzy display on my Verizon XV6700.
Same with a processor that keeps up with compressed video.  Of course,
it's twice as fast as the one in my XV6700.

>First, while the iPhone has all sorts of useful productivity
>applications these days, it's primarily a "consumer media smart phone"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>still has to be explained to people two years after the iPhone entered
>the market.)

Good point.  I'm sure the IRS will be thrilled to know that it's a
non-deductable consumer device instead of a deductible business
productivity tool.  We also won't tell them about the games.

I agree that there are many useful apps, but from my warped
perspective, there are few that I consider compelling or that I can't
function without.  I'm sure there are those that have sufficiently
integrated their iPhone into their lives that a temporary outage or
loss might be fatal.  Strictly speaking, any reason is considered a
"legitimate reason" to buy an iPhone.  In a business sense, that means
apps that are in some way related to running the business.  However,
if as you say that it's not an "enterprise productivity smart phone"
but rather a consumer appliance, none of these business apps would
apply.

Rather than lecture on the subject of merchandising and motivational
marketing, perhaps I can offer some reading material on why people buy
and do things.  There's plenty of psychology and magic involved in
product design.  Any of the old Wilson Bryan Key books on subliminals
in advertising is a good and entertaining start.  The bottom line is
that we are motivated by much more than just "productivity".

>Second, you're completely overlooking user experience.

Nope.  I'm a user and I'm somewhat experienced.  I find the iPod Touch
and iPhone to be rather clumsy, feature limited, and awkward.  That's
compensated by a nifty display, multitouch, and cheap apps.

>If you're like
>the other Apple detractors who have made arguments along these lines,
>you probably don't acknowledge its existence as a legitimate factor in
>purchasing decisions, considering it to be more about fashion than
>function.

Well, I have an unusual perspective on what constitutes "legitimate"
reasons for buying a iPhone.  Near the bottom of the priority list is
productivity.  (In your own words, it's a "consumer media smart
phone", which is anything but useful for business).  Near the top of
the list are fashion statements, keeping up with the herd, group
think, fear of being left technically behind, wanting to look cool,
more money than good sense, a learning experience, and "I want only
the best".  None of these are legitimate, but they're quite common.

>But this perspective couldn't be more wrong. The truth is that a lot of
>other phones might technically have all the iPhone's features... but
>people use them much less because they're not implemented as usefully.

Right.  My XV6700 has all the features I could ever want.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/xv6700/XV6700.htm>
It's all there and what's missing can be added as a WM5 application.
What's wrong is that they're all broken or badly implemented.  There
isn't a single feature on the phone that doesn't to something weird or
buggy.  I'll spare you the specifics.  Three firmware revisions later,
the phone is officially obsolete, so nothing will be fixed.  

>In cases where statistics exist, they strongly support this. In some
>cases these features are implemented so poorly on other devices, and the
>vendor is so bad at communicating the use cases of the device to the
>consumer, that people are walking around with phones that have these
>features and *don't even know it*.

Features and functions get added faster than bugs get fixed.  The
inevitable result is a bloated buggy mess, but with lots of features.
I'm not sure I can give Apple credit for limiting the features on the
iPhone and iPod Touch.  It takes guts to leave out features.  However,
I must admit what I've seen on the iPhone is mostly workable.  Not the
best, not infinitely versatile, not totally configurable, but good
enough for most users.  If that's the plan for the future, I'm still
debating if I want to subscribe to that philosophy.  I'd prefer a
feature phone (but only if everything works as expected).

>I suspect this back-and-forth between Apple and RIM has more to do with
>device upgrade cycles than with carriers' promotional offers.

Nope.  It was pure price promotion (two for the price of one).
Incidentally, the average life of a US cell phone is still 18 months.
I'll see if I can find some numbers.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 04:24 GMT
>>I suspect this back-and-forth between Apple and RIM has more to do with
>>device upgrade cycles than with carriers' promotional offers.
>
>Nope.  It was pure price promotion (two for the price of one).
>Incidentally, the average life of a US cell phone is still 18 months.
>I'll see if I can find some numbers.

Some random numbers that might be of interest, or with luck,
marginally related to the topic under discussion:

The 5 best selling Smartphones for Q1 2009 are:
 1.  Blackberry Curve (all 83xx models)
 2.  Apple iPhone (all models)
 3.  Blackberry Storm.
 4.  Blackberry Pearl (not including flip)
 5.  T-Mobile G1
"RIM Unseats Apple in The NPD Group's Latest Smartphone Ranking.
Buy-one-get-one promotions helps RIM increase U.S. consumer market
share in first quarter of 2009"
<http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_090504.html>

US households with only cell phones Q3 and Q4 2008: 20%
[Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]

US Subscriber Stats:
                    Q1 2009           Total Subs at end
                 Net additions           of Q1 2009
Verizon              1.3 million          86.6 million
AT&T                 1.2 million          78.2 million
Sprint-Nextel        (182,000)            49.1 million
T-Mobile              415,000             33.2 million
[Source: CTIA]

"iPhone 3G Price Decrease Addresses Key Reason Consumers Exhibit
Purchase Resistance"
<http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_090622.html>
"When it comes to their reasons for not purchasing an iPhone, 18
percent of consumers who have not purchased an iPhone cited the
expense of the data plan..."

"Nearly Half of Mobile Phone Users Eschew Multimedia Features and Use
Handsets Solely to Make Calls"
<http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_090106.html>

"ONE IN THREE IPHONE 3G BUYERS SWITCHED FROM OTHER CARRIERS TO JOIN
AT&T"
<http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_081006.html>

"Newest iPhone model costs $179 to make"
<http://www.physorg.com/news165079855.html>

"How People Really Use the iPhone"
<www.createwithcontext.com/media/cwc-how-people-use-iphone.pdf>
Interesting study on the allegedly intuitive user interface, which
turns out to be not so intuitive for beginning users.  I recognize
some of the blunders and mistakes that I experiences while learning to
use the beast.

"iPhone More Reliable than BlackBerry, One Year In.  An Analysis of
Reported Malfunctions in iPhone, BlackBerry and Treo Handsets."
<http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_iPhone_Study_1108.pdf>
Just a summary as the associated report is missing (and costs money).

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 04:55 GMT
[snip]

> "Nearly Half of Mobile Phone Users Eschew Multimedia Features and Use
> Handsets Solely to Make Calls"
> <http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_090106.html>

Most phones have pretty crappy multimedia features, so this is
unsurprising.

> "ONE IN THREE IPHONE 3G BUYERS SWITCHED FROM OTHER CARRIERS TO JOIN
> AT&T"
> <http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_081006.html>
>
> "Newest iPhone model costs $179 to make"
> <http://www.physorg.com/news165079855.html>

Mind you, this analysis ignores the cost of distribution, marketing and
R&D, the last omission being particularly egregious.

> "How People Really Use the iPhone"
> <www.createwithcontext.com/media/cwc-how-people-use-iphone.pdf>
> Interesting study on the allegedly intuitive user interface, which
> turns out to be not so intuitive for beginning users.  I recognize
> some of the blunders and mistakes that I experiences while learning to
> use the beast.

Interesting. It's in the nature of gesture-based UI that it's somewhat
less discoverable than UI driven by commands specifically presented on
the screen. I don't think this is particularly problematic, however, as
the gestures (or so I've found, showing the iPhone to technophobic
users) are extremely intuitive once explained. Unlike more abstract
sequences of commands, once users learn them they don't forget them.

(And I really wish there were publicly available usability studies like
this for more platforms/software. Objective usability data would make
the sort of advocacy discussions I engage in much more interesting and
useful.)

> "iPhone More Reliable than BlackBerry, One Year In.  An Analysis of
> Reported Malfunctions in iPhone, BlackBerry and Treo Handsets."
> <http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_iPhone_Study_1108.pdf>
> Just a summary as the associated report is missing (and costs money).

Good find. Nice to have objective verification of my opinion that the
Treo is a piece of crap. (Was a pierce of crap? Palm seems to be moving
on.)

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 04:26 GMT
> >> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.I
> >> actually believe that.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
> bandwidth), so it was released with only an EDGE modem.

Source?

> Rumor has it that the non-removable battery was used because the
> original battery was too small to run the iPhone all day.  To fit a
> larger battery, the hardware involved in battery connections and
> mounting were removed.

Non-removable batteries provide better battery life. This is not
anything anyone, particularly Apple, has attempted to make a secret of.

> Wi-Fi range on both the iPhone and iPod Touch are very limited due to
> an undersized antenna and limited RF power (and possibly limited
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> antennas.  I haven't done any bench testing, beyond ripping apart
> several iPod Touch PDA's to replace the battery.  What a PITA.

In practice, the iPhone's reception is pretty good. I was thinking more
of its large number of on-board sensors (which enable a lot of
interesting new interaction capabilities), its powerful processor and
GPU, its relatively large amount of RAM and flash, and its large
high-resolution screen.

> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
> connector.

Not unless you've figured out how to get one to carry analog video,
audio, and various sorts of control signals, no.

Fortunately, the cable used happens to be the same one Apple has used
with every iPod made in the last half decade or something, so it's
pretty easy to find one. Hell, if you're at a friend's house without a
charger, they probably have one.

> Well, at least they got the earphone jack correct.
>
> I'm not sure if you include mechanical construction in your "better
> hardware specs".  If you've ever tried to replace the battery
> yourself, you'll wonder if it was designed to be repaired.  Probably
> not.

Few tiny consumer electronics devices are. This is a natural consequence
of a) increasing miniaturization and b) the relative decline in cost of
initial manufacturing vs. repair (primarily as a consequence of the
former being easier to automate).

> I've bid on several broken iPod Touch units on eBay (without success).
> Apparently broken displays and water damage are common.

I would be astounded if these weren't the two most common failure modes
for virtually every phone.

[snip]

> Rather than lecture on the subject of merchandising and motivational
> marketing, perhaps I can offer some reading material on why people buy
> and do things.  There's plenty of psychology and magic involved in
> product design.  Any of the old Wilson Bryan Key books on subliminals
> in advertising is a good and entertaining start.  The bottom line is
> that we are motivated by much more than just "productivity".

This whole thing is a strawman, given that absolutely nobody has claimed
everyone buys the iPhone as a productivity device.

Mind you, I run a small business and use mine rather extensively in
conjunction with that. But the lack of a physical keyboard on the iPhone
is a rather dead giveaway that it's an "iPod phone", not a "e-mail
phone".

> >Second, you're completely overlooking user experience.
>
> Nope.  I'm a user and I'm somewhat experienced.  I find the iPod Touch
> and iPhone to be rather clumsy, feature limited, and awkward.

You're welcome to your opinion, but in this instance it puts you in the
extreme minority.

[snip]

> Right.  My XV6700 has all the features I could ever want.
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/xv6700/XV6700.htm>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> buggy.  I'll spare you the specifics.  Three firmware revisions later,
> the phone is officially obsolete, so nothing will be fixed.  

If I'd known I was starting a discussion with someone who got excited
about putting a registry editor(!!!) on this phone, I really probably
wouldn't have bothered.

Your priorities are so far outside of mainstream consumer *or* business
user priorities that you might as well be posting from an alternative
universe.

[snip]

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 07:07 GMT
>> The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
>> but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
>> bandwidth), so it was released with only an EDGE modem.
>
>Source?

Sorry.  I'd rather not post names of people and companies that might
be affected.  However, you can get a hint at what happened by looking
at the FCC report page for the original iPhone (FCCID: BCGA1203) at:
<https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&
RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=268052&fcc_id=%27BCGA1203%27
>
Note the submission dates column.  All the tests are the same date
(03/09/2007) except for one.  The GSM EGPRS report was submitted two
month later.  This is usually an indication that everything passed
except the data modem section.  After repeated attempts and failures,
an EDGE modem was substituted until the problem could be fixed.  The
user manual date is also two months later, which implies that there
were operational changes made resulting from the modem substitution.

>> Rumor has it that the non-removable battery was used because the
>> original battery was too small to run the iPhone all day.  To fit a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Non-removable batteries provide better battery life. This is not
>anything anyone, particularly Apple, has attempted to make a secret of.

Having replace the battery on a iPod Touch 1G and three other iPod
Touch 2G's, I find the benefits of this technological innovation to be
rather lacking.  More specifically, I find it crude, cheap, stupid,
and user unfriendly.  Batteries are the number one failure mechanism
in portable devices and nearly hermetically sealing the battery inside
labels the device as almost throw away.  

Incidentally, the 1G was my first attempt and near failure.  I ignored
the advice on several web sites and YouTube videos and used a metal
screwdriver to pry open the case.  Inside the metal back is a
stainless metal strip, with projections that snap into the aluminum
frame.  I managed to mangle the strip sufficiently that it would not
snap back together.  So, I ordered a replacement back ($16) and found
that the replacement was also difficult to snap back together.  I
could get partial closure, but still had a slight gap.  In
desperation, I decided to apply brute force.  With two pieces of thin
wood on each side, I crunched the case together with considerable
force using a channel lock pliers.  I had visions of broken glass, but
managed to get it snapped back together.  Such primitive methods of
assembly are not my idea of quality construction, reparability, and
technical innovation.

>In practice, the iPhone's reception is pretty good. I was thinking more
>of its large number of on-board sensors (which enable a lot of
>interesting new interaction capabilities), its powerful processor and
>GPU, its relatively large amount of RAM and flash, and its large
>high-resolution screen.

Agreed.  Those are new and innovative.  However, I don't find that any
of those enhance my cellular experience or add much to my
productivity.  Incidentally, that begs the question, it the iPhone a
PDA with a cell phone attached, or a cell phone with a PDA attached?
Yeah, I know it's a matter of perspective, but with the tail wagging
the dog, it becomes important when the tail is more important than the
dog.

>> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
>> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
>> connector.
>
>Not unless you've figured out how to get one to carry analog video,
>audio, and various sorts of control signals, no.

Kinda reminds me of the DB-25 connector for RS-232.  25 pins to do the
job when only 3 to 5 pins are usually used.  Most of those features
are used occasionally.  USB sync and power are used heavily.  Two
connectors would have been better.

>Fortunately, the cable used happens to be the same one Apple has used
>with every iPod made in the last half decade or something, so it's
>pretty easy to find one. Hell, if you're at a friend's house without a
>charger, they probably have one.

I bought 10 of the USB to iPod cables on eBay for about $1.50/ea.
Crude copies of the real Apple cable but functional.  The problem is
that I also bought a few 117VAC to 5V USB connector chargers, which
will not charge either the iPod or a RAZR V3m cell phone.  I'm not
sure if this is a technical innovation, design screwup, or
protectionist modification.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Mobile_Device_Charger_Standards>

>> I've bid on several broken iPod Touch units on eBay (without success).
>> Apparently broken displays and water damage are common.
>
>I would be astounded if these weren't the two most common failure modes
>for virtually every phone.

Nope.  I have access to repair statistics for some brands of cell
phones.  Mechanical case damage is number one.  Number two is
connector damage.  Broken LCD's are common but way down the list.

>This whole thing is a strawman, given that absolutely nobody has claimed
>everyone buys the iPhone as a productivity device.

Yep.  The term used was buying one for "legitimate reasons".  For a
business user, that would be productivity.  However, for a consumer
device, it would be considered an entertainment appliance, which is
not exactly considered productive.

>Mind you, I run a small business and use mine rather extensively in
>conjunction with that. But the lack of a physical keyboard on the iPhone
>is a rather dead giveaway that it's an "iPod phone", not a "e-mail
>phone".

Actually, the lack of a stylus is what separates the types.  I can
"type" quite rapidly and accurately with a stylus.  I do tolerably
well, but much slower and less accurate using the iPhone.  With a
built in keyboard (Treo 650 and Palm Pro), typing is painful and
difficult.  I should probably try one of these:
<http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php>
but suspect it's nothing more than a small finger on a stick.  Yummm.

>> Nope.  I'm a user and I'm somewhat experienced.  I find the iPod Touch
>> and iPhone to be rather clumsy, feature limited, and awkward.
>
>You're welcome to your opinion, but in this instance it puts you in the
>extreme minority.

True.  The greatest good for the largest number, which tends to
produce mediocre products for the GUM (great unwashed masses).  My
expectations are both higher and different.  Frankly, I'm disappointed
with the iPod Touch and iPhone.  I bought one expecting something
closer to my expectations and preconceived prejudices.  It's not bad,
but it's certainly not perfect.

>If I'd known I was starting a discussion with someone who got excited
>about putting a registry editor(!!!) on this phone, I really probably
>wouldn't have bothered.

I don't see the problem.  Hacking the Windoze Mobile registry is no
big deal if you know what you're doing.  Is there some requirement
that the iPhone needs to be totally stock?  I haven't done a jailbreak
on my iPod Touch yet, but probably will eventually.

I didn't write that web page to get "excited", especially about a
registry editor.  I wrote it to help others that have the same phone.
It seems the Verizon disowned the phone on arrival.  They would only
support the very first original buggy firmware version and refused to
even recognize the existence of two subsequent firmware releases.
Requiring a registry editor to tweak the sound settings is rather
disgusting and certainly not recommended or exciting.  What's nice is
that such a registry editor exists that allows me to make such
changes.  

>Your priorities are so far outside of mainstream consumer *or* business
>user priorities that you might as well be posting from an alternative
>universe.

Really?  I thought that Apple products were the preferred platform for
hackers and fanatics.  If I wasn't buried in PC's, I would probably
buy a MacBook and run Unix from the bash shell prompt.  I almost
expected the same from the iPhone.  However, these are my idea of
entertainment, not productivity.  I just want using and maintaining
the iPhone or iPod Touch to be easier to use, less clumsy, less error
prone, and easier to maintain (battery replacement).  There's nothing
hackerish in those requirements.  

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 07:43 GMT
> >> The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
> >> but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> user manual date is also two months later, which implies that there
> were operational changes made resulting from the modem substitution.

except that apple announced to the world in january 2007 that the first
iphone would be edge only, two months *before* the first fcc
submission.

> >Non-removable batteries provide better battery life. This is not
> >anything anyone, particularly Apple, has attempted to make a secret of.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in portable devices and nearly hermetically sealing the battery inside
> labels the device as almost throw away.  

you said that according to the repair data you have for some cell
phones, mechanical case damage is number one, followed by connector
damage.  with a sealed battery, neither will be an issue.  plus, most
cellphones get replaced every couple of years anyway.

> >> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
> >> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> are used occasionally.  USB sync and power are used heavily.  Two
> connectors would have been better.

remote and audio/video out are also used quite frequently, particularly
in car docks where both charging and integrating into the car audio
system is nothing more than popping it into the dock.  the same applies
for home docks and home stereos. two connectors would be nowhere near
as easy to connect and remove the ipod/iphone.

> >Fortunately, the cable used happens to be the same one Apple has used
> >with every iPod made in the last half decade or something, so it's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> sure if this is a technical innovation, design screwup, or
> protectionist modification.

<http://tzywen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=696>
Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 17:03 GMT
>> >> The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
>> >> but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>> user manual date is also two months later, which implies that there
>> were operational changes made resulting from the modem substitution.

>except that apple announced to the world in january 2007 that the first
>iphone would be edge only, two months *before* the first fcc
>submission.

Hmmm.... you're right.  I stand corrected:
<http://www.macworld.com/article/54769/2007/01/iphone.html>
"Jobs noted 3G capabilities will come in the future."
However, if that were true, then Apple was still dealing with
certifications problems in May, one month before the official release
date.  That's actually fairly normal.  I'll check with my source for
some more detail.

>you said that according to the repair data you have for some cell
>phones, mechanical case damage is number one, followed by connector
>damage.  with a sealed battery, neither will be an issue.  plus, most
>cellphones get replaced every couple of years anyway.

Average life for a cell phone is about 18 months.  PDA phones tend to
last a little longer.  

I don't consider the sealed case to be a solution to the mechanical
damage problem.  At best, it delays the problem until the battery dies
or is weak enough to require replacement.  By then, the 1 year
warranty has expired and the customer is left with a potentially
expensive repair.  Apple will replace the battery for $86 plus $30 for
a loaner:
<http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/battery/>
Replacement batteries and case opener tools are available on eBay for
about $8 (including shipping).  Apple considers the battery defective
when it has dropped below 50% capacity:
<http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com>

Q: Why didn't Apple make the iPhone battery easily user-accessible?
<http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/#24>

>remote and audio/video out are also used quite frequently, particularly
>in car docks where both charging and integrating into the car audio
>system is nothing more than popping it into the dock.  the same applies
>for home docks and home stereos. two connectors would be nowhere near
>as easy to connect and remove the ipod/iphone.

Ok, I'll concede that a single connector is more convenient,
especially if it's standardized across the product line.  However, I
don't consider it technically superior and would prefer separate
connectors for separate functions, as found on many cell phones,
digital cameras, and computahs.  If the connectors were all in line
across the base of the phone, it would have the same effect as one big
connector, and still allow for a more common battery charger
connector.  

Note that the GSMA has standardized on the Micro-USB connector for
charging mobile phones:
<http://www.gsmworld.com/newsroom/press-releases/2009/2548.htm>
Apple is not a member, but AT&T is.  Incidentally, I have two power
strips crammed with 6 battery charges at home, and a similar
derangement in the office.  There are 3 chargers floating around the
car.  It sure would be nice to have everything charged by a single
common charger.  That's what I call technically superior.

>> I bought 10 of the USB to iPod cables on eBay for about $1.50/ea.
>> Crude copies of the real Apple cable but functional. The problem is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
><http://tzywen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=696>

Thanks.  I just tried it with my iPod Touch and cheapo Chinese AC to
USB power supply.  2.5V on both pins using four 47K resistors.  It
starts to charge, then quits after about 5 seconds.  My RAZR V3m also
won't charge.  I'll play with the resistor values later and try a
different power source.  I also don't consider requiring voltage on
the data lines of a USB battery charger to be technically superior.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 17:47 GMT
> Average life for a cell phone is about 18 months.  PDA phones tend to
> last a little longer.  

and the battery should definitely last 18 months.

> I don't consider the sealed case to be a solution to the mechanical
> damage problem.  At best, it delays the problem until the battery dies
> or is weak enough to require replacement.  By then, the 1 year
> warranty has expired and the customer is left with a potentially
> expensive repair.  Apple will replace the battery for $86 plus $30 for
> a loaner:

third party companies can replace it for less.  compare that to the
price of a new battery for a typical cellphone.  people end up getting
a new phone instead of replacing the battery.

> Ok, I'll concede that a single connector is more convenient,
> especially if it's standardized across the product line.  However, I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> connector, and still allow for a more common battery charger
> connector.

then you have alignment issues.  a single connector solves all that,
and besides, the dock connecter was designed long before they thought
of the iphone or had any idea how successful the ipod was going to be.
it appeared just 18 months after the first ipod shipped.

> Note that the GSMA has standardized on the Micro-USB connector for
> charging mobile phones:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> car.  It sure would be nice to have everything charged by a single
> common charger.  That's what I call technically superior.

they are now
<http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE55S1XZ20090629>

> Thanks.  I just tried it with my iPod Touch and cheapo Chinese AC to
> USB power supply.  2.5V on both pins using four 47K resistors.  It
> starts to charge, then quits after about 5 seconds.  My RAZR V3m also
> won't charge.  I'll play with the resistor values later and try a
> different power source.  I also don't consider requiring voltage on
> the data lines of a USB battery charger to be technically superior.

from that article, the chip they use requires it, and presumably that
chip is in other devices too.
Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 17:57 GMT
>>> I bought 10 of the USB to iPod cables on eBay for about $1.50/ea.
>>> Crude copies of the real Apple cable but functional. The problem is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>><http://tzywen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=696>

>Thanks.  I just tried it with my iPod Touch and cheapo Chinese AC to
>USB power supply.  2.5V on both pins using four 47K resistors.  It
>starts to charge, then quits after about 5 seconds.  My RAZR V3m also
>won't charge.  I'll play with the resistor values later and try a
>different power source.  I also don't consider requiring voltage on
>the data lines of a USB battery charger to be technically superior.

Duh.  Brain damage.  I fired up USBView.exe (Microsoft USB Viewer) and
found that the rated current consumption of my iPod Touch is 500ma
maximum.  The cheapo China power supply will only source 330ma.  
Oops.  Time to find a bigger USB power supply.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
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Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Steve Fenwick - 29 Jun 2009 20:32 GMT
> >>> I bought 10 of the USB to iPod cables on eBay for about $1.50/ea.
> >>> Crude copies of the real Apple cable but functional. The problem is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> maximum.  The cheapo China power supply will only source 330ma.  
> Oops.  Time to find a bigger USB power supply.

And it will probably charge faster if you give it up to 1A--that's the
output rating on the cube adapter that's shipped with new iPhones (since
last year's models).

Steve

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steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Mark Crispin - 29 Jun 2009 18:50 GMT
> Average life for a cell phone is about 18 months.  PDA phones tend to
> last a little longer.

The majority of iPhones only last one year, because fanboys have to
replace their toys with the latest model each year.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 16:03 GMT
> >> The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
> >> but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> user manual date is also two months later, which implies that there
> were operational changes made resulting from the modem substitution.

I don't see any evidence there strong enough to cause me to disbelieve
Apple's claims that they didn't initially roll out 3G because 1) battery
life was worse (which was true even with the more efficient chipsets
they shipped a year later) and 2) AT&T's 3G network build-out wasn't all
that far along.

> >> Rumor has it that the non-removable battery was used because the
> >> original battery was too small to run the iPhone all day.  To fit a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> in portable devices and nearly hermetically sealing the battery inside
> labels the device as almost throw away.  

That report you linked to in the other post actually shows battery
problems as the second *least* common problem type, and shows battery
problems to be substantially less common on the iPhone than on the other
leading smart phones it looked at, implying that there may be a
significant reliability gain from an internal battery as well.

[snip]

> >In practice, the iPhone's reception is pretty good. I was thinking more
> >of its large number of on-board sensors (which enable a lot of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the dog, it becomes important when the tail is more important than the
> dog.

The iPhone is a mobile communications device, "communications" going far
beyond voice calling these days. In point of fact, as used by typical
consumers, computers are primarily communications devices and,
increasingly, vice versa.

> >> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
> >> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> are used occasionally.  USB sync and power are used heavily.  Two
> connectors would have been better.

I don't see the justification for having two separate connectors that
both need to be hooked up for full functionality. I suppose if you had
both the fully-functional dock connector *and* a mini-USB port that only
charged/synced there would be no particular disadvantage to that, but it
doesn't seem like it's all that beneficial either.

[snip]

> >> I've bid on several broken iPod Touch units on eBay (without success).
> >> Apparently broken displays and water damage are common.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> phones.  Mechanical case damage is number one.  Number two is
> connector damage.  Broken LCD's are common but way down the list.

You can't really mix flip phones with brick phones here, I think. Flip
phones are probably far more likely to break at the hinge, while the
screen, folded inside, is relatively protected. In contrast, brick
phones have exposed screens and no mechanical parts larger than a button
that can fail. (And the iPhone doesn't even many of those buttons.)

[snip]

> >You're welcome to your opinion, but in this instance it puts you in the
> >extreme minority.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> closer to my expectations and preconceived prejudices.  It's not bad,
> but it's certainly not perfect.

It's not just the "great unwashed masses" who are impressed by what
Apple is doing usability-wise with the iPhone.

> >If I'd known I was starting a discussion with someone who got excited
> >about putting a registry editor(!!!) on this phone, I really probably
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that the iPhone needs to be totally stock?  I haven't done a jailbreak
> on my iPod Touch yet, but probably will eventually.

The point is more that no mainstream user would ever have the slightest
interest at all in doing this, and someone who does is clearly not a
mainstream user. Now, there are some people who, despite being well
outside of the mainstream in terms of their computer skills (and use)
nonetheless understand the priorities of mainstream users very well
(these are the people who give us advanced new devices and software that
appeal to mainstream users, largely), but they're fairly thin on the
ground around here.

[snip]

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 17:21 GMT
> I don't see the justification for having two separate connectors that
> both need to be hooked up for full functionality. I suppose if you had
> both the fully-functional dock connector *and* a mini-USB port that only
> charged/synced there would be no particular disadvantage to that, but it
> doesn't seem like it's all that beneficial either.

Hmm... Apple has evidently found some solution to this problem that they
like, if they're on-board with this:

http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/29/apple-to-adopt-micro-usb-connectors-f
or-iphone-charging-in-europe/

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 29 Jun 2009 18:22 GMT
> Hmm... Apple has evidently found some solution to this problem that they
> like, if they're on-board with this:
>  
> http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/29/apple-to-adopt-micro-usb-connectors-f
> or-iphone-charging-in-europe/


Only because the EU is threatening to make it mandatory on all phones sold
there.

While I certainly welcome standard connectors, I prefer it to be by
marketplace consensus rather than governmental decree.  Apple has very good
reasons to use the iPod dock connector on the iPhone (and if/when they add
micro-USB it'll be in addition to, rather than instead of.)
Dennis Ferguson - 29 Jun 2009 17:39 GMT
>>> The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
>>> but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> user manual date is also two months later, which implies that there
> were operational changes made resulting from the modem substitution.

I don't think I believe that.  First, the "modem" ASIC is way more than
just a modem; it includes a whole pile of other functionality, including
hardware multimedia assists.  The only quick redesign possible would
have been to replace a 3G chip with a functionally equivalent 2G chip,
i.e. from the same manufacturer, Infineon (if they'd used another
manufacturer for 3G they would have replaced it with a 2G chipset
from that manufaturer instead).  Yet Infineon had no 3G chipset
available at the time.  They only annouced the future availability
of their 3G chipset in February, 2007, and weren't even shipping
samples until the fall of 2007, more than a year late compared to
their early development NDA estimates as I understand it.  There
is no way anyone, even Apple, could have considered shipping a volume
product in Q2 2007 using an Infineon 3G chipset since Infineon didn't
have one.

Second, removing 3G from the phone would have involved more than
just swapping the baseband chip.  3G WCDMA can't use the same power
amplifiers as GSM because of the much higher linearity requirements,
and at the current state of the art only single-band WCDMA power
amplifier chips exist so the 3G iPhone would have required 3 of them
(in addition to the single-chip 4-band GSM power amplifier in there
in either case).  Those 3 chips are fairly large, too, since they run
hot.  If they'd removed 3G from the phone in a hurry I would expect
to see the empty board space where those 3 chips used to be, yet the
2G iPhone is just packed even without them.

Since the 2G iPhone uses a chipset from a manufacturer that had no
3G version at the time, and since the inside of the 2G phone doesn't
have the extra space that 3G would have required, I doubt that this
phone was ever anything other than a 2G phone.  I hence prefer the
simpler explanation for the FCC submission dates, that they just
had some trouble passing the EDGE emission tests (this is the worst
case, with the highest switching rates, in a 2G GSM phone, after all)
and needed extra time to fix that.

Dennis Ferguson
Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 18:31 GMT
>>>> The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
>>>> but couldn't pass some FCC specs (occupied bandwidth or emission
>>>> bandwidth), so it was released with only an EDGE modem.
(...)
>Since the 2G iPhone uses a chipset from a manufacturer that had no
>3G version at the time, and since the inside of the 2G phone doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Dennis Ferguson

I'm wrong and will concede the point.  I'm afraid that I'm guilty of
recycling (or starting) a rumor.  I'll double check with my source,
but it appears that you're correct.  I wasn't aware that the 3G chips
were not available at the time.

At the risk of compounding my misinformation... there were rumors that
the iPhone was initially offered to Verizon, who rejected it because
of Apples's requirements to essentially control distribution and
pricing.  That would have required a CDMA phone with an EV-DO (or
1xRTT) modem.  Switching the iPhone from CDMA to GSM would have been a
major project and probably impossible in the short time following the
collapse of negotiations.  However, looking at the guts on the FCC ID
pages, it appears that RF section is quite modular
<https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=766954
&native_or_pdf=pdf
>
which suggests that there may have been a CDMA version.  There's no
evidence that such a CDMA version was type certified.  Does this sound
credible, or I will I need to apologize again?

Incidentally, thanks for mentioning that the chips were from Infineon.
Apple likes to remove the chip identifiers in their FCC ID photos,
making identification difficult.

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Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 19:26 GMT
>I'm wrong and will concede the point.  I'm afraid that I'm guilty of
>recycling (or starting) a rumor.  I'll double check with my source,
>but it appears that you're correct.  I wasn't aware that the 3G chips
>were not available at the time.

3G chips were available at that time.

>At the risk of compounding my misinformation... there were rumors that
>the iPhone was initially offered to Verizon, who rejected it because
>of Apples's requirements to essentially control distribution and
>pricing.  [SNIP BS rumor]

You've done exactly that.

>That would have required a CDMA phone with an EV-DO (or
>1xRTT) modem.  Switching the iPhone from CDMA to GSM would have been a
>major project and probably impossible in the short time following the
>collapse of negotiations.  

I respectfully disagree.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 20:09 GMT
> At the risk of compounding my misinformation... there were rumors that
> the iPhone was initially offered to Verizon, who rejected it because
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> collapse of negotiations.  However, looking at the guts on the FCC ID
> pages, it appears that RF section is quite modular

they could have made it with a different radio but for whatever reason,
they didn't.  the verizon rumour is just that, a rumour.  anyone who
was at the meetings won't talk about what went on and everyone else is
guessing.  they probably decided on gsm early on.

> which suggests that there may have been a CDMA version.  There's no
> evidence that such a CDMA version was type certified.  Does this sound
> credible, or I will I need to apologize again?

they probably looked at cdma too, but that's not what made it out the
door.  not everything does make it out the door.
Dennis Ferguson - 30 Jun 2009 18:02 GMT
> At the risk of compounding my misinformation... there were rumors that
> the iPhone was initially offered to Verizon, who rejected it because
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> evidence that such a CDMA version was type certified.  Does this sound
> credible, or I will I need to apologize again?

I don't think there is anything to apologize for.  Since only Apple
would know what Apple was thinking at the time, and no on from Apple
has spilled those beans, all anyone can do is guess.

My guess would be no, however, for a couple of reasons.  First, the
radio chipsets in phones now do a whole lot more than just "radio", and
if you include useful functionality in a hardware-limited platform
it tends to get used because it is there for free.  Since different
manufacturers implement different "extra" functionality in different
ways this means that there can be a significant cost involved if you
need to change to a different manufacturer's products.  Because vendor
lock-in is hard to avoid I think that if Apple thought they would be
doing a CDMA model at any point in the forseeable future they would have
simply picked a radio vendor with a product line which includes CDMA,
along with GSM, products (like TI or Qualcomm) at the outset.  That
they instead picked Infineon, which has no CDMA products and shows no
interest in CDMA, as their radio chipset vendor, suggests to me that
CDMA was never a priority (Infineon's advantage, that their 2G
implementation is quite power-efficient, doesn't strike me as important
enough to change this consideration, especially since 2G is only
a sideline on current phones and Infineon's 3G isn't much better than
anyone else's).

Second, Apple is kind of unique among phone manufacturers in that,
so far, they've only manufactured one model of phone at a time with
only very minor variations, a memory stuff option and 2 case colors
(well, they're now selling two models, but only by retaining one of
last year's variations; I wouldn't be surprised if they cut that out
once they've used up the parts on hand, though).  I believe that the
purchasing and manufacturing efficiency they get by building just one
thing is a contributor to the fact that Apple gets rather stellar
margins from the iPhone at the same time RIM has been complaining
about the effect the competition has had on their margins, and a
manufacturing powerhouse like Nokia has explicitly declined to
compete with Apple on price.  I hence think that building just one
thing is probably a conscious strategy, but if this is the strategy
then they couldn't have built a CDMA thing; over 50% of Apple's iPhone
sales in the most recent quarter were outside the USA and Canada,
and most of that business couldn't have been done if the one thing
was a CDMA phone.  If you want to manufacture just one phone and
sell it everywhere it needs to be GSM/UMTS.

Finally, there have been lots of published guesses about what Apple
thought early on, but the most compelling one to me has been what
Verizon's CEO told the WSJ, quoted here

   http://www.fiercebroadbandwireless.com/story/verizon-iphone-and-lte-good-match/2
009-04-17


and, in particular,

   He said Apple never seriously considered making a CDMA version of
   the phone because of its limited global reach as compared with GSM.

Note that you'll find different people from Verizon spinning this
differently, and I wouldn't necessarily expect people at Verizon
to know exactly what Apple was thinking in any event, but the above
quote shows enough self-disinterest for me to believe it is honestly
what he thinks, and he is in a position to know as much as anyone
else at Verizon (and it matches my own biases!).

In any case, my guess would be that Apple never considered doing
a CDMA phone, but that's only a guess and not necessarily better
than anyone else's guess.  Only Apple knows for sure.

Dennis Ferguson
nospam - 30 Jun 2009 19:22 GMT
> In any case, my guess would be that Apple never considered doing
> a CDMA phone, but that's only a guess and not necessarily better
> than anyone else's guess.  Only Apple knows for sure.

i'm sure they investigated doing both gsm and cdma, but as you say,
only apple knows why they chose what they did.
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 17:42 GMT
>Non-removable batteries provide better battery life. This is not
>anything anyone, particularly Apple, has attempted to make a secret of.

What non-removable batteries actually provide is more efficient use of
space, making for a slightly larger battery in the same phone form
factor, which can provide slightly more capacity.  The difference is
relatively small, and the downside is pretty big, making it a poor
tradeoff for the consumer, only a good tradeoff for the manufacturer.

For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
-- just swap batteries, and you're good to go.

>> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
>> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
>> connector.
>
>Not unless you've figured out how to get one to carry analog video,
>audio, and various sorts of control signals, no.

USB can be made to carry pretty much anything digital, and claiming
otherwise directly contradicts claims of superior Apple engineering.

>> I'm not sure if you include mechanical construction in your "better
>> hardware specs".  If you've ever tried to replace the battery
>> yourself, you'll wonder if it was designed to be repaired.  Probably
>> not.
>
>Few tiny consumer electronics devices are.

Really?  What other such relatively expensive devices do you know of
where battery replacement is as difficult?

>This is a natural consequence
>of a) increasing miniaturization and b) the relative decline in cost of
>initial manufacturing vs. repair (primarily as a consequence of the
>former being easier to automate).

It's actually a natural consequence of planned obsolescence.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 18:18 GMT
> >Non-removable batteries provide better battery life. This is not
> >anything anyone, particularly Apple, has attempted to make a secret of.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
> -- just swap batteries, and you're good to go.

While I fully expect them to be vastly over-represented in wireless
groups on Usenet, the truth is only a very small fraction of people
actually own and use multiple cell phone batteries.

> >> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
> >> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> USB can be made to carry pretty much anything digital, and claiming
> otherwise directly contradicts claims of superior Apple engineering.

Last time I checked, analog video and analog audio weren't digital. It's
true that video and audio could be output digitally, but this would mean
more sophisticated electronics would need to be put into accessory
devices. And the RIAA/MPAA would probably freak out if you didn't
include some sort of encryption, which makes things even more
complicated.

It will be interesting to see how Apple approaches this problem now that
they've signed on with the micro-USB EU charging standard. My guess is
they won't just abandon the dock connector, since there are quite a few
third-party iPhone accessories that use it and new SDK features in
iPhone OS 3.0 are probably going to result in a substantial number of
new dock connector accessories as well.

> >> I'm not sure if you include mechanical construction in your "better
> >> hardware specs".  If you've ever tried to replace the battery
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Really?  What other such relatively expensive devices do you know of
> where battery replacement is as difficult?

So they have one user-replaceable part instead of zero. That doesn't
exactly make them "designed to be repaired".

> >This is a natural consequence of a) increasing miniaturization and
> >b) the relative decline in cost of initial manufacturing vs. repair
> >(primarily as a consequence of the former being easier to automate).
>
> It's actually a natural consequence of planned obsolescence.

There isn't anything especially deliberate about the obsolescence of
modern electronics devices. Initial manufacturing is highly automatable
because precisely the same physical steps are followed each time, which
is something robots are very good at. Repair is not highly automatable
because it typically still requires some level of human judgement to
determine what needs to be done, and not every repair follows the same
physical steps. Human labor is expensive, especially skilled human labor.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 19:29 GMT
>> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
>> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>groups on Usenet, the truth is only a very small fraction of people
>actually own and use multiple cell phone batteries.

It's a significant number, and by no means the only advantage.
Arguing otherwise is just plain silly, yet another Apple Excuse.

>> USB can be made to carry pretty much anything digital, and claiming
>> otherwise directly contradicts claims of superior Apple engineering.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>include some sort of encryption, which makes things even more
>complicated.

All audio and video in handsets are in digital format, and most are
unprotected.

>> Really?  What other such relatively expensive devices do you know of
>> where battery replacement is as difficult?
>
>So they have one user-replaceable part instead of zero. That doesn't
>exactly make them "designed to be repaired".

I didn't think so.  Thanks for the gracious concession.

>> It's actually a natural consequence of planned obsolescence.
>
>There isn't anything especially deliberate about the obsolescence of
>modern electronics devices. ...

I respectfully disagree.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 20:09 GMT
> >> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
> >> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It's a significant number, and by no means the only advantage.
> Arguing otherwise is just plain silly, yet another Apple Excuse.

it's actually very small.  i know of *nobody* who carries a second cell
phone battery, let alone owns a second cell phone battery.  battery
life, particularly on non-smartphones lasts *days* in typical use.

after a couple years, they replace the phone, often for less than what
a second battery costs.  the last time i had a second cell phone
battery was 15 years ago with analog phones and today i get more talk
time than i did standby back then.

as for laptops, npd says less than 5% buy a second battery:
<http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20090624/new-mac-laptops-use-batteries-seal
ed-for-power/>

 Hardly anybody buys extra batteries. Research firm NPD estimates that
 fewer than 5% of consumers buy a spare. So, a small trend has begun
 in the industry: More electronic products are being designed with
 their rechargeable batteries sealed inside. For instance, Dell¹s
 (DELL) new high-end laptop, the Adamo, has a sealed battery, as does
 the excellent Flip pocket video camera.

so why aren't people slamming dell or flip?  picking on just apple is
'yet another excuse'.

> >> USB can be made to carry pretty much anything digital, and claiming
> >> otherwise directly contradicts claims of superior Apple engineering.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> All audio and video in handsets are in digital format, and most are
> unprotected.

except that the dock does more than just audio and video and the docks
are much simpler because the output is analog.
Jeff Liebermann - 30 Jun 2009 08:47 GMT
>it's actually very small.  i know of *nobody* who carries a second cell
>phone battery, let alone owns a second cell phone battery.  battery
>life, particularly on non-smartphones lasts *days* in typical use.

I do and so do most of my friends and accomplices.  I have at least 2
batteries for most of my assorted phones.  The LIPO batteries hold
their charge for many weeks, so I just throw a charged battery into
the car and use it when I run the battery into the ground.  That does
happen, especially when I forget to charge the battery the night
before.  Incidentally, buying spare batteries on eBay for friends has
become a serious time burner.  No sooner do my friends get a new
phone, I get the honor of buying them a spare battery, and spare
chargers.  We all have chargers in the car, at home, and in the
office.

This was one of my office "desks" a few years ago:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/office/slides/radio-mess.html>

>after a couple years, they replace the phone, often for less than what
>a second battery costs.

The average lifetime of a cell phone is about 18 months.  I agree on
the cost.  Subsidized phones can even be free (ignoring the applicable
taxes and hidden charges).

>the last time i had a second cell phone
>battery was 15 years ago with analog phones and today i get more talk
>time than i did standby back then.

I don't know how it works with GSM, but when I'm out of range of any
cell tower, my phone starts to hunt for a connection by cranking up
the power output to max, and almost continuously announcing its
presence.  Battery life under such conditions is about 4 hours.  We
have a few dead spots in the area.  I visited some friends who live in
one of these holes.  When I arrived, I had about a 75% charged
battery.  When I left a few hours later, it was nearly dead.  When we
had the fiber optic cable cut in April, Verizon stupidly shut down
it's cellular network.  The phone showed no service at any location.
My battery was fully charged by about 8AM.  Verizon pulled the plug at
about 11AM.  I had a dead battery by 4 or 5AM.  Others had similar
experiences.

>as for laptops, npd says less than 5% buy a second battery:
><http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20090624/new-mac-laptops-use-batteries-sealed-for-power/>

True.  There's a rather large gap between a $10 eBay cell phone
battery, and a $100 to $150 laptop battery.  Manufacturers could
probably get away with non-replaceable batteries on laptops because
typical lifetime of a laptop (about 3 years) is about the same as the
lifetime of the battery.  Almost every laptop I've bought used on eBay
or Craig's List has had a dead or nearly dead battery.  Charge the
battery 3 times a week, and with an optimistic lifetime of 500 hours,
the battery will be toast in about 3 years.  However, unlike the cell
phone, replacing the battery is a major expense that constitutes a
major percentage of the cost of a replacement laptop.  Might as well
invest in a new laptop instead.  That makes plenty of sense when the
replacement costs $100 to $150, but a new Netbook is only $325.

>  Hardly anybody buys extra batteries. Research firm NPD estimates that
>  fewer than 5% of consumers buy a spare. So, a small trend has begun
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>so why aren't people slamming dell or flip?  picking on just apple is
>'yet another excuse'.

Well, Apple has sold 45 million iPhones.  Dell has sold perhaps a few
thousand high end laptops.  I think the size of the customer base may
have something to do with the frequency of complaints.  (Bigger
companies make better targets).

I don't know much about the Flip cameras.  One web site claims they've
sold 2 million cameras.
<http://camcorders.consumerelectronicsnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=777288>
Probably close enough.  I tried the Flip Mino, hated it, and managed
to get store credit when I returned it.  Nobody I know has one or
needs one after they figure out how to do movies on their digital
camera.  Perhaps Flip's plan really was to make it a throw away
camera?  Anyway, there's plenty wrong with the Flip that complaining
about the non-replaceable battery is below the noise level.  They also
haven't been around long enough for battery replacement to be a
problem.

Flip has also changed their mind about the non-replaceable battery.
The Flip Mino had the sealed NiMH batteries.  However, the new Flip
UltraHD apparently uses either alkaline AA batteries or rechargeable
AA cells.

>except that the dock does more than just audio and video and the docks
>are much simpler because the output is analog.

Perhaps a compromise.  I'll take an adapter that connects between the
Apple proprietary 30 pin connector, and something standard.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

nospam - 30 Jun 2009 12:41 GMT
> >except that the dock does more than just audio and video and the docks
> >are much simpler because the output is analog.
>
> Perhaps a compromise.  I'll take an adapter that connects between the
> Apple proprietary 30 pin connector, and something standard.

<http://www.sendstation.com/us/products/pocketdock/lineout-usb.html>
Jeff Liebermann - 30 Jun 2009 16:20 GMT
>> >except that the dock does more than just audio and video and the docks
>> >are much simpler because the output is analog.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
><http://www.sendstation.com/us/products/pocketdock/lineout-usb.html>

Close, but it's missing the standard (micro USB) battery charger
connector.  Instead, it has a full size USB connector.

While I'm adding features, a 2.5mm (defacto) standard headset
connector would be nice for phone calls, instead of the 3.5mm earphone
connector.
Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Todd Allcock - 30 Jun 2009 16:55 GMT
> While I'm adding features, a 2.5mm (defacto) standard headset
> connector would be nice for phone calls, instead of the 3.5mm earphone
> connector.

Oh, Lord, no!  After dealing with every odd-ball 2.5mm jack adapter to use
regular (stereo) headphones on at least 4 different PDAs and PDA phones,
3.5mm is the only audio output jack we need!  I'll use bluetooth for
telephone calls, but leave me a standard headphone jack for music!
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 03:03 GMT
>> While I'm adding features, a 2.5mm (defacto) standard headset
>> connector would be nice for phone calls, instead of the 3.5mm earphone
>> connector.

>Oh, Lord, no!  

Sorry.  There is no guidance on cell phone design in the Old
Testament, New Testament, Koran, etc.  Devine intervention is still
prossible, but has not been reliable for about 2000 years.

>After dealing with every odd-ball 2.5mm jack adapter to use
>regular (stereo) headphones on at least 4 different PDAs and PDA phones,
>3.5mm is the only audio output jack we need!  I'll use bluetooth for
>telephone calls, but leave me a standard headphone jack for music!

We can't win.  3 pin (connections) and 2.5mm is the cell phone
standard for a mono headset and mic.  If I'm going to use the iPhone
as a cell phone, and the iPod Touch as a Skype phone, then they should
use fairly standard accessories.  The iPod Touch does not have
BlueGoof, so a wired headset and mic are necessary.  I can buy 2.5mm
headsets for a zillion vendors.  I couldn't find an "iPhone
compatible" headset.

Some of my 2-way radios (i.e. Yaesu) also use a 3.5mm jack, and like
the iPhone have 4 contacts instead of 3 for the Mic+PTT, left and
right audio.  However, the 4th contact is not used for left or right
audio.  It's a data connection for programming the radio.  Mix almost
identical headsets between a 2-way radio and an iPhone and nothing
works.  

I haven't done any extensive digging, but it appears that the iPhone
is the only cell phone with a 3.5mm connector.  Even my Verizon XV6700
has a 3 ping 2.5mm connector (and will play MP3's in stereo).  

Actually, it probably doesn't really matter which one is selected as
long as it's compatible with everything manufactured since the stone
age and that adapters are available.  Pick one (2.5 versus 3.5 with 3
or 4 connections) and blunder toward harmonized nervana.

Incidentally, the selection of jack size has some bearing on my
previous question of whether the iPhone is a PDA computah with a cell
phone attached, or a cell phone with a computah hung on.  Since
computers only use 3.5mm jacks, the answer is now obvious.  It's a
computah with a cell phone added.

Hmmm.... I wonder if the MEMS accelerometer has a high enough
frequency response to be used as a microphone?
nospam - 01 Jul 2009 04:16 GMT
> We can't win.  3 pin (connections) and 2.5mm is the cell phone
> standard for a mono headset and mic.  If I'm going to use the iPhone
> as a cell phone, and the iPod Touch as a Skype phone, then they should
> use fairly standard accessories.  

they do, and there are countless ipod/iphone accessories.

> The iPod Touch does not have
> BlueGoof, so a wired headset and mic are necessary.  

the 2nd gen ipod touch has bluetooth.

> I can buy 2.5mm
> headsets for a zillion vendors.  I couldn't find an "iPhone
> compatible" headset.

you didn't look too hard. there's plenty.

> Some of my 2-way radios (i.e. Yaesu) also use a 3.5mm jack, and like
> the iPhone have 4 contacts instead of 3 for the Mic+PTT, left and
> right audio.  However, the 4th contact is not used for left or right
> audio.  It's a data connection for programming the radio.  Mix almost
> identical headsets between a 2-way radio and an iPhone and nothing
> works.

the 4th pin is non-standard. the ipod video uses it for video output
while the iphone uses it for voice and play/pause.

> I haven't done any extensive digging, but it appears that the iPhone
> is the only cell phone with a 3.5mm connector.  Even my Verizon XV6700
> has a 3 ping 2.5mm connector (and will play MP3's in stereo).  

it's also the only cellphone that's also an ipod.
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 05:31 GMT
>> The iPod Touch does not have
>> BlueGoof, so a wired headset and mic are necessary.  
>
>the 2nd gen ipod touch has bluetooth.

Huh?  I have a 2nd generation iPod Touch.  The chip is there but it
was for NIKE+.  The 3.0 update unlocked the BT functionality:
<http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/17/2g-ipod-touch-to-have-bluetooth-capability-un
locked-by-iphone-os/
>
<http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/10/debunk-the-ipod-touch-bluetooth-chip-is-reall
y-the-nike-receiv/
>
I somehow missed it under Settings -> General -> BT
Thanks.

>> I can buy 2.5mm
>> headsets for a zillion vendors.  I couldn't find an "iPhone
>> compatible" headset.
>
>you didn't look too hard. there's plenty.

I looked.  I want an over the head type of BT headset with a cord as
commonly found as a cell phone accessory.  These usually come with a
2.5mm 3 conductor plug.  For phones like the RAZR, there are adapters.
All I could find that was iPhone specific are some ear bud and
microphone combinations.

>the 4th pin is non-standard. the ipod video uses it for video output
>while the iphone uses it for voice and play/pause.

Ugh.  It's worse than I thought.
Standards are a good thing.  Every company should have one.

>> I haven't done any extensive digging, but it appears that the iPhone
>> is the only cell phone with a 3.5mm connector.  Even my Verizon XV6700
>> has a 3 ping 2.5mm connector (and will play MP3's in stereo).  
>
>it's also the only cellphone that's also an ipod.

Huh?  I don't understand.
DevilsPGD - 01 Jul 2009 09:30 GMT
>>the 4th pin is non-standard. the ipod video uses it for video output
>>while the iphone uses it for voice and play/pause.
>
>Ugh.  It's worse than I thought.
>Standards are a good thing.  Every company should have one.

Well then it's your lucky day, there are two standards for the fourth
pin here, as defined by the device's capabilities.

For Video output capable devices the fourth pin is used for video, and
cables are compatible between some digital cameras (rare), Creative and
Apple players, and one other brand that I don't recall (a friend was
visiting and used my Creative cable to connect his media player to my
TV.)

For audio w/microphone the fourth pin is also cross compatible, in that
you can use the same 3.5mm headset with a Blackberry, iPhone, and N95.

To my knowledge it's not an officially designed standard like the 2.5mm
and 3.5mm headset jacks are, but the manufacturers are being cross
compatible which means it's only a matter of time (and desire) before a
formal standard is published.
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 04:21 GMT
>I haven't done any extensive digging, but it appears that the iPhone
>is the only cell phone with a 3.5mm connector.  Even my Verizon XV6700
>has a 3 ping 2.5mm connector (and will play MP3's in stereo).  

I lied.  The Blackberry Curve 83xx series of PDAphones also use a
3.5mm connector with identical pinout as the iPhone.  Two wrongs don't
make a right, but can make a defacto industry standard.

2.5 to 3.5mm adapter for the iPhone:
<http://www.amazon.com/Stereo-Audio-Adaptor-Apple-iPhone/dp/B000YE54F8>

Out of service for a while:
<http://www.macworld.com/article/141446/doomresurrection.html>
ZnU - 01 Jul 2009 04:45 GMT
> >I haven't done any extensive digging, but it appears that the iPhone
> >is the only cell phone with a 3.5mm connector.  Even my Verizon XV6700
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 3.5mm connector with identical pinout as the iPhone.  Two wrongs don't
> make a right, but can make a defacto industry standard.

The headset is something you usually carry around with the device,
whereas external audio devices you'll commonly encounter "in the wild".
So it makes more sense to use something compatible with the latter
rather than the former, since the user actually has control over the
former and can just pick something that works.

One thing that will also work in a pinch is that if you plug headphones
that don't have a mic into an iPhone, it will feed voice out to them but
pick up audio through the speakerphone mic on the handset. This lets you
go hands free with any handy pair of headphones.

> 2.5 to 3.5mm adapter for the iPhone:
> <http://www.amazon.com/Stereo-Audio-Adaptor-Apple-iPhone/dp/B000YE54F8>
>
> Out of service for a while:
> <http://www.macworld.com/article/141446/doomresurrection.html>

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 01 Jul 2009 04:29 GMT
> >> While I'm adding features, a 2.5mm (defacto) standard headset
> >> connector would be nice for phone calls, instead of the 3.5mm earphone
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Testament, New Testament, Koran, etc.  Devine intervention is still
> prossible, but has not been reliable for about 2000 years.

Check Revelations again- I'm pretty sure HTC's extended USB connector is
referred to as the "Jack of the Beast..."


> >After dealing with every odd-ball 2.5mm jack adapter to use
> >regular (stereo) headphones on at least 4 different PDAs and PDA phones,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> as a cell phone, and the iPod Touch as a Skype phone, then they should
> use fairly standard accessories.

To a point, yes.  However, when features leapfrog the status quo, that
needs to reconsidered.  I'm all for standardization, but a monaural headset
on an "iPod phone" would be kind of silly.

A new combo mic/headphone combo standard that's "backwards compatible" with
standard headphones was long overdue.

 
>  The iPod Touch does not have
> BlueGoof, so a wired headset and mic are necessary.  I can buy 2.5mm
> headsets for a zillion vendors.  I couldn't find an "iPhone
> compatible" headset.

I find something like this:
<http://www.javoedge.com/reflexeshop/productCatalog/getProduct.do?poid=1968&
pbmId=14908>,
preferable, since it allows you to use the headphones of your choice.

> I haven't done any extensive digging, but it appears that the iPhone
> is the only cell phone with a 3.5mm connector.

Sony's Xperia X1 does as well.  It's a GSM WM6 phone witha WVGA screen and
slide-out keyboard.

> Even my Verizon XV6700
> has a 3 ping 2.5mm connector (and will play MP3's in stereo).  

As did my Wizard.  Newer HTCs use the Jack of the Beast- an 11-pin mini-USB
plug also compatible with standard mini-USB plugs for charge/sync.  The
extra pins handle stereo audio, mic, video (on compatible models), and
remote control functions.


> Actually, it probably doesn't really matter which one is selected as
> long as it's compatible with everything manufactured since the stone
> age and that adapters are available.  Pick one (2.5 versus 3.5 with 3
> or 4 connections) and blunder toward harmonized nervana.

I think 3-pin/2.5 for mono phones and 4-pin/3.5 for stereo would be ideal.


> Incidentally, the selection of jack size has some bearing on my
> previous question of whether the iPhone is a PDA computah with a cell
> phone attached, or a cell phone with a computah hung on.  Since
> computers only use 3.5mm jacks, the answer is now obvious.  It's a
> computah with a cell phone added.

I choose "neither."  From jack "evidence" alone, the iPhone is obviously an
iPod first, and computer/phone second/third.  Even "computer/PDA-first"
phones like your 6700 don't use 3.5mm jacks!
DevilsPGD - 01 Jul 2009 07:17 GMT
>I haven't done any extensive digging, but it appears that the iPhone
>is the only cell phone with a 3.5mm connector.

For degrees of "only cell phone" that excludes the Nokia N95, and
various recent Blackberry models, MotoROKR, and a few others.
John Navas - 30 Jun 2009 16:59 GMT
>>the last time i had a second cell phone
>>battery was 15 years ago with analog phones and today i get more talk
>>time than i did standby back then.

>I don't know how it works with GSM, but when I'm out of range of any
>cell tower, my phone starts to hunt for a connection by cranking up
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>about 11AM.  I had a dead battery by 4 or 5AM.  Others had similar
>experiences.

That's pretty much how it works with GSM as well.  If I don't turn off
my cell phone to conserve the battery when sailing offshore, the battery
is drained much faster than when I'm in a good signal area.

>>as for laptops, npd says less than 5% buy a second battery:
>><http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20090624/new-mac-laptops-use-batteries-sealed-for-power/>
>
>True.  ...

For consumers, but not for businesses -- many business users have second
batteries.

>Manufacturers could
>probably get away with non-replaceable batteries on laptops because
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>invest in a new laptop instead.  That makes plenty of sense when the
>replacement costs $100 to $150, but a new Netbook is only $325.

Except that laptop batteries can be had for only $35-80, depending on
how carefully you shop.  ThinkPad T41 non-OEM battery for $36 shipped:
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370219290776>
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270404950724>
OEM battery:
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130315618932>

Lifetime of a frequently used battery is more like two years, much less
than the typical lifetime of the computer.  My own ThinkPad T41 is going
strong, and it's now on its 2nd battery, which is down to 24 Wh versus
design capacity of 48 Wh, or only about 50%, after 353 cycles over 26
months.  While still usable, it's definitely ready for replacement.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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ZnU - 30 Jun 2009 18:20 GMT
[snip]

> Except that laptop batteries can be had for only $35-80, depending on
> how carefully you shop.  ThinkPad T41 non-OEM battery for $36 shipped:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> design capacity of 48 Wh, or only about 50%, after 353 cycles over 26
> months.  While still usable, it's definitely ready for replacement.

Shame Apple did think to do something about that before building in
batteries.

Oh, wait. They did. The MacBook Pro batteries are rated for 1000 charge
cycles.

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John Navas - 30 Jun 2009 18:37 GMT
>[snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Oh, wait. They did. The MacBook Pro batteries are rated for 1000 charge
>cycles.

Rating is one thing; battery life another.  With every cycle battery
life decreases, and will be dramatically lower than when new long before
the rated cycles.  You may be willing to live with the difference, but
I'm not.  "There is no magic."(c)

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ZnU - 30 Jun 2009 18:54 GMT
> >[snip]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> the rated cycles.  You may be willing to live with the difference, but
> I'm not.

1000 cycles takes you down to ~80%:
http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html

"The built-in battery in the new 13-, 15-, and 17-inch MacBook Pro is
designed to retain up to 80% of its original capacity at up to 1000 full
charge and discharge cycles."

Considering initial battery life is 6-8 hours, that's still pretty good.

And yes, I do see the "up to" weasel words there, but given how much
people enjoy suing Apple for things like this, I doubt they'd risk being
too weaselly.

> "There is no magic."(c)

No, but any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
it.

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Todd Allcock - 30 Jun 2009 19:13 GMT
>> "There is no magic."(c)
>
> No, but any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
> it.

;)
nospam - 30 Jun 2009 19:22 GMT
> > >> Lifetime of a frequently used battery is more like two years, much less
> > >> than the typical lifetime of the computer.  My own ThinkPad T41 is going
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > the rated cycles.  You may be willing to live with the difference, but
> > I'm not.

your thinkpad battery has the same limitation.

> 1000 cycles takes you down to ~80%:
> http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Considering initial battery life is 6-8 hours, that's still pretty good.

over 8 hours:
<http://anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3580&p=4>
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 01:04 GMT
>> > Rating is one thing; battery life another.  With every cycle battery
>> > life decreases, and will be dramatically lower than when new long before
>> > the rated cycles.  You may be willing to live with the difference, but
>> > I'm not.
>
>your thinkpad battery has the same limitation.

Yep, which is why it will soon be replaced with a fresh battery,
for the second time within the life of the computer.

Suggesting it actually makes sense for the consumer to have a
non-removable battery is just plain silly.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 01 Jul 2009 04:16 GMT
> >> > Rating is one thing; battery life another.  With every cycle battery
> >> > life decreases, and will be dramatically lower than when new long before
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Suggesting it actually makes sense for the consumer to have a
> non-removable battery is just plain silly.

it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced once
every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
much longer than that.
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 04:56 GMT
>> >> > Rating is one thing; battery life another.  With every cycle battery
>> >> > life decreases, and will be dramatically lower than when new long before
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
>much longer than that.

Sorry, but I haven't drunk the Apple Kool-Aid like you have, and find
that quite unconvincing.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 01 Jul 2009 05:06 GMT
> >it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced once
> >every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
> >much longer than that.
>
> Sorry, but I haven't drunk the Apple Kool-Aid like you have, and find
> that quite unconvincing.

i have not drunk the kool aid and your insistence shows just how weak
your argument is.  i'm very critical of apple where it's deserved. this
ain't one of them.  

swapping a laptop battery is something that happens once, perhaps even
twice, in the product's lifetime and needing a screwdriver is not a big
deal.  the dell adamo does the same thing, so why no bashing for them?

it's very clear where your bias is.
DevilsPGD - 01 Jul 2009 07:17 GMT
>it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced once
>every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
>much longer than that.

If Apple is sure that it will last longer, then surely their warranty
covers battery life for 24-36 months?
ZnU - 01 Jul 2009 15:19 GMT
> >it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced once
> >every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
> >much longer than that.
>
> If Apple is sure that it will last longer, then surely their warranty
> covers battery life for 24-36 months?

Not meaningful. Very few companies provide warranties that are intended
to last for the entire expected useful life of the product.

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John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 15:44 GMT
>> >it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced once
>> >every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Not meaningful. Very few companies provide warranties that are intended
>to last for the entire expected useful life of the product.

You're being disingenuous again -- battery life becomes an issue when a
vendor makes it non-removable by the user, and if life isn't an issue,
then the warranty should reflect that, especially since Apple has a poor
track record when it comes to battery issues, as I'm sure you know.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 01 Jul 2009 18:57 GMT
> >Not meaningful. Very few companies provide warranties that are intended
> >to last for the entire expected useful life of the product.
>
> You're being disingenuous again -- battery life becomes an issue when a
> vendor makes it non-removable by the user,

although it's a little more effort than snapping a couple of clips,
it's not hard for the user to replace it, or it can be done while you
wait an an apple store.

> and if life isn't an issue,
> then the warranty should reflect that, especially since Apple has a poor
> track record when it comes to battery issues, as I'm sure you know.

cite?
ZnU - 02 Jul 2009 14:40 GMT
> >> >it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced
> >> >once every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> a vendor makes it non-removable by the user, and if life isn't an
> issue, then the warranty should reflect that,

Whether or not the battery (or any other part) is easily
user-replaceable typically has no relationship to whether it's covered
by the manufacturer's warranty.

You're creating an arbitrary and ad-hoc standard specifically to attack
Apple for not living up to it, one of the more common tricks we see in
CSMA.

> especially since Apple has a poor track record when it comes to
> battery issues, as I'm sure you know.

I'm sure I know you could manage to interpret things that way. Such an
interpretation doesn't seem to have much relationship to reality.
Indeed, for the last few years, Apple has given battery life estimates
for devices substantially more inline with real-world results than the
estimates many other vendors provide.

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DevilsPGD - 01 Jul 2009 18:18 GMT
>> >it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced once
>> >every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Not meaningful. Very few companies provide warranties that are intended
>to last for the entire expected useful life of the product.

While I don't disagree in principle, when a company makes a product more
difficult to service, then includes a part that is known in the design
phase to fail within a time period, that's a game-changer.
ZnU - 02 Jul 2009 14:50 GMT
> >> >it's removable, just takes a screwdriver. even if it is replaced once
> >> >every 2-3 years, it's a minor issue.  apple states that it should last
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> difficult to service, then includes a part that is known in the design
> phase to fail within a time period, that's a game-changer.

That doesn't really make any sense. Apple provides a battery replacement
service, and it's reasonably priced as compared with what Apple has
historically charged for replacement batteries.

Putting a five year warranty (or whatever) on the internal battery
wouldn't make anything less "difficult" for people, it would merely give
some people a free battery, that under either the current arrangement or
in an alternative world where Apple didn't have built-in batteries,
they'd have had to pay for. I see absolutely no reason why Apple should
be obligated to buy people free replacement batteries merely because
replacing one requires same-day service at an Apple store (where you
very well might have gone to buy the battery anyway) rather than being
something you can do at home.

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John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 01:02 GMT
>> Rating is one thing; battery life another.  With every cycle battery
>> life decreases, and will be dramatically lower than when new long before
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>designed to retain up to 80% of its original capacity at up to 1000 full
>charge and discharge cycles."

Color me unimpressed.  But then I haven't drunk the Apple Kool-Aid.  ;)
And I have real world data from state-of-the-art batteries, versus
marketing claims.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 01 Jul 2009 04:16 GMT
> >1000 cycles takes you down to ~80%:
> >http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> And I have real world data from state-of-the-art batteries, versus
> marketing claims.

in other words, no real world data from the new batteries.
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 04:56 GMT
>> >1000 cycles takes you down to ~80%:
>> >http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>in other words, no real world data from the new batteries.

Yep.  Vaporware.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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ZnU - 01 Jul 2009 05:15 GMT
> >> >1000 cycles takes you down to ~80%:
> >> >http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Yep.  Vaporware.

A 1.5 pound chunk of lithium that can power your computer is about as
close to the opposite of "vapor" as anything I can think of.

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nospam - 01 Jul 2009 05:27 GMT
> > >> Color me unimpressed.  But then I haven't drunk the Apple Kool-Aid.  ;)
> > >> And I have real world data from state-of-the-art batteries, versus
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> A 1.5 pound chunk of lithium that can power your computer is about as
> close to the opposite of "vapor" as anything I can think of.

what's become quite apparent over the last week or so is that many of
his arguments are vapor.
ZnU - 01 Jul 2009 05:13 GMT
> >> Rating is one thing; battery life another.  With every cycle battery
> >> life decreases, and will be dramatically lower than when new long before
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> And I have real world data from state-of-the-art batteries, versus
> marketing claims.

Look, this being the Internet, for all I know you're the Battery King of
the Universe. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if
you're not, it's just possible Apple has access to some stuff you don't.

Apple is kind of nuts about stuff like this, and their premium pricing
allows them to source parts most vendors wouldn't even look at. iSuppli
commented in their breakdown of the most recent iPod shuffle that the
thing had capacitors in it that were "half the size of what had
previously been considered the smallest device of their type". This is a
basic, trivial little part where Apple was going out and sourcing stuff
that basically nobody else was using because... well, mostly because
they're obsessive.

If there's some way to get twice as many charge cycles for ten times the
price, but that comes down to "just" four times the price if you order 5
million of them... that sounds like the kind of part that mostly isn't
going to be widely available in the market, until someone like Apple
comes along and orders the 5 million. (And most vendors won't even use
it then.)

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-hh - 01 Jul 2009 12:52 GMT
> If there's some way to get twice as many charge cycles for ten times the
> price, but that comes down to "just" four times the price if you order 5
> million of them... that sounds like the kind of part that mostly isn't
> going to be widely available in the market, until someone like Apple
> comes along and orders the 5 million. (And most vendors won't even use
> it then.)

More accurately, if the onboard electronics for an intelligent charger
costs $20, whereas a crude one only costs $5, you can bet your last
dollar that proverbially all of the HPs and Dells and Lenovos out
there have cut that $15 out of their laptops.

For another example, take a look at the AC adaptor for the notebook
computer:

if its a heavy brick, it is a cheap low tech iron core wound
transformer, whereas if its small & light, its a solid state switching
power supply.  The solid state version costs more, but it avoids
adding a pound to the total system weight of your 6lb notebook.

-hh
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 15:53 GMT
>> If there's some way to get twice as many charge cycles for ten times the
>> price, but that comes down to "just" four times the price if you order 5
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>dollar that proverbially all of the HPs and Dells and Lenovos out
>there have cut that $15 out of their laptops.

On the contrary -- Lenovo ThinkPads have long since featured
state-of-the-art power and battery management, with multi-stage charging
and sophisticated battery monitoring.  And the benchmark is Sony, both a
notebook computer manufacturer and a world leader in battery technology.

>For another example, take a look at the AC adaptor for the notebook
>computer:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>power supply.  The solid state version costs more, but it avoids
>adding a pound to the total system weight of your 6lb notebook.

Has no bearing on battery issues, and you obviously haven't any real
experience with Lenovo products; e.g.,
<http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.w
orkflow:item.detail?GroupID=38&Code=41N8460&current-category-id=4364BD0F20B94413
B5AD6E684D2848E9
>
or <http://preview.tinyurl.com/3a2tvw>

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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-hh - 01 Jul 2009 17:47 GMT
> >> If there's some way to get twice as many charge cycles for ten times the
> >> price, but that comes down to "just" four times the price if you order 5
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and sophisticated battery monitoring.  And the benchmark is Sony, both a
> notebook computer manufacturer and a world leader in battery technology.

What is *today* considered State-of-the-Art battery management is now
defined as it being done at the per-battery-cell level.

Whose laptops have that, John?
Cite, please.

> >For another example, take a look at the AC adaptor for the notebook
> >computer:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Has no bearing on battery issues...

Actually, its bearing is in providing a clear illustration for how
some laptop manufacturers are "cutting corners"...presumably in an
area where they don't think that the average consumer will notice.
The power tranformer is one and the degree of sophistication of the
battery charger is another example.

> ..., and you obviously haven't any real
> experience with Lenovo products;

Its a conspiracy that I started salting the archives with posts as far
back as 2007 where I specifically mentioned that I have ThinkPad
laptops.

Here's a 2008 example where I even mentioned that I was replacing an
older T41p with a new T61:

<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/
4701e301b9455ce6?hl=en>

Perhaps next time, Mr. Navas will take a moment of his precious time
to do the tiniest bit of research before attempting to sling his ad
hominem insults.

-hh
SMS - 07 Jul 2009 02:05 GMT
> What is *today* considered State-of-the-Art battery management is now
> defined as it being done at the per-battery-cell level.

I did analysis of using that type of battery monitoring system (monitors
up to four individual Li-Ion cells in a pack) for a laptop. It's nice
information to know, but the reality was that a) it didn't prolong the
life of the battery pack, b) to charge each cell individually did not
speed up the charging time by much, c) it added expense to the charger,
the laptop, and the replacement battery packs, d) did nothing to
increase operating time per charge. It does give you slightly more
advance notice that a pack is losing capacity, but the goal of the
project was to find ways to extend operating time for a given size pack.
Putting four temp sensors in the pack, and adding more contacts for
charging and monitoring, and adding expense to the charging circuitry is
something that the military might want to do, but it's not going to
happen on most, if any, laptops. OTOH, you'll definitely see more
expense put into electric vehicle packs where fast charging time is a
feature that can be marketed, and where you will have 70-80 Li-Ion cells
in series and dividing them into smaller groups of for charging will
speed charging time.

> Whose laptops have that, John?
> Cite, please.

Boy are you asking the wrong person for cites!

> Actually, its bearing is in providing a clear illustration for how
> some laptop manufacturers are "cutting corners"...presumably in an
> area where they don't think that the average consumer will notice.
> The power tranformer is one and the degree of sophistication of the
> battery charger is another example.

There are no notebook computers that use a non-switching power brick. It
would be absolutely enormous to have a 65W-130W non-switching supply.
You still see lower power non-switching adapters for some low-power, low
cost, consumer electronic devices.

There are some more size-efficient switchers, but there are trade-offs,
especially thermal trade-offs.

What Apple did with their magnetic latch charger is pretty nice. Some
small kitchen appliances, i.e. my Zojurishi water boiler use that
system. It prolongs the life of the connectors.

> Perhaps next time, Mr. Navas will take a moment of his precious time
> to do the tiniest bit of research before attempting to sling his ad
> hominem insults.

This has never occurred in the past, and is unlikely to occur in the future.
John Navas - 07 Jul 2009 06:11 GMT
>> Whose laptops have that, John?
>> Cite, please.
>
>Boy are you asking the wrong person for cites!

Indeed -- he should be asking you.

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-hh - 07 Jul 2009 12:24 GMT
> > What is *today* considered State-of-the-Art battery management is
> > now defined as it being done at the per-battery-cell level.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> in series and dividing them into smaller groups of for charging will
> speed charging time.

Agree on nearly all of your points:  there are gains, but for
applications where there aren't that many cells and that cost is a
major factor, the gains aren't necessarily big enough to chase after.
FWIW, the applications where I've seen it was highly interested in
maintaining a higher % of original capacity after a cell(s) started to
degrade, as this  extended the overall battery pack life (IIRC, the
pack was designed to output ~80kW for 10-15 minutes...not quite your
typical laptop).

> > Whose laptops have that, John?
> > Cite, please.
>
> Boy are you asking the wrong person for cites!

I know, which is precisely why Mr. John Navas came up empty (again),
despite his claim of:

 "Lenovo ThinkPads have long since featured
 state-of-the-art power and battery management, with
 multi-stage charging and sophisticated battery monitoring."

(cite: <http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/
f0e1e4f485826760?hl=en> )

> > Perhaps next time, Mr. Navas will take a moment of his precious time
> > to do the tiniest bit of research before attempting to sling his ad
> > hominem insults.
>
> This has never occurred in the past, and is unlikely to occur in the future.

I know.   Documenting the hypocrisy and bad behavior of John Navas
merely reminds Navas that he is again insisting on being a pompous
fool, and even though such arrogant and dishonest fools are unlikely
to change, a better man can and would change.

With change in John unlikely, what's more likely then is that it will
merely serve to be a legacy for his children and grandchildren... who
will invariably eventually be interested enough to do a family
genealogy project... to find, and to learn just how unhinged John was,
back in the early 21st century.  Hopefully, they'll be successful in
their life, despite how despicable John Navas has tainted their
bloodline with his dishonesty and the like...however, the point is
that any success that they may have will not be due to him, but
*despite* him.  Even if they never confront him with the question
('Grandpa John - why were you such a flaming a.shole?'), they'll still
know it to be.

-hh
SMS - 07 Jul 2009 19:39 GMT
> Agree on nearly all of your points:  there are gains, but for
> applications where there aren't that many cells and that cost is a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> pack was designed to output ~80kW for 10-15 minutes...not quite your
> typical laptop).

>   "Lenovo ThinkPads have long since featured
>   state-of-the-art power and battery management, with
>   multi-stage charging and sophisticated battery monitoring."

Having worked directly with both IBM and Legend (Lenovo) on power
management, it's true that they did have state-of-the-art power and
battery management. As did Compaq and Dell and Sony and Toshiba and
others, who all used pretty much the same ASICs from a very few vendors
in the battery packs and notebooks.

There's only so much you can do to reduce power use. You turn off
everything that's not being used, you reduce screen brightness, and you
run the core at as low a speed as possible, trading off performance for
lower power (which can also be counter-productive if tasks take you a
lot longer to complete while the screen and disks are going). What
Transmeta did, monitoring the demands of the application and changing
the processor speed thousands of times per second was clever, but what
killed that was the fact that as geometries shrunk, the biggest user of
core power was leakage, which didn't vary with MHz by much.

Similarly, on the battery side, you put in charging circuitry that
trades off between battery longevity and charging times, but everyone
has access to the same technology.

> I know.   Documenting the hypocrisy and bad behavior of John Navas

<snip>

There are almost certainly reasons that we don't know that causes the
behavior we see. We should be more sympathetic.
-hh - 07 Jul 2009 20:01 GMT
> Having worked directly with both IBM and Legend (Lenovo) on power
> management, it's true that they did have state-of-the-art power and
> battery management. As did Compaq and Dell and Sony and Toshiba and
> others, who all used pretty much the same ASICs from a very few vendors
> in the battery packs and notebooks.

One might consider it to be sematic hair-splitting, but if techniques
such as per-cell weren't being used because for that application they
didn't offer an adequate bang-for-the-buck gain, then it can be argued
that they weren't "state of the art", but an applied version which in
some circles is sometimes referred to as "state of the shelf".

The 'shelf' phrasing refers to what is available 'off the shelf', and
alludes to the trade-offs that are made from factors other than merely
technological goodness that have defined the marketplace's
availability.

-hh
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 03:49 GMT
>OEM battery:
><http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130315618932>
$90 including shipping.  Looks like prices have dropped and I failed
to notice.  Thanks.

>Lifetime of a frequently used battery is more like two years, much less
>than the typical lifetime of the computer.

It depends on how it's used and how it's charged.  What I find
digusting is that the lifetime of a laptop where the battery gets run
down and recharged is about the same as a laptop that spends its
entire life connected to a battery charger.  My guess is that there's
a timer built into the battery that destroys it after a set time.

>My own ThinkPad T41 is going
>strong, and it's now on its 2nd battery, which is down to 24 Wh versus
>design capacity of 48 Wh, or only about 50%, after 353 cycles over 26
>months.  While still usable, it's definitely ready for replacement.

Nice.  I've noticed an interesting phenomenon among some laptop users.
They will run the laptop on battery as long as the battery lasts.
However, when the battery stops taking a charge, instead of replacing
the battery, they just keep running it on the charger until the
battery is totally dead.  I have a box of used semi-dead batteries
I've saved just so I can test some of these laptops dragged in by
customers.  I can see the logic (defrayed expenses).  With a cell
phone, the battery seems to be replaced long before it's totally dead.
My guess(tm) is at 50% capacity or higher.

Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
loses all its memory and settings.  Well, maybe some of the phone
settings are saved somewhere or on the SIM card, but in general, the
phone is cleared.  Not so with a laptop, where the setting are in
NVRAM and the data is on a hard disk or solid state disk.  So, it's
much easier to make a removable battery system on a laptop, than on a
cell phone.  The phone would require TWO batteries.  One large battery
to run everything, and one small battery to prevent total amnesia.
Sealing the battery inside the case combines the function of these two
batteries into the main battery, thus simplifying matters.

Waiting for a fuel cell battery for my cell phone, PDA, laptop, etc.
<http://www.ultracellpower.com>
SMS - 01 Jul 2009 03:51 GMT
>> OEM battery:
>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130315618932>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> entire life connected to a battery charger.  My guess is that there's
> a timer built into the battery that destroys it after a set time.

The cells inside a notebook battery pack are pretty standard. You can
change the cells and keep the controller. There are lots of instructions
on-line for the popular battery packs.
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 04:42 GMT
>The cells inside a notebook battery pack are pretty standard. You can
>change the cells and keep the controller. There are lots of instructions
>on-line for the popular battery packs.

That's exactly what I do for my older laptops.  Finding new battery
packs for old 386 thru PIII laptops is often tough.  (Note: Old slow
laptops are required to run speed sensitive Motorola radio programming
software and DOS apps that scribble directly to the i/o ports).  When
the battery dies, I rip it apart, replace the cells, and charge
happily after.  However, I do this only for myself and maybe some
friends.  It's too risky for paying and sometimes clueless customers.
It's also not cost effective.  The process takes about an hour per
battery pack.  If I can't save the equivalent of my hourly billing
rate, it's not worth doing.   Therefore, I only do battery transplants
if I can't obtain a suitable replacement.  

Some charge controllers in the battery keep a record of charge cycles
and offer a capacity estimate.  When replacing cells, these counters
should be reset.  I haven't figured out how to do this resulting in
some rather insane battery statistics.  

Other systems include a method of detecting aftermarket (counterfeit
and not approved) batteries, which sometimes includes a feature that
detects replacement cells.  I haven't run into this myself, but have
read account of others that have.  It's the result of the few
exploding LiPo cell phone and laptop batteries and the subsequent
litigation.  For example, Sony laptops have a Windoze program called
ISBMgr.exe which will disable charging and do strange things if it
detects a non-Sony battery.  Unlike the Sony music CD copy protection,
it's not a root kit.  However, it is buggy and sometimes burns 99% of
CPU resources, making it equally disgusting.
<http://www.laptoppartsexpert.com/ft-46-batteries.html>

Incidentally, I use an ultrasonic dental descaler to crack the glued
or solvent welded plastic case seams.  Works fairly well, but if I
touch the electronics, they're instantly destroyed from broken wire
bonds.
SMS - 01 Jul 2009 06:59 GMT
>> The cells inside a notebook battery pack are pretty standard. You can
>> change the cells and keep the controller. There are lots of instructions
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> laptops are required to run speed sensitive Motorola radio programming
> software and DOS apps that scribble directly to the i/o ports).

Yeah, I keep an old Dell with serial and parallel ports for this reason.
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 15:55 GMT
>>> The cells inside a notebook battery pack are pretty standard. You can
>>> change the cells and keep the controller. There are lots of instructions
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Yeah, I keep an old Dell with serial and parallel ports for this reason.

How silly.  Inexpensive USB adapters are readily available.  I use a USB
to serial adapter (Prolific PL-2303) to sync my GPS units.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

msg - 01 Jul 2009 16:06 GMT
>>>> The cells inside a notebook battery pack are pretty standard. You can
>>>> change the cells and keep the controller. There are lots of instructions
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> How silly.  Inexpensive USB adapters are readily available.  I use a USB
> to serial adapter (Prolific PL-2303) to sync my GPS units.

I have been scrupulously avoiding this needlessly cross-posted thread,
but reading this I had to reply.  Mr. Navas, did you not read the
quotation you cited in your last post?  Speed sensitive programs
in the embedded field are common and require a native serial port
and a cpu and mainboard that conforms to the assumptions of the
original programmer.

A modern laptop with a USB adapter _does not_ cut it for these
applications.

Michael
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 16:17 GMT
>> How silly.  Inexpensive USB adapters are readily available.  I use a USB
>> to serial adapter (Prolific PL-2303) to sync my GPS units.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>A modern laptop with a USB adapter _does not_ cut it for these
>applications.

While there are cheap, crappy, problematic USB to serial adapters, there
are also good ones that _do_ cut it for any reasonably well-written
application, like my Prolific PL-2303, which is why I specially listed
the part.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 17:14 GMT
>>>> The cells inside a notebook battery pack are pretty standard. You can
>>>> change the cells and keep the controller. There are lots of instructions
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>>Yeah, I keep an old Dell with serial and parallel ports for this reason.

>How silly.  Inexpensive USB adapters are readily available.  I use a USB
>to serial adapter (Prolific PL-2303) to sync my GPS units.

Sorry, but such adapters have been tried many times, by many
individuals, and failed to function.  The problem is not the hardware
or drivers.  It's the ancient and badly written Motorola programming
software.  The old radios are still useful and unlike computers, have
a very long useful life.  There are 25 year old radios still in
service.  However, the programming software for these was written on
ancient hardware, which is no longer practical to operate.  For
example, the software for programming a Motorola Syntor X9000 will not
run on anything faster than a 386dx33 and will only talk to a "real"
serial port (8250 chip).  Another aspect of the problem is that these
radios do not use the pins of the RS-232 connector for RS-232 data
signals.  Instead, they send a bit stream to one or more of the pins
using a proprietary protocol, to a RIB (radio interface box).  More on
this at:
<http://www.batlabs.com/newbie.html>

There have been attempts too slow down the machine so that the old
software will run such as Mo'Slo:
<http://www.hpaa.com/moslo/>  ($15 to $25)
My experience is erratic.  Sometimes it works, usually it doesn't,
with no discernable pattern.  It has NEVER worked with a USB to any
serial adapter.  The author has been working on the problem since 1990
and has yet to produce a universally workable solution for turning a
Core2Duo gigahertz speed demon into an 4.77MHz XT sludge box.  

Also, running some software, such as for Maxtrac/Radius radios, in a
DOS compatibility box under XP SP3, results in a hang with an
unkillable MSDOS window.  This makes testing rather tedious and
frustrating and often requires a power cycle to revive the PC.

You really should run some of the early Motorola programming software
to experience the totally awful user interface.  Everything is done
with function keys, which change radically on every page.  Secret key
combinations everywhere.  No consistence between software for
different model radios.  It's kinda like the DOS version of MS Word
3.0, only worse.

Of course, more recent radios have much better software that runs on
fairly modern PC's with a less irritating user interface.  However, to
program the old radios, there's nothing better than an old 386 laptop.

Incidentally, I have dumb and marginally related story about old
laptops.  When I was having medical difficulties earlier this year,
and while somewhat drugged, I decided that this would be a perfect
time to clean out the ancient computers and laptops that have
accumulated around the house.  I made a huge pile of eWaste and
dragged the pile to Gray Bears for recycling.  A few days later, I
noticed that my old radio programming laptop, with all the software
inside (not backed up), was missing.  I had recycled it.  To compound
the error, some of the local radio geeks asked for and received all my
old 286/386 laptops and portables, leaving me with nothing usable for
programming old radios.  I'm currently using a Compaq Lunchbox:
<http://oldcomputermuseum.com/compaq_lunchbox.html>
with an orange plasma display.  Very retro but not very portable.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 17:36 GMT
>>How silly.  Inexpensive USB adapters are readily available.  I use a USB
>>to serial adapter (Prolific PL-2303) to sync my GPS units.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>this at:
><http://www.batlabs.com/newbie.html>

I'll buy the first issue but not the second issue -- there are high-end
USB-to-serial adapters that fully emulate the 8250 right down to shadow
registers.  But not much point in even trying one unless the first issue
can be solved.

>There have been attempts too slow down the machine so that the old
>software will run such as Mo'Slo:
><http://www.hpaa.com/moslo/>  ($15 to $25)

As I've pointed out before, such efforts are generally pretty crude, and
I'm pretty sure the problem could be solved if it were sufficiently
important to justify the effort.

>You really should run some of the early Motorola programming software
>to experience the totally awful user interface.  Everything is done
>with function keys, which change radically on every page.  Secret key
>combinations everywhere.  No consistence between software for
>different model radios.  It's kinda like the DOS version of MS Word
>3.0, only worse.

I've had considerable experience with similarly poor software for other
devices (e.g., very old disk drive diagnostics), best characterized as
"lab curiosities".

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 05:14 GMT
>The cells inside a notebook battery pack are pretty standard. You can
>change the cells and keep the controller. There are lots of instructions
>on-line for the popular battery packs.

Internet harvesting, zero experience.  
Have you ever done this?  No.
Do you know anything about controller issues?  No.
Replacing cells is a PITA and usually a bad idea.
Much better to buy a good aftermarket battery.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 01 Jul 2009 04:20 GMT
> Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
> iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
> loses all its memory and settings.  Well, maybe some of the phone
> settings are saved somewhere or on the SIM card, but in general, the
> phone is cleared.

the contents of the iphone is automatically backed up during a sync and
can be easily restored when a new battery is installed, or to an
entirely new device.
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 05:15 GMT
>> Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
>> iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>can be easily restored when a new battery is installed, or to an
>entirely new device.

Sure.  No problem.  I'll just carry a Netbook or MacBook with me
everywhere I may need to use my iPhone heavily and change the battery.
Too bad I can't just plug a commodity USB memory thing or SD card into
the iPhone and back it up without iTunes and a computah.  Maybe backup
to an online server or NAS box via Wi-Fi.  I can do that with my
Windoze Mobile 5 phone using one of several 3rd party apps and MS
ActiveSync.

Most users (including me) don't know the difference between a backup
and a sync.  See:
"Backup the iPhone, Restore from a Backup & Delete a Backup"
<http://www.iphonehacks.com/2008/05/iphone-backups.html>
<http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1766>

I make it a habit of actually testing the backup and restore of my
critical appliances.  I've had some really bad experiences recently
with some disgusting Windoze imaging and backup software.  However,
this is the iPhone, where nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong.
Well, in the process of testing, I managed to wipe all the synced
music and videos from my iPod Touch.  It did save all my purchased
tunes.  However, when I tried to sync to a different computer, I was
informed that the iPod Touch would only sync to one computah.  I can
authorize up to 5 computers, but apparently can sync only to one.  It
then offered me an incomprehensible dialog box which I interpreted as
offering to move the sync computer from the old to the new.  Well, it
did that, but once again wiped all my music, this time taking the
purchased tunes with it.  The good news is that I was able to recover
following the steps I found on some blog.

I then attempted to make a backup, which iTunes reported that it
worked.  The next day, I switched computers again, but this time
iTunes only wiped some of my music.  I have no idea how it decided
what to destroy.  It wasn't the check boxes for syncing as I have
every tune checked on both machines.  I got disgusted, went to the
computer that I had made the backup.  Once again, iTunes wipes a mess
of tunes, but this time, I decided to see what backup and restore
would do.  It restored all of my previous settings, again wiped most
of my non-purchased tunes, and removed a few apps.  The apps were
eventually restored using sync.

I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this backup exercise and test
mess was the result of user ineptitude, failure to RTFM in detail, bad
software design, or karma failure.  I'm undecided at this point.
Switching computers is an obvious culprit, but if I can register 5
machines, why can't I sync and backup to 5 machines?  It works with
ActiveSync.  It can be made to work with Palm HotSync.  But iTunes
requires hacking with a hex editor:
"How to Sync iPhone with multiple computers"
<http://tinyfish.net/2008/07/18/how-to-sync-iphone-with-multiple-computers/>
nospam - 01 Jul 2009 05:26 GMT
> Most users (including me) don't know the difference between a backup
> and a sync.  See:
> "Backup the iPhone, Restore from a Backup & Delete a Backup"
> <http://www.iphonehacks.com/2008/05/iphone-backups.html>
> <http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1766>

 iTunes creates a backup of your iPhone or iPod touch when you sync,
 which you can then use to restore from if you need to return to a
 previously backed up state.

thanks for confirming exactly what i said.

> I make it a habit of actually testing the backup and restore of my
> critical appliances.  I've had some really bad experiences recently
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> informed that the iPod Touch would only sync to one computah.  I can
> authorize up to 5 computers, but apparently can sync only to one.

enable manual sync.
<http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1202>

> It then offered me an incomprehensible dialog box which I interpreted as
> offering to move the sync computer from the old to the new.  Well, it
> did that, but once again wiped all my music, this time taking the
> purchased tunes with it.  The good news is that I was able to recover
> following the steps I found on some blog.

i agree that it's not as obvious how to do it as it could be.

> I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this backup exercise and test
> mess was the result of user ineptitude, failure to RTFM in detail, bad
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "How to Sync iPhone with multiple computers"
> <http://tinyfish.net/2008/07/18/how-to-sync-iphone-with-multiple-computers/>

not necessary for an ipod. the iphone only syncs music from one
computer but can sync contacts, apps, etc. from another computer. i'm
not sure why there's a difference between the two, since they're
basically the same device, one with a phone and one without.
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 05:54 GMT
>> Most users (including me) don't know the difference between a backup
>> and a sync.  See:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>thanks for confirming exactly what i said.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I just wanted to note that backup and sync are
somewhat different.  Also, I'm still not sure I know the exact
difference.

>enable manual sync.
><http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1202>

That article is for the iPod, but probably applies equally to the iPod
Touch and iPhone.  That was one of the first things I did.  During the
installation of iTunes, it asked if I wanted to manually manage my
folders (which is the same as manually manage music and videos).  I
said yes.  

>i agree that it's not as obvious how to do it as it could be.

When asked about the ease of learning Apple versus PC's, my usual
answer is something like "Apple makes easy things easier, but
difficult things impossible".  Over the years, I've found plenty of
exceptions, but in general, methinks it's true.  Backup and Sync
should be a no brainer.  They're not.

>> ...why can't I sync and backup to 5 machines?  It works with
>> ActiveSync.  It can be made to work with Palm HotSync.  But iTunes
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>not sure why there's a difference between the two, since they're
>basically the same device, one with a phone and one without.

Thanks.  That explains some of the weirdness.  I forgot to mention
that syncing the photos, contacts and calendar apparently (not 100%
sure) worked well with two computers.  Syncing apps failed in the
manner mentioned, but that may have been something I did wrong. Tunes,
videos, and podcasts were a big problem.  If it can sync (and backup)
the photos, contacts and calendar to multiple machines, I see no
reason why it can't do the same for the others (unless I'm missing
something here).  I smell a bug or design error here.
nospam - 01 Jul 2009 06:37 GMT
> Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I just wanted to note that backup and sync are
> somewhat different.  Also, I'm still not sure I know the exact
> difference.

they're different but generally occur at the same time.  you can also
cancel the backup and the rest of the sync will complete.

a sync updates the device with new content (music, movies), contacts,
photos, etc.  if you purchased content on the device (apps, music),
that's copied back to the computer, along with new contacts and
bookmarks, etc.

a backup copies all user data on the device to the computer, including
data from the various apps, notes, sms messages, mail configuration
settings, icon positions, game scores, etc.  when you restore, the
backed up data is copied to the device and then all the music and
movies are synced, so it's exactly the way it was just prior to the
backup. this also works across devices, such as an iphone to an ipod
touch or vice versa.

a backup should occur automatically when you sync, or you can invoke it
manually from the contextual menu in device in the list on the left.  a
backup may not occur if it knows nothing has changed, such as if you
decide to add a few more songs right after you synced (and backed up).
usually the backup is very quick, although some apps have huge amounts
of data and that can take time.

you can also look at what was backed up:
<http://supercrazyawesome.com/>
<http://www.i-twin.de/en/>
i've used the former, not the latter.
ZnU - 01 Jul 2009 04:57 GMT
> >OEM battery:
> ><http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130315618932>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> entire life connected to a battery charger.  My guess is that there's
> a timer built into the battery that destroys it after a set time.

Nah, it's the Black Helicopter people. They don't do it on purpose, but
their mind control rays damage lithium ion batteries.

> >My own ThinkPad T41 is going
> >strong, and it's now on its 2nd battery, which is down to 24 Wh versus
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> phone, the battery seems to be replaced long before it's totally dead.
> My guess(tm) is at 50% capacity or higher.

Sure. Cell phones are almost exclusively used while running from the
battery, because even at home or in the office, you still don't want an
object to hold to your head and move around with to be tethered to
anything.

In contrast, many people use their laptops probably 80 or 90% in places
where they can plug in and there's no substantial disadvantage to doing
so. As long as the battery has enough life in it that you can still
sleep the machine when moving it from one desk to another rather than
shutting it down, that's it's more than enough battery life for many
users. (Technically with suspend-to-disk you don't need any battery for
this at all, actually, but it takes longer for the machine to wake up.)

> Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
> iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
> loses all its memory and settings.  Well, maybe some of the phone
> settings are saved somewhere or on the SIM card, but in general, the
> phone is cleared.

This is not true on the iPhone. Everything is stored in the phone's
flash memory, which is nonvolatile.

In fact, I seriously doubt it's true on any modern phone. Why should it
be? Small quantities of flash memory are hilariously cheap these days.

[snip]

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Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 06:03 GMT
>> Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
>> iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>This is not true on the iPhone. Everything is stored in the phone's
>flash memory, which is nonvolatile.

Oops.  I goofed.  I've replaced batteries in several iPod Touch's and
didn't recall exactly if it cleared the memory.  Thinking back, it
didn't and everything was still there after the battery replacement.
At the same time, I was also replacing batteries in a Sony Clie and
Palm something, which did clear the memory.  I also managed to be
swayed by Apple's battery replacement FAQ.  See item #3:
"iPod touch Out-of-Warranty Battery Replacement Program: Frequently
Asked Questions"
<http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/battery/ipodtouch_battery.html>
My appologies.

>In fact, I seriously doubt it's true on any modern phone. Why should it
>be? Small quantities of flash memory are hilariously cheap these days.

Yep.  Thanks for the correction.  However, since the iPhone doesn't
really need a 2nd battery, there's *LESS* of a reason for battery to
be sealed in the package.
DevilsPGD - 01 Jul 2009 10:34 GMT
>Oops.  I goofed.  I've replaced batteries in several iPod Touch's and
>didn't recall exactly if it cleared the memory.  Thinking back, it
>didn't and everything was still there after the battery replacement.
>At the same time, I was also replacing batteries in a Sony Clie and
>Palm something, which did clear the memory.

No Palm in recent memory lost it's memory when it lost power, not the
T|E2, T|X, Lifedrive, Treo 650 or newer, Centro, Palm Pro, etc, all
Flash.

For Windows Mobile the transition happened effective WM5 which requires
flash.

Long gone are the days when you lose anything other then your clock when
your device loses power.
Todd Allcock - 01 Jul 2009 04:58 GMT
> Nice.  I've noticed an interesting phenomenon among some laptop users.
> They will run the laptop on battery as long as the battery lasts.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I've saved just so I can test some of these laptops dragged in by
> customers.  I can see the logic (defrayed expenses).

I think it's also a case of usage scenarios.  Other than perhaps on a flight,
I don't really have a need for a completely battery powered computer, since
anywhere I'm likely to use a computer has AC power nearby- if not, (say a
weekend camping trip) no laptop has a long enough battery life to be very
useful for very long without a recharge anyway.  Many of us simply use our
laptops as portable AC-powered computers, so flat batteries are at best, a
minor inconvenience, particularly since, when they finally die (3 or so
years later), they're outdated enough to no longer be a "primary" computer.
My Dell Inspiron 1100, for exampe, is now 4 years old and the battery
lasts about 20-30 minutes.  It's mostly used by my 5 year-old to play
Shockwave and Flash games on the Disney and NickJr. websites.  I use a
newer laptop.

 With a cell
> phone, the battery seems to be replaced long before it's totally dead.
> My guess(tm) is at 50% capacity or higher.

The difference is that the typical cell phone is rarely used in fixed
position, and needs to be free of an AC cord for its primary usage
scenario.  Consider a wristwatch and an alarm clock.  The former is useless
without a battery, the latter isn't.

> Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
> iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
> loses all its memory and settings.  Well, maybe some of the phone
> settings are saved somewhere or on the SIM card, but in general, the
> phone is cleared.  Not so with a laptop, where the setting are in
> NVRAM and the data is on a hard disk or solid state disk.

Are you sure about the iPhone?  That isn't true of most modern flash-memory
based phones.  Your Verizon XV-6700 has a permant flash memory for storage
(older PDA-phones did not- they used shared, volatile battery-backed RAM
for both storage as well as RAM.)  I presume the iPhone storage is flash,
not RAM.  

> So, it's
> much easier to make a removable battery system on a laptop, than on a
> cell phone.  The phone would require TWO batteries.  One large battery
> to run everything, and one small battery to prevent total amnesia.
> Sealing the battery inside the case combines the function of these two
> batteries into the main battery, thus simplifying matters.

As did some older PDAs.  My old Audiovox used "reserve capacity" in the
main non-removeable battery for backup.  (The device shut down at 10% to
try to keep the RAM alive.)  My Dell had a user-replaceable batery and used
a lithium "coin" cell to keep the RAM alive when the main battery was dea
or removed.

> Waiting for a fuel cell battery for my cell phone, PDA, laptop, etc.
> <http://www.ultracellpower.com>

Pshaw!  Such stone age tech!  I'm waiting to harness the electomagnetic
waves in the air all around us!
<http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/143945>
nospam - 01 Jul 2009 05:09 GMT
> I think it's also a case of usage scenarios.  Other than perhaps on a flight,
> I don't really have a need for a completely battery powered computer, since
> anywhere I'm likely to use a computer has AC power nearby- if not, (say a
> weekend camping trip) no laptop has a long enough battery life to be very
> useful for very long without a recharge anyway.

same here, and on a flight i use a seat power adapter.  personally,
they could remove the battery entirely and i wouldn't notice, other
than the weight savings.
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 08:37 GMT
>Are you sure about the iPhone?

No, I screwed up.  The iPhone uses flash RAM which does not lose its
mind when the battery is removed.  Sorry for the confusion.

>> Waiting for a fuel cell battery for my cell phone, PDA, laptop, etc.
>
>Pshaw!  Such stone age tech!  I'm waiting to harness the electomagnetic
>waves in the air all around us!
><http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/143945>

Yech.  Nokia would do better to have a wind up phone with a key or
crank.  Turn the crank, which runs a small permanent magnet generator,
and charges a super-cap.  (Sorry, I can't hear you.  Crank harder for
more power).  I'm also waiting for the alternative energy cell phone.
Charges on solar cells, has a wind turbine for using wind power, and
will also use methane or natural gas in a fuel cell.  Politically
correct green colored case, of course.  Sigh... it's already here:

"Samsung debuts solar-powered cell phone"
<http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10263836-1.html>
<http://news.cnet.com/samsungs-blue-earth-solar-phone-is-ultra-green/>

"Using air to charge cellphones? IIT-Delhi does it!"
<http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/feb/24iit.htm>

Nuclear cell phone battery?
<http://www.betabatt.com>

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John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 15:59 GMT
>Yech.  Nokia would do better to have a wind up phone with a key or
>crank.  Turn the crank, which runs a small permanent magnet generator,
>and charges a super-cap.  (Sorry, I can't hear you.  Crank harder for
>more power).  ...

Sidewinder Emergency Cell/Mobile Phone Charger
is Wind up, Dynamo, Rotary, Hand Crank or Self Powered
http://members.shaw.ca/sidewindercharger/

Eton Grundig FR400 Emergency Radio with NOAA Weather,
flashlight, and cell phone charger
<http://www.ambientweather.com/etgrfremrawi4.html>

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 17:35 GMT
>>Yech.  Nokia would do better to have a wind up phone with a key or
>>crank.  Turn the crank, which runs a small permanent magnet generator,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>is Wind up, Dynamo, Rotary, Hand Crank or Self Powered
>http://members.shaw.ca/sidewindercharger/

Ooooh, I want one.  $25.... well, maybe not.

I kinda like the wind turbine powered charger idea.  If I need a
battery boost, I just hang the cell phone and turbine out the car
window.
<http://www.gotwind.org/lg_skycharger_recharge_pod.htm>
<http://www.gotwind.org/diy/Orange_Wind_Generator.htm>

Think big (200 watts?)
<http://pedalpowergenerator.com>

>Eton Grundig FR400 Emergency Radio with NOAA Weather,
>flashlight, and cell phone charger
><http://www.ambientweather.com/etgrfremrawi4.html>

Don't need it.  My iPod Touch has an emergency radio app:
<http://www.edgerift.com/products/emergencyradio/>

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John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 17:43 GMT
>>>Yech.  Nokia would do better to have a wind up phone with a key or
>>>crank.  Turn the crank, which runs a small permanent magnet generator,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Ooooh, I want one.  $25.... well, maybe not.

$18.45 at http://21st-century-goods.com/page/21st/PROD/AHPG

About $11 on eBay:
http://shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=crank+Cell+Phone+Charger

>>Eton Grundig FR400 Emergency Radio with NOAA Weather,
>>flashlight, and cell phone charger
>><http://www.ambientweather.com/etgrfremrawi4.html>
>
>Don't need it.  My iPod Touch has an emergency radio app:
><http://www.edgerift.com/products/emergencyradio/>

Which will be useless when the battery dies.  My point with the FR400 is
that the crank generator can also be used to recharge a cell phone.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 05:11 GMT
>>Lifetime of a frequently used battery is more like two years, much less
>>than the typical lifetime of the computer.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>entire life connected to a battery charger.  My guess is that there's
>a timer built into the battery that destroys it after a set time.

Sitting on a charger is death on a battery unless the charger is very
smart.

>Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
>iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
>loses all its memory and settings.  Well, maybe some of the phone
>settings are saved somewhere or on the SIM card, but in general, the
>phone is cleared.  

Poor design.  Inexcusable.

>Not so with a laptop, where the setting are in
>NVRAM and the data is on a hard disk or solid state disk.  So, it's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Sealing the battery inside the case combines the function of these two
>batteries into the main battery, thus simplifying matters.

Poor design.  Inexcusable.

All that's actually needed is flash memory, as used in the great
majority of properly-designed cell phones.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 01 Jul 2009 05:18 GMT
> All that's actually needed is flash memory, as used in the great
> majority of properly-designed cell phones.

good thing the iphone has flash memory then.  plus as i said before,
it's backed up anyway.
Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 08:04 GMT
>Sitting on a charger is death on a battery unless the charger is very
>smart.

That also seems to be the case with UPS batteries.  However, I have a
marine float battery charger (Statpower 10hw Truecharge) that keeps 2
large size 27 gel cells charged.  The batteries are perhaps 8 years
old (or older as I obtained them used) and are almost as good as new.
I have a West Mountain Radio CBA II,
<http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm>
which I use to characterize various batteries.  In general, batteries
that were inside a commodity UPS or laptop, last about 3-5 years at
best.  Meanwhile, batteries that are charged by a proper float
charger, seem to last forever.  Incidentally, I've slow started
characterizing cell phone batteries and am finding wide variations in
capacity, even on new batteries.  

One of my customers accidentally did an interesting battery life
experiment.  They had purchased two new IBM A31 laptops with Li-Ion
batteries.  One laptop lived in the office and was on the charger
24x7.  The other spend half the time in the office, and the other half
on the road, usually running just off battery.  The 24x7 battery
lasted 3 years.  The 50% road/office laptop lasted about 5 years. That
makes zero sense (to me) because the official line is that the number
of charge cycle determines the life of the battery.  The office laptop
never went through the recommended 3 or 4 charge discharge cycles when
it was new.  From then on, never went through any charge cycles.
Meanwhile, the road laptop was run down and recharged perhaps 300
times in its 5 year life.

Lots of guesswork here, but it would seem that the 24x7 battery
charging or the battery charger itself was killing the battery.

>>Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
>>iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Poor design.  Inexcusable.

Nope.  I erred.  The iPhone uses flash ram, which is non-volatile.  My
memory of whether the data was there after I replaced the batteries
was faulty and I was confused with a Sony Clie and Palm something that
did lose its mind during the battery transplant.  However, since the
iPhone does have non-volatile memory, there's less of a savings and
reason to use a non-removable battery.

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Todd Allcock - 01 Jul 2009 08:52 GMT
> One of my customers accidentally did an interesting battery life
> experiment.  They had purchased two new IBM A31 laptops with Li-Ion
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Lots of guesswork here, but it would seem that the 24x7 battery
> charging or the battery charger itself was killing the battery.

Equal guessing on my end, but I blame heat.  My laptops that run all day
(while plugged in) have burned their batteries in 2-3 years.  Those with
light usage (though also plugged in to keep the batteries charged) have
lasted longer.  I suspect that while the cooling fans and fins are designed
to keep the CPU and hard drives cool, keeping the battery cool isn't a
design consideration.
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 16:11 GMT
>> Lots of guesswork here, but it would seem that the 24x7 battery
>> charging or the battery charger itself was killing the battery.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>to keep the CPU and hard drives cool, keeping the battery cool isn't a
>design consideration.

Agreed, although poor charging, and lack of use while fully charged,
were probably factors as well.  For maximum life, li-ion batteries
should be kept cool and only about 50% charged.  Even a hot car can
diminish the life of a li-ion battery.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 18:03 GMT
>>> Lots of guesswork here, but it would seem that the 24x7 battery
>>> charging or the battery charger itself was killing the battery.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>should be kept cool and only about 50% charged.  Even a hot car can
>diminish the life of a li-ion battery.

Zen and the Art of Laptop Battery Maintenance
<http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05/07/beginners_battery_maintenance/>

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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Jeff Liebermann - 01 Jul 2009 18:00 GMT
>> One of my customers accidentally did an interesting battery life
>> experiment.  They had purchased two new IBM A31 laptops with Li-Ion
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>to keep the CPU and hard drives cool, keeping the battery cool isn't a
>design consideration.

Good guess and I agree.  Apparently the life is not determined by the
number of charge cycles:

"How to prolong lithium-based batteries (BU34)"
<http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm>
 "Short battery life in a laptop is mainly caused by heat rather
 than charge / discharge patterns."

 "Keep the lithium-ion battery cool. Avoid a hot car. For prolonged
 storage, keep the battery at a 40% charge level."

The "Simple Guidelines" section at the bottom is rather interesting
and may provide another reason why people don't buy spare laptop
batteries.  Li-Ion batteries also have a shelf life:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life>
 "At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that
 is full most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly
 lose approximately 20% capacity per year. However, a battery
 in a poorly ventilated laptop may be subject to a prolonged
 exposure to much higher temperatures, which will significantly
 shorten its life. Different storage temperatures produce
 different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C
 (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F)."

Ok, that explains what may have happened.  The stationary laptop
battery was losing about 25% of its capacity per year getting cooked
inside the laptop.  The portable battery was not getting cooked as
badly and therefore lasted longer.  The only problem is that the
stationary laptop was only used 8 hours per day, and should not have
been self heating when turned off.  I'll check the "standby"
temperature to be sure.

I'm not sure how this relates to the iPhone, but I suspect carrying
the phone in one's pocket (98F body temperature) will shorten battery
life.

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Steve Fenwick - 02 Jul 2009 03:11 GMT

> Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
> iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
> loses all its memory and settings.  Well, maybe some of the phone
> settings are saved somewhere or on the SIM card, but in general, the
> phone is cleared.

Why should that be? There's a huge (okay, I'm dating myself) chuck of
NAND FLASH in every iPhone. What settings do you expect to find cleared?

Steve

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DevilsPGD - 02 Jul 2009 06:58 GMT
>> Also note that there's a big difference between battery function in an
>> iPhone and a laptop.  Remove the iPhone battery and the phone/PDA
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Why should that be? There's a huge (okay, I'm dating myself) chuck of
>NAND FLASH in every iPhone. What settings do you expect to find cleared?

The clock, although most phones get this from the network.

Oddly the iPhone doesn't seem to, if you put the iPhone on a blocked
data plan without wifi it doesn't seem to update the time, so I'd hazard
a guess that it's using NTP from Apple's servers, although I've never
bothered to packet sniff to find out.
Dennis Ferguson - 02 Jul 2009 17:03 GMT
>>Why should that be? There's a huge (okay, I'm dating myself) chuck of
>>NAND FLASH in every iPhone. What settings do you expect to find cleared?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> a guess that it's using NTP from Apple's servers, although I've never
> bothered to packet sniff to find out.

This makes sense, actually.  Most GSM networks worldwide don't
broadcast the time since GSM base stations (unlike CDMA) aren't
required to know what time it is.  It is only in North America,
where the GSM networks compete with time-capable CDMA and where GPS
receivers are often deployed with GSM base stations to help with E911
positioning, that the facility is ubiquitous.  The mechanism to
optionally broadcast the time from GSM base stations was only added
to the GSM standard around the time that US networks began to deploy
GSM.

NTP hence seems like the lowest common denominator.  It works
everywhere as long as the phone has an Internet connection, which
the iPhone assumes will be all the time.

Dennis Ferguson
News - 02 Jul 2009 17:44 GMT
>>> Why should that be? There's a huge (okay, I'm dating myself) chuck of
>>> NAND FLASH in every iPhone. What settings do you expect to find cleared?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> to the GSM standard around the time that US networks began to deploy
> GSM.

System time broadcast is ubiquitous in Africa, the Middle East and
portions of the Caribbean.

Cell ID is also broadcast in many places, including Africa.
Dennis Ferguson - 02 Jul 2009 18:36 GMT
>> This makes sense, actually.  Most GSM networks worldwide don't
>> broadcast the time since GSM base stations (unlike CDMA) aren't
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Cell ID is also broadcast in many places, including Africa.

Yes, I probably overstated that (though I've been to South Africa
and the carrier I used there didn't seem to do it).  It seems to
be unusual where I've been in Europe and Asia, though in the UK
I've seen a different mechanism in use (on Orange, I think) which
only works when you use GPRS.  Telstra in Australia does it, though
I'm pretty sure they didn't when I first went there.

I've only ever seen Cell ID in use in China, on China Unicom, but
that network didn't broadcast time even though the facility shares
the same GSM message.

Dennis Ferguson
DevilsPGD - 02 Jul 2009 19:59 GMT
>NTP hence seems like the lowest common denominator.  It works
>everywhere as long as the phone has an Internet connection, which
>the iPhone assumes will be all the time.

It's a bit of a pain when you're traveling though, if you rely on the
no-data-while-roaming switch then you don't get accurate time on your
device even though time is available from the network.

OTOH, given how badly some networks (I'm looking at you, Rogers) bungle
their time settings, maybe it's not all bad.
nospam - 03 Jul 2009 19:58 GMT
> Oddly the iPhone doesn't seem to, if you put the iPhone on a blocked
> data plan without wifi it doesn't seem to update the time, so I'd hazard
> a guess that it's using NTP from Apple's servers, although I've never
> bothered to packet sniff to find out.

the iphone definitely gets the time off the phone network.  i disabled
data entirely leaving only voice, and when i got off a plane in a
different time zone, the phone obtained the correct time.
John Navas - 03 Jul 2009 20:17 GMT
>> Oddly the iPhone doesn't seem to, if you put the iPhone on a blocked
>> data plan without wifi it doesn't seem to update the time, so I'd hazard
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>data entirely leaving only voice, and when i got off a plane in a
>different time zone, the phone obtained the correct time.

Sorry, but this is Usenet, reserved for rumors, speculation, and flaming
-- actual facts are off-topic.  ;)

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 03 Jul 2009 20:47 GMT
> Sorry, but this is Usenet, reserved for rumors, speculation, and flaming
> -- actual facts are off-topic.  ;)

that would explain your posts.
DevilsPGD - 04 Jul 2009 03:35 GMT
>> Oddly the iPhone doesn't seem to, if you put the iPhone on a blocked
>> data plan without wifi it doesn't seem to update the time, so I'd hazard
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>data entirely leaving only voice, and when i got off a plane in a
>different time zone, the phone obtained the correct time.

Ahh good point -- It pulls the time *zone* from the network, but the
time from data, or did in 2.2.1, anyway.
nospam - 04 Jul 2009 11:58 GMT
> >> Oddly the iPhone doesn't seem to, if you put the iPhone on a blocked
> >> data plan without wifi it doesn't seem to update the time, so I'd hazard
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Ahh good point -- It pulls the time *zone* from the network, but the
> time from data, or did in 2.2.1, anyway.

it gets the time from the gsm network, and in fact it is sometimes a
minute off compared to a cdma phone.
DevilsPGD - 05 Jul 2009 06:44 GMT
>> >> Oddly the iPhone doesn't seem to, if you put the iPhone on a blocked
>> >> data plan without wifi it doesn't seem to update the time, so I'd hazard
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>it gets the time from the gsm network

I'll try and confirm this when I'm in the US in a couple weeks, but when
I was playing around in the DFW area with data roaming disabled, I
wasn't able to get the time from AT&T (although the time zone did
update) but as soon as I came into a wifi area, the clock updated as
well.
Colum Mylod - 01 Jul 2009 10:46 GMT
[snip lots of interesting chat]

>I don't know how it works with GSM, but when I'm out of range of any
>cell tower, my phone starts to hunt for a connection by cranking up
>the power output to max, and almost continuously announcing its
>presence.  Battery life under such conditions is about 4 hours.

GSM may never crank up the power until it has scanned and found a
signal it can use. This is to avoid problems in countries where GSM is
not the norm, otherwise the phone would go broadcast mad using a
possibly locally-illegal band and standard. Would yours in Europe or
Japan?

I like this thread: the i-everything is a marketing triumph but
anything that can't just present a USB drive to a pooter is of no use
to me. Sony Sonic rubbish and a Philips even more horrible proprietary
interface; been there, hated them all. iTunes shop, ugh. All your mp3
and mp4 are belong to Apple. Lovely interface on the iPhone but the
airtime and itunes lock ins lose me.

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Dennis Ferguson - 01 Jul 2009 20:28 GMT
> [snip lots of interesting chat]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> possibly locally-illegal band and standard. Would yours in Europe or
> Japan?

I don't think CDMA phones actually transmit anything until they've
heard a tower they can talk to as well.  This is at least as important
for CDMA as for GSM since CDMA operates in bands shared by other
modes, and might inadvertently step all over someone else's licensed
band if it transmitted before hearing the thing it expected to receive
the signal (I think CDMA phones may also need to time-synchronize with
the tower before transmitting something to it, which it can't do if it
can't hear the tower).  I think the battery draw is instead caused by the
computing the phone needs to do while scanning for a signal to synchronize
to.

I think scanning for a GSM signal might be cheaper than that, though
I suspect scanning for a WCDMA signal might be equally difficult.  As
for the difference in practice, I've noticed that my GSM/3G phones
tend to give up scanning and just stay idle after a period with no
signal (until I push a button or something to prompt it to try again)
while the CDMA phones I've had seem to just keep searching until the
battery is gone.  I don't know why that is.

Dennis Ferguson
John Navas - 01 Jul 2009 22:50 GMT
>> [snip lots of interesting chat]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>computing the phone needs to do while scanning for a signal to synchronize
>to.

That's not it works, and both GSM and CDMA mobiles check in (register)
periodically when on, whether they hear traffic or not, so the network
knows where they are.  Otherwise the network would have to "ring" all
cells for an incoming mobile call, which would be wildly inefficient and
impractical.

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Dennis Ferguson - 02 Jul 2009 17:13 GMT
>>I don't think CDMA phones actually transmit anything until they've
>>heard a tower they can talk to as well.  This is at least as important
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> cells for an incoming mobile call, which would be wildly inefficient and
> impractical.

You are changing the topic.  The phone registers with a tower when
it can hear it, and once attached to the network exchanges messages
periodically.  When the phone is not registered with the network it
transmits nothing until it hears a tower it might want to talk to.

Dennis Ferguson
John Navas - 02 Jul 2009 19:47 GMT
>>>I don't think CDMA phones actually transmit anything until they've
>>>heard a tower they can talk to as well.  This is at least as important
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>periodically.  When the phone is not registered with the network it
>transmits nothing until it hears a tower it might want to talk to.

So you really think cell phones don't run down their batteries much
faster when on standby in a weak-to-no signal area as compared to a
strong signal area?  ;)

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Colum Mylod - 03 Jul 2009 10:17 GMT
>I think scanning for a GSM signal might be cheaper than that, though
>I suspect scanning for a WCDMA signal might be equally difficult.  As
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>while the CDMA phones I've had seem to just keep searching until the
>battery is gone.  I don't know why that is.

My observation on longish runs of no signal (chunnel England-France
35mins or longer on a bad day) is that several models of phones do
keep scanning but not in a battery-draining way. As soon as the train
comes up for air the phone wakes up and its GSM buzzes can be heard
again on audio gear (especially if roaming - which net do I use). If
you try a manual selection in dead air space, it immediately replies
with No Signal, no delay, no "maybe I ought to check first".

They do gobble battery resources on weak links as expected since the
tx level is not backed off, and those breakthrough buzzes shriek
higher.

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Jeff Liebermann - 02 Jul 2009 17:42 GMT
>[snip lots of interesting chat]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>possibly locally-illegal band and standard. Would yours in Europe or
>Japan?

Methinks not.  In the US, licensing and allocation of cellular
bandwidth is by major cellular provider (AT&T, Verizon, T-mobile,
Sprint, etc) and therefore by modulation method.  You will never hear
GSM and CDMA signal on the same frequencies.  You will hear them on
the same band (i.e. 850MHz, 1900MHz in the US), but not on overlapping
frequencies.  Besides, CDMA, being spread spectrum, has no way to
detect a GSM TDMA carrier.  The spread spectrum deconvolution process
turns a non-spread spectrum carrier, such as with GSM, into wide band
and low level noise.  That's how spread spectrum gets its fabulous
interference rejection.  Similarly, GSM treats CDMA as just noise.

FCC Cellular Band Plan for 850Mhz:
<http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_bandplan&id=cellular>
FCC Cellular Band Plan for 1900mhz:
<http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_bandplan&id=broadband_pcs>
A Block US map:
<http://people.ku.edu/~cinema/wireless/Natl_Cell_A.html>
B Block US map:
<http://people.ku.edu/~cinema/wireless/Natl_Cell_B.html>

This is why you won't find more than two primary providers using
850MHz in one geographic area.  With only two sub-bands available, the
850MHz band can only handle two providers, especially if they use
different modulation methods.  1900MHz can handle 3 major providers
and about 3-5 minor providers.  Each can have their own favorite
modulation method.  

I don't really know how GSM or CDMA handles the initial scanning for
base stations.  I tried to Google for this info and failed.  However,
I did find this page on hacking GSM:
<http://wiki.thc.org/gsm>
It will take a while to digest.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 21:56 GMT
> >> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the
> >> charger so you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It's a significant number, and by no means the only advantage.
> Arguing otherwise is just plain silly, yet another Apple Excuse.

No, it's pointing out another example of a supposedly significant
criticism of Apple that actually boils down to "Apple only designed
this product to meet the needs of 90% of users, not 100%, therefore it
sucks".

> >> USB can be made to carry pretty much anything digital, and
> >> claiming otherwise directly contradicts claims of superior Apple
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> All audio and video in handsets are in digital format, and most are
> unprotected.

And if the RIAA and MPAA were reasonable, that would even matter.

> >> Really?  What other such relatively expensive devices do you know
> >> of where battery replacement is as difficult?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I respectfully disagree.

Unless you're dreaming of a world where you can replace individual
components of your cell phone, I don't really see what you could be
after here.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

-hh - 29 Jun 2009 18:27 GMT
> >Non-removable batteries provide better battery life. This is not
> >anything anyone, particularly Apple, has attempted to make a secret of.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> relatively small, and the downside is pretty big, making it a poor
> tradeoff for the consumer, only a good tradeoff for the manufacturer.

With large doses of "YMMV" when it comes to what is big/small.  For
example, on the newer Mac laptops, it appears that getting rid of the
replacable battery has raised battery life from roughly 5 hours to 8
hours, at zero cost in weight, etc.

> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
> -- just swap batteries, and you're good to go.

Even easier (no battery pulling required) is to plug it in before you
go to bed.   Afterall, most humans need at least 6 hours of sleep, day
in day out.

> >> I'm not sure if you include mechanical construction in your "better
> >> hardware specs".  If you've ever tried to replace the battery
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Really?  What other such relatively expensive devices do you know
> of where battery replacement is as difficult?

Citizen Hyper Aqualand.

The Factory used to charge $87, as your local drugstore lacks the
gaskets and pressure chamber to properly reseal & recalibrate the
watch afterwords.  Hurley Roberts now does it for $68-$130 +battery,
depending on how many seals it needs.

US Divers Monitor I and II Dive Computers

These batteries are potted in (EnviroGel) and are similarly considered
a 'Factory Replacement'; ballpark $75-$100.

> >This is a natural consequence
> >of a) increasing miniaturization and b) the relative decline in cost of
> >initial manufacturing vs. repair (primarily as a consequence of the
> >former being easier to automate).
>
> It's actually a natural consequence of planned obsolescence.

Precisely like how in digital photography there's advocates of
"bridge" cameras that emulate a digital SLR, yet these have a non-
removable lens, so one is forced to also buy new glass every time you
want to upgrade the sensor.

-hh
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 19:37 GMT
>> What non-removable batteries actually provide is more efficient use o\f
>> space, making for a slightly larger battery in the same phone form
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>replacable battery has raised battery life from roughly 5 hours to 8
>hours, at zero cost in weight, etc.

Apples and oranges comparison -- you have to compare the same generation
of battery technology and power management to draw any valid
conclusions.

>> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
>> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>go to bed.   Afterall, most humans need at least 6 hours of sleep, day
>in day out.

Doesn't work if you forget to do it.  
Swapping batteries is much faster and more reliable.
And there are other advantages as well.

>> Really?  What other such relatively expensive devices do you know
>> of where battery replacement is as difficult?
>
>Citizen Hyper Aqualand.
>US Divers Monitor I and II Dive Computers

Thanks for proving my point.

>> It's actually a natural consequence of planned obsolescence.
>
>Precisely like how in digital photography there's advocates of
>"bridge" cameras that emulate a digital SLR, yet these have a non-
>removable lens, so one is forced to also buy new glass every time you
>want to upgrade the sensor.

There are of course disposable compact digital cameras, but the better
ones have superior lenses to dSLR cameras that can't be matched even at
many times the price, aren't subject to real obsolescence, and have
compelling advantages of cost, size, weight, and handling.  In other
words, not a good analogy.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 20:09 GMT
> Apples and oranges comparison -- you have to compare the same generation
> of battery technology and power management to draw any valid
> conclusions.

nope. changing to an internal battery allows for different and possibly
better battery technology.

> >> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
> >> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Doesn't work if you forget to do it.  

nor does it work out if you forget to charge the spare.

> Swapping batteries is much faster and more reliable.
> And there are other advantages as well.

there are advantages to each.  what matters is what best benefits the
typical consumer.  there will always be users at the edges of the curve
who need multiple batteries or can go weeks on just one charge.  those
are *not* typical.
-hh - 29 Jun 2009 20:30 GMT
> > Apples and oranges comparison -- you have to compare
> > the same generation of battery technology and power
> > management to draw any valid conclusions.
>
> nope. changing to an internal battery allows for different and possibly
> better battery technology.

Navas is also wrong because even if we ignore that factor, the
elimination of the battery case & related pieces aren't weightless, so
a "bigger battery" can thus be installed at the same system weight.

> > >> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
> > >> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> nor does it work out if you forget to charge the spare.

It also fails if one forgets to swap out to the spare.

Consequently, intead of just one failure point, there's now two
failure point opportunities in what Navas claims is "better".

> > Swapping batteries is much faster and more reliable.
> > And there are other advantages as well.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> who need multiple batteries or can go weeks on just one charge.  those
> are *not* typical.

Exactly.  As such, it is best reserved for speciality applications
where the simpler, less-error-prone process is inadequate.

[Edit:  restored]
>>> It's actually a natural consequence of planned obsolescence.
> >
> >Precisely like how in digital photography there's advocates of
> >"bridge" cameras that emulate a digital SLR, yet these have a non-
> >removable lens, so one is forced to also buy new glass every time you
> >want to upgrade the sensor.

This was mentioned because Navas holds strong opinions on "built-ins"
when it comes to other modern electronics, which contradicts his anti-
built-in position here:

> ...but the better ones have superior lenses to dSLR cameras
>  that can't be matched even at many times the price,..

In other words, Navas is saying that it has a *great* lens.

>  aren't subject to real obsolescence,

Except that that *great* glass has to be thrown away when the sensor
starts to develop hot spots and fail, or if the camera's electronics
go up...or merely that the owner simply wants to move up to a newer
camera with more features or pixels.

>  In other words, not a good analogy.

Because it revealed Navas's hypocrisy.

Modularity is good when John wants it...
...and when he doesn't, its then evil and overly expensive.

-hh
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 23:07 GMT
>> nope. changing to an internal battery allows for different and possibly
>> better battery technology.
>
>Navas is also wrong because even if we ignore that factor, the
>elimination of the battery case & related pieces aren't weightless, so
>a "bigger battery" can thus be installed at the same system weight.

The difference isn't significant.  
You're getting pretty desperate and silly.
The rest of your post is even worse,
There's just no reasoning with those who have drunk the Apple Kool-Aid.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 30 Jun 2009 03:00 GMT
> >> nope. changing to an internal battery allows for different and possibly
> >> better battery technology.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The rest of your post is even worse,
> There's just no reasoning with those who have drunk the Apple Kool-Aid.

the fact that you keep resorting to such remarks shows just how weak
your argument really is.
-hh - 30 Jun 2009 11:51 GMT
> [other attributions]
> > >> nope. changing to an internal battery allows for different and possibly
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the fact that you keep resorting to such remarks shows just how weak
> your argument really is.

Plus the redesign resulted in 5 hour life to 8 hours = 60%
improvement.
YMMV on if 60% is "insignificant".

-hh

--

"When [John Navas] can't respond to direct points, he just deletes the
post and responds to everything you've said with a one-word
dismissal.  Then if you complain about his behavior he tosses you into
the coveted twit filter."
 -  Stephen Bishop (from <rec.photo.digital>)
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 23:04 GMT
>> Apples and oranges comparison -- you have to compare the same generation
>> of battery technology and power management to draw any valid
>> conclusions.
>
>nope. changing to an internal battery allows for different and possibly
>better battery technology.

Nope.  Saying so doesn't make it so.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 20:09 GMT
> >Non-removable batteries provide better battery life. This is not
> >anything anyone, particularly Apple, has attempted to make a secret of.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> relatively small, and the downside is pretty big, making it a poor
> tradeoff for the consumer, only a good tradeoff for the manufacturer.

the difference is actually not small as apple's new macbooks show.  8+
hours battery life is "Battery Life to Die For" and "The Best Battery
Life I¹ve Ever Seen"

<http://anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3580&p=4>

> For example, it's handy to be able to keep a battery in the charger so
> you don't have to keep your phone on a charger for long periods of time
> -- just swap batteries, and you're good to go.

except that the typical cellphone lasts more than one day (often a
couple of days in average use) so it's not a big deal to put it on the
charger at night.

> >> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
> >> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> USB can be made to carry pretty much anything digital, and claiming
> otherwise directly contradicts claims of superior Apple engineering.

nonsense.

> >> I'm not sure if you include mechanical construction in your "better
> >> hardware specs".  If you've ever tried to replace the battery
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Really?  What other such relatively expensive devices do you know of
> where battery replacement is as difficult?

flip video camera.
chingding123 - 29 Jul 2009 04:20 GMT
> In article <6svf45dm0t2j8jlsb6rqjhelvssffgl...@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 152 lines]
> anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
> must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

This shouldn't surprise anyone. The some phenomenon exists in
politics.
Extremists always have far more in common with each other -- even when
they're on opposite sides -- than they do with reasonable people.
News - 29 Jul 2009 12:10 GMT
>> In article <6svf45dm0t2j8jlsb6rqjhelvssffgl...@4ax.com>,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 137 lines]
> Extremists always have far more in common with each other -- even when
> they're on opposite sides -- than they do with reasonable people.

James Carville and Mary Matalin come to mind...
nospam - 29 Jun 2009 04:43 GMT
> I find the iPhone to be fairly typical hardware and the result of some
> necessary compromises.  The original version had an HSDPA (3G) modem,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> was too small to run the iPhone all day.  To fit a larger battery, the
> hardware involved in battery connections and mounting were removed.

all of the ipods had non-removable batteries and i'm sure that was a
decision made very early on.

> Wi-Fi range on both the iPhone and iPod Touch are very limited due to
> an undersized antenna and limited RF power (and possibly limited
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> iPod Touch will barely go 15ft.  Oddly, a friends 1G (first
> generation) iPod Touch version will go perhaps 30ft.

that's strange. i can easily get a decent signal on the opposite side
of a house, probably 40 feet over and up a floor, with roughly the same
number of bars on the indicator as on my laptop.  the base station is
the actiontec that verizon hands out.

> Of course, the i/o connector, charger, and sync cables are essentially
> proprietary.  It wouldn't do to have used a common 5 pin mini-USB
> connector.  

the dock connector was born with the 3rd generation ipod which had to
support both firewire and usb, along with line out, remote control and
other signals.  the same dock connector has been used for all
subsequent ipods other than the shuffle.  when the iphone appeared, it
was only logical to continue using the same dock connector, and most
accessories worked.  the pinout is available from apple and *lots* of
third parties make products of all kinds, including a breathalyzer.  a
5 pin usb port offers absolutely no advantages whatsoever.

> Well, at least they got the earphone jack correct.

almost.  the original iphone had a standard headphone jack but it was
recessed 'for stress'.  adapters appeared, but it was replaced with a
normal one in the iphone 3g.  the t-mobile g1, however, *doesn't* have
a normal headphone jack at all.  that's just stupid.

> I'm not sure if you include mechanical construction in your "better
> hardware specs".  If you've ever tried to replace the battery
> yourself, you'll wonder if it was designed to be repaired.  Probably
> not.

replacing the battery in the iphone 3g is easier than the original
iphone, but it's not really designed to be opened up.

> I've bid on several broken iPod Touch units on eBay (without success).
> Apparently broken displays and water damage are common.

it seems that the sensors are a bit too sensitive, and for some reason,
the prices of broken ipods on ebay go for not a whole lot less than
refurbished from apple or good condition used, sometimes more.  but
that's ebay i guess.  i gave up trying to find one there.
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 17:47 GMT
>that's strange. i can easily get a decent signal on the opposite side
>of a house, probably 40 feet over and up a floor, with roughly the same
>number of bars on the indicator as on my laptop.  ...

The number of bars is meaningless -- there is no standard for what a bar
means, even within the products of a given manufacturer.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 20:09 GMT
> >that's strange. i can easily get a decent signal on the opposite side
> >of a house, probably 40 feet over and up a floor, with roughly the same
> >number of bars on the indicator as on my laptop.  ...
>
> The number of bars is meaningless -- there is no standard for what a bar
> means, even within the products of a given manufacturer.

4 bars is stronger than 1 bar on the same device and it's basically the
same source code on both devices.  the point is that i get decent speed
at a much greater distance than what jeff reports.
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 23:08 GMT
>> The number of bars is meaningless -- there is no standard for what a bar
>> means, even within the products of a given manufacturer.
>
>4 bars is stronger than 1 bar on the same device and it's basically the
>same source code on both devices.  ...

Still meaningless.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 30 Jun 2009 03:00 GMT
> >> The number of bars is meaningless -- there is no standard for what a bar
> >> means, even within the products of a given manufacturer.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Still meaningless.

it's not meaningless. 4 bars gives me much better performance than 1
bar and that's been the case on just about every device i've used.
Jeff Liebermann - 30 Jun 2009 09:17 GMT
>> >that's strange. i can easily get a decent signal on the opposite side
>> >of a house, probably 40 feet over and up a floor, with roughly the same
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>same source code on both devices.  the point is that i get decent speed
>at a much greater distance than what jeff reports.

Yeah, I've been chewing on that for a day and suspected that there may
be a difference in antennas and radios between your iPhone and my iPod
Touch.  However, looking at the various FCC documents, I find both to
be identical and rated at 9 to 11dbm power output into a 1.2dBi gain
antenna.

However, looking at the photos of the antenna sections, the iPod Touch
1G has a plastic window for the antenna covering one corner of the
back of the unit.  The 2G shrank the window into a smaller oval.  The
iPhone has most of the top back of the unit for antennas.  They may
all have the same Wi-Fi tx power and antenna gain, but the aperture
size through the metal back is radically different.

iPhone inside photos:
<https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=965778
&native_or_pdf=pdf
>

iPod Touch 2G AND 1G inside photos:
<https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=997381
&native_or_pdf=pdf
>
<https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=766954
&native_or_pdf=pdf
>

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Walter Bushell - 01 Jul 2009 15:36 GMT
> it seems that the sensors are a bit too sensitive, and for some reason,
> the prices of broken ipods on ebay go for not a whole lot less than
> refurbished from apple or good condition used, sometimes more.  but
> that's ebay i guess.  i gave up trying to find one there.

Hello archy, still can't hit the key and the caps lock at the same time
I see. It's bad when live enroaches on one.

Any yes, eBay is like that. The run ads to glorify "winning" the
auction, which is a sucker's game. I have a friend who states that he
wins the lottery every week because he doesn't play. Obviously he comes
out ahead. Competitive fever in an auction is a beautiful thing if you
are selling.
nospam - 28 Jun 2009 22:46 GMT
> Personally, I think the main draw of the iPhone is the perceived ease
> of use.  It's so simple a cave person could use one, as paraphrased
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> example, having to delete email one message at a time is rather
> limiting.

email messages can be deleted in batches.

> So much for easy to use.  The fashion statement buyers will
> never dive below the superficial easy to use surface.  The fanatics
> will dig deep, writing apps, jailbreaking, and hacking at features. In
> between, most users are impressed with the look, tolerate the marginal
> design decisions, live with the tight ties to Apple, pay the price,
> and live blissfully ignorant of what they're missing.

as opposed to the tight ties to verizon or another carrier that also
has their own limitations, sometimes more so?

> What to do with your iPhone while NOT connected to the internet:
> Rearrange your icons.  It's almost as much fun as a Rubick's Cube.

there are plenty of apps that do not need an internet connection,
including reference apps, such as medical reference, dictionaries in
various languages, translation apps between languages and one app which
downloads most of wikipedia (approximately 2 gig's worth).  email can
be read and replied offline and sent when there is an internet
connection again, along with plenty of games that work quite well
without an internet connection and quite a bit more.
Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 00:31 GMT
>email messages can be deleted in batches.

Not with the stock email app on my iPod Touch 2G with 3.0 firmware:
<http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2879>
<http://www.modmyi.com/forums/native-iphone-ipod-touch-app-discussion/3992-bulk-e
mail-delete.html
>
<http://www.ifonenation.com/2008/07/16/how-to-bulk-delete-email-messages-in-iphone-20/>

>as opposed to the tight ties to verizon or another carrier that also
>has their own limitations, sometimes more so?

Yep.  The joy of BREW.  
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Runtime_Environment_for_Wireless>
That's why I'm divorcing my PDA from my cell phone.  I'm on Verizon
and am rather disgusted with the almost arbitrary selection of
features (mostly Bluetooth profiles) that they disable:
<http://support.vzw.com/pdf/BT_Chart_PDAs.pdf>
<http://support.vzw.com/pdf/BT_Chart_Handsets.pdf>
AT&T and Apple are no better, but the availability of 3rd party apps
for the iPhone make it tolerable.  Still, my patience is limited and
find that carrying two devices with Wi-Fi is a lesser evil than one
device with 3G wireless and predatory vendors.

>> What to do with your iPhone while NOT connected to the internet:
>> Rearrange your icons.  It's almost as much fun as a Rubick's Cube.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>various languages, translation apps between languages and one app which
>downloads most of wikipedia (approximately 2 gig's worth).

I have most of that installed including one encyclopedia and medical
reference book that total about 1GByte.  Yes, I can read them offline.
However, most of my favorite apps do benefit from connectivity.  For
example, eTrade's app for checking stock prices and financial news.
Also, lots of games to play.

However, since I seem to be having some difficulty communicating
today, I find it necessary to explain that my comment was not to
suggest that the iPod Touch or iPhone is useless when not connected.
It's just that it's generally more useful with an internet connection.
The comment about rearranging the icons has two meanings.  One is that
it's an absolute PITA to get the icons organized in anything better
than a random arrangement.  When I insert an icon in between some
other icons, they move out of the way in a non-obvious manner, such as
one would observe trying to organize a Rubick's Cube.  I suppose
there's an app for organizing the icons, but I couldn't find one.  The
other meaning is a not so subtle hint that cleaning up one's desk,
piling papers, and organizing icons is not exactly being productive.

>email can
>be read and replied offline and sent when there is an internet
>connection again, along with plenty of games that work quite well
>without an internet connection and quite a bit more.

Agreed.  But rearranging the icons is almost as much fun.  Perhaps
someone should write a game, where the object is to organize the icons
in a rational manner, without losing any or going insane in the
process.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 01:02 GMT
> >email messages can be deleted in batches.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> <http://www.modmyi.com/forums/native-iphone-ipod-touch-app-discussion/3992-bul
> k-email-delete.html>

well if you read it on the 'net it must be true.

> <http://www.ifonenation.com/2008/07/16/how-to-bulk-delete-email-messages-in-ip
> hone-20/>

and that link explains how.  when looking at a mailbox, tap the edit
button at the top right, tap the messages to select the ones you want
to delete and then tap the delete button at the bottom left.  a number
in brackets increments, showing how many will be deleted.  or, press
the move button to move them to another folder.

it's a helluva lot better than what was in 1.x, where you swiped and
tapped delete for every single message.

> >as opposed to the tight ties to verizon or another carrier that also
> >has their own limitations, sometimes more so?
>
> Yep.  The joy of BREW.  

indeed.

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Runtime_Environment_for_Wireless>

"Time to market can take longer with BREW than with Java ME because of
BREW's rigorous certification requirements."  

and people bitch about apple's approval process.

> However, since I seem to be having some difficulty communicating
> today, I find it necessary to explain that my comment was not to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> other meaning is a not so subtle hint that cleaning up one's desk,
> piling papers, and organizing icons is not exactly being productive.

the problem with arranging icons is that it's a bitch to do it on the
device itself.  i don't find it random; the icons go where i put them
but it might displace one to the next page. i've taken to using the
dock as a 'shelf' where i can move groups of 4 from page to page.
otherwise, it's a serious pain in the butt.

it really should be done in itunes and synced, maybe like this:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wfv0OJ1oMQ>
Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 02:33 GMT
>> >email messages can be deleted in batches.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>well if you read it on the 'net it must be true.

I like to substantiate my allegations.  URL's are a good way to do
that.  (The only problem is that I can usually find links to both
sides of any point of contention).  When I'm not sure of myself, I
just submit more than one URL.  Quantity is a good substitute for
quality.

>> <http://www.ifonenation.com/2008/07/16/how-to-bulk-delete-email-messages-in-ip
>> hone-20/>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>in brackets increments, showing how many will be deleted.  or, press
>the move button to move them to another folder.

Yeah right.  I'll admit that it's easier, but still a PITA.  Even with
the new and improved method, I still have to mark each message to be
deleted individually.  I have 1500 messages in my spam folder.  Wanna
guess how long that's going to take?  Just how difficult is it for
Apple to implement a "select all" feature?

>it's a helluva lot better than what was in 1.x, where you swiped and
>tapped delete for every single message.

One small step for man, one giant step, etc.  Yeah, it's easier, but
it's still one message at a time.

>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Runtime_Environment_for_Wireless>
>
>"Time to market can take longer with BREW than with Java ME because of
>BREW's rigorous certification requirements."  

Also, Verizon has zero interest in getting apps approved (i.e. no
revenue stream) so they're understandably laggard.  On the hardware
front, there's some hope with the third or forth attempt for Verizon
to pretend they're interested in being "open" will survive:
<https://www22.verizon.com/opendev/>

>and people bitch about apple's approval process.

3-4 weeks delay is about typical and good enough.  I think most of the
complaints are about feature limitations by Apple and some apparently
arbitrary decisions.

>the problem with arranging icons is that it's a bitch to do it on the
>device itself.

Yep.  If it were easy, it would be no fun.

>i don't find it random; the icons go where i put them
>but it might displace one to the next page. i've taken to using the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>it really should be done in itunes and synced, maybe like this:
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wfv0OJ1oMQ>

Very nice, but they made a mistake.  When they moved a row of 4 icons
to the 2nd page, the icons below where the icons were formerly sitting
were moved up.  In my never humble opinion, there should be NO such
automatic fills.

Personally, I've been using multiple desktops in Linux since the stone
age of Xfree86.  Each desktop has it's own purpose and contains only
icons needed for that purpose.  It would not be too difficult to do
the same with the iPhone.  The problem is that it might also be
necessary to allow multiple identical icons on different pages.

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nospam - 29 Jun 2009 04:43 GMT
> Yeah right.  I'll admit that it's easier, but still a PITA.  Even with
> the new and improved method, I still have to mark each message to be
> deleted individually.  I have 1500 messages in my spam folder.  Wanna
> guess how long that's going to take?  Just how difficult is it for
> Apple to implement a "select all" feature?

i agree with that.  there should be a select all/select none, but my
question is why are you deleting so many from the iphone?  i have spam
routed to a folder which gets deleted automatically after a couple of
days. i never look at that folder on the iphone.  there's nothing there
that i want to look at.

> >and people bitch about apple's approval process.
>
> 3-4 weeks delay is about typical and good enough.  I think most of the
> complaints are about feature limitations by Apple and some apparently
> arbitrary decisions.

98% are approved within a week.
<http://www.macworld.com/article/139435/2009/03/iphone_stats.html>

> >it really should be done in itunes and synced, maybe like this:
> ><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wfv0OJ1oMQ>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> were moved up.  In my never humble opinion, there should be NO such
> automatic fills.

i don't mind the auto-arrange, however, there really needs to be
folders.  having 11 pages of apps (in 3.0) and flipping among them is
stupid.  sure, spotlight can search by name but c'mon, folders just
makes sense.

> Personally, I've been using multiple desktops in Linux since the stone
> age of Xfree86.  Each desktop has it's own purpose and contains only
> icons needed for that purpose.  It would not be too difficult to do
> the same with the iPhone.  The problem is that it might also be
> necessary to allow multiple identical icons on different pages.

that starts to get confusing. i doubt they want to deal with aliases of
apps, at least at this point.  they need to do folders first.
Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 07:25 GMT
>my
>question is why are you deleting so many from the iphone?  i have spam
>routed to a folder which gets deleted automatically after a couple of
>days. i never look at that folder on the iphone.  there's nothing there
>that i want to look at.

I can do that if my ISP supported IMAP4.  However, they currently only
support POP3 meaning I have to download all the spam before I can
delete any.  With IMAP4, I can delete it while it's still on the
server.  Even though the mail is sorted and marked as spam by my ISP,
it still gets downloaded.  Fortunately, it all ends up in a seperate
folder.  However, the Mail application on my Ipod Touch 2G v3.0
doesn't have a way to expire the folder, vaporize anything, or do any
housekeeping.

Incidentally, I get about 30-50 valid messages per day (including
mailing lists).  Even with spam filtering, I still get 20-50 spam
messages per day.

>98% are approved within a week.
><http://www.macworld.com/article/139435/2009/03/iphone_stats.html>

Nice.  One of my friends wrote two game apps.  One took 2 months.  The
other was 2 or 3 weeks.  However, that was in March or April, when the
delays were longer.

>that starts to get confusing. i doubt they want to deal with aliases of
>apps, at least at this point.  they need to do folders first.

Folders would be nice.  Lots of other features from the OS/X desktop
would be nice.  Might as well throw in the kitchen sink.  However, I
suspect Apple's philosophy is to keep things simple and minimal.  The
present system is workable but will soon be overloaded as the number
of apps increases.  Methinks some kind of heirarchial apps directory
structure would be nice.  Folders will work, but tend to hide too many
things.  A simple tree structure would be good enough.

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nospam - 29 Jun 2009 07:53 GMT
> >98% are approved within a week.
> ><http://www.macworld.com/article/139435/2009/03/iphone_stats.html>
>
> Nice.  One of my friends wrote two game apps.  One took 2 months.  The
> other was 2 or 3 weeks.  However, that was in March or April, when the
> delays were longer.

and if you read that link, it was from the march event where they
demoed 3.0.  approval time varies wildly.  some people get approved
within days and others who submit at approximately the same time wait
several weeks.  maybe some apps require more scrutiny.

> Folders would be nice.  Lots of other features from the OS/X desktop
> would be nice.  Might as well throw in the kitchen sink.  However, I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> structure would be nice.  Folders will work, but tend to hide too many
> things.  A simple tree structure would be good enough.

it already is overloaded.  they just upped the maximum number of app
pages from 9 in 2.x to 11 pages in 3.x, and in 3.x, apps need not show
up on a page because they can be accessed via a spotlight search.  so
with a 32 gig iphone, you can load up an awful lot of apps, perhaps
thousands of them, and as long as you can remember the name of the app
so you can find it in a search, you can run it.  hopefully folders will
appear soon, since what they have now simply does not scale.
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 17:59 GMT
>I can do that if my ISP supported IMAP4.  However, they currently only
>support POP3 meaning I have to download all the spam before I can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>doesn't have a way to expire the folder, vaporize anything, or do any
>housekeeping.

You could easily get IMAP4 by forwarding your mail to a Google account
or simply by having Google host your email, as I've suggested before,
but you apparently prefer to harp on your ISP.  ;)

>>that starts to get confusing. i doubt they want to deal with aliases of
>>apps, at least at this point.  they need to do folders first.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>structure would be nice.  Folders will work, but tend to hide too many
>things.  A simple tree structure would be good enough.

I disagree -- folders are an essential and well-understood paradigm.
All that's needed to overcome any hiding issue is a decent search
capability, another essential and well-understood paradigm.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 29 Jun 2009 20:09 GMT
> >>that starts to get confusing. i doubt they want to deal with aliases of
> >>apps, at least at this point.  they need to do folders first.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> All that's needed to overcome any hiding issue is a decent search
> capability, another essential and well-understood paradigm.

the search is there now, it's the folders they need to add.
ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 04:58 GMT
[snip]

> >and that link explains how.  when looking at a mailbox, tap the edit
> >button at the top right, tap the messages to select the ones you want
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> guess how long that's going to take?  Just how difficult is it for
> Apple to implement a "select all" feature?

Generally the way you'd have an iPhone set up, it would only be showing
you the most recent 25 or 50 messages or whatever. (The IMAP-based
search function will happily let you search for and view older messages,
of course.)

This seems more reasonable, frankly, than having 1500 messages displayed
in your phone interface.

[snip]

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Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 07:31 GMT
>Generally the way you'd have an iPhone set up, it would only be showing
>you the most recent 25 or 50 messages or whatever. (The IMAP-based
>search function will happily let you search for and view older messages,
>of course.)

True, but I can't just let the spam accumulate on the phone at the
rate of 30-50 spam messages per day.  There should be a way to
vaporize it.  As it stands now, my ISP only supports POP3, not IMAP4.
With POP3, I have to download all my messages before I can delete
them.  I'm going to switch over to my Gmail account, which suports
IMAP4.  Decide what I want to download first and vaporize the rest on
the mail server.  It's still a pain marking 1500 messages, but at
least I don't have to download them.  Maybe a different email
application.

>This seems more reasonable, frankly, than having 1500 messages displayed
>in your phone interface.

Looking at the Settings page, the choices are 25, 50, 75, 100, 200
messages.  I have it set to 100 recent messages.

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John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 17:53 GMT
>"Time to market can take longer with BREW than with Java ME because of
>BREW's rigorous certification requirements."  
>
>and people bitch about apple's approval process.

To be fair, there's a similar issue for J2ME -- many current handsets
now require apps to be signed for full capabilities to be enabled.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 17:51 GMT
>>as opposed to the tight ties to verizon or another carrier that also
>>has their own limitations, sometimes more so?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>AT&T and Apple are no better, but the availability of 3rd party apps
>for the iPhone make it tolerable.  ...

Since you can run any unlocked and unbranded GSM phone with the proper
frequencies on any GSM carrier just by inserting your SIM card, it's
actually a non-issue for both AT&T and T-Mobile USA.  In addition, most
GSM phones can run J2ME apps, giving you a wealth of additional
capabilities (e.g., Gmail, Google Maps, Opera Mini, GlassPlayer, Skype).

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 23:22 GMT
> >>as opposed to the tight ties to verizon or another carrier that also
> >>has their own limitations, sometimes more so?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> GSM phones can run J2ME apps, giving you a wealth of additional
> capabilities (e.g., Gmail, Google Maps, Opera Mini, GlassPlayer, Skype).

This is a perfect illustration of how some people just really don't
understand what Apple is up to.

Can you run third-party apps, usually in the form of J2ME apps, on lots
of phones?

Yes.

Of course, most people who own such phones have no idea where to get
these apps, except perhaps for a couple of games their carriers will
sell them for $5. Most of these people have no idea what "J2ME" is,
don't even know they can run third-party apps on their phones, and
wouldn't have the slightest idea how to actually get such an app onto
their phone if you pointed them at a web site full of such apps.
Meanwhile, there's no particularly effective way for developers
(particularly small developers) to monetize their apps or to let people
discover them, some carriers deliberately restrict access to third-party
apps, cross-device compatibility is less than ideal, and the apps can't
take advantage of advanced hardware features because most handsets
haven't got them and J2ME APIs might not support them.

A certain type of person, more interested in spec sheets than reality,
looks and the iPhone, looks at the J2ME-enabled handsets, checks off the
"Runs third party apps" checkbox for both, and doesn't understand what
all those "Apple fanatics" are screeching about.

Now, of course, if you happen to be that type of person, you'll either
deny what I say above outright or use similar logic to try to argue that
parts of it aren't true (e.g. "Of course developers can monetize their
apps; they can sell them on their web sites"). This explanation is not
particularly intended to convince anyone who thinks along such lines of
anything, but more to creative a coherent narrative of what's occurring
for people who are slightly more capable of seeing the big picture.

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Steve Fenwick - 29 Jun 2009 17:02 GMT
> >> Whether the user is smart enough to distinguish between a free Wi-Fi
> >> YouTube download, and a potentially expensive 3G download, is subject
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> lack of a functional belt holster promotes the "wave it in everyone's
> face" mode.  Look at me... I have a smart phone, which makes me smart.

Jeff, seriously--no belt holster is what condemns a phone? I can't think
of anyone I know, iPhone user or other phone user (I use a 1st gen Razr)
who uses a belt holster. I don't use a headset/earpiece, so yes, I hold
it in my hand.

> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.  I
> actually believe that.  If you interrogate your friends and associates
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> should do the same".  Plenty of other dumb reasons can be extracted if
> you ask the right questions.  

I'd love to use a smartphone (iPhone, Pre, or other), but I have two
limitations: my SO uses AT&T, so we're stuck on that plan; I don't want
to pay the freight for an iPhone. So I stay with my Razr.

Steve

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Jeff Liebermann - 29 Jun 2009 17:28 GMT
>Jeff, seriously--no belt holster is what condemns a phone?

I'm not condemning the iPhone.  I'm just suggesting that there's room
for improvement.  There are belt holsters available, but I don't like
what I've seen.  They're either plastic frames, which are generally
not secure enough, or velcro sealed cloth/plastic/leather bags, which
are awkward to use.  I could sew my own holster, but prefer something
better.

>I can't think
>of anyone I know, iPhone user or other phone user (I use a 1st gen Razr)
>who uses a belt holster. I don't use a headset/earpiece, so yes, I hold
>it in my hand.

It's the price of being a nerd.  My belt looks like a Batman utility
belt.  Cell phone, PDA, flashlight, and pedometer.  I would use my
shirt pocket for an iPhone except that my shirt pocket is stuffed with
a pocket protector and eyeglasses.  I've resorted to carrying my iPod
Touch in my back pocket but would prefer to have it on my belt.
(Note:  If I go somewhere that requires looking respectable, I leave
all the junk in the car).

>I'd love to use a smartphone (iPhone, Pre, or other), but I have two
>limitations: my SO uses AT&T, so we're stuck on that plan; I don't want
>to pay the freight for an iPhone. So I stay with my Razr.

My solution is similar.  I'm using a variety of junk cell phones (each
with their own unique problems) and the PDA part of my Verizon XV6700.
I'll switch to the iPod Touch 2G as soon as I figure out how to sync
it on multiple computers without wiping all the data.  I wouldn't mind
an iPhone, but don't really need the 3G data plan.

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SMS - 07 Jul 2009 01:01 GMT
> Yep.  No sane person would buy an iPhone for legitimate reasons.  I
> actually believe that.  If you interrogate your friends and associates
> that purchased an iPhone, I think you'll find the motivation to be
> anything but productivity.

So you're saying that productivity is the only valid motivation or
legitimate reason?

The iPhone isn't a PDA. You can't run a lot of important (to many
people) applications on it. But the buyers most likely already know
that. They want a mobile web browser, phone, and music/video player all
in one.

If someone wanted a device to use for a lot of texting, to edit
documents or spread sheets, or to use while traveling outside their home
country with a prepaid SIM card, they wouldn't get an iPhone. But for
those that use it as an entertainment device and a phone, it's a pretty
good product.
Todd Allcock - 28 Jun 2009 21:35 GMT
> So that there's no mistake, you are expected to *ONLY* use your iPhone
> for:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> consider the possibility that the iPhone might be useful for other
> purposes.

But again, that goes to what I said earlier- make the ToS SO restrictive
that virtually everyone is in violation, and then you can kick off (only)
the high-data users for their "violations" by selectively applying it
when/where necessary.  it's brilliant, and doesn't require very tight
monitoring- just casual auditing of the highest users.

> This was recently added for the "benefit" of iPhone users:
>    If it is determined that you are using iPhone or other designated
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> So, do individual AT&T iPhone users purchase an Enterprise Data Plan
> so that they can legally pickup their office or business email?

Kinda sorta- the PDA plans have that same restriction.  Essentially it means
you don't have guaranteed access to corporate email like Exchange, Lotus
notes, etc. that might require funky ports besides standard POP, IMAP, or
SMTP ports.  I don't think AT&T currently employs port blocking, but I
believe they used to.  T-Mo REALLY used that until recently to handicap
lower priced rate plans.  Their "WAP" plan blocked all ports except email
(even HTTP and HTTPS ports 80 and 443!) and ran all WAP/HTTP/S traffic
through a proxy server on port 8080.  This effectively killed all "forbidden
uses"- no streaming, no Usenet, no P2P- the proxy server even blocked all
file downloads over 1MB.

>>Besides, I doubt the ToS prevents you from using non-app store apps, so a
>>jailbroken phone might be able to do P2P.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>    to strictly enforce these Terms,...
> That makes it easy to be arbitrary and selective.

Exactly- so as I said, the heavy users can get bounced for the "violation"
of streaming video instead of  the "allowed" abuse of an unlimted plan.  It
was far easier for Elliott Ness to bust the mobsters for tax evasion than
proving racketeering!

>>True, but the point is that as smartphones get smarter, they can do the
>>same things computers do.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> accessory, restaurant finder, and game machine.  I have yet to see a
> TV commercial showing a smartphone being used in a useful manner.

Those are iPhone ads.  I was talking about smartphones!  ;)

>>Perhaps, but again, it's probably more troble than it's worth.  Why waste
>>time or CPU cycles crunching and analysing the data used by a millions of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> never suggested that AT&T should or might be sniffing for tethering.
> However, I did suggest that it was possible.

I'm sure it is, it probably just isn't cost-effective or even necessary.

>>I suspect such data is
>>gathered more for statistical trend analysis, rather than individual
>>compliance.
>
> Yep.  The privacy policy states that such information may be gathered.

>>> Whether they do it correctly is another bad guess.  Probably not. Adam
>>> Savage of Mythbusters fame got an $11,000 bill from AT&T for allegedly
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It is a foreign country according to his data plan:

Of course.  I just have a hard time believing AT&T is paying Rogers anywhere
near $15/MB for roamers.  Why not have realistic data roaming rates set on a
per country basis, like international voice rates?  T-Mo has a $10/MB Canada
rate and $15/MB "everywhere else."  Somehow I doubt T-Mo is paying a
Canadian partner 2/3rds of what they pay a carrier in Estonia or Albania!

> <http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/plan-terms.jsp#iPhone>
>    International Roaming: Substantial charges may be incurred
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that's not what was meant, but that's the way I read it.  Perhaps AT&T
> could use a legal proof reader.

That is what it means: the iPhone is going to use data "by itself" without
you intentionally firing up Safari, Email, the app store, etc.  Even playing
games stored on the phone can use data if it's a "free" game that serves up
ads from the ad server.  If you're overseas and your iPhone (or frankly,
your Blackberry, WinMo device, etc.) is set to poll for email periodically,
as most are, and cellular data isn't disabled, you'll be staring down a huge
bill next month!  My wife and I easily each get 100MB/month of email alone.
A one week vacation could net 25MB each, or $375 in roaming data EACH.  The
legalese is supposed to warn people that just because they didn't open
Safari or the email program doesn't mean they didn't use any data.  Visual
Voicemail alone uses about 1KB per second of voicemail.  A two-minute 120KB
message received while you're in Canada costs nearly $2 to receive!

Being the untrusing sort, not only did I disable data on my WinMo phone and
wife's iPhone when we were in Mexico, I even edited and misspelled the
cellular data APN just in case some app didn't "obey" the settings!

>>So, at least with Sprint, relying on the phone finking is the primary
>>detection method,which is better than what they used before: a Sprint
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> about 5 MBytes per month.  iPhone users are substantially above that
> at about 30 MBytes per month and climbing (as of about 6 months ago).

Recently an AT&T spokesman told the USA Today iPhones average 400MB per
month, while other smartphones average 40-80.  It'd be pretty darn easy to
bell curve that data and target your high 1%, 5%, 10%, whatever.  Now that
tethering has been "leaked" it'd be easy to note the differences in, say,
July's data average this year vs. July's last year (to compare similar
months with lots of new iPhone users who might use more data initially until
the novelty wears off) to see if tethering is being "abused."

>>> Drivel:  What I think of mandatory data plans with smart phones:
>>> "48% of Americans Would Drop Mobile Data Service Completely"
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> along with the increasing data ARPU for all vendors.  If customers
> won't buy voluntarily, shove it down their throats.

What this might do, perhaps, is backfire and get users to go back to
separate devices like carry an iPod Touch or Palm PDA and a dumbphone to
save $30/month.

> Whether the user is smart enough to distinguish between a free Wi-Fi
> YouTube download, and a potentially expensive 3G download, is subject
> to speculation.  I've quizzed iPhone users about such things.  The
> fanatics know the difference.  The one's that buy iPhones for fashion
> statements or other dubious reasons, do not (even after I explain it).
> Just operating the iTunes application is a challenge for most.

True.  I used to use a Nokia Symbian-based 3620 that was (old) AT&T Wireless
branded (I used it unlocked on T-Mo.)  It used to drive me nuts that
everytime I opened the browser or tried to download IMAP email I got a
"Connect to cellular data (charges may apply)?" prompt.  (There was no way I
ever found, short of reflashing the phone with alternate software, to
disable the prompt!)  In hindsight, it was a neat feature- AT&T Wireless, at
the time, had no unlimited data plans (like T-Mo did.)  All plans were
pay-per-use or varying size MB "buckets," and the phone was set up to prompt
for confirmation ANY time it attempted to use cellular data.  If a
smartphone had a similar prompt system that anyone could easily activate
(perhaps a wizard in the initial setup that let you select "I don't have a
data plan" and configures defaults set for that eventuality.)

>>I think there's a huge market for a cellular data-less iPod Phone.
>
> Ummm.... It's called the iPod Touch.  I have a 2nd generation model.
> All the iPhone apps work, except those that require the GPS.  I use a
> junk cell phone for talking.

No, because the iPod Touch can't make phone calls!  You're forced to use a
"junk cell phone" to avoid a $30 data plan.  If AT&T didn't force you to buy
data you could just you an iPhone with cell data disabled, and have a
WiFi-only iPhone capable of making calls, and carry just one device.

> One huge advantage is that I can look at
> my schedule while yacking on the phone (and not using a BT ear thing).

True, but a "BT ear thing" is a much smaller device to carry than a "junk
cell phone."  I used to do the earpiece thing, but these days if I really
need to check my calendar or look at an email, I just turn the speakerphone
on briefly.  It works in all but the noisiest places.

> One feature that would be nice is to replicate the address book and
> contacts between the cell phone and iPod Touch directly, without
> requiring a double sync via computah.

If you're using your 6700 as the "junk phone" (I doubt it!), you could use
Google Mobile Sync as an ersatz Exchange server.  Google Mobile sync
"spoofs" EAS (Exchange Active Sync) which mobile devices like WinMo and
iPhone (and presumably the iPod Touch) see as an Exchange server.  (PCs
don't, however- you can't use Google to sync the PC with the phone/iPod via
Google's cloud server, but as long as the phones support EAS, like all WinMo
phones and the iPhone, you can cloud sync them with each other.)

Personally I use Funambol- it'll sync PCs, smartphones and dumbphones with a
cloud server, but it doesn't sync with the iPhone's calendar, only contacts.
Free, reliable, universal cross-platform sync is still a bit of a Holy
grail, unfortunately!

> One of the local McDonald's accidentally priced their "meal"
> combination of burger, fries, and drink higher than the individual
> components would have cost.  It wasn't much (about 10 cents as I
> recall).  It was about a month later before anyone noticed.  Think of
> it as "bundling", with an arithmetic challenged customer base.

LOL!
tlvp - 30 Jun 2009 09:43 GMT
>> >that's also vague. that does not say whether they actually can tell if
>> >someone is tethering and if they can, whether they are going to take
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> customer support line that'll talk you through rates and how to disable
> cellular data.

Indeed they do. But it's only free from a T-Mobile handset. If that handset
is dead-in-the-water, as happened to me a few years ago while in Australia,
it's very much a NON-free call from a local payphone to get them to restore
your roaming profile in the International HLR -- and NO, they didn't offer
to call me back.

In England, though, when the same HLR bug had my phone useless, my wife's
phone *was* working. And when I called their international toll-free line,
they indicated they'd have to be working on my case for 15-20 minutes, so
did I want to hold? or should they call me back? I let them call me back.

Little did I know that their call-back *would* appear on my next bill --
and NO, they were NOT about to credit me back the air-time and roaming
charges that call-back triggered. Or so said the first two agents I took
that matter up with upon my return home. A few days later, a third agent,
more sympathetic, perhaps, passed me on to her "supervisor", who initiated
a partial credit (in anytime minutes, of course, not cash :-) ).

> (They've always texted the int'l support number to foreign roamers, but the
> data cost warning is new..)

The data cost SMS reached me while I was abroad in April. Needlessly,
as my old grandfathered voice/data combo plan has always included
unlimited GPRS WAP data world-wide, and 20-cent outbound SMS messages
from outside T-Mobile (USA) territory.

>> ... [More on tethering - snipped] ...  

Cheers, -- tlvp
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ZnU - 27 Jun 2009 16:38 GMT
> >> >it's a violation of the terms of service which the customer willingly
> >> >signed.  at&t could incur a fine if they wanted to, but i doubt they
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> There are actually dead giveaways.

I seriously doubt they're actually doing analysis at the level necessary
to tell traffic generated by an iPhone apart from traffic generated by
tethered computer. While it's theoretically possible to do this sort of
thing, it's not trivial to do it for tens of millions of customers. And
why bother? It's far more effective to just monitor total data usage and
only pay closer attention to the real abusers.

> >plus, their accounting is very primitive - it tracks 1k blocks
> >as 1 second calls.  in other words, if you use 24k, you made a 24
> >second call.
>
> Not so.  You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 18:03 GMT
>> There are actually dead giveaways.
>
>I seriously doubt they're actually doing analysis at the level necessary
>to tell traffic generated by an iPhone apart from traffic generated by
>tethered computer. While it's theoretically possible to do this sort of
>thing, it's not trivial to do it for tens of millions of customers.

It's actually not hard -- the capability is built into the
infrastructure.

>And
>why bother? It's far more effective to just monitor total data usage and
>only pay closer attention to the real abusers.

That's only one part of the problem.  The other part of the problem is
lost revenue, and AT&T also cares about lost revenue.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

ZnU - 29 Jun 2009 21:51 GMT
> >> There are actually dead giveaways.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It's actually not hard -- the capability is built into the
> infrastructure.

Um... why is there an emerging market for high-priced hardware that can
do this kind of traffic analysis on extremely large volumes of data if
it's already supposedly a trivial feature of existing equipment?

> >And why bother? It's far more effective to just monitor total data
> >usage and only pay closer attention to the real abusers.
>
> That's only one part of the problem.  The other part of the problem
> is lost revenue, and AT&T also cares about lost revenue.

AT&T is also probably smart enough to do a cost/benefit analysis.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 20:02 GMT
> > it's not a violation unless a court case is won, so currently it's free.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> properly to get it right so they'll just let it slide until they can
> charge for it.

yes, just as i said... it's currently free...

> > zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
> > corporations, as it always has.
>
> nonsense.

you sound out of touch, that's all.
DevilsPGD - 27 Jun 2009 10:12 GMT
>zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
>corporations, as it always has.

huh?  The Mac community is a corporation-loyal as any others, just to a
different corporation.
David Moyer - 27 Jun 2009 18:13 GMT
> >zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
> >corporations, as it always has.
>
> huh?  The Mac community is a corporation-loyal as any others, just to a
> different corporation.

yeah, but apple has never had much of a corporate attitude, they mainly
focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the people" can
take place. nobody is loyal to "apple" per say, they are just enamored
by how their products make their lives more interesting, more powerful.
John Blutarsky - 27 Jun 2009 18:30 GMT
David Moyer <davmoy@world.com> wrote in news:4a46531c$0$89877$815e3792
@news.qwest.net:

>> >zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
>> >corporations, as it always has.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> take place. nobody is loyal to "apple" per say, they are just enamored
> by how their products make their lives more interesting, more powerful.

How does purposely limiting application selection give power "to the
people"?  Doesn't this demonstrate more of an attitude of "the people"
being too stupid to knwo what they want?

I would also argue that many people are loyal to Apple.  Simply witness the
blind fanaticism we are inundated with in the cellular groups.  People
defending all Apple products to the death, no matter how good or bad the
product is (Apple TV comes to mind).
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 27 Jun 2009 18:42 GMT
> I would also argue that many people are loyal to Apple.

In the same way that many are loyal to Honda.

In other words, I had one, it worked out very well, I got another, it
was easy to switch over to the second one and *it* worked very well, I
have a bunch of tools and a great support mechanism that makes it very
easy to own--what's not to like?  So I keep doing it.

I've been doing that for 21 years now with Macintosh computers, and see
no reason to change.  My entire family owns Macintosh computers.  There
are five Macs in my house alone.

I also own a Windows box, and I also run Windows as a VM inside my iMac.  
Why?  Because when I need a tool, I need the tool--I don't bark about
how "my dainty hands don't dare touch THAT kind of tool" or any such
crap.  That thinking is beyond me.
John Blutarsky - 27 Jun 2009 20:27 GMT
>> I would also argue that many people are loyal to Apple.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> about how "my dainty hands don't dare touch THAT kind of tool" or any
> such crap.  That thinking is beyond me.

And that's the way it should be.  You've found products that meet your
needs and that you are very happy with.  Based on what you just wrote, I
would expect you to recommend those products to others by relating your
experiences, not by blindly ignoring a product's shortcomings and putting
undue emphasis on meaningless or trivial features.

That approach is the opposite of the one employed by the typical Apple
fanboi.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 27 Jun 2009 21:09 GMT
> > I also own a Windows box, and I also run Windows as a VM inside my
> > iMac.  Why?  Because when I need a tool, I need the tool--I don't bark
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That approach is the opposite of the one employed by the typical Apple
> fanboi.

And that's what pisses me off about the fanbois--their vocal existence
taints me to the rest of the real world.  Everyone assumes I'm one of
them simply by association.
ZnU - 27 Jun 2009 23:40 GMT
> > > I also own a Windows box, and I also run Windows as a VM inside my
> > > iMac.  Why?  Because when I need a tool, I need the tool--I don't bark
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> taints me to the rest of the real world.  Everyone assumes I'm one of
> them simply by association.

Oxford AKA "David Moyer" (and various others) is very nearly in a class
by himself, when it comes to utterly unthinking support of Apple. He
somehow manages to be a troll even while advocating Macs in
comp.sys.mac.advocacy. He is best ignored.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Blutarsky - 28 Jun 2009 00:19 GMT
>> > > I also own a Windows box, and I also run Windows as a VM inside
>> > > my iMac.  Why?  Because when I need a tool, I need the tool--I
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Apple. He somehow manages to be a troll even while advocating Macs in
> comp.sys.mac.advocacy. He is best ignored.

While outrageous in his approach and nature, Oxford is more of an Apple
fanboi caricature than anything really unique.
News - 28 Jun 2009 00:32 GMT
>>>>> I also own a Windows box, and I also run Windows as a VM inside
>>>>> my iMac.  Why?  Because when I need a tool, I need the tool--I
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> While outrageous in his approach and nature, Oxford is more of an Apple
> fanboi caricature than anything really unique.

A poster chilf for fanboism.
ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 00:52 GMT
> >> > > I also own a Windows box, and I also run Windows as a VM inside
> >> > > my iMac.  Why?  Because when I need a tool, I need the tool--I
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> While outrageous in his approach and nature, Oxford is more of an Apple
> fanboi caricature than anything really unique.

Err... that doesn't quite make sense. If he's a caricature, he's an
exaggerated form, not a typical example. Personally, hanging around in a
lot of Mac forums, I've never encountered anything quite like him. Many
of Apple's biggest fans are also the most likely to criticize Apple for
failing to live up to their expectations; see virtually any Mac forum
after an anticipated Apple announcement. Oxford, on the other hand, is
utterly incapable of criticizing Apple.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Blutarsky - 28 Jun 2009 01:21 GMT
ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in news:znu-9CD492.19523427062009
@Port80.Individual.NET:

>> >> > > I also own a Windows box, and I also run Windows as a VM inside
>> >> > > my iMac.  Why?  Because when I need a tool, I need the tool--I
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Err... that doesn't quite make sense. If he's a caricature, he's an
> exaggerated form, not a typical example.

He has plenty of company.  He is simply the most outrageous of the bunch.
David Moyer - 28 Jun 2009 02:49 GMT
> > yeah, but apple has never had much of a corporate attitude, they mainly
> > focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the people" can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> people"?  Doesn't this demonstrate more of an attitude of "the people"
> being too stupid to knwo what they want?

how have they limited selection? there are over 50,000 apps, the most of
any phone based device. that's a cornucopia for the user.

> I would also argue that many people are loyal to Apple.  Simply witness the
> blind fanaticism we are inundated with in the cellular groups.  People
> defending all Apple products to the death, no matter how good or bad the
> product is (Apple TV comes to mind).

they're just quality freaks, when people discover a very well built
product and are happy, they tend to tell other people... what is wrong
with that?

yes, the AppleTV is excellent, do you have one yet?
John Blutarsky - 28 Jun 2009 03:12 GMT
>> > yeah, but apple has never had much of a corporate attitude, they
>> > mainly focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> how have they limited selection?

By requiring developers to go through an application process and not
approving all submitted applications.

> there are over 50,000 apps, the most
> of any phone based device. that's a cornucopia for the user.

How many unique functions are represented in that 50,000?  

>> I would also argue that many people are loyal to Apple.  Simply
>> witness the blind fanaticism we are inundated with in the cellular
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> product and are happy, they tend to tell other people... what is wrong
> with that?

Your statement talks of form, but not function.  The best built, prettiest
product ever produced is worthless if it has no functionality.

> yes, the AppleTV is excellent, do you have one yet?

No- I found an old Yugo and bought it instead.  It was a much better use of
my money.
DevilsPGD - 28 Jun 2009 11:40 GMT
>>> > yeah, but apple has never had much of a corporate attitude, they
>>> > mainly focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>By requiring developers to go through an application process and not
>approving all submitted applications.

Lets also remember the features that aren't specifically prohibited, but
that Apple has required removed before app approval.

Sync In A Blink was required to remove a feature that would allow the
initial contact list sync to use the remote source as authoritative.

The PodCasting debacle is an obvious example.

Heck, the 4-week approval process (admittedly down to 3-week now)
leaving users stuck with incompatible-with-the-current-iPhone-OS
versions of apps when developers have already finished a release that
resolves issues.
News - 28 Jun 2009 11:45 GMT
>>>>> yeah, but apple has never had much of a corporate attitude, they
>>>>> mainly focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> versions of apps when developers have already finished a release that
> resolves issues.

Any who willing put up with that regime are Stockholm Syndrome victims.
nospam - 28 Jun 2009 17:33 GMT
> Heck, the 4-week approval process (admittedly down to 3-week now)
> leaving users stuck with incompatible-with-the-current-iPhone-OS
> versions of apps when developers have already finished a release that
> resolves issues.

98% are approved within a week and they approve stupid stuff like
farting apps and some even slip through, such as the baby shaker app.
they also reject a few that should have been approved.

<http://www.macworld.com/article/139435/2009/03/iphone_stats.html>
DevilsPGD - 29 Jun 2009 02:34 GMT
>> Heck, the 4-week approval process (admittedly down to 3-week now)
>> leaving users stuck with incompatible-with-the-current-iPhone-OS
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
><http://www.macworld.com/article/139435/2009/03/iphone_stats.html>

98% may be approved within a week on average, but right now they're over
3 weeks behind.
Mark Crispin - 27 Jun 2009 20:16 GMT
> yeah, but apple has never had much of a corporate attitude, they mainly
> focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the people" can
> take place.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA!

Apple does "corporate" to levels that Microsoft or IBM couldn't even dream
of.

> nobody is loyal to "apple" per say, they are just enamored
> by how their products make their lives more interesting, more powerful.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA!

History proves that Apple fanboys will suck on whatever Apple whips out,
no matter how ridiculously crappy.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 27 Jun 2009 21:07 GMT
> History proves that Apple fanboys will suck on whatever Apple whips out,
> no matter how ridiculously crappy.

Fanbois will, but not every user of Apple equipment will.

I use Macintosh computers.  Been doing it for years.  But iPhone?  Nope.  
No need for it.  AppleTV?  WTF, Apple?  What did you think your audience
was for that, anyway?

Don't confuse the fanbois with people who just happen to have had great
experiences with the actual Macintosh computer and operating system
itself.
DevilsPGD - 27 Jun 2009 22:35 GMT
>AppleTV?  WTF, Apple?  What did you think your audience
>was for that, anyway?

Apple fanbois that buy anything Apple makes.
Mark Crispin - 28 Jun 2009 02:01 GMT
>> History proves that Apple fanboys will suck on whatever Apple whips out,
>> no matter how ridiculously crappy.
> Fanbois will, but not every user of Apple equipment will.

I agree.

> I use Macintosh computers.  Been doing it for years.  But iPhone?  Nope.
> No need for it.  AppleTV?  WTF, Apple?  What did you think your audience
> was for that, anyway?

My sentiments exactly.

I've used Macintosh for over 20 years; 7 in all, of which I still own 5
and still use 2.  I've gone through at least as many Windows machines.
I've lost track of the number Linux machines.

I use the tool that is most suitable for the task at hand.

I share your bewilderment over AppleTV.  That's a product that should have
been put out of its misery years ago.

> Don't confuse the fanbois with people who just happen to have had great
> experiences with the actual Macintosh computer and operating system
> itself.

I don't.

For some purposes, Mac is the most suitable platform.  For other purposes,
Mac sucks.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 02:30 GMT
> >> History proves that Apple fanboys will suck on whatever Apple whips out,
> >> no matter how ridiculously crappy.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I share your bewilderment over AppleTV.  That's a product that should have
> been put out of its misery years ago.

Here's the justification for the existence of the Apple TV.

It seems plausible that 10 or 20 years from now, virtually all video
content, including the content people watch on TVs in their living
rooms, will be on-demand content from the Internet, not content
distributed via broadcast-style models in which a) everyone receives all
the available content in real-time and b) the content selection is
controlled by the network operator.

As of 2009, only a relatively small fraction of video content is
delivered to the living room this way.

So we've got this very large shift in the distribution of video content
that we can be reasonably sure will happen in the future. But nobody
knows exactly where the tipping point will be.

When that tipping point arrives, Apple doesn't want to be caught with
its pants down, with no product to sell. It's worth it for them (given
the relatively small R&D investment required) to keep the Apple TV
around so they'll be in a stronger starting position when this shift
starts to really pick up speed.

> > Don't confuse the fanbois with people who just happen to have had great
> > experiences with the actual Macintosh computer and operating system
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> For some purposes, Mac is the most suitable platform.  For other purposes,
> Mac sucks.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Elmo P. Shagnasty - 28 Jun 2009 05:03 GMT
> Here's the justification for the existence of the Apple TV.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the available content in real-time and b) the content selection is
> controlled by the network operator.

I agree.  So far so good.

> As of 2009, only a relatively small fraction of video content is
> delivered to the living room this way.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> around so they'll be in a stronger starting position when this shift
> starts to really pick up speed.

Yeah, but their model depends on people paying two bucks to watch one
Daily Show.

WTF, Apple?
ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 05:40 GMT
> > Here's the justification for the existence of the Apple TV.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> WTF, Apple?

Content providers seem to have decided to be obnoxious to Apple,
probably on the basis that providing content at lower cost to other
distributors will help undermine Apple's substantial market power in
digital distribution. We'll have to see how this develops long-term.

Apple does have one very substantial advantage over other online
distributors: they have the easiest access to the world's most popular
mobile media devices. (Though the fact that the iPhone and iPod Touch
support third-party apps does allow other distributors to gain access to
those devices as well, unlike with more specialized iPod models.)

Apple is probably hoping that as content providers become more
comfortable with digital distribution (and as new content providers
emerge that are "native" to the digital world), they will be able to get
access to content under better terms.

I'd say they should just buy Netflix (it's not like they couldn't afford
it), but I suspect that would just spook content providers who have cut
deals with Netflix.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Sandman - 28 Jun 2009 10:47 GMT
> > I share your bewilderment over AppleTV.  That's a product that should have
> > been put out of its misery years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> around so they'll be in a stronger starting position when this shift
> starts to really pick up speed.

I totally get that, but I'm not confident that the general broadcast
model of this new era will center around quicktime/h.264/whatever
Apple pushes and I don't think Apple will accept anything else.

In short, Apple need to *lead* this, in selling movies and TV-shows
over the air, and also distribute live TV (of some sort, because not
everyone will use on-demand scheduling, some just want to swap
channels).

While Apple supports mp3 with the iPod, they did use the - at the
time, unusual - AAC format. That's just an example with Apple using a
format for content that is a standards format but not compatible with
the current players. Now, it didn't take long for AAC to creep in

Signature

Sandman[.net]

ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 17:23 GMT
> > > I share your bewilderment over AppleTV.  That's a product that should
> > > have
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> model of this new era will center around quicktime/h.264/whatever
> Apple pushes and I don't think Apple will accept anything else.

Err... I don't see what else they're going to use. We've already seen
YouTube convert its content to H.264 in part for easier delivery to
mobile devices, where the format is widely supported. Once you move past
browser-based Flash video players, your choices for video formats are
basically 1) H.264 or 2) Microsoft's stuff.

What's actually probably going to happen in this market is that content
owners will license their content to multiple distributors who will
distribute it using whatever technologies they want to use.

> In short, Apple need to *lead* this, in selling movies and TV-shows
> over the air, and also distribute live TV (of some sort, because not
> everyone will use on-demand scheduling, some just want to swap
> channels).

You might want live streaming for news and sports, but I see no reason
why you'd ever distribute most content via live streaming.

> While Apple supports mp3 with the iPod, they did use the - at the
> time, unusual - AAC format. That's just an example with Apple using a
> format for content that is a standards format but not compatible with
> the current players. Now, it didn't take long for AAC to creep in

What "current players" are we talking about here?

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Sandman - 30 Jun 2009 08:42 GMT
> > I totally get that, but I'm not confident that the general broadcast
> > model of this new era will center around quicktime/h.264/whatever
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> browser-based Flash video players, your choices for video formats are
> basically 1) H.264 or 2) Microsoft's stuff.

Hulu's using Flash, netflix is using silverlight, Joost is using
something of their own (as far as I know), so is Spotify. CinemaNow is
using WMP, and so are lots of others.

That's what I'm saying, the current landscape isn't h.264/wmp. And the
current landscape is already growing strong, and none is even remotely
compatible with Apple.

> What's actually probably going to happen in this market is that content
> owners will license their content to multiple distributors who will
> distribute it using whatever technologies they want to use.

Then we're stuck with the same problem again, with the availability
for a specific codec (say, h.264) is dependant on the deals the
distributor can strike with the content owners.

> > In short, Apple need to *lead* this, in selling movies and TV-shows
> > over the air, and also distribute live TV (of some sort, because not
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You might want live streaming for news and sports, but I see no reason
> why you'd ever distribute most content via live streaming.

I'm just saying that the general consumer likes TV, ie. being "fed"
something that someone else has selected. podcasting and rss feeds are
all fine and dandy, but in the end, most of us like the idea of having
a "program" to listen/watch to as well, if for no other reason than
our curiosity that isn't being satisfied with self-selected content.

> > While Apple supports mp3 with the iPod, they did use the - at the
> > time, unusual - AAC format. That's just an example with Apple using a
> > format for content that is a standards format but not compatible with
> > the current players. Now, it didn't take long for AAC to creep in
>
> What "current players" are we talking about here?

Sorry, maybe bad wording. I meant the current players at the time.
I.e. Rio and stuff. I believe the PSP was the first portable to
support AAC out of the box, but I may be mistaken.

Signature

Sandman[.net]

ZnU - 30 Jun 2009 16:36 GMT
> > > I totally get that, but I'm not confident that the general broadcast
> > > model of this new era will center around quicktime/h.264/whatever
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> current landscape is already growing strong, and none is even remotely
> compatible with Apple.

The web-based Flash approach is inherently unsuitable for the living
room, though. When watching on a TV rather than a computer, nobody wants
to have to visit a particular web site depending on the specific show
they want, log in, and interact with a Flash player that's best
interacted with via a mouse, not a remote.

As Internet-based living room delivery gets serious, this approach is
going to give way to the approach taken by the Apple TV and the Netflix
set top devices, where content is all available from within one coherent
native interface.

Conceivably this interface could draw on multiple content sources (see
Boxee), but it's still going to be playing H.264/WMP video streams via a
native interface. If there were a sufficiently well developed standard
for content sources, content providers could make it easy for devices
developed by others to access their content.

> > What's actually probably going to happen in this market is that content
> > owners will license their content to multiple distributors who will
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for a specific codec (say, h.264) is dependant on the deals the
> distributor can strike with the content owners.

The solution to this is simply for content owners to license content to
all serious distributors under reasonable and uniform terms.

> > > In short, Apple need to *lead* this, in selling movies and TV-shows
> > > over the air, and also distribute live TV (of some sort, because not
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> a "program" to listen/watch to as well, if for no other reason than
> our curiosity that isn't being satisfied with self-selected content.

Frankly, I think this pattern of media consumption is likely to die off
fairly quickly with the ubiquitous availability of on-demand content.

[snip]

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 30 Jun 2009 17:29 GMT
> The web-based Flash approach is inherently unsuitable for the living
> room, though. When watching on a TV rather than a computer, nobody wants
> to have to visit a particular web site depending on the specific show
> they want, log in, and interact with a Flash player that's best
> interacted with via a mouse, not a remote.

True, but I suspect as IPTV gets more popular, we'll see set-top boxes with
browser modes that handle that.  The remote has come a long way from the 5
button (power/chan up/down/vol up/down) days.  A remote with a trackball, or
that doubles as a presentation mouse (moving the remote itself around in the
air moves the cursor) solves it nicely.

> As Internet-based living room delivery gets serious, this approach is
> going to give way to the approach taken by the Apple TV and the Netflix
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> for content sources, content providers could make it easy for devices
> developed by others to access their content.

While menu-driven "on demand" content from particular providers will be the
main source of content, users will still want to jump to YouTube, or Google
video, etc, so I doubt they'll forgo the browser paradigm so easily.  Sure,
you could "app" YouTube, like on the iPhone, but that's problematic for web
sites that are the flavor of the moment.

>> I'm just saying that the general consumer likes TV, ie. being "fed"
>> something that someone else has selected. podcasting and rss feeds are
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Frankly, I think this pattern of media consumption is likely to die off
> fairly quickly with the ubiquitous availability of on-demand content.

Maybe, but it's more likely, IMO, that TV will just adapt.  Just as TV
didn't kill off the movies, on-demand won't kill TV, but might radically
change it just as TV changed radio.  Radio repurposed itself as a portable
entertainment device when TV replaced it in the family living room, and
changed from long-form programming, like drama and comedy radio plays, to
short-form information (news, traffic, weather, sports) and music.   IPTV
will likely kill off broadcast TV as a source of movies (just as pay cable
TV movie channels killed off over-the-air broadcast TV as a source for
theatrical movies.)  But content producers like multiple income streams like
the typical movie scenario: theater > second run theater > hotel PPV > DVD >
Pay TV PPV > Pay TV movie channel > basic cable channel.  In each step of
the process, the studio is paid again for the same film.

Similarly, original "exclusive" TV series drama and comedy will likely run
over a live "broadcast" (which might be an internet stream, someday, as
opposed to over-the-air) but shown "live" as opposed to on-demand, chock
full of ads, just as today, before being archived to an on-demand scenario.
It's part of our zeitgeist to chat over the watercooler about the latest
episode of whatever- the "buzz" is both a social event and a viral
promotional tool for the content provider.  Sure, we'll talk about the funny
"monkey driving a scooter" video on YouTube, but no one plans to block an
hour and stay home next Thursday night to catch the next installment like
they currenty do with the lastest episode of "Survivor."

Besides, iTunes has given us a glimpse of the future that might be the only
reason TV will remained relatively unchanged- paying a buck or two to catch
a missed episode of a program we missed is certainly a fair bargain for a
"convenience fee" but would bankrupt us if I paid a buck for every show I or
any member of my family watched in a month's time!  Revenue drives content.
Broadcast TV derives revenue from advertisers, IPTV needs similar revenue to
incent producers, or it'll be limited to recycling content from other
mediums, like television.  IPTV is too dependent on "TV" to kill it.  It
needs to foster a symbiotic relationship rather than a parasitic one.
ZnU - 30 Jun 2009 18:04 GMT
> > The web-based Flash approach is inherently unsuitable for the living
> > room, though. When watching on a TV rather than a computer, nobody wants
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> that doubles as a presentation mouse (moving the remote itself around in the
> air moves the cursor) solves it nicely.

This still basically sucks. And it doesn't solve the problems inherent
to having to visit different web sites to get different content. If I
watch five shows regularly, and they're spread out across three
different sites, I have to go check all of those sites for new content,
instead of everything just flowing into a single unified interface. I
can't queue things up across multiple sites, I have to set playback
preferences multiple times.... The whole thing is basically a mess.

> > As Internet-based living room delivery gets serious, this approach is
> > going to give way to the approach taken by the Apple TV and the Netflix
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> you could "app" YouTube, like on the iPhone, but that's problematic for web
> sites that are the flavor of the moment.

If there were actually some sort of "content source" standard, anyone
could directly send content to these sorts of devices. Content wouldn't
be tied to specific web-based interfaces and native interfaces wouldn't
be tied to specific providers. That's where we want want the market to
end up. Of course, device makers, distributors, and content providers
are currently all playing games, rather than establishing standards, to
try to maintain as much control as they can.

[snip]

> Similarly, original "exclusive" TV series drama and comedy will likely run
> over a live "broadcast" (which might be an internet stream, someday, as
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Thursday night to catch the next installment like they currenty do
> with the lastest episode of "Survivor."

For popular shows that people actively follow, many people will start
streaming them seconds or minutes after new episode streams become
available, creating  the same "social event" effect. There's no
additional benefit to sending such shows out with a broadcast model,
where you *have* to start watching at a specific time and can't pause.
The next-day water cooler discussions aren't going to be substantially
impacted by the fact that some people saw the show a few minuets (or
even a few hours) earlier than others. In point of fact, DVRs have
already created this flexibility, and it doesn't seem to have robbed us
of anything valuable.

What I might expect to see is that recently posted first-tier on-demand
content has a quantity of ads similar to broadcast TV, while older
on-demand content has fewer ads, the way most programming on Hulu
currently does. But a lot of that will depend on how the ad market works
out.

> Besides, iTunes has given us a glimpse of the future that might be
> the only reason TV will remained relatively unchanged- paying a buck
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> television.  IPTV is too dependent on "TV" to kill it.  It needs to
> foster a symbiotic relationship rather than a parasitic one.

On-demand content still allows for ads, and subscription based models
are certainly possible as well. Typical rates for a prime time ad are
$20 per thousand viewers. This works out to $0.02/viewer per 30 second
spot, and there are perhaps 30 such spots in an hour long TV program,
which means $0.60/viewer. This is not an amount of revenue that is
terribly difficult to generate from subscription fees. Or, of course,
from advertising, which can be targeted more precisely, and thus
probably command *higher* fees, on the Internet.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 30 Jun 2009 19:10 GMT
>> True, but I suspect as IPTV gets more popular, we'll see set-top boxes
>> with
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> can't queue things up across multiple sites, I have to set playback
> preferences multiple times.... The whole thing is basically a mess.

Agreed, but that could be primarily used as a "fill in" for content your
provider hasn't licensed, much like I still have a 10-year-old VCR hooked to
the TV for the few movies I never rebought, or aren't available, on DVD.

>> Similarly, original "exclusive" TV series drama and comedy will likely
>> run
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> already created this flexibility, and it doesn't seem to have robbed us
> of anything valuable.

Assuming a future where everything scales properly, you might be right.  But
one-way radio transmission is simply far more efficient than the CBS
streaming server crashing when 70 million viewers all try to tune into the
Survivor finale.  Ask anyone who tried watching the Obama inauguration live
via streaming how well that went at times!

>> Besides, iTunes has given us a glimpse of the future that might be
>> the only reason TV will remained relatively unchanged- paying a buck
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> from advertising, which can be targeted more precisely, and thus
> probably command *higher* fees, on the Internet.

Perhaps, but no new form of media introduced since radio has completely
replaced its predecessors, so I doubt the internet will "kill" TV- just
change it.
ZnU - 30 Jun 2009 21:18 GMT
> >> True, but I suspect as IPTV gets more popular, we'll see set-top boxes
> >> with
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> Survivor finale.  Ask anyone who tried watching the Obama inauguration live
> via streaming how well that went at times!

But of course one central server operated by the content owner isn't the
model that's being proposed. Rather, the content would be made available
to Apple, Netflix, Microsoft, Sony, Hulu, Amazon, and whoever else wants
to get into the online distribution market. They would package it up in
the appropriate formats for theirs services, and make it available to
their users.

Hulu alone is already serving up more than 10 million on-demand streams
a day.

(And don't believe any of the nonsense from ISPs about Internet
infrastructure being unable to handle this sort of thing. It's just a
flimsy pretext to get rid of net neutrality so they can charge twice for
every bit they deliver.)

> >> Besides, iTunes has given us a glimpse of the future that might be
> >> the only reason TV will remained relatively unchanged- paying a buck
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> replaced its predecessors, so I doubt the internet will "kill" TV- just
> change it.

I wouldn't say that moving to an all on-demand world (except live
events) would constitute killing TV.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Walter Bushell - 01 Jul 2009 16:05 GMT
> This still basically sucks. And it doesn't solve the problems inherent
> to having to visit different web sites to get different content. If I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> can't queue things up across multiple sites, I have to set playback
> preferences multiple times.... The whole thing is basically a mess.

Hey, your TV shows are spread across several channels anyway. A similar
solution could be implemented easily. A web TV guide in HTML format,
that allows automatic programming of selected shows just like eyeTV
provides and Helen's your aunt. Apple provides this thing called
AppleScript that can nicely tie the pieces together.
ZnU - 02 Jul 2009 14:34 GMT
> > This still basically sucks. And it doesn't solve the problems inherent
> > to having to visit different web sites to get different content. If I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> provides and Helen's your aunt. Apple provides this thing called
> AppleScript that can nicely tie the pieces together.

There are apps that attempt to interface with various content sources
despite the lack of any official standard way to do this.

They tend to a) need special-case code for each site they interface
with, and b) break frequently, sometimes because content distributors
are deliberately trying to break them.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Navas - 30 Jun 2009 17:40 GMT
>> That's what I'm saying, the current landscape isn't h.264/wmp. And the
>> current landscape is already growing strong, and none is even remotely
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>they want, log in, and interact with a Flash player that's best
>interacted with via a mouse, not a remote.

ZeeVee: <http://www.zeevee.com/>

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Sandman - 30 Jun 2009 18:55 GMT
> > Hulu's using Flash, netflix is using silverlight, Joost is using
> > something of their own (as far as I know), so is Spotify. CinemaNow is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> they want, log in, and interact with a Flash player that's best
> interacted with via a mouse, not a remote.

The SWF file is just the front end, it's being fed with a FLV file,
Obviously anyone using this format would adapt the front end to the
consumers device.

> As Internet-based living room delivery gets serious, this approach is
> going to give way to the approach taken by the Apple TV and the Netflix
> set top devices, where content is all available from within one coherent
> native interface.

Well, for all intents and purposes, that native interface could very
well be written entirely in Flash.

> Conceivably this interface could draw on multiple content sources (see
> Boxee), but it's still going to be playing H.264/WMP video streams via a
> native interface. If there were a sufficiently well developed standard
> for content sources, content providers could make it easy for devices
> developed by others to access their content.

I still don't see how you arrive at "it's still going to be playing
h.264/WMP" for the future when that is far off from how the landscape
is today.

I totally agree with you that the Apple approach (native interface,
streamed with open standards) is the best way to go, end by far the
prettiest. But we both know that best and pretty isn't usually how
these things get determined. Money buys the cream and the best deals
gets the content, regardless of the streaming technique. Just look how
deeply entrenched Real still is with live radio on the net. It's
scary, and that's practially the worst case of technology you could
use for streaming.

> > > What's actually probably going to happen in this market is that content
> > > owners will license their content to multiple distributors who will
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The solution to this is simply for content owners to license content to
> all serious distributors under reasonable and uniform terms.

Agreed that that would be the solution, but I don't see it happening,
if history is any guide. :P

Maybe I'm pessimistic. But the content owners sure doesn't seem to be
friendly towards Apple at all, so I just don't see how much Apple can
direct this in a "good" way.

> > > > In short, Apple need to *lead* this, in selling movies and TV-shows
> > > > over the air, and also distribute live TV (of some sort, because not
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Frankly, I think this pattern of media consumption is likely to die off
> fairly quickly with the ubiquitous availability of on-demand content.

Hmmm, well I suppose we'll agree to disagree on that point, then.

Signature

Sandman[.net]

ZnU - 30 Jun 2009 20:56 GMT
> > > Hulu's using Flash, netflix is using silverlight, Joost is using
> > > something of their own (as far as I know), so is Spotify. CinemaNow is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Obviously anyone using this format would adapt the front end to the
> consumers device.

Sure. But at that point you can just lump it in with H.264 and WMP,
because it's just another video codec.

Look, there are potentially four roles here:

1) The content owner.
2) The distributor.
3) The device interface provider.
4) The device maker.

The problem essentially comes when #2 tries to also be #3, delivering
interface along with content. Generally, #4 should be #3.

Whether the entity doing #3 and #4 is also doing #2 depends on whether
or not standards can be established that allow devices to source content
from third-party sources. Ideally this can happen, and it will be
possible to create devices which can play any Internet-based video
content made available for such purposes within their native interfaces,
the same way you can use iTunes to manage pretty much any audio file
regardless of where it came from.

If this can't happen, then the easiest route is just to make device
makers the distributors as well, and let them package up content for
their devices.

[snip]

> > Conceivably this interface could draw on multiple content sources (see
> > Boxee), but it's still going to be playing H.264/WMP video streams via a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> h.264/WMP" for the future when that is far off from how the landscape
> is today.

It's not far off the landscape today at all. It's the way practically
every system actually designed for the living room currently works.

[snip]

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Sandman - 28 Jun 2009 10:30 GMT
In article
<alpine.OSX.2.00.0906271734340.10452@hsinghsing.panda.com>,

> > I use Macintosh computers.  Been doing it for years.  But iPhone?  Nope.
> > No need for it.  AppleTV?  WTF, Apple?  What did you think your audience
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I share your bewilderment over AppleTV.  That's a product that should have
> been put out of its misery years ago.

I really love the ATV, use it daily. It's like an iPod connected to
your TV, with all your music, all your movies right there. Sure, some
things are missing, but it's still immensly useful for me.

Signature

Sandman[.net]

Elmo P. Shagnasty - 28 Jun 2009 14:30 GMT
> I really love the ATV, use it daily. It's like an iPod connected to
> your TV, with all your music, all your movies right there.

All what movies?

Oh, the ones I bought from the iTunes store.

Not.

I repeat:  WTF, Apple?  Did you really EXPECT people to buy individual
shows for a couple bucks each?  Really?
Lloyd Parsons - 28 Jun 2009 17:18 GMT
> > I really love the ATV, use it daily. It's like an iPod connected to
> > your TV, with all your music, all your movies right there.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I repeat:  WTF, Apple?  Did you really EXPECT people to buy individual
> shows for a couple bucks each?  Really?

Well people are in fact doing just that, so I guess Apple was right.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 28 Jun 2009 18:08 GMT
> > I repeat:  WTF, Apple?  Did you really EXPECT people to buy individual
> > shows for a couple bucks each?  Really?
>
> Well people are in fact doing just that, so I guess Apple was right.

Really?

How many of them?

People are buying Zunes, too; does that mean Microsoft was right?
ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 17:24 GMT
> > I really love the ATV, use it daily. It's like an iPod connected to
> > your TV, with all your music, all your movies right there.
>
> All what movies?
>
> Oh, the ones I bought from the iTunes store.

Well, you can blame the DMCA for the fact that you can't rip your DVD
into iTunes as easily as you can your CDs.

> Not.
>
> I repeat:  WTF, Apple?  Did you really EXPECT people to buy individual
> shows for a couple bucks each?  Really?

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

MuahMan - 28 Jun 2009 18:14 GMT
On Jun 28, 9:30 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com>
wrote:
> In article <mr-AD4779.11304128062...@News.Individual.NET>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I repeat:  WTF, Apple?  Did you really EXPECT people to buy individual
> shows for a couple bucks each?  Really?

You can get the Apple TV at Costco for like 20 bucks. They have pallet
after pallet of those sitting in there collecting dust. Don't think
the thing even has an HDMI output. LOL
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 28 Jun 2009 19:04 GMT
In article
<a7c31d46-9ce2-42fa-bd2d-13ba0dbb5b1d@l12g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,

> > I repeat:  WTF, Apple?  Did you really EXPECT people to buy individual
> > shows for a couple bucks each?  Really?
>
> You can get the Apple TV at Costco for like 20 bucks. They have pallet
> after pallet of those sitting in there collecting dust. Don't think
> the thing even has an HDMI output. LOL

Exactly like the fanbois are those who would trash something not out of
any actual knowledge of what they're trashing, but out of some deep
seated sense of inferiority that they *might* be missing something.

AppleTV isn't twenty bucks anywhere.

And yes, it has HDMI output.

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/apple_tv?mco=MTE3M
jA

It seems that the fanboi thing isn't a straight line; rather, it's a
circle.  The fanbois and the anti-fanbois aren't a universe apart;
instead, they're immediately adjacent to each other.
ZnU - 28 Jun 2009 19:44 GMT
> In article
> <a7c31d46-9ce2-42fa-bd2d-13ba0dbb5b1d@l12g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/apple_tv?mco=MTE3M
> jA

MuahMan's chief debating tactic has always been "argument by making sh.t 
up".

> It seems that the fanboi thing isn't a straight line; rather, it's a
> circle.  The fanbois and the anti-fanbois aren't a universe apart;
> instead, they're immediately adjacent to each other.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. The some phenomenon exists in politics.
Extremists always have far more in common with each other -- even when
they're on opposite sides -- than they do with reasonable people.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Elmo P. Shagnasty - 28 Jun 2009 22:15 GMT
> > It seems that the fanboi thing isn't a straight line; rather, it's a
> > circle.  The fanbois and the anti-fanbois aren't a universe apart;
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Extremists always have far more in common with each other -- even when
> they're on opposite sides -- than they do with reasonable people.

as Arkady Darrell said, "A circle has no end."
Sandman - 30 Jun 2009 08:43 GMT
> > I really love the ATV, use it daily. It's like an iPod connected to
> > your TV, with all your music, all your movies right there.
>
> All what movies?

Yep! It's great.

> Oh, the ones I bought from the iTunes store.

Actually, I'm in Sweden, so I can't buy movies from the iTunes store :(

> Not.
>
> I repeat:  WTF, Apple?  Did you really EXPECT people to buy individual
> shows for a couple bucks each?  Really?

I repeat: I really love the ATV, use it daily. It's like an iPod
connected to your TV, with all your music, all your movies right there.

Signature

Sandman[.net]

Fa-groon - 28 Jun 2009 21:23 GMT
> In article
> <alpine.OSX.2.00.0906271734340.10452@hsinghsing.panda.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> your TV, with all your music, all your movies right there. Sure, some
> things are missing, but it's still immensly useful for me.

I feel the same way. My ATV is one of the best entertainment purchases I've
ever made.
News - 28 Jun 2009 21:26 GMT
> My ATV is one of the best entertainment purchases I've ever made.

Such a blinkered, sheltered life you fanbois lead.
John Navas - 29 Jun 2009 18:04 GMT
>> >zero luck is involved, it's just the mac community standing against
>> >corporations, as it always has.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the people" can
>take place. ...

That is too funny!

Do you really think anyone but you believes that?

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Mark Crispin - 29 Jun 2009 18:59 GMT
> On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:13:00 -0600, David Moyer <davmoy@world.com> wrote
>> yeah, but apple has never had much of a corporate attitude, they mainly
>> focus on disrupting established markets so power "to the people" can
>> take place. ...
> That is too funny!
> Do you really think anyone but you believes that?

If Apple believed in "power to the people" they wouldn't be lobbying the
US government to make it a crime to jailbreak iToys.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 19:43 GMT
>> Here's MY rumor, Oxy- you'll pay $30/month extra to tether, just like
>> smartphone users, else the tethering app will deny access.  My guess is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> currently it's $0.00. what you are not yet understanding is iPhone users
> come from the pure computer world, where there are always workarounds.

I realize there are workarounds.  I've been tethering PDAs and PCs to cell
phones since the days when they used adapters with RJ-11 jacks to connect
the PC to.

My point is that when AT&T locks down the system, they'll block tethering
via the "official" phone tethering menu method unless you subscribe to a
tethering plan.  The jailbreakers have been tethering right along, and will
continue to under the radar.

> the Cell networks will have to bend to us, not the other way around. We
> control this market now... as ATT is learning.

AT&T is learning that the appropriate bright shiny object can be more locked
down than any phone on their network yet can still can milk a customer for
an average of $90+ a month instead of the average $55 everyone else is
paying.  You're really showing them, Oxy!  If you want AT&T and the cell
networks to "learn" something- use an iPod Touch!
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 19:57 GMT
>My point is that when AT&T locks down the system, they'll block tethering
>via the "official" phone tethering menu method unless you subscribe to a
>tethering plan.  The jailbreakers have been tethering right along, and will
>continue to under the radar.

There are some dead giveaways AT&T can use to detect and police
unauthorized tethering.  Whether it chooses to do so will probably
depend on the amount of abuse.

>AT&T is learning that the appropriate bright shiny object can be more locked
>down than any phone on their network yet can still can milk a customer for
>an average of $90+ a month instead of the average $55 everyone else is
>paying.  You're really showing them, Oxy!  If you want AT&T and the cell
>networks to "learn" something- use an iPod Touch!

It's probably more like $70-80 for customers with a data package.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 21:03 GMT
>>My point is that when AT&T locks down the system, they'll block tethering
>>via the "official" phone tethering menu method unless you subscribe to a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> unauthorized tethering.  Whether it chooses to do so will probably
> depend on the amount of abuse.

Generally, with software support from the phone (the phone "squealing" to
the MO that it's tethering) operators have to make educated guesses based on
the types and amounts of data transfered.  With smartphones that's much
harder- they are perfectly capable of using most any type of data- VoIP,
streaming, peer to peer filesharing, NNTP- virtually anything a laptop
itself would use, and in large enough quantities that being absolutely
certain if a phone or a computer were doing the usage would be nearly
impossible.

>>AT&T is learning that the appropriate bright shiny object can be more
>>locked
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It's probably more like $70-80 for customers with a data package.

Since iPhone users don't get a choice, that's immaterial.  The current
cachet of the iPhone allows AT&T to force a $30 data add-on that they might
not be able to get away with on other phones.

I was pulling old data out of my head.  A quick check of the 1Q 2009 report
at http://www.att.com/gen/press-room?pid=4800&cdvn=news&newsarticleid=26752 
says AT&T postpaid ARPU is now over $59, and iPhone users' ARPU is 1.6x
higher, or about $95.

Not too shabby.

I'll have to apologize to T-Mo later for dragging their ARPU down...  ;)
nospam - 26 Jun 2009 21:08 GMT
> > There are some dead giveaways AT&T can use to detect and police
> > unauthorized tethering.  Whether it chooses to do so will probably
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> certain if a phone or a computer were doing the usage would be nearly
> impossible.

yep.  what's the difference between an iphone app that does nntp, voip,
ssh or whatever protocol and a tethered mac or windows app that does
exactly the same thing?
Mark Crispin - 26 Jun 2009 23:29 GMT
> yep.  what's the difference between an iphone app that does nntp, voip,
> ssh or whatever protocol and a tethered mac or windows app that does
> exactly the same thing?

One easy way is to analyze the IP traffic to determine the kernel
implementation that generated it.  Datagrams from a kernel other than iToy
are a dead giveaway of tethering.  The really good tools can distinguish
between variants, e.g., Darwin in Mac OS X vs. iToy, or even different
release version of the kernel.

Another is that the device itself tattles.

This is all ancient technology, and there are counter-measures if you
jailbreak; but by itself these are enough to catch the vast majority of
illicit tethering.

There are other means to clamp down on illicit tethering that are far more
sophisticated than these.

Now, with this all said, I agree with those who feel that there is no
moral difference between tethering and other data use.  Entirely too many
service providers oversell their capacity and use such terms as
"unlimited", then get upset when they are taken at their word.  Their
business model is based upon selling data plans in the assumption that the
vast majority of the customers will only use a pittance of what they are
allocated, and thus rake in effectively $1/MB or more.  iPhone stretches
this model, hence mandatory iPhone plans and aggressive pushing of WiFi --
you won't hear Verizon pushing people to use WiFi! -- and tethering makes
the situation worse.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 23:58 GMT
>> yep.  what's the difference between an iphone app that does nntp, voip,
>> ssh or whatever protocol and a tethered mac or windows app that does
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> you won't hear Verizon pushing people to use WiFi! -- and tethering makes
> the situation worse.

Agreed.  The reality is that only a few people "abuse" data, so building
sophisticated mechanisms to catch them probably just aren't economical.
It's easier to use loosely-worded "fair use" policies and reserve the right
to terminate the "abusers'" accounts, or create a TOS so tight that
virtually everyone will break it, (like Verizon's old one that limited
internet use to web-browsing, e-mail, and intranet only- watching a YouTube
video was probably a violation!) and then you can choose only to enforce it
against those you actually want to get rid of.  (According to our records,
Mr. Jones, among the 234 GB of data you used on your "unlimited" plan in
April, we noticed you made a 12-second VoIP call.  VoIP is against our TOS.
I'm sorry, it was nice having you as a customer, but we're closing your
account...)

I still think T-Mo has the right idea, (borrowed from the satellite ISPs
like Hughes)- allow "unlimited" usage, but throttle bandwidth after you hit
a certaint point.  With T-Mo, it's 10GB/month.  Once you hit 10GB, they
"reserve the right" to throttle your speed to 50kbps for the rest of that
month.  I'm not sure they've actually done it to any of the 17 people using
their 3G network yet, of course, but they "reserve the right..."  Thismakes
it all so much easier to administer without caring HOW the customer uses the
data.  Tether, streaming, VoIP, torrents, whatever- you get to "abuse" the
first 10GB, then you're poking along in the slow lane until next month.

Those who need high speed data all month will learn to nurse their data
"drink", rather than gulp it.
nospam - 27 Jun 2009 17:14 GMT
> > yep.  what's the difference between an iphone app that does nntp, voip,
> > ssh or whatever protocol and a tethered mac or windows app that does
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> between variants, e.g., Darwin in Mac OS X vs. iToy, or even different
> release version of the kernel.

i highly doubt at&t is going to that extreme, and that's hardly what
one would call a 'dead giveaway.'
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 20:01 GMT
> > currently it's $0.00. what you are not yet understanding is iPhone users
> > come from the pure computer world, where there are always workarounds.
>
> I realize there are workarounds.  I've been tethering PDAs and PCs to cell
> phones since the days when they used adapters with RJ-11 jacks to connect
> the PC to.

of course...

> My point is that when AT&T locks down the system, they'll block tethering
> via the "official" phone tethering menu method unless you subscribe to a
> tethering plan.  The jailbreakers have been tethering right along, and will
> continue to under the radar.

yes, but now the non-jailbreakers have joined the party and there is
nothing ATT can do about it.

> > the Cell networks will have to bend to us, not the other way around. We
> > control this market now... as ATT is learning.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> paying.  You're really showing them, Oxy!  If you want AT&T and the cell
> networks to "learn" something- use an iPod Touch!

the average plan for a smartphone isn't $55, it's more around $70...
yes, of course in time everything will be free wifi, so it's little
concern to me.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 20:03 GMT
>> My point is that when AT&T locks down the system, they'll block tethering
>> via the "official" phone tethering menu method unless you subscribe to a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>yes, but now the non-jailbreakers have joined the party and there is
>nothing ATT can do about it.

On the contrary, as other naive customers of AT&T have learned the hard
way.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 21:33 GMT
>> My point is that when AT&T locks down the system, they'll block tethering
>> via the "official" phone tethering menu method unless you subscribe to a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> yes, but now the non-jailbreakers have joined the party and there is
> nothing ATT can do about it.

You're deluding yourself.  AT&T could certainly "do something about it" if
they chose to.  Right now, they're probably happy to let it slide since it
takes the pressure off "not being ready" for tethering, acts as a sort of
beta test, since only the most fervent and desperate will bother kludging
this, allowing AT&T to compile usage data on the effect of heavier than
average users and lets AT&T later treat this a "free preview."

>> > the Cell networks will have to bend to us, not the other way around. We
>> > control this market now... as ATT is learning.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> the average plan for a smartphone isn't $55, it's more around $70...

$55 (actually $59- I was off a bit) is the average revenue for all AT&T
wireless users.

iPhone users pay the same price as voice/data smartphone users- they have
the same priced data plan.  The small  difference in ARPU between iPhones
and smartphones is other phone users have the choice to take voice-only or
data-only plans.  The higher ARPU iPhone users pay isn't "magic"- it's what
happens when you forcibly bundle services.  Those few just wanting an "iPod
Phone" get to pay $30 for an unneeded data plab, and those that just want
the iPhone as a data device get to pay $35 for unneeded voice service (AT&T
offers a $35 unlimited data-only plan for smartphones.)  If AT&T wants to
brag average iPhone is $100 they can just forcibly add texting to new
iPhones users.  They'll pay.

> yes, of course in time everything will be free wifi, so it's little
> concern to me.

Since you started singing that song two years ago, I have even a harder time
finding "free" WiFi outside of libraries and coffee shops than I did in
2007.  Back then, of the six or seven WiFi nets visible from my house, three
were open.  Now we're up up to nine- all closed.

Where is this "revolution" you're expecting, and if it were coming,
shouldn't we see even a _little_ progress in that area, rather than it going
the other way?  There's less free "borrowed" (stolen) WiFi available than
ever, and muni-WiFi is still stagnant or imploding.   Consumers have
wised-up and protected their wireless connections far more often than not.
(Or, more likely, it's the one-two punch that ISPs aren't as negligent as
they used to be and don't leave their customers' wireless networks open by
default any longer like they used to, and WiFi devices include setting up
encryption as part of their installation "wizards" rather than defaulting to
open and telling you to consult the manual if you're interested in securing
them after installation.)
Mark Crispin - 26 Jun 2009 23:38 GMT
> You're deluding yourself.  AT&T could certainly "do something about it" if
> they chose to.  Right now, they're probably happy to let it slide since it
> takes the pressure off "not being ready" for tethering, acts as a sort of
> beta test, since only the most fervent and desperate will bother kludging
> this, allowing AT&T to compile usage data on the effect of heavier than
> average users and lets AT&T later treat this a "free preview."

A very small price for AT&T to pay for some very valuable market research.

>> yes, of course in time everything will be free wifi, so it's little
>> concern to me.
> Since you started singing that song two years ago, I have even a harder time
> finding "free" WiFi outside of libraries and coffee shops than I did in 2007.
> Back then, of the six or seven WiFi nets visible from my house, three were
> open.  Now we're up up to nine- all closed.

Careful - Oxford/David Moyer and the other silly fanboys will accuse you
of living in a "technologically backwards area"!

Open WiFi networks were ubiquitous in Seattle 8 years ago; you could go
almost anywhere and get on the Internet for free.  Those days are long
past.  There are many more WiFi networks, but most are hidden and those
which aren't are encrypted and often also MAC address filtered.

Anyone who thinks that the USA is going to be covered with free WiFi
networks is living in a fantasy world.  There may well be national public
WiFi networks, but they won't be free.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 23:57 GMT
>Anyone who thinks that the USA is going to be covered with free WiFi
>networks is living in a fantasy world.  There may well be national public
>WiFi networks, but they won't be free.

Yep.  That model is fundamentally broken.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

ed - 27 Jun 2009 06:59 GMT
> "David Moyer" <dav...@world.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> Since you started singing that song two years ago, I have even a harder time
> finding "free" WiFi outside of libraries and coffee shops than I did in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> shouldn't we see even a _little_ progress in that area, rather than it going
> the other way?

it's going the same way as the song he sang about verizon and
blackberry dying "quarter by quarter" and att and iphone taking over
all their business.

<snip>
Tim Murray - 27 Jun 2009 05:17 GMT
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
  the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]

> the average plan for a smartphone isn't $55, it's more around $70...
> yes, of course in time everything will be free wifi, so it's little
> concern to me.

Yeah, the WiFi on the interstate is excellent.
John - 27 Jun 2009 05:27 GMT
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
>   the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yeah, the WiFi on the interstate is excellent.

Why does iPhone make up such a high percentage?   Because it is the only
phone on the market that has a REAL web browser.  The others just have cheap
sh.t.
News - 27 Jun 2009 13:36 GMT
>> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
>>   the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> phone on the market that has a REAL web browser.  The others just have
> cheap sh.t.

"Real browser" on diminutive screen = SVE    "sh.t Viewing Experience"
MuahMan - 28 Jun 2009 01:23 GMT
> >> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> >>   the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> "Real browser" on diminutive screen = SVE    "sh.t Viewing Experience"

Try going to a Flash site. Real browser my a.s.
Chance Furlong - 28 Jun 2009 01:48 GMT
In article
<9e80dc52-7e5a-4a35-acb3-ab8a8c50a312@g19g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,

> Try going to a Flash site. Real browser, my a.s.

This is no place to brag about your a.s.
MuahMan - 28 Jun 2009 01:51 GMT
> In article
> <9e80dc52-7e5a-4a35-acb3-ab8a8c50a...@g19g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > Try going to a Flash site. Real browser, my a.s.
>
> This is no place to brag about your a.s.

Imagine. Jimmy Lee Jr turns everything into some sort of gay fetish.
Come on out of the closet boy.
Jeff Liebermann - 27 Jun 2009 18:13 GMT
>Why does iPhone make up such a high percentage?   Because it is the only
>phone on the market that has a REAL web browser.  The others just have cheap
>sh.t.

Windoze Mobile based PDA phones, such as my Verizon XV6700, have an
Internet Exporer based browser.  There are also 3rd party browsers
available for Windoze Mobile, such as Opera, Skyfire, Thunderhawk, and
Mach5.
http://www.opera.com
http://www.skyfire.com
http://www.bitstream.com/wireless/
http://www.fuzemobility.com/mach5-web-browser-preview/

"Fix for iPhone Safari Crashes"
http://www.iphonehacks.com/2008/11/safaricrash-fix.html
Looking at the user comments, it seems that most thing that Safari
crashes quite often.  

"Cheap sh.t"?  I've had more crashes with Safari on my iPod Touch than
any of the others on my XV6700.  Things got better with firmware
2.2.1.  I just got 3.0 so I can't tell if there's been any changes.  

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

News - 27 Jun 2009 13:37 GMT
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
>    the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yeah, the WiFi on the interstate is excellent.

And the handoffs so seamless...
tlvp - 30 Jun 2009 09:15 GMT
>> > we'll see, the rumor is there will be no additional charge below the 5GB
>> > cap.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> well, it's currently free to have tethering on your iphone, so that
> should remain the same.

That "so" is a non sequitur, alas. After all, it's currently free to maintain
a Yahoo GeoCities site, but that's *not* going to "remain the same" -- Yahoo
have already predicted free GeoCities sites will be disappearing in the Fall,
and urge that one either transfer one's pages elsewhere or upgrade to a paid
AT&T/Yahoo GeoCities hosting plan.

> yes, the iPhone nano is still a ways off, but obviously that will happen
> in time.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> the Cell networks will have to bend to us, not the other way around. We
> control this market now... as ATT is learning.

Usenet users, likewise, "come from the pure computer world," but that hasn't
stopped at&t from deciding to shut down all the NNTP servers, access to which
used to be part of their ISP services package. Worldnet, Bellsouth, SBCglobal,
none of 'em will let you post (or gather) your news to (or from) their feeds
any more. So whose bending in that scenario?

Cheers, -- tlvp

Signature

Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP

News - 26 Jun 2009 12:32 GMT
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
>    the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> AT&T tethers with other phones now.

> I think they're just figuring out a way
> to soak users for more money.

That's the most likely turn of events.  Pay up, fanbois!
Tim Murray - 26 Jun 2009 04:45 GMT
> so why does apple tell you it's att's fault that the iphone doesn't do
> tethering, ?  :P

They don't tell you "it doesn't do tethering".
Tim Murray - 26 Jun 2009 04:06 GMT
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
  the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]

>> Not exactly;  fanbois are paving themselves into a corner.
>
> said the Punchcard Operator to the Guy sitting in front of a Terminal in
> 1969 :)

And when the terrorists knock out our all-digital world, the terminal guy
will ask, "can I borrow your keypunch and card reader?"
David Moyer - 25 Jun 2009 21:53 GMT
> >Congrats everyone!
>
> Why?  Is this some sort of mission?

isn't revolutionizing society always been the goal of tech geeks? yep!
so it sounds like you are out of phase with no contribution to make.
John Navas - 25 Jun 2009 21:55 GMT
>> >Congrats everyone!
>>
>> Why?  Is this some sort of mission?
>
>isn't revolutionizing society always been the goal of tech geeks? yep!
>so it sounds like you are out of phase with no contribution to make.

Only by your standard.  LOL

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 01:13 GMT
> The iPhone continues to take over the smartphone market, it has now
> taken 69% of all smartphone traffic, which ironically is getting close
> to iPod share...

According to AdMob, a company that inserts ads into websites and apps, yes.

> In February it covered 51% of the pie. By April it had grown to 59%. And
> by Thursday morning, when AdMob released the May edition of its U.S.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> <http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/06/25/iphone-share-of-u-s-smartphone-t
raffic-hits-69/
>

Interestingly, if you read the actual reports instead of bloggers'
third-hand coverage of them
<http://metrics.admob.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/admob-mobile-metrics-april-09.pdf>,
you'll notice, buried in the methodology, AdMob tells us some interesting
things (this is from April's, so the numbers are slightly lower than May's):

"* The iPhone OS had 8% market share of handset sales in 2008, but generated
43%
share of mobile Web requests in April 2009. Ad requests from applications
contributed
to this heavy usage."
"* Android also generated a higher percentage of mobile Web requests than
its share
of handsets sold. While Android had less than 1% of smartphones sold in
2008, it
generated 3% of mobile Web usage. Ad requests from applications contributed
to this
heavy usage."

And...

"Note: AdMob serves ads into both iPhone and Android applications which are
responsible for a SIGNIFICANT PORTION [emphasis mine] of their overall ad
requests."

So, by amazing coincidence, the only platforms that had more mobile web
"traffic" (traffic=requests for AdMob advertising) than their market share
were the two platforms that developers can embed AdMob ads into
applications.  My wife plays a bunch of free games on her iPhone that
constantly serve up ads.  Nice to know that's "mobile web usage."

But, that's the "mobile web+app" category.  You're mostly bragging about the
percentage of HTML browsing, Oxy.  That one is comes from a different
source, "Net Applications" and is disclaimered thusly:

"Net Applications collects mobile browsing data only
from mobile devices that render HTML pages and Javascript. Visits to WAP
pages
are not included."

And, interestingly, tied for second place was a category called "other",
which Net Applications tells us "Other includes Java ME."  Presumably
(although this is just a guess- Net Apps plays their methodology close to
the vest) Java ME-based browsers, that don't "fink" the phone make/model/OS
would get lumped in here.  This would really bump Blackberries- most 'berry
users I know use Java browsers like Opera Mini instead of the default
Blackberry browser.

So, what we've discovered, is that phones with full HTML browsers (like
iPhones and Android) that default to "full" HTML sites use more HTML than
phones that default to mobile/WAP sites.  Imagine that!

So, in effect, what they've really "discovered" was that iPhone OS users
received the majority of AdMob's mobile advertising, and view far more HTML
pages.

Interesting stuff though, if you poke around.  An interesting stat was that
24% of mobile ad requests in April were over WiFi, and "the Top 5 WiFi
devices were the iPhone, iPod touch, Sony PSP, HTC Dream, and HTC Dash..."
So, even those "heavy traffic generating" iPhone OS users seem to do a
significant amount of browsing over WiFi rather than put up with AT&T's 3G
network!

Surprising to me, was despite their ubiquity, the total HTML usage stats for
all mobile devices combined, including the iPhone/iPod Touch, is still under
1% of web browsing.  I would've guessed that between the increase in uptake
of smart devices, and mobile phones acting as many folks only "computer" in
emerging markets that we'd see the total break 1% by now.

> Congrats everyone!

Enjoy.  What'll you discover next?  TV viewers watch more TV advertising
than book readers?
News - 26 Jun 2009 01:19 GMT
>> The iPhone continues to take over the smartphone market, it has now
>> taken 69% of all smartphone traffic, which ironically is getting close
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> Enjoy.  What'll you discover next?  TV viewers watch more TV advertising
> than book readers?

And that iToy users are suckers, a target rich environment, for online
ad placement and exploits.  Enjoy your ethereal status, fanbois!
David Moyer - 26 Jun 2009 02:01 GMT
> And that iToy users are suckers, a target rich environment, for online
> ad placement and exploits.  Enjoy your ethereal status, fanbois!

the iphone, safari and the apple community doesn't allow that type of
behavior.
News - 26 Jun 2009 02:13 GMT
>> And that iToy users are suckers, a target rich environment, for online
>> ad placement and exploits.  Enjoy your ethereal status, fanbois!
>
> the iphone, safari and the apple community doesn't allow that type of
> behavior.

Mobile metrics don't lie, fanboi.  You're suckers and don't even know it
or you're classical Stockholm Syndrome victims, probably a mix of both.

http://metrics.admob.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/admob-mobile-metrics-april-09.pdf
Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 02:49 GMT
>> So, what we've discovered, is that phones with full HTML browsers (like
>> iPhones and Android) that default to "full" HTML sites use more HTML than
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> And that iToy users are suckers, a target rich environment, for online ad
> placement and exploits.  Enjoy your ethereal status, fanbois!

It's hard to blame the "fanbois" for the hand they're dealt.  They (at least
in the US) get unlimited data and a phone that defaults to full size web
pages instead of mobile XHTML/WAP pages.

What I miss on the iPhone browser (and maybe it's hidden in a setting
somewhere and I just haven't found it) is a "mobile view" setting like most
mobile HTML browsers offer, that use multiple user agents depending on the
browser's current mode setting to request either mobile or full websites.
Sometimes I want the "real" web experience, but usually I'd rather have a
quick-loading mobile/WAP formatted site designed for a small screen if one's
available.

Regardless of Safari Mobile's rendering abilities, (which are quite good for
a mobile browser), pinching and spreading while surfing is for the birds,
and simpler web pages are just more efficient and easier to read on a small
screen.  This probably explains the popularity of iPhone apps that reformat
web content into easier to read forms, like USA Today's app that presents
the headline stories from the USA Today site in an email/RSS feed reader
type fashion.
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 05:10 GMT
>> And that iToy users are suckers, a target rich environment, for online ad
>> placement and exploits.  Enjoy your ethereal status, fanbois!
>
>It's hard to blame the "fanbois" for the hand they're dealt.  They (at least
>in the US) get unlimited data and a phone that defaults to full size web
>pages instead of mobile XHTML/WAP pages.

Most reasonably current handsets actually reformat standard Web for the
small screen.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Todd Allcock - 26 Jun 2009 05:26 GMT
>>> And that iToy users are suckers, a target rich environment, for online
>>> ad
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Most reasonably current handsets actually reformat standard Web for the
> small screen.

Yes, if there's no mobile page of that particular site, and the
"reformatting" is often far less than successful on sites with frames, or
other funky formatting.

Websites with mobile versions typically serve up the mobile version based on
the handset's user agent, so the handset doesn't have to reformat anything.
Most smartphone browsers (Opera Mobile, Opera Mini, Netfront, Skyfire, IE
Mobile 6,) allow you to select whether the user agent will report the device
as a mobile device, or a desktop PC, which is important for websites with no
manual override.  (YouTube, or the BBC, for example, let you toggle between
mobile and desktop versions by clicking a link on the site.  Some sites
don't, and simply follow the UA.)
John Navas - 26 Jun 2009 06:15 GMT
>>>It's hard to blame the "fanbois" for the hand they're dealt.  They (at
>>>least
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>"reformatting" is often far less than successful on sites with frames, or
>other funky formatting.

Actually works pretty well most of the time with better handsets.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Cyrus Afzali - 30 Jun 2009 03:25 GMT
>The iPhone continues to take over the smartphone market, it has now
>taken 69% of all smartphone traffic, which ironically is getting close
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Congrats everyone!

Let's just boil this down and get real. You're talking about a phone
available on ONE carrier in the U.S. Granted, it's the largest single
carrier, but just one. In the first quarter of this year, for
instance, the company only activated 1.6 million iPhones.

In contrast, RIMM has a 55 percent share of the TOTAL smartphone
market. Long story short, I'm not sure your numbers have legs.

What you left out:

"Some caveats are in order. This is just one company’s view of the
mobile Web — albeit the view of world’s largest supplier of mobile
ads, serving 6.3 billion banner and text ads per month. And it’s only
a snapshot of the smartphones on the U.S. portion of the AdMob network
— although 47.6% of AdMob’s traffic comes from the U.S. and 37.3% of
that comes from smartphones.

Still, what it suggests is that Apple’s domination of the smartphone
market — the only part of the cellphone market that has continued to
grow in the face of the recession, according to Gartner Research — is
accelerating."

You Apple guys just never can tell the whole story....
Mark Crispin - 30 Jun 2009 05:35 GMT
> Let's just boil this down and get real. You're talking about a phone
> available on ONE carrier in the U.S. Granted, it's the largest single
> carrier, but just one.

AT&T is not the largest carrier in the USA.  Verizon is.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Cyrus Afzali - 30 Jun 2009 06:08 GMT
>> Let's just boil this down and get real. You're talking about a phone
>> available on ONE carrier in the U.S. Granted, it's the largest single
>> carrier, but just one.
>
>AT&T is not the largest carrier in the USA.  Verizon is.

True enough. What I meant to clarify was it's the largest carrier with
a network that will work with the iPhone.

Still, this stuff being peddled by iPhone fanatics is a bit nuts. I
love my iPod and think iTunes is a great program. But even there, I
think there are some flaws. Apple's default ear buds for iPods are
crap.
nospam - 30 Jun 2009 06:17 GMT
> > Let's just boil this down and get real. You're talking about a phone
> > available on ONE carrier in the U.S. Granted, it's the largest single
> > carrier, but just one.
>
> AT&T is not the largest carrier in the USA.  Verizon is.

although they are close, at&t has more subscribers and higher revenue
than verizon:
<http://www.entangledparticles.com/ep/2009/02/index.html>

on the other hand, verizon has better coverage than at&t.
John Navas - 30 Jun 2009 06:32 GMT
>on the other hand, verizon has better coverage than at&t.

Not so.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do fans keep making excuses for it?

Todd Allcock - 30 Jun 2009 18:58 GMT
>> > Let's just boil this down and get real. You're talking about a phone
>> > available on ONE carrier in the U.S. Granted, it's the largest single
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> than verizon:
> <http://www.entangledparticles.com/ep/2009/02/index.html>

That was back in February... A lot can happen in a few months!

Verizon took the lead because of the acquision of Alltel's 13 million
subscribers,
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/042709-verizon-suscriber-lead.html,
just as AT&T became the leader with the merger of Cingular and (old) AT&T
Wireless a few years ago.
 
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