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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / ATT Wireless / May 2010

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iPad Design Criteria Explain Why the iPad is the Way it is.

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Ira - 01 Feb 2010 20:43 GMT
There’s been a lot of talk recently about the Apple iPad. I thought
that I’d explain to everyone the reasons for the iPad’s design
issues.  The design criteria for the iPad were laid out by a select
marketing team, including “he who must not be named.” There was very
little room for compromise.  There were completely obvious design
criteria, and some that were not so obvious.

Some of the criteria were:

-Do not impact sales of the Macintosh product line (or as they said,
this is an iPad, not a MacPad).

-Drive sales of more content, applications, music, videos, and books.

-Become the eBook reader of choice, destroying the Kindle, the Sony
reader, and any other potential entrants into that market.

-Make it impossible to run mainstream operating systems on the
platform, including OS-X, Linux, and Windows (the CPU choice
guarantees this).

-Maintain Apple-like profit margins (no pathetic netbook margins).

-Maintain complete control over the applications that can be
installed, like the iPhone.

-Leverage the success of the iPhone applications base.

-No connectivity to non-Apple external peripherals that could turn the
device into a vertical market platform.

-Battery life like an iPod, not like a MacBook.

-Sub 800 grams.

-No stylus.

-No handwriting recognition.

-No USB ports, no memory card slots, no ports at all other than the
standard dock connector (the “connectivity kit” is a misnomer since it
only allows the device to read memory cards and USB sticks, it does
not provide a general purpose USB port or SD card slot).

-Minimize data usage on the 3G network, as a condition of receiving
preferential 3G data pricing (this included limiting web browsing
capability by not allowing Flash or Java, not including a camera, and
not allowing tethering). However all this may change once the 3G and
4G networks are able to handle the data load (and they’ll change for
the iPhone as well). A camera in a future model is virtual certainty.

-No multi-tasking of 3rd party applications (the reasons for this were
to not impact performance, battery life, and 3G data usage, i.e. they
don’t want people streaming online radio stations in the background
the whole day). No surprise considering the iPhone has the same
restriction.

-Sub $500 starting price.

The inevitable Apple bashing over the iPad’s design specifications
began minutes after it was announced, and most of it was uniformed
drivel from those that had no knowledge of the design process. Apple
fanbois had an excuse for everything that was left out, and Apple
bashers had a reason, usually wrong, as to why certain features were
missing. What people have to realize is that there are valid reasons
for every single design decision made by Apple, even though some of
the decisions make some people very unhappy. Some design issues are
cost related, some are reliability related, some are related to future
revenue streams from selling content, some are related to not causing
excessive 3G data usage, some are human factors related, some are EMI
related.

There have been a lot of jokes about the name of the product. Apple
was well aware of the Mad TV iPad spoof, and they knew that there
would be snide references to feminine hygiene products. They also knew
that the jokes about the name would generate a lot of free publicity,
and that ultimately the name would have no effect on sales. The bigger
problem they have with the iPad name is that they don’t own the iPad
trademark in many countries, including the U.S.. But they had the same
issue with the iPhone (Cisco owned the trademark) and they were able
to come to a satisfactory agreement to obtain the trademark.

The iPad is likely going to be a huge success. Apple knows how to sell
this sort of device. The low cost limited and unlimited 3G data plans
from AT&T, and the capability as an eBook reader, are big selling
points that netbooks don’t have. Apple tends to be what’s called a
“fast follower” when it comes to new product categories. They don’t
invent new technologies (i.e. the personal computer, the GUI, the
mouse, the digital music player, the smart phone, the eBook reader,
the multimedia tablet were not invented by Apple) but they know how to
take other companies’ ideas and create compelling products from the
other companies’ failures.

Apple was especially wise to not get into the netbook business.
Netbooks are a low-margin business which affects sales of higher cost
laptops. No one except the low cost Asian suppliers like Asus, MSI,
and Lenovo really want to be in the netbook business at all, but
companies like HP, Dell, and Toshiba feel obligated to not ignore the
huge netbook market. Steve Jobs is not the only CEO to make
disparaging remarks about netbooks. Even Michael Dell puts down
netbooks, and his company sells them.

It will be interesting to see if the iPad can be jailbroken as easily
as the iPhone. My gut tells me that Apple has taken extraordinary
measures to keep that from happening.

Choose carefully,

Ira
© 2010 Ira J. Schechtman. Ira J. Schechtman is a technology expert
specializing in smart phones. Contact him at
iraDOTjDOTschecht...@gmail.com (replace DOT with a period).
Michelle Steiner - 01 Feb 2010 21:08 GMT
In article
<640d11a4-03ea-4f2e-b96a-c790004cba69@s36g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,

> Some of the criteria were:

How do you know this?  Were you on the design team?  Do you have a source
who was on that team?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but some of those criteria do not ring
true with me.

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KDT - 01 Feb 2010 21:36 GMT
No connectivity to external devices?  The iPhone SDK already allows
third party devices to interface with the dock connector .

No streaming music in the background?  Any music stream that can
stream via Safari can already stream in the background.
Larry - 02 Feb 2010 09:45 GMT
KDT <scarface_74@yahoo.com> wrote in news:4f858d00-7fa5-4f50-8b6f-
bd228a0f7aee@n33g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:

> No connectivity to external devices?  The iPhone SDK already allows
> third party devices to interface with the dock connector .

A fanboi spewed this nonsense while standing right in front of a
wifi/bluetooth enabled, really nice HP photo injet printer at BestBuy.

"Show me a picture, any picture.", I asked.  He whipped out a picture in no
time onto the little screen.  "Print it here!", I said, pointing to the HP
loaded with ink and paper.

Of course, it wouldn't over wifi or bluetooth as it won't connect to
devices like the nice HP printer.

"You're so smart!", he accurately observed.  "You print something and show
me."  I whipped out the nasty old N800 Linux tablet, paired with the
printer in a couple of seconds and printed a full-blown, Apple webpage,
COMPLETE with the Flash logo Apple puts on them....in living colour, of
course....(c;]

He couldn't even render Apple's own webpage.  It redirected him to one of
those AppleWAP simple pages iPhones display.

I followed that demo with printing a picture, a PDF page, the home
screen....and to top it off a picture from my Motorola sellphone camera
stored on the phone's external memory card.....over Bluetooth from the
phone to the tablet to the printer....pretty cool, actually.

He didn't call me a name like Michelle does.  He was speechless.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

SMS - 02 Feb 2010 13:03 GMT
> KDT <scarface_74@yahoo.com> wrote in news:4f858d00-7fa5-4f50-8b6f-
> bd228a0f7aee@n33g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Of course, it wouldn't over wifi or bluetooth as it won't connect to
> devices like the nice HP printer.

The Linux tablet is small form factor computer. The iPhone is a smart
phone. Big difference. I don't know of any smart phones that can print
directly to a Bluetooth or WiFi printer. Droid doesn't. Of course back
in the olden days I was printing directly from a Palm Pilot over IR to
an HP laser printer.

It's often very useful to be able to print or transfer directly to a
printer from a handheld device, or at least to an SD card which can hen
be inserted in the printer. Hopefully this capability will be added to
the iPhone/Touch/iPad. There's no reason I can think of why they would
want to restrict this, they probably just haven't finished the
programming yet. Remember it took them a long time for the Bluetooth
profile for Advanced Audio Distribution. No point holding up the release
of the product for something that can easily be added later, plus it
makes people happy to get new functionality in future OS upgrades.
Fa-groon - 02 Feb 2010 16:24 GMT
>> KDT <scarface_74@yahoo.com> wrote in news:4f858d00-7fa5-4f50-8b6f-
>> bd228a0f7aee@n33g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> of the product for something that can easily be added later, plus it
> makes people happy to get new functionality in future OS upgrades.

There's no real technical reason why the IPhone/iPod Touch couldn't print via
Wi-Fi. It just seems that Apple never enabled printing in either of them! One
would hope that this oversight would be remedied in the iPad.
Larry - 02 Feb 2010 19:01 GMT
Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C78D91B50002EEAEF01846D8
@news.giganews.com:

> There's no real technical reason why the IPhone/iPod Touch couldn't print via
> Wi-Fi. It just seems that Apple never enabled printing in either of them! One
> would hope that this oversight would be remedied in the iPad.

It's no "oversight" at all.  Everything it does, it does for Box Office
functionality so they can sell you something.  Don't look for any of them
to tether to any device Apple doesn't sell or that doesn't create
additional revenue.  Why should they allow you simple BT or wifi
connections to a printer, when they can sell you something over ATTWS like
picture messaging.

...ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

ZnU - 02 Feb 2010 22:15 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C78D91B50002EEAEF01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> ...ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.

Huh? Why would Apple care whether you're using AT&T's MMS?

Honestly, some of you guys are a little nuts. I get how one might think
Apple was "greedy" if one badly misunderstood some of their product
design motivations, but some of you seem to think Apple is downright
malicious, doing mean things to users even when Apple derives absolutely
no benefit from them.

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 22:25 GMT
> but some of you seem to think Apple is downright malicious, doing mean
> things to users even when Apple derives absolutely no benefit from them.

That's because they believe that Apple is like themselves.

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Fa-groon - 02 Feb 2010 23:04 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C78D91B50002EEAEF01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> ...ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.

And yet, there is no "pay-to-print" solution for the iPone/Touch either. If
what you assert had any validity to it, there ostensibly would be, and there
isn't.  Also,, if your assertion were true, Apple would allow third party
solutions for such things as E-books either, because it means that Apple
couldn't sell you anything (especially those E-book solutions that allow one
access to sites like the Gutenberg Project where books are free).

Pretty cynical outlook you have there, my friend.
BreadWithSpam@fractious.net - 16 Mar 2010 22:15 GMT
> And yet, there is no "pay-to-print" solution for the iPone/Touch either. If

Go to the App store and search for "Print".

There are several solutions - at least one of which lets you run
a print server on your desktop and print through it (from anywhere,
including when you are not on your local network).  And another
prints directly to your local network-attached printer via WiFi.

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Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks.  The rest gets trashed.
Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
  http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 16:52 GMT
> I don't know of any smart phones that can print directly to a Bluetooth
> or WiFi printer.

The iPhone can print directly to a WiFi HP printer.  Of course, you do need
the (free) HP printing app to do it, but it is easily done.

<http://tinyurl.com/y9bg4au>

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Lloyd Parsons - 02 Feb 2010 16:58 GMT
> > I don't know of any smart phones that can print directly to a Bluetooth
> > or WiFi printer.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/y9bg4au>

Thanks, I never thought it could print, never looked.

Appears there are a few apps for printing available, not just the HP one.

thanks.
Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 17:55 GMT
> Appears there are a few apps for printing available, not just the HP
> one.

Yup, and some of them print documents too, not just photos.

> thanks.

De nada.

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SMS - 02 Feb 2010 17:36 GMT
>> I don't know of any smart phones that can print directly to a Bluetooth
>> or WiFi printer.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/y9bg4au>

I stand corrected.
Larry - 02 Feb 2010 19:05 GMT
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in news:michelle-
D1659A.09523502022010@nothing.attdns.com:

> The iPhone can print directly to a WiFi HP printer.  Of course, you do need
> the (free) HP printing app to do it, but it is easily done.

Look again.  It prints 4x6 PICTURES ONLY.  It's a camera app.

Lemme know when you can print cnn.com from Safari or that PDF file you just
downloaded to the HP printer.

Ask yourself why it ONLY prints pictures off a camera......

Hint - $$$$$

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 19:23 GMT
> > The iPhone can print directly to a WiFi HP printer.  Of course, you do
> > need the (free) HP printing app to do it, but it is easily done.
>
> Look again.  It prints 4x6 PICTURES ONLY.  It's a camera app.

You said it didn't print at all.  It does print, so you're wrong about
that.  Furthermore, it prints any side that the printer supports, so you're
wrong about 4 by 6.

> Lemme know when you can print cnn.com from Safari or that PDF file you just
> downloaded to the HP printer.

<http://mobile.eurosmartz.com/products/printnshare.html>

Email  
  €    Print email and attachments
  €    Access multiple email accounts
  €    View favorite email accounts together in a single inbox
  €    Save emails and attachments
  €    Attach multiple files and images to new emails
  €    Send emails with formatted text and embedded images
  €    Insert contact details into emails
  €    Forward and reply to emails
  €    Full screen viewing of emails
  €    Queue emails for sending later
  €    View queued and sent emails
  €    Supports POP3, IMAP and SSL email accounts
  €    Supports most Exchange 2007 OWA servers
  €    Filter IMAP/OWA email by date

Documents 
  €    View/Print Office 2007, XP, 2003 & 2008 files
  €    View/Print iWork Pages, Numbers & KeyNote files
  €    Store documents, attachments and images
  €    Zip/Unzip files directly on your iPhone/iPod
  €    View files/documents in portrait, landscape and full screen mode
  €    Playback iPhone supported audio and video files
  €    Edit and print text documents
  €    Group files into folders
  €    Drag and drop files and folders to arrange
  €    Navigate through your computer¹s folders to find files
  €    Copy whole folders from your computer
  €    Share files with several Macs and PCs, even remotely

WiFi Hard Drive
  €    Mount your iPhone/iPod as a network disk on your Mac/PC
  €    Drag and drop documents & files to/from your iPhone/iPod
  €    Open, view & send documents and files while away from your Mac/PC

IDisk & WebDAV
  €    Move/Print documents on your iPhone/iPod from your iDisk (MobileMe) or
WebDAV account (e.g. box.net)
  €    Move files to/from your iPhone/iPod by connecting to iDisk/WebDAV

Contacts
  €    Print contacts
  €    Select multiple contacts for printing
  €    Print as combined list or card layout
  €    Insert contact details into emails
  €    Add received email addresses to your contacts
  €    Search for contacts
  €    Sort by first or last name

Photos
  €    Print photos
  €    Select and print multiple photos from your album
  €    Use the camera to take photos and print straight away
  €    Save photos as files for viewing or emailing
  €    Move photos to a folder on your computer
  €    Email photos as attachments or embedded in messages
  €    Select print orientation and size before printing
  €    View photos in full screen mode

Web Pages
  €    Print web pages as you are browsing
  €    Send web pages as email attachments
  €    Full screen browsing view
  €    Save web pages as files for printing or viewing later
  €    Save page bookmarks
  €    Import bookmarks from your PC or Mac
  €    Bookmark folders
  €    Forward and back navigation

Give it up, Larry; all you're doing is exposing your ignorance and making
yourself look more and more foolish.

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Fa-groon - 02 Feb 2010 23:05 GMT
>> I don't know of any smart phones that can print directly to a Bluetooth
>> or WiFi printer.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/y9bg4au>

Really? I didn't know that. Thanks!
Larry - 02 Feb 2010 18:59 GMT
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in news:4b682252$0$1614
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> Of course back
> in the olden days I was printing directly from a Palm Pilot over IR to
> an HP laser printer.

The reviewers of the Nokia N900 all find the IR port on it a curiosity in
2010.

The Maemo hackers are using it as a TV/Stereo remote....(c;]

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Todd Allcock - 03 Feb 2010 05:53 GMT
> The Linux tablet is small form factor computer. The iPhone is a smart
> phone. Big difference. I don't know of any smart phones that can print
> directly to a Bluetooth or WiFi printer. Droid doesn't. Of course back
> in the olden days I was printing directly from a Palm Pilot over IR to
> an HP laser printer.

Well, your SMT5800s can, with the apropriate software.

http://www.westtek.com/smartphone/jetcet/

It'll set you back $10 but works with virtually any name brand BT or WiFi
printer.

I use the touch-screen version on my Tilt with an HP Officejet 6500.

On my PagePlus WinMo phone (Samsung i730) that is old enough to have IR,
I use one of those old Sipix IR thermal printers the size of a paperback
book that runs on 4 AA batteries and prints on tear-off roll paper.
<http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=PPA6-BLU-PB>

It's $12 right now!

I bought an IR dongle for my netbook to use that printer- I keep one in
my travel kit for printing in hotel rooms, and one in the car for
printing internet coupons.
Larry - 03 Feb 2010 08:17 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:yg8an.150045
$uH1.77996@newsfe25.iad:

> On my PagePlus WinMo phone

Whoa!  Cheapskate!....(c;]

Verizon had the "cellphone analysis" kiosk in the mall, again.  I came up
in the Motorola Z6m and asked them to check it out.  When they found out I
was a Pageplus customer blowing away all their Verizon-is-best-network
promo scripts, I was whisked away from the kiosk as other customers heard
what I pay for Verizon-based sellphone service....(c;]

I guess they didn't want me contaminating the air...waves.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

ZnU - 02 Feb 2010 16:25 GMT
> KDT <scarface_74@yahoo.com> wrote in news:4f858d00-7fa5-4f50-8b6f-
> bd228a0f7aee@n33g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> He didn't call me a name like Michelle does.  He was speechless.

You appear to be making sh.t up. Among other things, Apple's web site
doesn't use Flash, and the full version of it loads on iPhones. In fact,
aside from the lack of Flash support (and client-side Java, but you
don't see much of that these days), there's virtually no web page that
renders on desktop WebKit browsers that doesn't work just fine on Mobile
Safari. Why would there be? It's the same engine.

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 16:47 GMT
> You appear to be making sh.t up.

In other words, he lies.  But we already knew that.  Lying Larry, the
Waffle House gourmet.

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Larry - 02 Feb 2010 19:10 GMT
ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in news:znu-D91940.11253702022010
@Port80.Individual.NET:

> Among other things, Apple's web site
> doesn't use Flash, and the full version of it loads on iPhones. In fact,
> aside from the lack of Flash support (and client-side Java, but you
> don't see much of that these days), there's virtually no web page that
> renders on desktop WebKit browsers that doesn't work just fine on Mobile
> Safari. Why would there be? It's the same engine.

Hmm....I swear there was a flash ad on it.....maybe it was one of the Apple
fan websites I was looking at.  Sorry.  

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 19:26 GMT
> Hmm....I swear there was a flash ad on it.....maybe it was one of the
> Apple fan websites I was looking at.  Sorry.

Oh, my gosh.  Did the Sun rise in the West today?  Did Gabriel blow his
horn?  Did the second coming happen?  Did Al Qaida lay down its weapons and
pledge that it will help defend Israel and become a trading partner with
the USA?

Larry not only admitted that he was wrong about something, but he also
apologized.

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Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 16:46 GMT
> > No connectivity to external devices?  The iPhone SDK already allows
> > third party devices to interface with the dock connector .
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Of course, it wouldn't over wifi or bluetooth as it won't connect to
> devices like the nice HP printer.

Gee, I print from my iPhone to my HP printer over WiFi whenever I want to.

> He didn't call me a name like Michelle does.

If you hadn't called us names, I wouldn't have called you names.  You reap
what you sow.

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Lloyd Parsons - 02 Feb 2010 16:52 GMT
> > > No connectivity to external devices?  The iPhone SDK already allows
> > > third party devices to interface with the dock connector .
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Gee, I print from my iPhone to my HP printer over WiFi whenever I want to.

How?  Is there a driver?
Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 16:57 GMT
> > Gee, I print from my iPhone to my HP printer over WiFi whenever I want
> > to.
> >
> How?  Is there a driver?

There's an app for that.

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Larry - 02 Feb 2010 19:11 GMT
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in news:michelle-
CEF2C5.09573602022010@nothing.attdns.com:

>> > Gee, I print from my iPhone to my HP printer over WiFi whenever I want
>> > to.
>> >
>> How?  Is there a driver?
>
> There's an app for that.

What app?  HP's app prints only PICTURES from a camera app.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

News - 02 Feb 2010 16:58 GMT
>>> No connectivity to external devices?  The iPhone SDK already allows
>>> third party devices to interface with the dock connector .
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> If you hadn't called us names, I wouldn't have called you names.  You reap
> what you sow.

The record will show otherwise, and not only vis a vis Larry.
Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 17:50 GMT
> >> He didn't call me a name like Michelle does.
> >
> > If you hadn't called us names, I wouldn't have called you names.  You
> > reap what you sow.
>
> The record will show otherwise, and not only vis a vis Larry.

The record substantiates what I wrote.

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nospam - 01 Feb 2010 22:17 GMT
> > Some of the criteria were:
>
> How do you know this?  Were you on the design team?  Do you have a source
> who was on that team?

it's more blind speculation.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 02 Feb 2010 02:52 GMT
> > > Some of the criteria were:
> >
> > How do you know this?  Were you on the design team?  Do you have a source
> > who was on that team?
>
> it's more blind speculation.

Fanboi orgasm is what it was.
Carl - 02 Feb 2010 05:09 GMT
> In article
> <640d11a4-03ea-4f2e-b96a-c790004cba69@s36g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'm not saying that you're wrong, but some of those criteria do not
> ring true with me.

I think the post is tongue-in-cheek facetiousness. At least I hope that's
how the guy meant it.

I don't doubt that the iPad will sell well. These days, anything Apple,
especially the "i" things, are the pet toys of the youth market, msotly
'cause they're cute more than they're functional.

But this one:
"-Become the eBook reader of choice, destroying the Kindle, the Sony reader,
and any other potential entrants into that market."

...could not have been a real goal of the Apple marketing team. The Kindle
is a highly functional device for its purpose, non-color notwithstanding,
and if I was on vacation and wanted to get my latest copy of the NY Times or
a new book, I wouldn't want to have to run around looking for some wifi
hotspot to be able to do so. The Kindle has this handled. If Apple were
serious about competing with the Kindle, they would have covered this
aspect. How many nutty people are going to sign up for a data service plan
to get this thing, not even cell-phone capable, to work for them wherever
they are?  Time will tell.
nospam - 02 Feb 2010 05:46 GMT
> The Kindle
> is a highly functional device for its purpose, non-color notwithstanding,
> and if I was on vacation and wanted to get my latest copy of the NY Times or
> a new book, I wouldn't want to have to run around looking for some wifi
> hotspot to be able to do so.

good thing you don't need to do that then.

there's a new york times application for the iphone that's been out for
about 18 months and it downloads content for offline reading. it even
won the 2009 mobie award for best news app.

<http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/iphonefaq.html>

> The Kindle has this handled. If Apple were
> serious about competing with the Kindle, they would have covered this
> aspect.

it's not up to apple to write a new york times app, especially when the
new york times did it themselves.

> How many nutty people are going to sign up for a data service plan
> to get this thing, not even cell-phone capable, to work for them wherever
> they are?

the data plan is optional. they can get the wifi only version, load it
up with content, either off their home computer or over the air, then
go to the middle of nowhere and read/watch/listen to it.

> Time will tell.

yes it will.
Richard B. Gilbert - 02 Feb 2010 12:56 GMT
>> The Kindle
>> is a highly functional device for its purpose, non-color notwithstanding,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> to get this thing, not even cell-phone capable, to work for them wherever
>> they are?

Not too many!  My local newspaper made an electronic edition available,
over the internet, to all subscribers when snowfall scrambled delivery
of the actual paper.

It's NOT the same.  It was bad enough trying to read it on a 21"
monitor.  Trying to read it on a mobile device could only be worse!
Michelle Steiner - 02 Feb 2010 05:48 GMT
> The Kindle is a highly functional device for its purpose, non-color
> notwithstanding, and if I was on vacation and wanted to get my latest
> copy of the NY Times or a new book, I wouldn't want to have to run
> around looking for some wifi hotspot to be able to do so. The Kindle has
> this handled.

How does it handle it?  This is a serious question; I'm not trying to be
antagonistic.

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Todd Allcock - 02 Feb 2010 08:17 GMT
> > The Kindle is a highly functional device for its purpose, non-color
> > notwithstanding, and if I was on vacation and wanted to get my latest
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> How does it handle it?  This is a serious question; I'm not trying to be
> antagonistic.

The Kindle includes free 3G access.  The business model seems to be that
Amazon will get you to purchase enough content to cover the cost of the
delivery.

You can subscribe to electronic versions of newspapers at $5-$15/month,
or just read their webpages with the included browser if you're a
cheapskate like I am!  ;)
No Apples at Verizon - Verizon uses obsolete tech - not global - 02 Feb 2010 09:14 GMT
> In article <4b67b38b$0$4976$607ed...@cv.net>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> How does it handle it?  This is a serious question; I'm not trying to be
> antagonistic.

Does the original Kindle work on any US CDMA carrier other than
Sprint?

The original Kindle is CDMA and not even Amazon with their deep
pockets bothered with the expensive Verizon CDMA Network.

When Amazon wanted to improve the product for Kindle 2 they produced
the AT&T compatible version using global GSM technology.

Apple started out with the proper global wireless technology in their
first edition of the iPad.
Did you notice Apple thinks ahead?
Do you?

The original iPad will probably be around long after the first Kindle
is dead and forgotten.
Todd Allcock - 03 Feb 2010 05:57 GMT
At 02 Feb 2010 01:14:38 -0800 No Apples at Verizon - Verizon uses
obsolete tech - not global wrote:

> > > The Kindle is a highly functional device for its purpose, non-color
> > > notwithstanding, and if I was on vacation and wanted to get my
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Does the original Kindle work on any US CDMA carrier other than
> Sprint?

No, because Amazon doesn't have a contract with CDMA carriers other than
Sprint.

> The original Kindle is CDMA and not even Amazon with their deep
> pockets bothered with the expensive Verizon CDMA Network.

Correct.  Amazon offers connectivity for free with Kindles, so their
major criteria is cost.  Sprint was already struggling, and probably very
receptive to making a cut-rate deal with Amazon for bulk access.


> When Amazon wanted to improve the product for Kindle 2 they produced
> the AT&T compatible version using global GSM technology.

Actually no, I have a CDMA Kindle 2.  The Kindle 2 started CDMA and GSM
was introduced as the "Kindle 2 Global", at least until they sold out of
CDMA units.  The larger Kindle DX just cut over to GSM last month.
 

> Apple started out with the proper global wireless technology in their
> first edition of the iPad.

And leveraged the income from users' content purchases to offer free 3G
connectivity?  No, wait, that was Amazon...

Actualy Apple did something even smarter than "start with the right
technology" - they built it modularly to use the flavor of the day, and
reduce costs.  The difference between an WiFi-only iPad and a 3G one is
plug, *click*, and close the case.

> Did you notice Apple thinks ahead?
> Do you?

I noticed that if Apple had built it with a 56k modem as the only
connectivity option, you'd be defending that decision as a stroke of
genius with rationalizations about the reliability of landline service
and the ubiquity of phone jacks.

> The original iPad will probably be around long after the first Kindle
> is dead and forgotten.

I'd hope so- it's nearly three years newer and and twice as expensive.
I'd hope a 2010 Lexus lasts its owner longer than a 2007 Hyundai!
Larry - 03 Feb 2010 08:22 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:Ag8an.150046
$uH1.110291@newsfe25.iad:

> The difference between an WiFi-only iPad and a 3G one is
> plug, *click*, and close the case.

"Your Honor, I object!  If it were that easy, they'd have done that with
the BATTERY!"

I bet it's soldered in.....

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No Apple 4 Verizon! - 03 Feb 2010 14:06 GMT
> At 02 Feb 2010 01:14:38 -0800 No Apples at Verizon - Verizon uses
> obsolete tech - not global wrote:

> Actualy Apple did something even smarter than "start with the right
> technology" - they built it modularly to use the flavor of the day, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > Did you notice Apple thinks ahead?
> > Do you?

Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
I do not see a cut out for that on the Wi-Fi only version. Otherwise a
person could buy the cheaper unit without 3G and upgrade it at an
Apple store by adding the 3G modem at a later date if needed.

That would make sense but unless there is a removable aluminum slug it
the original iPad that will not happen with out a whole new case etc.
Per Rønne - 03 Feb 2010 14:19 GMT
> Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
> top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> That would make sense but unless there is a removable aluminum slug it
> the original iPad that will not happen with out a whole new case etc.

Yes, it would probably be easier to update the flash ram later than to
install i 3G later. And if there is one thing we can all be sure of it
is that flash ram will become cheaper and cheaper - and will be
available with more capacity.

So we will end up with a 16 GB WiFi 3G iPad which is updated to 256 GB.
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ZnU - 03 Feb 2010 16:53 GMT
> > Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
> > top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> So we will end up with a 16 GB WiFi 3G iPad which is updated to 256 GB.

The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be upgradable
than the electronics in your TV.

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Per Rønne - 03 Feb 2010 17:05 GMT
> > > Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
> > > top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be upgradable
> than the electronics in your TV.

Perhaps. Look at this picture of an 8 GB iPhone 3G:

<http://www.rapidrepair.com/guides/iphone3g/pmiPhone_boardbottomBIG.jpg>
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News - 03 Feb 2010 17:09 GMT
>>>> Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
>>>> top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> <http://www.rapidrepair.com/guides/iphone3g/pmiPhone_boardbottomBIG.jpg>

Depends.  Do you feel lucky?
Per Rønne - 03 Feb 2010 17:24 GMT
> >> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
> >> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be upgradable
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Depends.  Do you feel lucky?

I'm a Dane - aren't we supposed to be the luckiest people on the planet?

And - what has it to do with a technical question: is the flash ram om
an iPac [in this case: iPhone] replacable?
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News - 03 Feb 2010 17:41 GMT
>>>> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
>>>> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be upgradable
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> And - what has it to do with a technical question: is the flash ram om
> an iPac [in this case: iPhone] replacable?

I'm sure you are lucky...  I read your comment as if you planned to put
the PCB in a wave solder tank and try to R&R the chip.
Richard B. Gilbert - 03 Feb 2010 18:06 GMT
>>>> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
>>>> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be upgradable
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> And - what has it to do with a technical question: is the flash ram om
> an iPac [in this case: iPhone] replaceable?

If you are good with a soldering iron, use an anti-static wrist strap,
etc, you might be able to replace the memory chip.  That, however, might
not be sufficient to solve your problem.  Is there any evidence that
there are enough address lines to handle 16, 32, or 64GB of flash RAM?
Is there a compatible memory chip available in sizes greater than 8GB?
Can you rewrite the phone's software to take advantage of the extra RAM?

Your best bet might be to go to the company that makes the phone and
explain why you think you need 64GB of flash RAM in the phone.  If they
think there is sufficient demand for a phone with more flash RAM to
justify doing the engineering, retooling, etc. they might just make such
a device.
Per Rønne - 03 Feb 2010 18:36 GMT
> >>>> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
> >>>> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> If you are good with a soldering iron, use an anti-static wrist strap,
> etc, you might be able to replace the memory chip.

For sure, I wouldn't dream of doing it myself. I would ask a certified
repair shop to do it when the ram flash is cheap enough.

In exactly the same way I had the original 80 GB harddisk in my Mac Mini
[then running Leopard Server] replaced with one with 320 GB.

> That, however, might not be sufficient to solve your problem.  Is there
> any evidence that there are enough address lines to handle 16, 32, or 64GB
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> justify doing the engineering, retooling, etc. they might just make such
> a device.

I just want to find out whether it is possible /before/ i puchase the
product.
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Richard B. Gilbert - 03 Feb 2010 21:52 GMT
>>>>>> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
>>>>>> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> I just want to find out whether it is possible /before/ i purchase the
> product.

I'd say yes, it's possible.  I suspect that it will be both difficult
and expensive.
Fa-groon - 03 Feb 2010 22:28 GMT
>>>>>>> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
>>>>>>> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> I'd say yes, it's possible.  I suspect that it will be both difficult
> and expensive.

Frankly, I don't think it's feasable/practical. First of all, I doubt if the
average consumer can even get inside of an iPad (especially if it's put
together like an iPhone, and it looks like it is).

Secondly, surface-mount components are almost impossible to remove from their
pads without ruining the component and/or or the pads unless you have
specialized de-soldering equipment. At the very least, you'll end up with
solder covering more than one pad, shorting them together. Some SM components
don't even have leads, but rather have just pads on the underside of the
component where you cannot even get to them. Removing those requires you to
reflow the circuit board, which cannot be done outside of a professional
circuit board repair station. Even Apple repair doesn't fix things at a
component level. If they find a fault in the circuit board, they just replace
the whole board and send the bad ones back to a central board repair facility
for repair and re-test, at which point it becomes a spare for facilitating
someone else's board-level repair swap.

Then of course you run the risk of a larger memory not having the same
package form-factor as the smaller ones, or there not being enough address
and data lines on the device itself to address more than 64 Gigabytes of
Flash.

I have lots of experience with circuit boards and even *I* wouldn't attempt
what you're contemplating. I have neither the tools nor the skill to work
with replacing those tiny surface-mount ICs.   I tried to replace some
surface-mount op-amps in a microphone mixer with some higher performance
units once and ended up throwing the whole circuit board out. The heat from
my soldering iron ruined it and I was using a tiny iron with a designated
pad-shaped tip designed for removing surface-mount components.
Per Rønne - 03 Feb 2010 22:35 GMT
> Secondly, surface-mount components are almost impossible to remove from their
> pads without ruining the component and/or or the pads unless you have
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> for repair and re-test, at which point it becomes a spare for facilitating
> someone else's board-level repair swap.

OK, sounds like a good idea to select the 64 GB iPad from the beginning.
Without 3G. That is iff bluetooth tethering will be possible.
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Jochem Huhmann - 05 Feb 2010 01:23 GMT
> OK, sounds like a good idea to select the 64 GB iPad from the beginning.
> Without 3G. That is iff bluetooth tethering will be possible.

But why do you need 64GB? I mean, I don't like pure "cloud" computing at
all but a device *with* 3G and probably at least 14 GB free (in the 16
GB version) seems totally fine to me.

I have a 8 GB iPod touch and I have filled it up with more music and
photos and stuff than I actually need and still have more than 1 GB
free. After all with iTunes it's really easy to set up dynamic playlists
to sync only the music to the device you care about right now. Same with
movies and photos and (I guess) books. Why carry 20 movies with you all
the time?

       Jochem

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Michelle Steiner - 05 Feb 2010 01:28 GMT
> > OK, sounds like a good idea to select the 64 GB iPad from the beginning.
> > Without 3G. That is iff bluetooth tethering will be possible.
>
> But why do you need 64GB? I mean, I don't like pure "cloud" computing at
> all but a device *with* 3G and probably at least 14 GB free (in the 16
> GB version) seems totally fine to me.

Here is what my daughter wrote to me about it:

> Looking at the pricing and options Tony and I are inclined to get the
> $829.00 one. With the ibooks app and the ability to watch vids and web
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> have a portable scrapbook. The map function is cool. So, yeah, I'm all
> techie-drooling over it.

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Invid Fan - 05 Feb 2010 04:01 GMT
> > OK, sounds like a good idea to select the 64 GB iPad from the beginning.
> > Without 3G. That is iff bluetooth tethering will be possible.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> movies and photos and (I guess) books. Why carry 20 movies with you all
> the time?

Depends on how often you're going to be able to sync (hmm, I wonder if
you could hook an iPod up to one...). I like having a collection of
albums on hand, which while I will rotate some in and out I probably
"need" a good 30 GB for work so I have something for every mood. Not
that I'd be using an iPad at work, but once you throw in podcasts and
the like the space really adds up for some of us. To be a laptop
replacement for traveling the more memory the better.

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Per Rønne - 05 Feb 2010 04:19 GMT
> > OK, sounds like a good idea to select the 64 GB iPad from the beginning.
> > Without 3G. That is iff bluetooth tethering will be possible.
>
> But why do you need 64GB? I mean, I don't like pure "cloud" computing at
> all but a device *with* 3G and probably at least 14 GB free (in the 16
> GB version) seems totally fine to me.

With 20% extra you double the flash memory, with 40% extra you quadruple
it.

> I have a 8 GB iPod touch and I have filled it up with more music and
> photos and stuff than I actually need and still have more than 1 GB
> free. After all with iTunes it's really easy to set up dynamic playlists
> to sync only the music to the device you care about right now. Same with
> movies and photos and (I guess) books. Why carry 20 movies with you all
> the time?

I have an iPhone 3G with 16 GB. Almost 8 GB already filled with
applications. And then comes books, music, podcasts ...

With no options to upgrade the flash memory I think it is better to have
to much than too little.

And with the option to jailbreak your iPhone and install MyWi [turning
the phone into a WiFi hotspot] you can save the $130 3G option. Iff
bluetooth tethering is not possible - it cannot be done on an iPod
Touch, I'm told.
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Your Name - 05 Feb 2010 05:29 GMT
I missed the start of this topic which seems to be about adding more RAM to
an iPad, but the thitle has made me think. The iPod Touch users have to pay
for their OS updates, so it's very likely that iPad users may have to as
well.  :-(
Per Rønne - 05 Feb 2010 05:54 GMT
> I missed the start of this topic which seems to be about adding more RAM to
> an iPad, but the thitle has made me think. The iPod Touch users have to pay
> for their OS updates, so it's very likely that iPad users may have to as
> well.  :-(

Are you suggesting to wait with the purchase until iPhone OS 4.0 has
been released?

FUT misc.phone.mobile.iphone
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ZnU - 05 Feb 2010 17:27 GMT
> I missed the start of this topic which seems to be about adding more RAM to
> an iPad, but the thitle has made me think. The iPod Touch users have to pay
> for their OS updates, so it's very likely that iPad users may have to as
> well.  :-(

A recent accounting rule change allows Apple to change this practice.

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Your Name - 05 Feb 2010 22:42 GMT
> > I missed the start of this topic which seems to be about adding more RAM to
> > an iPad, but the thitle has made me think. The iPod Touch users have to pay
> > for their OS updates, so it's very likely that iPad users may have to as
> > well.  :-(
>
> A recent accounting rule change allows Apple to change this practice.

Thank goodness. Whichever management moron originally came up with that
idea should be shot ... unfortunately they no doubt got a massive bonus
instead.  :-(
Jochem Huhmann - 07 Feb 2010 20:22 GMT
>> > I missed the start of this topic which seems to be about adding more RAM to
>> > an iPad, but the thitle has made me think. The iPod Touch users have to pay
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> idea should be shot ... unfortunately they no doubt got a massive bonus
> instead.  :-(

I think Apple is massively interested in iPhone-/iTouch-/iPad-Users
running the latest software version for more than one reason. It
leverages the field for developers, it makes sure all known security
holes are plugged and it allows them to cease support for older versions
much sooner. A few dollars to be earned by selling the stuff just
doesn't count here that much. Having some large percentage of users
using old versions is plainly bad for the platform.

       Jochem

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Richard B. Gilbert - 03 Feb 2010 23:17 GMT
>>>>>>>> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
>>>>>>>> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> my soldering iron ruined it and I was using a tiny iron with a designated
> pad-shaped tip designed for removing surface-mount components.  

Perhaps the OP should buy a phone that's more easily upgradeable.  I
upgraded the memory on my RAZR V3m by removing the battery, sliding a
tiny little piece of plastic into a slot designed to hold it and
reinstalling the battery.  I forget what I paid for that 1GB but it was
not terribly expensive, less than $10.
Per Rønne - 03 Feb 2010 22:31 GMT
> >>>>>> The memory is probably soldered to the logic board. These devices are
> >>>>>> computing appliances; they are likely no more intended to be
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> I'd say yes, it's possible.  I suspect that it will be both difficult
> and expensive.

Perhaps. It will all depend on how the flash ram has been put into the
device. Harddisk-like, with something like removable RAM-blocks - or
soldered. And the price these items will eventually drop to.
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Michelle Steiner - 03 Feb 2010 20:48 GMT
> If you are good with a soldering iron, use an anti-static wrist strap,
> etc, you might be able to replace the memory chip.  That, however, might
> not be sufficient to solve your problem.  Is there any evidence that
> there are enough address lines to handle 16, 32, or 64GB of flash RAM?
> Is there a compatible memory chip available in sizes greater than 8GB?
> Can you rewrite the phone's software to take advantage of the extra RAM?

Are you saying that Apple has a different circuit board and different
versions of the software/firmware for each size of RAM?

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Richard B. Gilbert - 03 Feb 2010 22:56 GMT
>> If you are good with a soldering iron, use an anti-static wrist strap,
>> etc, you might be able to replace the memory chip.  That, however, might
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Are you saying that Apple has a different circuit board and different
> versions of the software/firmware for each size of RAM?

No.  I'm saying that the maximum memory is a HARD limit.  There's likely
no way to get more.  If you are not yet at that limit, you can add
memory by adding chips or replacing the chip(s) with chip(s) of greater
capacity.

Do not take the above as gospel.  It's a "scientific wild a.s guess" or
S.W.A.G. for short. I don't have an Ipad and don't want one.

FWIW, 1GB of Flash is a single chip, smaller than a postage stamp.  My
RAZR V3m has a socket in which I can, and have, installed a 1GB flash
chip.  I believe that 2GB and 4GB chips are also available.  That's an
awesome amount of memory.  It holds a lot of music or video or just
about anything else that can be reduced to bits and bytes.
Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 00:19 GMT
> > Are you saying that Apple has a different circuit board and different
> > versions of the software/firmware for each size of RAM?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> memory by adding chips or replacing the chip(s) with chip(s) of greater
> capacity.

As I understand it, the maximum memory on the chips used by the iPhone 3Gs
and iPod Touch is 32 GB.  The iPhone has room for one of them, and the 2nd
Generation iPod Touch has room for two (because it doesn't have a 3G/GPS
chip).

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Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Feb 2010 01:25 GMT
>>> Are you saying that Apple has a different circuit board and different
>>> versions of the software/firmware for each size of RAM?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Generation iPod Touch has room for two (because it doesn't have a 3G/GPS
> chip).

It sounds as if these devices have a more than adequate supply of RAM!
32GB will store a lot of music, video, text and just about anything else
that you can express in bits and bytes!

My desktop PC gets along with a mere 2GB!  It maxes out at 4GB if I want
to spend the money.
Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 01:51 GMT
> > As I understand it, the maximum memory on the chips used by the iPhone
> > 3Gs and iPod Touch is 32 GB.  The iPhone has room for one of them, and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> My desktop PC gets along with a mere 2GB!  It maxes out at 4GB if I want
> to spend the money.

Keep in mind that the RAM on the iDevices also store data, in lieu of their
having disk drives.  Your desktop PC's RAM is strictly for processing; data
is stored on the hard disk.

Even so, you're right; they will hold a humongous amount of data, but not
nearly as much as something like the iPod Classic with its 160 GB hard
drive.

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Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Feb 2010 02:36 GMT
>>> As I understand it, the maximum memory on the chips used by the iPhone
>>> 3Gs and iPod Touch is 32 GB.  The iPhone has room for one of them, and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> nearly as much as something like the iPod Classic with its 160 GB hard
> drive.

My local Office Max will sell me a two terabyte disk drive at an
affordable price.  Or maybe it's three terabytes.  Either way I don't
have that much data.  I have 40GB on my PC and a "LinkStation"  network
drive with 320GB of space.  That's enough to keep several generations of
backups for my PC and my wife's PC.

I don't do anything with video.  My music is all on CD.  I guess I'm
just totally out of fashion!
Per Rønne - 04 Feb 2010 04:19 GMT
> I don't do anything with video.  My music is all on CD.  I guess I'm
> just totally out of fashion!

Yes, you sound as if you were born in the last century:-).

BTW, I still have around 300 LPs with medieval, renaissance, baroque,
rococo and romantic music ... 500 CDs with the same and 50 DVDs with
opera and ballet ... and almost nothing after the Great War ...
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Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Feb 2010 05:14 GMT
>> I don't do anything with video.  My music is all on CD.  I guess I'm
>> just totally out of fashion!
>
> Yes, you sound as if you were born in the last century:-).

Would you believe the first HALF of the last century?  I'm a genuine old
fuddy-duddy!

> BTW, I still have around 300 LPs with medieval, renaissance, baroque,
> rococo and romantic music ... 500 CDs with the same and 50 DVDs with
> opera and ballet ... and almost nothing after the Great War ...

I don't have much of anything after the Spanish-American War!  Richard
Wagner is my favorite composer.  I still have a turntable and about a
hundred LPs but I much prefer CDs.
Per Rønne - 04 Feb 2010 09:49 GMT
> >> I don't do anything with video.  My music is all on CD.  I guess I'm
> >> just totally out of fashion!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Wagner is my favorite composer.  I still have a turntable and about a
> hundred LPs but I much prefer CDs.

I think my favourites are Monteverdi, Schütz, Buxtehude, Bach, Händel
and Rameau ...
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Fa-groon - 04 Feb 2010 21:19 GMT
>>>> I don't do anything with video.  My music is all on CD.  I guess I'm
>>>> just totally out of fashion!
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I think my favourites are Monteverdi, Schütz, Buxtehude, Bach, Händel
> and Rameau ...

While I have thousands of LPs and (almost as many CDs). I prefer the sound of
a good, quiet LP. CD has many advantages, to be sure. It's much more accurate
to the signal it's fed than is LP and is of course quieter and doesn't
deteriorate with each play, but the LP, ultimately, sounds more like real
music. Kind of a paradox. The reason for this is that the recording chain
isn't all that kind to the music it's capturing. The act of recording a
performance sterilizes it, strips it of much of the warmth that characterizes
a live performance. What results from today's, digital recordings is very
clean, low in distortion, and very dead sounding.

I've been in the music business for more than 40 years, first as a rock
performer, then as a recording engineer/producer. I've seen every 'advance'
in recording technology that's come down the pike, and most of it, including
digital, has moved us further away from the sound of the music, not closer to
it. There are three names that most recording engineers and producers worth
their salt speak with almost worshipful reverence: Louis Leyton, C. Robert
Fine, and Rudy Van Gelder. Their stereo recordings are between 45 and 55
years old, and are still sold and still purchased. Part of this is because
these people recorded some of the greatest names in classical music and jazz,
and therefore made recordings of some of the greatest performances of the
last century. Bust mostly it has to do with the sound. Using, what would be
considered today, very primitive equipment (no more than three microphones,
and simple, three track analog tape recorders running at 15 or 30
inches/second), they produced recordings that are so good, that nothing made
since sounds better, and most don't sound as good.  These recordings have
been remastered dozens of times and have been transfered to CD, SACD, and
even DVD-A. But they still sound best on vinyl LP because the types of
distortion inherent in vinyl mastering and playback is 'euphonic' in that it
adds a type of artificial "warmth" that makes LPs sound more like real music.
IOW, what the microphone and recording chain strips away from music, LP
synthesizes. No. it's not signal accurate, yes it is distortion, but since
the goal or the recording arts is to get as close as possible to sound of the
real performance, LP serves the MUSIC (not the recording) in ways that no
digital medium can.
ZnU - 04 Feb 2010 16:06 GMT
> > > As I understand it, the maximum memory on the chips used by the iPhone
> > > 3Gs and iPod Touch is 32 GB.  The iPhone has room for one of them, and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> having disk drives.  Your desktop PC's RAM is strictly for processing; data
> is stored on the hard disk.

Err... flash memory isn't RAM. These devices will have some amount of
RAM as well, Apple just hasn't said how much because it's largely
irrelevant to end-users. The iPhone 3GS has 256 MB of RAM, for the sake
of reference.

> Even so, you're right; they will hold a humongous amount of data, but not
> nearly as much as something like the iPod Classic with its 160 GB hard
> drive.

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SMS - 04 Feb 2010 16:32 GMT
>>> As I understand it, the maximum memory on the chips used by the iPhone
>>> 3Gs and iPod Touch is 32 GB.  The iPhone has room for one of them, and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> having disk drives.  Your desktop PC's RAM is strictly for processing; data
> is stored on the hard disk.

Nope.
Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 17:50 GMT
> > Keep in mind that the RAM on the iDevices also store data, in lieu of
> > their having disk drives.  Your desktop PC's RAM is strictly for
> > processing; data is stored on the hard disk.
>
> Nope.

Please elucidate.

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Per Rønne - 04 Feb 2010 04:19 GMT
> It sounds as if these devices have a more than adequate supply of RAM!
> 32GB will store a lot of music, video, text and just about anything else
> that you can express in bits and bytes!
>
> My desktop PC gets along with a mere 2GB!  It maxes out at 4GB if I want
> to spend the money.

But an iPad's flash memory will not only replace your PC's RAM - it will
also replace your PC's harddisk.
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Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Feb 2010 05:03 GMT
>> It sounds as if these devices have a more than adequate supply of RAM!
>> 32GB will store a lot of music, video, text and just about anything else
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> But an iPad's flash memory will not only replace your PC's RAM - it will
> also replace your PC's harddisk.

Well, yes.  It would replace my VERY modest 40GB drive.

If I ever need to replace my 40 GB drive, I will probably buy something
on the order of 200 - 300 GB.  The last time I looked, 40GB was the
smallest hard disk you could buy!
John Navas - 07 Feb 2010 18:01 GMT
>> Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
>> top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>So we will end up with a 16 GB WiFi 3G iPad which is updated to 256 GB.

Only if you are dumb enough to buy a device you have to keep replacing
regularly just to upgrade the memory (or replace the battery).  

The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Richard B. Gilbert - 07 Feb 2010 18:12 GMT
>>> Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
>>> top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.

People seem to buy them regardless. . . .
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 20:25 GMT
> Only if you are dumb enough to buy a device you have to keep replacing
> regularly just to upgrade the memory (or replace the battery).  

there's no need to replace it regularly and most people don't upgrade
their computers or other products anyway.

> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.

there's an optional add on for those who need it.
News - 07 Feb 2010 21:08 GMT
>> Only if you are dumb enough to buy a device you have to keep replacing
>> regularly just to upgrade the memory (or replace the battery).  
>
> there's no need to replace it regularly and most people don't upgrade
> their computers or other products anyway.

Oh really?  That explains the broad and deep aftermarkets....
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 21:27 GMT
>> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
>
> there's an optional add on for those who need it.

That's in no way a good solution.  Sticking out of the bottom?  Only
good for occasional use. How can you seriously defend this?

So which model are you going to buy?

Steve
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 21:32 GMT
> >> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
> >
> > there's an optional add on for those who need it.
>
> That's in no way a good solution.  Sticking out of the bottom?  Only
> good for occasional use. How can you seriously defend this?

copying images from cards *is* occasional use.

the ipad is *not* an accessory for photographers, like one of those
epson viewers.

the vast majority of ipad users are not going to be copying images off
of cards, since there's *so* much else it will do.
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 23:21 GMT
>>>> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
>>> there's an optional add on for those who need it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the vast majority of ipad users are not going to be copying images off
> of cards, since there's *so* much else it will do.

I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.

In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
nearly an infinite amount of content with me.

Steve
nospam - 08 Feb 2010 00:08 GMT
> I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
> card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.

how is inserting a card with music or movies going to integrate with
the library database on the ipod/ipad? sounds like a user interface
nightmare.

and do you really want a pocket full of cards?

> In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
> nearly an infinite amount of content with me.

most people don't even fill the space they have. the ipad has 16-64
gig, while the best selling ipods are 8-16 gig, not the 120-160 gig
ipod classic. the ipad already has plenty of space for most people.
John Navas - 08 Feb 2010 03:23 GMT
>> I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
>> card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.
>
>how is inserting a card with music or movies going to integrate with
>the library database on the ipod/ipad? sounds like a user interface
>nightmare.

Sounds like routine programming to me.
I can't believe Apple programmers are so much less capable than those at
other companies as you seem to think.

>and do you really want a pocket full of cards?

One actually.  The one that's now in my camera.

>> In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
>> nearly an infinite amount of content with me.
>
>most people don't even fill the space they have. the ipad has 16-64
>gig, while the best selling ipods are 8-16 gig, not the 120-160 gig
>ipod classic. the ipad already has plenty of space for most people.

Red herring -- that's not the issue.
The issue is the pictures are on a memory card in the camera.

What were they thinking?
Or were they just not thinking?
Or so arrogant they don't care what users want?

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

-hh - 08 Feb 2010 03:41 GMT
> >Steve deMena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I can't believe Apple programmers are so much less capable than those at
> other companies as you seem to think.

Navas makes assumptions about the quality of programmers, based on the
absence of a software feature that is very well absent because it has
no corresponding OEM hardware with which it to be used.   Check.

> >and do you really want a pocket full of cards?
>
> One actually.  The one that's now in my camera.

That's merely your use instance.  The one from this subthread was
Steve's, which is still here:

> >> In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
> >> nearly an infinite amount of content with me.

Steve has a valid customer desire:  he wants 'infinite' storage
because he has a fringe case of a remarkably huge music library.
Lacking an adequately suitable expansion port to accommodate Steve,
the iPad isn't for him.

Yes, Apple loses a sale, but the point that nospam was making was that
given how relatively uncommon music libraries are of this size, Apple
doesn't lose that many sales due to this customer desire.

> >most people don't even fill the space they have. the ipad has 16-64
> >gig, while the best selling ipods are 8-16 gig, not the 120-160 gig
> >ipod classic. the ipad already has plenty of space for most people.
>
> Red herring -- that's not the issue.
> The issue is the pictures are on a memory card in the camera.

Sorry, but that's a Red Herring because that's _your_  personal issue,
not the one introduced by Steve.  And its a pretty lame one at that,
because:

> What were they thinking?
> Or were they just not thinking?
> Or so arrogant they don't care what users want?

They were likely thinking that the iPad would generally suck as a
competitor to the Epson 5000 as a digital wallet (DW) or a basic
Netbook with a big 2.5" HD to temporarily store one's new images
before one gets to their home workstation for permanency.   So they
avoided the temptation try to force-fit it into trying to be one.

Yes, another "lost sale", but this one is actually quite rare also,
because it requires a photographer whose interests & needs call for a
DW in the first place - - - that has been in decline due to the
drastically lower prices for flash media - - plus, it is also far more
theoretical, since it carries a presumption that the iPad would
somehow be sold despite clearly superior purpose-built DW products on
the marketplace such as the Epson 5000 and Hyperdrive Colorspace.

-hh
Steve de Mena - 08 Feb 2010 10:57 GMT
>> I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
>> card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.
>
> how is inserting a card with music or movies going to integrate with
> the library database on the ipod/ipad? sounds like a user interface
> nightmare.

Yeah, a real nightmare.  Don't think I'm going to be able to sleep
tonight.

> and do you really want a pocket full of cards?

Maybe it's just 1 card permanently inserted into the iPad.  Or maybe I
carry around 4 rolling suitcases with 4,567 cards.

IT'S MY CHOICE.

>> In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
>> nearly an infinite amount of content with me.
>
> most people don't even fill the space they have. the ipad has 16-64
> gig, while the best selling ipods are 8-16 gig, not the 120-160 gig
> ipod classic. the ipad already has plenty of space for most people.

Lame argument.

Steve
nospam - 08 Feb 2010 16:30 GMT
> > and do you really want a pocket full of cards?
>
> Maybe it's just 1 card permanently inserted into the iPad.  Or maybe I
> carry around 4 rolling suitcases with 4,567 cards.
>
> IT'S MY CHOICE.

it's your choice to buy a product that fits your needs. if you want the
ability to use cards, get a device that has a card slot. it's really
very simple.

buying a product that doesn't have a feature you want and then whining
about it is to be blunt, stupid.
Steve de Mena - 08 Feb 2010 20:21 GMT
>>> and do you really want a pocket full of cards?
>> Maybe it's just 1 card permanently inserted into the iPad.  Or maybe I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> buying a product that doesn't have a feature you want and then whining
> about it is to be blunt, stupid.

HUH?

The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I am
saying.  Live with it.

Steve
nospam - 08 Feb 2010 21:17 GMT
> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I am
> saying.  Live with it.

it doesn't. live with it or buy a different product.
Steve de Mena - 08 Feb 2010 22:45 GMT
>> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I am
>> saying.  Live with it.
>
> it doesn't. live with it or buy a different product.

Sorry, I won't.  I'll state my opinions here as much as I want.

You can Killfile me if you have a problem with that.

Steve
nospam - 08 Feb 2010 23:24 GMT
> >> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I am
> >> saying.  Live with it.
> >
> > it doesn't. live with it or buy a different product.
>
> Sorry, I won't.  I'll state my opinions here as much as I want.

nothing wrong with stating opinions, and i'll do the same.

however, buying a product that doesn't have the features you want is
stupid.
Todd Allcock - 09 Feb 2010 05:37 GMT
> > >> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I am
> > >> saying.  Live with it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> however, buying a product that doesn't have the features you want is
> stupid.

Not necessarily- sometimes we can't get everything on our laundry list of
features, and have prioritize.  That's why the iPhone is so successful-
it does so many things well, that most users overlook its shortcomings.

The iPad will be the same way, most likely.  It was industrial-strength
stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
particularly with a kludgey external reader available.
nospam - 09 Feb 2010 06:19 GMT
> Not necessarily- sometimes we can't get everything on our laundry list of
> features, and have prioritize.  That's why the iPhone is so successful-
> it does so many things well, that most users overlook its shortcomings.

or they don't matter as much as some people think they do. no device is
going to please *everyone* all the time.

> The iPad will be the same way, most likely.  It was industrial-strength
> stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
> particularly with a kludgey external reader available.

it was not stupidity at all. i doubt that most users will care. some
might, but again, it's a priority thing.
Steve de Mena - 09 Feb 2010 12:13 GMT
>> Not necessarily- sometimes we can't get everything on our laundry list of
>> features, and have prioritize.  That's why the iPhone is so successful-
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> it was not stupidity at all. i doubt that most users will care. some
> might, but again, it's a priority thing.

Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?

Steve
Jon Ribbens - 10 Feb 2010 16:21 GMT
>>> The iPad will be the same way, most likely.  It was industrial-strength
>>> stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?

Do you seriously think that Apple don't?
Steve de Mena - 11 Feb 2010 08:27 GMT
>>>> The iPad will be the same way, most likely.  It was industrial-strength
>>>> stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Do you seriously think that Apple don't?

Consumer Research?  I think they feel they don't need it, that they
"know better".

Steve
Larry - 11 Feb 2010 09:38 GMT
Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:ib-dnfUtIu3
_Iu7WnZ2dnUVZ_tZi4p2d@giganews.com:

>>>>> The iPad will be the same way, most likely.  It was industrial-strength
>>>>> stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Steve

ATT and Apple are meant for each other.  Both think they are omnipotent.

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John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 19:23 GMT
>Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:ib-dnfUtIu3
>_Iu7WnZ2dnUVZ_tZi4p2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> Consumer Research?  I think they feel they don't need it, that they
>> "know better".

>ATT and Apple are meant for each other.  Both think they are omnipotent.

For once I agree with you!  :O

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Fa-groon - 11 Feb 2010 19:27 GMT
> Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:ib-dnfUtIu3
> _Iu7WnZ2dnUVZ_tZi4p2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> ATT and Apple are meant for each other.  Both think they are omnipotent.

That's ridiculous. AT&T and Apple are just companies developing from business
models that they think will garner their shareholders the highest return on
investment  - just like any other corporation. All their decisions are
business calls. They aren't aspiring to be gods, or even to be monopolies,
just profitable businesses in each of their business sectors. That you don't
agree with their policies or like their products is a decision that you can
make. Buy or don't buy as you choose, but to whip-up some idiotic Jihad
against CORPORATIONS  because you don't like what or how they sell is just a
waste of everybody's time, including yours. Forget 'em both and move on, is
my advice.
Larry - 11 Feb 2010 21:23 GMT
Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C7999A0A0008118AF01846D8
@news.giganews.com:

> That's ridiculous. AT&T and Apple are just companies developing from business
> models that they think will garner their shareholders the highest return on
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> waste of everybody's time, including yours. Forget 'em both and move on, is
> my advice.  

And THAT makes them the "consumer's friend"?

I think NOT.

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Fa-groon - 12 Feb 2010 00:21 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C7999A0A0008118AF01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> I think NOT.

What makes you think that ANY corporation is "the consumer's friend"? For
that matter, what makes you believe that *I* think that either (or any)
corporation is "the consumer's friend"? All corporations are self-serving
opportunists and most capitalist business models are based on greed and
avarice. I've an acquaintance who founded a company making solar energy
equipment. He's getting rich. Did he start the company because he cares about
"carbon footprints" and all the other socially popular "green" buzzwords?
Hell no. He doesn't give a rat's a.s about any of that. He saw an opportunity
to make a fortune and seized it. If you don't understand this, Larry, then
you are extremely naive.
Larry - 12 Feb 2010 02:05 GMT
Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C799DEF9001839A6F01846D8
@news.giganews.com:

> All corporations are self-serving
> opportunists and most capitalist business models are based on greed and
> avarice.

This is correct.

So, why are there corporate fanboiz in these newsgroups?

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Fa-groon - 12 Feb 2010 03:42 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C799DEF9001839A6F01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> So, why are there corporate fanboiz in these newsgroups?

Are there? It is probably more of a case that Apple makes a series of
products that meets these people's needs better than other similar products
coupled with Apple's position as a corporate underdog. OTOH, this type of
"loyalty" is pretty ephemeral and would likely evaporate if and when
something better comes along. Apple does a good job at it's business model
and it produces products that many people love (and just as many people
hate), but all they have to do change direction slightly to make those who
"love" Apple's products take that love elsewhere.
Jon Ribbens - 11 Feb 2010 16:01 GMT
>>> Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?
>>
>> Do you seriously think that Apple don't?
>
> Consumer Research?  I think they feel they don't need it, that they
> "know better".

So, given the huge success of the iPod, iPhone, etc, you're telling
me that you hugely admire the near-psychic powers of Apple's design
team for getting things fantastically right without any external
input? Can I quote you on that?
Todd Allcock - 11 Feb 2010 17:45 GMT
>>>> Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> team for getting things fantastically right without any external
> input? Can I quote you on that?

Well, you can quote ME on that if you like, although it wasn't my quote.

I think Apple has a certain hubris/arrogance that leads them to release
products in their own way, with a "like it or lump it" attitude.

However, having said that, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing-
Apple has an almost uncanny sense of what the public wants in consumer
electronics, based on experience, trends, or what they see as problems or
opportunities in the existing marketplace.  I liken it to a fashion
designer- designers make what _they_ think is good, and don't listen to
external committees, pundits, critics, or focus groups.  Popular designers
hit a nerve in buyers that attract them to that designers' work, and that's
what Apple currently seems to do.

Also, like with fashion designers, buyers seem to fall into two groups-
those that "get it" and like the work, and those that don't, and either
don't like it, or at least don't particularly see what the fuss is about.
Again, that's not a bad thing.  Obviously, as my posts generally betray, I'm
simply one of those that just don't get it.  To me, while the iPhone and
iPod are perfectly decent, acceptable products in their respective markets
and have a lot to offer, I don't see the hypnotic sway they seem to hold
over others.  I'm like the adults in the story of the Pied Piper- I can hear
the music, but I can't figure out why all the village kids are following it!
;)

Plus, to be fair, as far as "getting things fantastically right" we're
really talking about the iPod and iPhone.  Both wildly successful products
fueling Apple's current success, but Apple's other endeavors, like the Mac
and Apple TV, while perfectly good products, aren't market-leading or
market-defining products, as evidenced by their market share.  Guys like
"Your Name" can pretend all he likes that the 90% of people who don't buy
Macs don't only because they've simply had the misfortune of never actually
trying one, and are only one Genius Bar demonstration away from becoming Mac
users for life, but the Mac has been around long enough that that
explanation simply doesn't wash.  The vast majority of buyers simply don't
find the advantages the Mac has are worth the trade-offs, whether those be
barrier-of-entry costs, their existing investment (financial, intellectual,
etc.) in PCs and PC software, compatibility with work equipment, availablity
of software/games, etc.  The percentage of people who "get" the iPhone or
iPod is seemingly higher than those that "get" the Mac, which is reflected
in their respective marketshares.

One could argue that if Apple did indeed listen to consumer research, they'd
have learned quite a while ago that people want $300 laptops, which Apple
could certainly offer by cutting corners (and margins) they have no interest
in cutting.  (And I'm not suggesting they should!)

Apple has hit a nerve with the iPod and now the iPhone.  I think the iPad
will be a interesting test- this is a market that barely exists, and hasn't
proven itself as a mass market in any way, unlike the iPod and iPhone, which
were good products launched into mature markets.  [Before everyone jumps in
to argue with me that the iPod launched when MP3 players were a similar
untapped market waiting for the "right" product, I humbly submit that's only
true if you define the market as "MP3 player," or "digital music player" and
not the larger and more generic "portable music player" which, pre-iPod, was
as HUGE a category as today, dominated by CD players and radio/cassette
Walkmans.  iPods didn't "create" the portable music player market- it
transitioned the market to the digital age.  A very impressive feat, but a
certainly inevitable one.

The potential problem with the iPad, from a marketing perspective, is
figuring out what is it intended to replace.  The iPod replaced the Walkman,
the iPhone was the "smartphone for the rest of us," but what's the iPad?
It's not like we're all currently walking around with "analog" paper
clipboards screaming to be replaced by a digital version, or all lugging
around portable TVs or DVD players because our iPod's screens are too small.
Even ebooks- the darling category of the moment, is fairly well served by
current smaller, cheaper, easy to use devices.   The question is, IMO, can
Apple create an entirely new market for the first time?  Does the consumer
want/need a "couch computer?"  (The current tablet market is a professional
one running vertical applications mostly, and I don't think that's the tiny
market Apple has set its sights on!)  Will the iPad strike the same nerve in
the consumer that the iPod and iPhone did, or will be an Apple TV-like "good
idea" that most consumers might be marginally impressed by, but can't see
any pressing need for in their own lives.

Personally I don't think the iPad will become the runaway ubiquitous "hit"
that the iPhone has become, simply because there's no pressing need for it
to fill, but I think it'll sell well enough to justify its creation.  That's
another example, IMO, of Apple not listening to "consumer research."  Apple
is still gutsy enough to launch a new untested category like an Apple TV or
an iPad, despite the potential of a perceived marketplace failure "proving
wrong" their reputation for, as you kiddingly called it, "the near-psychic
powers of Apple's design team for getting things fantastically right..."
It's very impressive that when discussing Apple's failures, the best example
any one points to is the Newton, which happened nearly two decades ago, to
virtually a completely different company in terms of management.

What I will sit back and find amusing will be the tireless parade of
iPadalikes that will launch even before the iPad has time to be deemed a
market success or not- Apple's "can do no wrong" reputation has companies
already scrambling to compete in an as-yet-undefined product category
against an as yet unlaunched product!  (I look forward to buying one of
those tablet phonies on clearance in 12 months for $99 or $199 just to play
with, after they're all dumped on the market below cost after failing
miserably!)  If the iPad is successful, it will "own" the category like
iPods own the portable media player category, since any copycats won't have
time to invest in a thoughtfully planned end-to-end user experience, but
will simply press hastily-assembled keyboardless Windows or Linux netbooks
into use as "tablets."  These sure-to-released Frankenpads will fail
miserably, and deservedly so.
ZnU - 11 Feb 2010 18:38 GMT
> >>>> Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> the music, but I can't figure out why all the village kids are following it!
> ;)

I basically agree with this analysis, except for two points.

First, it's not really "hubris/arrogance" to do things your own way if
you actually *do* know better than everyone else, which as you point
out, Apple often seems to. (Of course, being *right* after ignoring your
critics just infuriates them more.)

Second, I think the comparison to fashion design, while not entirely
wrong, is playing off some silly stereotypes about Apple customers and
tends to trivialize the whole thing. IMO a far more apt comparison would
be to great architecture. Architecture similarly combines aesthetic,
functional and engineering considerations, whereas fashion design only
generally considers the first two and, all too often, only the first one.

> Plus, to be fair, as far as "getting things fantastically right" we're
> really talking about the iPod and iPhone.  Both wildly successful products
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> iPod is seemingly higher than those that "get" the Mac, which is reflected
> in their respective marketshares.

I think a more accurate analysis, given the success of the iPhone and
iPad, is that there's nothing specially wrong with the design of the Mac
(except, see next response). The Mac is designed according to very
similar principles. What appears to be going on with the Mac is simply
that it's hugely difficult to make progress against the Windows
hegemony. The network effects that support Windows are simply too
strong. There's nothing Apple can do to change this by changing the Mac,
because the problem isn't with the Mac.

> One could argue that if Apple did indeed listen to consumer research, they'd
> have learned quite a while ago that people want $300 laptops, which Apple
> could certainly offer by cutting corners (and margins) they have no interest
> in cutting.  (And I'm not suggesting they should!)

If the Mac is never going to make much direct progress against the
Windows hegemony (see above), an Apple netbook is not going to be a
breakout success for Apple. There seems to be an effective market share
"cap" that the Mac and other non-Windows desktop platforms are subjected
to. Given that this is the case, Apple's best outcome with the Mac is to
optimize returns from a relatively fixed portion of the market. Once you
understand this reality, Apple's Mac pricing model, and the lack of a
netbook, make perfect sense.

> Apple has hit a nerve with the iPod and now the iPhone.  I think the iPad
> will be a interesting test- this is a market that barely exists, and hasn't
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> The potential problem with the iPad, from a marketing perspective, is
> figuring out what is it intended to replace.

I don't think this is really a problem. What was the home-based personal
computer intended to replace?

> The iPod replaced the Walkman, the iPhone was the "smartphone for the
> rest of us," but what's the iPad? It's not like we're all currently
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> smaller, cheaper, easy to use devices.   The question is, IMO, can
> Apple create an entirely new market for the first time?

Possibly the second time, depending on how much credit you want to give
the Apple II for launching the personal computer market as we know it.

But look, these things happen in funny ways sometimes. 2020's "killer
app" will probably do something that not only does nobody think they
need in 2010, but nobody has even thought of in 2010. Think of how much
of what people do with computers today, that they'd never want to live
without, was nowhere in sight when, say, the Mac launched in 1984. Seven
years before the first web browser!

For now, the iPad just needs to sell well enough to remain on the
market. If it does that (and I think it will), the simple fact that it
has very different capabilities from existing desktop platforms means
that it's nearly inevitable that sooner or later someone will come up
with something significant that traditional desktop platforms can't do
at all or that the iPad is much better at.

Or, as I've speculated previously, the iPad may not need a "killer app".
It may be the case -- and the iPhone provides some support for this
notion -- that a "killer user experience" is enough to achieve major
success. People spend a lot of time consuming web content. If the iPad
just "feels" much better for this task, that might do it.

[snip]

> What I will sit back and find amusing will be the tireless parade of
> iPadalikes that will launch even before the iPad has time to be
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> use as "tablets."  These sure-to-released Frankenpads will fail
> miserably, and deservedly so.

Heh. See the post I just made about the Archos 9.

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Jon Ribbens - 12 Feb 2010 15:32 GMT
> However, having said that, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing-
> Apple has an almost uncanny sense of what the public wants in consumer
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> hit a nerve in buyers that attract them to that designers' work, and that's
> what Apple currently seems to do.

I think you're right on the macro scale, for example whether or not to
create the iPad in the first place, but on the small scale of "should
it have an SD card slot built-in", I would be very surprised if they
leave that entirely up to "intuition" and don't do any research.

> Plus, to be fair, as far as "getting things fantastically right" we're
> really talking about the iPod and iPhone.

I'd have to include laptops in that; from my perspective, Mac laptops
seem to be very popular. Desktops on the other hand, are a different
story.
ZnU - 12 Feb 2010 20:58 GMT
> > However, having said that, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing-
> > Apple has an almost uncanny sense of what the public wants in consumer
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> it have an SD card slot built-in", I would be very surprised if they
> leave that entirely up to "intuition" and don't do any research.

I would be *extremely* surprised if Apple did research into this sort of
question. The truth is, it's not really hard to develop this kind of
intuition, if you invest thousands of hours in paying close attention to
the market for a decade or so <g>.

> > Plus, to be fair, as far as "getting things fantastically right" we're
> > really talking about the iPod and iPhone.
>
> I'd have to include laptops in that; from my perspective, Mac laptops
> seem to be very popular. Desktops on the other hand, are a different
> story.

Well, it's a lot harder to tell with desktops, because you don't see
them in cafes too often.

That said, Apple has sold more laptops than desktops for several years
now. The consumer market has been generally drifting in this direction,
and Apple's sales are obviously more skewed toward consumers than those
of the average Wintel vendor. Additionally, Apple's strengths with
respect to integrated design matter more for laptops than for desktops.

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Your Name - 12 Feb 2010 22:32 GMT
> That said, Apple has sold more laptops than desktops for several years
> now. The consumer market has been generally drifting in this direction,
<snip>

That's partly because laptops are the new "must have" fad. Many people
buying a laptop rarely or even never take them off their desk.
-hh - 13 Feb 2010 01:49 GMT
> > That said, Apple has sold more laptops than desktops for several years
> > now. The consumer market has been generally drifting in this direction,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That's partly because laptops are the new "must have" fad. Many people
> buying a laptop rarely or even never take them off their desk.

Maybe so, but how is this reconciled within the USA PC market, where
price is king, since on a per-feature basis, a Laptop invariably costs
more than a Desktop?

Afterall, while IIRC Apple's Laptops > Desktops by roughly 75:25
split, the split for 'untrendy' PCs is also Laptops > Desktops,
although a few years behind Apple in the trend:  Laptops crossed over
the 50:50 in IIRC the 2008 statistics.

-hh
John Navas - 13 Feb 2010 18:18 GMT
>> > That said, Apple has sold more laptops than desktops for several years
>> > now. The consumer market has been generally drifting in this direction,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>price is king, since on a per-feature basis, a Laptop invariably costs
>more than a Desktop?

Size and convenience.

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Best regards,
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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 04:51 GMT
> > That said, Apple has sold more laptops than desktops for several years
> > now. The consumer market has been generally drifting in this direction,
> <snip>
>
> That's partly because laptops are the new "must have" fad. Many people
> buying a laptop rarely or even never take them off their desk.

With a BookEndz dock and external display, keyboard, trackball and
back-up harddisk, a laptop will effectively be used as a desktop when on
the, eh, desktop. And be used as a laptop in meeting rooms etc.
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Steve de Mena - 09 Feb 2010 12:14 GMT
> The iPad will be the same way, most likely.  It was industrial-strength
> stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
> particularly with a kludgey external reader available.

Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?  That's the new
rule here, I am told.

Steve
Your Name - 09 Feb 2010 20:04 GMT
> > > >> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I
> am
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
> particularly with a kludgey external reader available.

It's amazing how many people think because they want something, then
everyone else does too ... especially those Americans (no doubt the
loud-mouthed minority) who believe they know what's best for the entire
planet.  :-\

I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY who
plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card in their
camera which stays there permanently. When they want to transfer photos to
their computer, get them printed, etc., they simply plug the whole camera in
via USB. Even putting a card slot on the iMac was pointless and will never
be used by most people.
Richard B. Gilbert - 09 Feb 2010 20:27 GMT
>>>>>> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I
>> am
>>>>>> saying.  Live with it.
<snip>

> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY who
> plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card in their
> camera which stays there permanently. When they want to transfer photos to
> their computer, get them printed, etc., they simply plug the whole camera in
> via USB. Even putting a card slot on the iMac was pointless and will never
> be used by most people.

I know of no computer that you can plug those memory cards into!

You CAN plug the cards into a USB dongle and plug that into your
computer.  That's what I do on those infrequent occasions when I wish to
move data from a phone or a camera to my computer.

The Motorola SYN1114A is such a dongle and what I use together with an
SD to Micro SD adapter.  It's entirely possible that there may be a way
to connect the Micro SD card more directly.  I haven't looked for one.
Read e to save a tree = iPad - 10 Feb 2010 00:29 GMT
On Feb 9, 3:27 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> >>>>>> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I
> >> am
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> SD to Micro SD adapter.  It's entirely possible that there may be a way
> to connect the Micro SD card more directly.  I haven't looked for one.

Everyone can do this with an iPhone dongle too right now. The little
SD card holder plugs into the bottom of the iPhone and adds a plug in
SD card slot to the iPhone.  You can upload and download to the iPhone
from SD cards for unlimited memory. Perfect for viewing photos from
your camera while away from a PC. The iPad will work in a similar way
with an Apple dongle too. OS 4 will add better file system support to
the iPhone according to Apple.
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 01:54 GMT
In article
<4fd75c02-7a68-426e-8c4f-88eed6e6f84d@j31g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

> Everyone can do this with an iPhone dongle too right now. The little
> SD card holder plugs into the bottom of the iPhone and adds a plug in
> SD card slot to the iPhone.  You can upload and download to the iPhone
> from SD cards for unlimited memory. Perfect for viewing photos from
> your camera while away from a PC.

not supported on the iphone.

> The iPad will work in a similar way
> with an Apple dongle too. OS 4 will add better file system support to
> the iPhone according to Apple.

apple has not said anything about os 4. they haven't really said
anything publically about 3.2 either other than what was demoed.
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 06:37 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220101754577755%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

> In article
> <4fd75c02-7a68-426e-8c4f-88eed6e6f84d@j31g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> apple has not said anything about os 4. they haven't really said
> anything publically about 3.2 either other than what was demoed.

As long as ATT is selling "unlimited data" to iPad, and Apple wants them to
sell it, it will NEVER be tethered and NEVER have removeable memory you can  
write downloaded data to.....bandwidth suicide.

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Larry

nospam - 10 Feb 2010 07:11 GMT
> As long as ATT is selling "unlimited data" to iPad, and Apple wants them to
> sell it, it will NEVER be tethered and NEVER have removeable memory you can  
> write downloaded data to.....bandwidth suicide.

it's unlikely the ipad will tether to usb, but it can probably connect
to some other device that can tether. it's really up to at&t, not
apple.
Per Rønne - 10 Feb 2010 09:04 GMT
> > As long as ATT is selling "unlimited data" to iPad, and Apple wants them to
> > sell it, it will NEVER be tethered and NEVER have removeable memory you can
> > write downloaded data to.....bandwidth suicide.
>
> it's unlikely the ipad will tether to usb, but it can probably connect
> to some other device that can tether.

And that is exactly what we want. To use our iPhones to thether to the
internet when no WiFi is available.

> it's really up to at&t,

Certainly not. After all, 95% of the planet's population is outside the
domain of the AT&T ...

> not apple.

They can choose not to support the bluetooth protocol that will support
tethering with an iPhone or similarly device.

This will just lead to people jailbreaking their iPhones in order to
install MyWi - which turns the iPhone into a WiFi hotspot.
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 09:10 GMT
>> As long as ATT is selling "unlimited data" to iPad, and Apple wants them to
>> sell it, it will NEVER be tethered and NEVER have removeable memory you can  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to some other device that can tether. it's really up to at&t, not
> apple.

How do you know it is up to AT&T?

Steve
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 16:27 GMT
Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:ce2dnRP7hs-
H5e_WnZ2dnUVZ_jJi4p2d@giganews.com:

>>> As long as ATT is selling "unlimited data" to iPad, and Apple wants them to
>>> sell it, it will NEVER be tethered and NEVER have removeable memory you can  
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Steve

Because throughout sellphone history, the SAME phones have been sold WITH a
lot of common features on one carrier (Alltel) but NOT on another carrier
(Verizon) on the SAME phone.  The difference in the hobbling has always
been the CARRIER, not the manufacturer.

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Larry

Steve de Mena - 11 Feb 2010 08:28 GMT
> Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:ce2dnRP7hs-
> H5e_WnZ2dnUVZ_jJi4p2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> (Verizon) on the SAME phone.  The difference in the hobbling has always
> been the CARRIER, not the manufacturer.

Apple's relationship with AT&T is not in the same league as those
other relationships.

Steve
Larry - 11 Feb 2010 09:26 GMT
Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:ib-
dnfQtIu0tIu7WnZ2dnUVZ_tZi4p2d@giganews.com:

> Apple's relationship with AT&T is not in the same league as those
> other relationships.
>
> Steve

You're right.  How silly of me to doubt the omnipotent.

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Larry

nospam - 10 Feb 2010 20:35 GMT
> > it's unlikely the ipad will tether to usb, but it can probably connect
> > to some other device that can tether. it's really up to at&t, not
> > apple.
>
> How do you know it is up to AT&T?

because right now, tethering functionality is built into the iphone and
works in many other countries. at&t said they'd offer it by the end of
2009 too, although some people have managed to circumvent the
restriction.
Per Rønne - 10 Feb 2010 09:04 GMT
> As long as ATT is selling "unlimited data" to iPad, and Apple wants them to
> sell it, it will NEVER be tethered

Nevertheless, in lots of other countries the iPhone can be used to
tether a laptop. In my own country, Denmark, all carriers have such
contracts.

For pure data traffic, my own carrier, 3.dk, offers a data plan with
unlimited access and 16 Mbit/s. Price $58 a month, 25% VAT included. In
the cheap end it is $9 a month with a max of 50 MB and 20 cents for each
1 MB extra.

For smartphones you can get a plan that costs $70 a month with data
traffic up til 20 GB a month [no extra pay if you use more but if you do
so, the company can reduce the speed] and free sms and mms. Up till 300
minutes of telephone calls a month.

I have chosen the cheapest option, $14 a month. I pay for every
telephone call, every sms and mms I send - and I have up till 100 MB of
data traffic for free. I pay 14 cent for every MB extra with a maximum
of $35 a month for the data traffic. Why the cheapest? Because I don't
use the phone that much and usually the iPhone connects through WiFi. At
home and at the office I would use my IP telephone. And when teaching?
Well, it isn't smart for teachers to receive cell phone calls in class,
and it would be even worse to call in front of the Sixth Formers!
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Per Erik Rønne
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Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 02:40 GMT
>>>>>>> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I
>>> am
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I know of no computer that you can plug those memory cards into!

You're joking, right?  Most new desktops and laptops have card readers
built-in.  All three of my Dell 24" monitors have them too.

Steve
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 06:40 GMT
>>>>>>>> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I
>>>> am
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Steve

The cheapest netbook on the shelf has a fully functional SDHC card slot
that WinXP supports fully...just like the most expensive desktop.

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Larry

Your Name - 10 Feb 2010 05:26 GMT
> >>>>>> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I
> >> am
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I know of no computer that you can plug those memory cards into!
<snip>

Apple's new iMacs introduced late last 2009 have a card slot in the side ...
don't ask me what formats it works with though (I see absolutyely zero point
in it, so I've never bothered to read about them). The, rumored, up-coming
new MacBook Pros may also gain the same feature.
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 05:29 GMT
> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > I know of no computer that you can plug those memory cards into!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in it, so I've never bothered to read about them). The, rumored, up-coming
> new MacBook Pros may also gain the same feature.

an sd card slot was added in last year's macbook pros.
Your Name - 10 Feb 2010 20:06 GMT
> > "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > I know of no computer that you can plug those memory cards into!
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> an sd card slot was added in last year's macbook pros.

Opps! See, I find them so utterly useless that I skipped over that fact.
:-)

Apart from professional photographers, most normal people simply can't be
bothered juggling tiny little memory cards, let alone having more than one
... it's much easier just to plug the entire camera in via a USB cable.

There are even reports of some not-normal dimwits putting the memory cards
into the new iMac's DVD drive thanks to them being positioned so close
together on the edge.  :-\
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 00:45 GMT
>> an sd card slot was added in last year's macbook pros.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>bothered juggling tiny little memory cards, let alone having more than one
>... it's much easier just to plug the entire camera in via a USB cable.

Lots of people use many different kinds of memory cards routinely.

>There are even reports of some not-normal dimwits putting the memory cards
>into the new iMac's DVD drive thanks to them being positioned so close
>together on the edge.  :-\

Perhaps iFans are more clumsy than the "rest of us".  ;)

Signature

Best regards,
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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 02:39 GMT
> It's amazing how many people think because they want something, then
> everyone else does too ... especially those Americans (no doubt the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> via USB. Even putting a card slot on the iMac was pointless and will never
> be used by most people.

I have used the USB method maybe 2% of the time.  Otherwise I use a
card reader.

So now you can tell your friends you have met the one person in the
world who does this.

Steve
ZnU - 10 Feb 2010 06:35 GMT
> > It's amazing how many people think because they want something, then
> > everyone else does too ... especially those Americans (no doubt the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> So now you can tell your friends you have met the one person in the
> world who does this.

And this precisely illustrates the problem with this sort of discussion
in this sort of forum. It's a bunch of people who aren't representative
of the mainstream market sitting around making predictions about the
mainstream success of a product -- except half of them don't even seem
to have the first clue that they're not representative of the mainstream
market.

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 10 Feb 2010 07:10 GMT

> > I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
> > who plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I have used the USB method maybe 2% of the time.  Otherwise I use a
> card reader.

Wow.  That's 2% more than I have!

I honestly couldn't tell you where the USB port is on my Canon, or what
size the socket is.  The cable's still in plastic baggie it came in,
inside the camera's original box.
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 07:12 GMT
> I honestly couldn't tell you where the USB port is on my Canon, or what
> size the socket is.  The cable's still in plastic baggie it came in,
> inside the camera's original box.

it's probably a mini-usb. generally, camera usb connections are fairly
slow. they work in a pinch but they're certainly not ideal.
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 09:13 GMT
>> I honestly couldn't tell you where the USB port is on my Canon, or what
>> size the socket is.  The cable's still in plastic baggie it came in,
>> inside the camera's original box.
>
> it's probably a mini-usb. generally, camera usb connections are fairly
> slow. they work in a pinch but they're certainly not ideal.

I have three Canon cameras.  Their tech specs say they are all USB
2.0.  (5D Mark II, G9 and SD1200 IS).

Steve
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 09:09 GMT
>  
>>> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> size the socket is.  The cable's still in plastic baggie it came in,
> inside the camera's original box.

OP - Now you have met TWO people who use card readers.  Can you
imagine that?  TWO people in ONE day??

Steve
Your Name - 10 Feb 2010 20:21 GMT
> >>> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
> >>> who plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> OP - Now you have met TWO people who use card readers.  Can you
> imagine that?  TWO people in ONE day??

Wow, a whole two ... out of how many millions of people?? That's "really"
worth Apple including a card slot for. Geez, there are some morons out there
living in fantasy land. Anothr idiot to ignore ... at least the missing "s"
in its name is correct, it would never qualify as Mensa that's for sure.
:-\
-hh - 10 Feb 2010 22:59 GMT
> > >>> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
> > >>> who plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> worth Apple including a card slot for. Geez, there are some morons out there
> living in fantasy land....

Not sure which side of the fence I'll be placed for mentioning this,
but I'll dare to say that I've used both USB cable and dedicated
readers.   Of course, the dilemma with trying to pigeonhole this
statement is that I have cameras that use both SD/SDHC and CF.

So with all of this yelling for a built-in card reader slot, that slot
is going to be CF...right?  :-)

BTW, before anyone suggests that CF is dead, I don't disagree that SD
is the "80% Solution" presently within the general *consumer* market,
but interestingly, the new release higher end dSLR that I just bought
happens to be CF only.

-hh
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 00:47 GMT
>> OP - Now you have met TWO people who use card readers.  Can you
>> imagine that?  TWO people in ONE day??
>
>Wow, a whole two ... out of how many millions of people?? ...

You meet millions of people a day??
Or have you mastered hyperbole?  ;)

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Your Name - 11 Feb 2010 03:14 GMT
> >> OP - Now you have met TWO people who use card readers.  Can you
> >> imagine that?  TWO people in ONE day??
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You meet millions of people a day??
> Or have you mastered hyperbole?  ;)

I meant the millions using digital cameras.
Todd Allcock - 11 Feb 2010 16:11 GMT
> > >> OP - Now you have met TWO people who use card readers.  Can you
> > >> imagine that?  TWO people in ONE day??
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I meant the millions using digital cameras.

All of whom you've seemingly polled the picture transferring habits of...
Steve de Mena - 12 Feb 2010 00:54 GMT
>>>>> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
>>>>> who plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Wow, a whole two ... out of how many millions of people??

Out of the 10 or so that post here dufus.

Steve

That's "really"
> worth Apple including a card slot for. Geez, there are some morons out there
> living in fantasy land. Anothr idiot to ignore ... at least the missing "s"
> in its name is correct, it would never qualify as Mensa that's for sure.
> :-\
Your Name - 12 Feb 2010 01:41 GMT
> >>>>> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
> >>>>> who plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Out of the 10 or so that post here dufus.

That just proves you're non-existant level of intelligence.  ;-\
Steve de Mena - 12 Feb 2010 10:28 GMT
>>>>>>> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
>>>>>>> who plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> That just proves you're non-existant level of intelligence.  ;-\

OK. Maybe 11 or 12.

Steve
Per Rønne - 10 Feb 2010 09:34 GMT
>  
> > > I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> size the socket is.  The cable's still in plastic baggie it came in,
> inside the camera's original box.

I only use the cable to transfer pictures from my digital camera to my
Mac. It's just easier for me ... BTW, the SD card has a capacity of 8
GB.

And I have no problems to google for a SD card with a capacity of 64 GB:

<http://photo.blorge.com/2009/02/11/panasonic-to-release-64gb-sd-card-ev
entually-a-two-tb-card/>

which is the same as the max flash memory for an iPad. The link even
mentions an upcoming 2 TB card.

I see no need for photographers to upload the pictures on their SD cards
to an iPad. Unless, of course, they want to upload them further to a
service like EverNote. But then, of course, there is a solution for that
too. The Camera Connection Kit.
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Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

-hh - 10 Feb 2010 11:59 GMT
> > I honestly couldn't tell you where the USB port is on my Canon, or what
> > size the socket is.  The cable's still in plastic baggie it came in,
> > inside the camera's original box.

Its a standard USB-miniUSB cable, same as what the EU is standardizing
for cellphones (and already in use on Blackberries).   As such, you
may already have 2 or 3 unwrapped cords laying around (I do).

> I only use the cable to transfer pictures from my digital camera to my
> Mac. It's just easier for me ... BTW, the SD card has a capacity of 8
> GB.

From an operator's perspective, it is slightly easier than pulling the
card and using a reader.  However, reading directly from the camera
such as this isn't all upside:  there's downsides from its camera
battery consumption, plus many (virtually all?) camera implementations
of USB have performance bottlenecks inside the camera that result in
slow to very slow data transfer rates.  When you start to multiply out
the performance hit across a couple of GB of data, the issue becomes
pronounced.

> I see no need for photographers to upload the pictures on their SD cards
> to an iPad. Unless, of course, they want to upload them further to a
> service like EverNote. But then, of course, there is a solution for that
> too. The Camera Connection Kit.

Its going to be an interesting use case, and that there's evidently
already an Apple solution does suggest that they see it as something
that's going to be considered 'important enough' to a customer
segment...but by the same token, by not making it a built-in feature,
they either don't believe its going to be that common - - or don't
want it to be.

Time will tell.

Personally, I can see some amount of appeal to using the iPad to show
pictures to family - its easier than a laptop - but since I'm going to
generally want to "pre-digest" this content to cull the keepers, its
going to have to go through iPhoto (or equivalent) hours/days/weeks
beforehand.

Going the other direction of a storage device purely for my own needs,
I already own a digital wallet and knowing its capabilities, I know
that it would be foolish to try to replace it with an iPad:  the
digital wallet is much more compact in size, has better storage
capacity, fast I/O & battery life, cheaper, etc ... its a well
designed specialized device whose function can't be done better by
something that is more generalized.

-hh
Michelle Steiner - 10 Feb 2010 17:08 GMT
> I see no need for photographers to upload the pictures on their SD cards
> to an iPad.

How about to view them in a size larger than what they can see on the LDC
in the camera?  Seems to me that it would be more convenient than carrying
a laptop for the same purpose.

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Per Rønne - 10 Feb 2010 17:34 GMT
> > I see no need for photographers to upload the pictures on their SD cards
> > to an iPad.
>
> How about to view them in a size larger than what they can see on the LDC
> in the camera?  Seems to me that it would be more convenient than carrying
> a laptop for the same purpose.

Perhaps. Though I do have a digital camera I am in no way a
photographer.
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Per Erik Rønne
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Michelle Steiner - 10 Feb 2010 18:40 GMT
> > > I see no need for photographers to upload the pictures on their SD
> > > cards to an iPad.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Perhaps. Though I do have a digital camera I am in no way a
> photographer.

Back in the ancient days of film cameras, some photographers took a picture
with a Polaroid camera to preview what the picture would look like.  Some
even used a Polaroid back for their removable-back camera for the same
purpose.

Then they would make whatever adjustments, if any, they needed before
taking the "money shot".

I can easily see using the iPad for a similar purpose with a digital camera.

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Todd Allcock - 10 Feb 2010 05:50 GMT
> > Not necessarily- sometimes we can't get everything on our laundry list of
> > features, and have prioritize.  That's why the iPhone is so successful-
> > it does so many things well, that most users overlook its shortcomings.

> > The iPad will be the same way, most likely.  It was industrial-strength
> > stupidity not to include an SD slot, but it won't be a deal-breaker,
> > particularly with a kludgey external reader available.
>
> It's amazing how many people think because they want something, then
> everyone else does too ...

Is that any more arrogant that assuming if you don't need it, no one else
does either?
Let's look at it his way- here's a device that won't even be out for two
months, and I've seen three peripherals for it being discussed: a keyboard,
a camera connector and a card reader.  Two of those three share a purpose-
getting digicam pictures onto an iPad.  Apparently at least _some_
people are thinking about that task- enough for kludgey plug-in
peripherals to be spawned.  

> especially those Americans (no doubt the
> loud-mouthed minority) who believe they know what's best for the entire
> planet.  :-\

Being a little hard on the gang in Cupertino, aren't you?  ;)

> I run my own "tech support" business, and I know of absolutely NOBODY who
> plugs memory cards into their computer, etc. They have one card in their
> camera which stays there permanently. When they want to transfer photos to
> their computer, get them printed, etc., they simply plug the whole camera in
> via USB.

Perhaps that's because their computer didn't come with a card reader, AND
their camera came with a USB cable, making connecting the camera the only
out-of-the-box, no-extra-cost solution available to them?  It works, and
it's free.  If the iPad includes a USB host port to plug the camera's USB
cable into into without an extra-cost iPod dock adapter dongle I promise
I'll stop griping about the lack of SD slot!  ;)

For me ,however, card readers are till the preferred solution because
they represent one (or more) fewer USB cable(s) I need lying around my
desk to connect crap to my PC.

> Even putting a card slot on the iMac was pointless and will never
> be used by most people.

Much like Firewire, an oft-touted Mac-over-PC advantage!  Those that
don't want or need it don't have to use it, but those that do are _very_
glad it's there.  It's inclusion costs virtually nothing in incremental
manufacturing cost, but the aftermarket "penalty" to add it after the
fact is many, many times higher.

...just a "loud-mouthed American's" two cents worth...
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 16:23 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:MQrcn.37664$Fm7.32956
@newsfe16.iad:

> Much like Firewire, an oft-touted Mac-over-PC advantage!  Those that
> don't want or need it don't have to use it, but those that do are _very_
> glad it's there.  It's inclusion costs virtually nothing in incremental
> manufacturing cost, but the aftermarket "penalty" to add it after the
> fact is many, many times higher.

Er, ah, there's no Firewire on the new Macs....

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Larry

Jochem Huhmann - 10 Feb 2010 16:49 GMT
> Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:MQrcn.37664$Fm7.32956
> @newsfe16.iad:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Er, ah, there's no Firewire on the new Macs....

Larry, there's exactly one (1) Mac without Firewire and that's the
entry-level MacBook.

       Jochem

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Michelle Steiner - 10 Feb 2010 17:03 GMT
> Larry, there's exactly one (1) Mac without Firewire and that's the
> entry-level MacBook.

Shhh.  don't confuse him with facts.

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Per Rønne - 10 Feb 2010 17:29 GMT
> > Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:MQrcn.37664$Fm7.32956
> > @newsfe16.iad:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >> manufacturing cost, but the aftermarket "penalty" to add it after the
> >> fact is many, many times higher.

> > Er, ah, there's no Firewire on the new Macs....
>
> Larry, there's exactly one (1) Mac without Firewire and that's the
> entry-level MacBook.

Which I have in a model from 2007. With fw400.

I know this has changed in later models. I use an external 1 TB fw400
harddisk for Time Machine backup on this MacBook.
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-hh - 10 Feb 2010 16:49 GMT
> > Much like Firewire, an oft-touted Mac-over-PC advantage!  Those that
> > don't want or need it don't have to use it, but those that do are _very_
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Er, ah, there's no Firewire on the new Macs....

True, the Air and MacBook doesn't have them.

But the Mac Pro does have Firewire.
So too for both iMacs, the mini, as well as the 13", 15" and 17"
MacBook Pros.

That's 2 without and 6 with Firewire.

(or 7 with, if you count the 21" iMac separate from the 27")

6/(2+6) = 75% of their product line.

-hh
Your Name - 10 Feb 2010 20:15 GMT
Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:

> > Er, ah, there's no Firewire on the new Macs....
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> 6/(2+6) = 75% of their product line.

or 7 / (2+7) = 77.8%

But, you'll only confuse Loser Lary with percentages. He can ALMOST do the
addition part, but the numbers 6 and 7 are too high for him to cope with -
once you get past 5 he's run out of fingers (he needs the other hand to
point to each finger as he counts).
Henk O. - 11 Feb 2010 10:08 GMT
> Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> once you get past 5 he's run out of fingers (he needs the other hand to
> point to each finger as he counts).

There are three kinds of people on this planet: those who can count and
those who can't.
Steve de Mena - 11 Feb 2010 08:29 GMT
>>> Much like Firewire, an oft-touted Mac-over-PC advantage!  Those that
>>> don't want or need it don't have to use it, but those that do are _very_
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> -hh

Why didn't you just say "The majority of current Macs DO have
Firewire"?  Would have saved us all some time.

Steve
-hh - 11 Feb 2010 10:32 GMT
> Why didn't you just say "The majority of current Macs DO have
> Firewire"?

Because it was more expedient to provide that amount of data upfront.

>  Would have saved us all some time.

Ya really think so?

Wouldn't that have left an opening for a stupidly long & fruitless  /
"Is Not!"  /  "Is Too!" / "Where's your Proof?" / etc?

-hh
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 20:35 GMT
> Er, ah, there's no Firewire on the new Macs....

there certainly is, and it was just upgraded to firewire 800 across the
board.

only the entry level macbook and macbook air lack it.
Fa-groon - 08 Feb 2010 23:21 GMT
>>>> and do you really want a pocket full of cards?
>>> Maybe it's just 1 card permanently inserted into the iPad.  Or maybe I
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Steve

And you are correct.
KDT - 09 Feb 2010 05:23 GMT
> > In article <HuudnUY3C-CYc_LWnZ2dnUVZ_gJi4...@giganews.com>, Steve de
> > Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

And Android devices should let you use more than the anemic built in
memory to store apps.....
Steve de Mena - 09 Feb 2010 12:06 GMT
>>> In article <HuudnUY3C-CYc_LWnZ2dnUVZ_gJi4...@giganews.com>, Steve de
>>> Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> And Android devices should let you use more than the anemic built in
> memory to store apps.....

Why do you keep bringing up the Android?  Are we discussing that here?

Steve
Jochem Huhmann - 09 Feb 2010 19:26 GMT
> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I am
> saying.  Live with it.

If it had, you'd be complaining about everything you couldn't do with
it. And if you could use it to store things and apps you'd be
complaining about every little bit of trouble you run into while doing
so. So, why should Apple include a slot? It would be silly to do so.

       Jochem

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longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
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Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 02:37 GMT
>> The iPad should have a memory card slot built in.  That is what I am
>> saying.  Live with it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>         Jochem

It's not silly to the tens of thousands of public posts, twitter
comments, etc wanting it.

Steve
Alan Baker - 08 Feb 2010 19:44 GMT
> >> I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
> >> card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> IT'S MY CHOICE.

Ignoring the fact that you can use cards with the iPad...

> >> In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
> >> nearly an infinite amount of content with me.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve

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Richard B. Gilbert - 08 Feb 2010 19:53 GMT
>>>> I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
>>>> card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>> ipod classic. the ipad already has plenty of space for most people.
>> Lame argument.

You don't like it?  Design and implement your own doing it your way!  If
your idea catches on, you could get rich.  If it doesn't, at least
you'll have learned something.
Fa-groon - 08 Feb 2010 23:50 GMT
>>>> I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
>>>> card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Ignoring the fact that you can use cards with the iPad...

Not really, Alan. You can connect an optional card reader to the iPad via the
dock connection, but my understanding is that's only for moving photos on and
off of the device. OTOH,  the card tray in the Wi-Fi + G3 models is only for
telephone SIM cards which enable the iPad to work on networks other than
AT&T. For instance I have several unlocked cellphones and one US SIM card
from AT&T. When I swap that card between phones, I carry my telephone number,
and all my contact info from one phone to the next. When in Europe, I can
place a European SIM in one of those phones' slot and instantly get GSM
service in whatever country I've bought a card for. In England, I use
Telefonica, in Italy it's TIM, in Germany E-Plus, etc. Or, these days it is
possible to buy a card from a company called "Roam Simple - Europe" that
ostensibly will work most everywhere in EU.

I don't think that either the optional card-reader or the SIM card tray can
be used for general purpose portable storage. I could be wrong, but the
description of the card reader is pretty specific in its application, and the
SIM card tray only comes on the G3 enabled models, not the Wi-Fi only models.
nospam - 08 Feb 2010 23:54 GMT
> > Ignoring the fact that you can use cards with the iPad...
>
> Not really, Alan. You can connect an optional card reader to the iPad via the
> dock connection, but my understanding is that's only for moving photos on and
> off of the device.

until it ships, nobody knows what it can and cannot do.

> OTOH,  the card tray in the Wi-Fi + G3 models is only for
> telephone SIM cards which enable the iPad to work on networks other than
> AT&T.

it works with at&t

> For instance I have several unlocked cellphones and one US SIM card
> from AT&T. When I swap that card between phones, I carry my telephone number,
> and all my contact info from one phone to the next.

and that would do what in an ipad, which isn't a phone? its sim is for
data only, and it's unlocked so put whatever sim you want in it. the
only issue is that it's a microsim, which are not as common but
certainly not new.
Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 03:22 GMT
>>> Ignoring the fact that you can use cards with the iPad...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> only issue is that it's a microsim, which are not as common but
> certainly not new.

It was just an illustration. The SIM card slot in an iPad is likely ONLY for
the G3 data service providers.
Fa-groon - 11 Feb 2010 07:06 GMT
>>> Ignoring the fact that you can use cards with the iPad...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> it works with at&t

Of course it works with AT&T, that's the default.

>> For instance I have several unlocked cellphones and one US SIM card
>> from AT&T. When I swap that card between phones, I carry my telephone
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> only issue is that it's a microsim, which are not as common but
> certainly not new.

It was an illustration (obviously) of what a SIM card in a wireless
communication device is for.
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 05:08 GMT
Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C795E3590016E7CDF01846D8
@news.giganews.com:

> off of the device.

It makes NO reference to moving photos OFF the device.  It's a way to load
photos ONTO the iPad, so they can be emailed over "The Network" for fun and
profit.

If it had a writer, the hackers would soon be writing iPad software and
libraries from the iPad to any card you have.....

I don't believe it will write anything for this reason.

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nospam - 09 Feb 2010 06:19 GMT
> It makes NO reference to moving photos OFF the device.

nowhere does it say it blocks it either. maybe it will, maybe it won't.
nobody knows until it actually ships and tries it out.

maybe a developer can access it, so even if out of the box it doesn't
write, a week or two later, there will be an app for that.

> It's a way to load
> photos ONTO the iPad, so they can be emailed over "The Network" for fun and
> profit.

exactly what the vast majority of people will be doing.

> If it had a writer, the hackers would soon be writing iPad software and
> libraries from the iPad to any card you have.....

nonsense. you clearly don't understand what you're talking about (gee
what a surprise that is).

and why do you give a flying f.ck it writes or not, you aren't going to
be getting one anyway.
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 09:30 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:080220102219356668%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

> and why do you give a flying f.ck it writes or not, you aren't going to
> be getting one anyway.

Why?  Because these devices, your precious iPhone and the religion that
goes with it;  this new iPad and the new religion it will spawn, has the
potential to change the face of personal computing, forever.  It has the
potential of taking personal computing out of the hands of the USER,
who, until now, has made all the decision about what goes in, what runs
on and where it goes out...away from that USER and a f.cking greedy
corporate empire will make all those decisions YOU and your fawning
fanboiz have given away to them, FOR YOU.  You seem to have been able to
accept whatever THEY want you to do....or, more importantly, NOT DO...on
your own hardware, and are more than willing to pay exhorbitant prices
for the "priviledge".

This religious virus has the potential to spread across computing to
those of us who cherish the simple control we have over our computing
device that belongs to US...not to THEM.  Once the cloud takes control
and a new generation of blind sheep is bred to love it, to pay for it,
at any cost THEY can dream up...ever increasing prices the sheep just
fork out for, without question because of some stupid corporate loyalty
you can see here, every day....there will be no turning back.  It will
be the end of our little piece of the pie, forever.

That's why I give a flying f.ck whether it writes or not...and what
files it writes or not.  I'm really sorry you are too stupid and too
blind and so hypnotized by the glitz you can't see beyond the end of
your nose.

Now, come tell us all, like a hypnotized zombie, it can't happen, it
won't happen, how crazy any of us who worry over these toys are....the
constant fanboi bullshit line....

Everybody will FINALLY be running the f.cking WebTV appliance they've
tried to sell to us for the last 20 years....

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Larry

nospam - 09 Feb 2010 16:01 GMT
> Why?  Because these devices, your precious iPhone and the religion that
> goes with it;  this new iPad and the new religion it will spawn, has the
> potential to change the face of personal computing, forever.  

here's a clue, it's changing anyway, regardless of what apple does.
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 22:03 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220100801210781%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

>> Why?  Because these devices, your precious iPhone and the religion that
>> goes with it;  this new iPad and the new religion it will spawn, has the
>> potential to change the face of personal computing, forever.  
>
> here's a clue, it's changing anyway, regardless of what apple does.

So, if "they" decide you'll only be allowed to buy a car that goes only 55
mph, we should just all bend over, drop our drawers and take it without
resistance, encouraging "them" to do more by buying this new car at 3 times
the price, right?

What the f.ck is wrong with you people?!  THAT'S SICK!

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

nospam - 09 Feb 2010 22:16 GMT
> So, if "they" decide you'll only be allowed to buy a car that goes only 55
> mph, we should just all bend over, drop our drawers and take it without
> resistance, encouraging "them" to do more by buying this new car at 3 times
> the price, right?

straw man.

and cars have a lot of regulations. try removing the emissions control
devices or tampering with the airbags on an existing car or build your
own and try getting it registered for use on public roads, see how well
that works out.
Jochem Huhmann - 09 Feb 2010 19:23 GMT
> Why?  Because these devices, your precious iPhone and the religion that
> goes with it;  this new iPad and the new religion it will spawn, has the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> your own hardware, and are more than willing to pay exhorbitant prices
> for the "priviledge".

Larry, you're certainly right in one thing: The iPhone and the iPod
touch and the iPad make a really hard cut: There are only users and
developers for it. All users are the same and all developers are the
same and there's nothing between them.

With PCs there were users and power-users and developers. The
power-users could tinker and play around and install fishy smelling
things and look down at the users while looking up at the developers.
With the iDevices this has changed. There is no room for power-users and
enthusiasts anymore. Everyone can do everything that's possible and just
being a bit more curious and clever than your mom doesn't help a bit,
you can just tap at what's there and that's it.

On the other hand, being a developer and distributing and selling your
stuff is simpler than ever before. You can freely download a SDK and
code away. For a meager $99 you can even sell your stuff to all of the
world. There's nothing between you and wealth/fame/success than a good
idea and the ability to code. But you need to have $99 and a good idea
and the ability to code. Not much, really.

The hate of all the tinkerers and amateurs is exactly because of this:
Just being a tiny bit more curious or more lonely and investing hours of
googling and trying does not buy you any status anymore. You need to
have some balls and some brain to get something real done now. What's
wrong with this? Nothing. Somewhere in India there's a 9-year old who
has written and sold his first iPhone apps.

> This religious virus has the potential to spread across computing to
> those of us who cherish the simple control we have over our computing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you can see here, every day....there will be no turning back.  It will
> be the end of our little piece of the pie, forever.

You're old, man. The world is changing, as it always does and you're not
prepared for it anymore. Nothing wrong with this, we will all see this.
Some sooner, some later. But turning to hate and to foam at your mouth
won't change anything, really. Be curious and embrace it and try the
future. Maybe there are things in it you will like, still.

> Everybody will FINALLY be running the f.cking WebTV appliance they've
> tried to sell to us for the last 20 years....

Of course not. The iPad will not be everything. In fact it will be only
a part of it. There will be other devices and Android and there will be
PCs and Linux and even GPL-apps for the iPad. Things aren't just black
and white.

Larry, you're putting *so* much time into your hate. What about turning
positive? You're a bright guy and you can write. Don't waste your time,
use it. Buy an iPad when it's out, get a free blog, write about and
criticize apps and features, be hard and tough and honest about it and
people will listen to you and love you for it.

And of course you're basically right anyway. If one day there will be a
government that prescribes an iDevice for all of us and forbids all
other computers, I will jump off my desk and hack it and fight it up to
my last drop of blood and I will think of you. Hey, I will even use the
codename "Larry" in honour of you. Until then, relax a bit and look at
the bright side. Maybe things aren't that worse at all and maybe there's
more good coming from it than bad. That's living, you have to be part of
it. Hate will never change the world.

       Jochem

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"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 21:14 GMT
> You're old, man. The world is changing, as it always does and you're not
> prepared for it anymore. Nothing wrong with this, we will all see this.
> Some sooner, some later. But turning to hate and to foam at your mouth
> won't change anything, really. Be curious and embrace it and try the
> future. Maybe there are things in it you will like, still.

One of the (few) advantages of age is historical perspective. Young people
embrace gratuitous change often without ever foreseeing or understanding the
consequences until it is too late. It's two different perspectives, true, but
in times past, younger generations revered the wisdom of age, and as a result
"change" was a lot more positive and less of it was negative than it is today
where youth is worshiped and where young people think that they have all the
answers and don't listen to the older generations at all.
Jochem Huhmann - 09 Feb 2010 21:20 GMT
>> You're old, man. The world is changing, as it always does and you're not
>> prepared for it anymore. Nothing wrong with this, we will all see this.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> where youth is worshiped and where young people think that they have all the
> answers and don't listen to the older generations at all.  

Absolutely true.

(I'm not *that* young anymore, mind you)

       Jochem

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"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Steve de Mena - 09 Feb 2010 12:12 GMT
>> It makes NO reference to moving photos OFF the device.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> exactly what the vast majority of people will be doing.

Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?

Steve
-hh - 09 Feb 2010 12:22 GMT
> >> It makes NO reference to moving photos OFF the device.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?

The presentation did say that the device has wireless capability.
In fact, I think it was WiFi standard; 3G optional.

Similarly, that it has an email function.
And email attachments.

From a consumer acceptability perspective, there's been an acceptance
of wireless transfers of data on small handheld devices, telephones
and laptops now for over a decade.  So that's not a new precedence,
nor are there any overt indicators that the consumer base is
gravitating back towards wired / tethered devices.

If you have something clearly contrary to that trend, then cough up
the reference, Steve.

-hh
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 21:50 GMT
-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote in news:2f7c2b8f-6c8b-4e84-acd2-
e4eaf33c5f94@c4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

> The presentation did say that the device has wireless capability.
> In fact, I think it was WiFi standard; 3G optional.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> -hh

I guess it wouldn't matter, anyways.  The new movie is 1.6GB on my 16GB
SDHC plugged into the Nokia N800 Linux tablet.  It's a DivX movie iPad
won't play so there's no need to worry about it.

6 months after it's out, let's ask the owners what's missing they want it
to do and see....

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

-hh - 09 Feb 2010 22:01 GMT
> > The presentation did say that the device has wireless capability.
> > In fact, I think it was WiFi standard; 3G optional.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I guess it wouldn't matter, anyways.

Probably not.  My response to Steve was essentially because he was
trying to lash out at others (here, it was nospam) for an item that I
called him on.

> The new movie is 1.6GB on my 16GB
> SDHC plugged into the Nokia N800 Linux tablet.  It's a DivX movie iPad
> won't play so there's no need to worry about it.

A related thought to the tangent of "desirements for infinite
memory" (sic) through expension cards is that there's also the cost
implications of such an approach.   I vaguely recall someone
mentioning a 32GB memory card for this (SDHC, probably), which
prompted me to do a quick price check:   looks like they start at
roughly $75 each, and if you want to get a non-slow (Class 4 or 6)
card from a reasonably reputable ('heard of them before') brand,
closer to $100 each.   Thus, the potential is that people are
complaining that a $500 device costs too much while they're
simultaneously suggesting that they're going to have their proverbial
stack of a dozen cards for 'infinite' storage which will set them back
$1000 or so.   YA example of tail wagging the dog.

> 6 months after it's out, let's ask the owners what's missing they want it
> to do and see....

A good point, since a failure to recognize that products evolve and
advance over time seems to be becoming an increasing trend - - by
today's standards, the Wright brothers would have been roundly
criticized for failing to deliver at least a Boeing 777 on their first
try.  These expectations are a tad ... disjointed from reality.

-hh
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 22:37 GMT
-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote in news:bbdb8b03-e1b1-46e7-
83a6-30b2189ecb60@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

> A related thought to the tangent of "desirements for infinite
> memory" (sic) through expension cards is that there's also the cost
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> stack of a dozen cards for 'infinite' storage which will set them back
> $1000 or so.   YA example of tail wagging the dog.

I know it's very hard to believe, in an environment that doesn't allow
removeable, unhobbled memory at all, but the Nokia N800 has TWO SDHC
card slots...one inside the removeable battery compartment cover on the
back for more permanent storage like you'd keep the map files on, and
one inside a handy little rubber door under the easel stand bale along
the bottom, more like you'd use a removeable storage drive for.  Each
card is automatically unmounted from the OS by a little magnetic sensor
with the magnet mounted on the door, itself.  Unlike Windows, you don't
need to use software to unmount them.  When you close the back, or
rubber door, the magnet hits the sensor and Linux mounts the cards as
full storage units, even mapping the files on the drives automatically
for the various functions the files would be used for.

16GB SDHC cards are becoming dirt cheap, making fully replaceable 32GB
storage very easy and cheap, indeed.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=209337284&listingid=32516417
All of my 16GB cards are these Trancend Class 6 cards and are very fast,
indeed, in both PC and Linux tablets and transfer massive amounts of
data between them in just a few minutes using file managers in both.  A
little SD card storage pad holds sixteen 16GB cards securely inside the
tiny carrying bag with the Linux tablet, its Bluetooth folding keyboard,
its extra battery, and other accessories such as its USB adapter that
allows almost any USB device (printer/mouse/keyboard/self-powered hard
drives/CD-DVD Drive/USB headset-mic for Skype) to be connected to it.

It's amazing how much computer capability can fit in one hand so easily
carried around if its manufacturer doesn't hobble it all up into a
sellphone appliance.

There are several great ways to share files on these cards with others,
even sitting in a Waffle House!  I can connect someone else's computer
to a Bluetooth PAN or Wifi PAN and let their file manager simply connect
to the tablet's file system as a network drive for easy, fast transfers,
or probably more practical, just unmount the card and hand it to them to
plug into their tablet or laptop of netbook to mount on their OS as
Maemo Linux uses the STANDARD file structure of Windows they can all
access, even Macs.  New cards don't need to be initialized to use in the
tablets and are ready for use, straight out of the package.

Even the most simple minded user can be trained to use the N800's
removeable storage in 5 minutes because Maemo Linux's default file
structure only allows them access to the user's files, not the core
files stored by programs that could get them in trouble.  Root access to
those is easily accessed like any Linux system with the same attributes
for the more advanced user.  Nothing is locked beyond reach for the
advanced user.  There are even ports of Linux's best file manager free
for the downloading that open up all access to the files like Midnight
Commander on maemo.org's download section.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

nospam - 09 Feb 2010 22:41 GMT
> Even the most simple minded user can be trained to use the N800's
> removeable storage in 5 minutes

the appeal of something like an ipad is that it doesn't *need*
training. it's easy to use, which means more people will actually use
it.

that's why the iphone has such huge data usage, even though there are
other phones that offer the same features.
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 22:58 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220101441583059%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

>> Even the most simple minded user can be trained to use the N800's
>> removeable storage in 5 minutes
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that's why the iphone has such huge data usage, even though there are
> other phones that offer the same features.

Netbook owners already HAVE training and experience with Windows XP, which
is why they are NOT buying Vista or 7 or OSX or iPad they will have to
start all over again and use from scratch.

The functions of WinXP on their netbook is exactly the same as the one on
their desks....no training is required at all.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

nospam - 09 Feb 2010 23:01 GMT
> The functions of WinXP on their netbook is exactly the same as the one on
> their desks....no training is required at all.

the ipad is not a netbook.
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 06:35 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220101501011611%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

>> The functions of WinXP on their netbook is exactly the same as the one on
>> their desks....no training is required at all.
>
> the ipad is not a netbook.

You know that.  I know that!  But, the world is hyping this PoS as a
replacement for netbooks....making my comments very valid indeed.  If they
were touting it as a portable WebTV device or giant iTouch, I'd totally
agree with it....as an APPLIANCE.  But, they cannot help themselves trying
to sell it as Apple's new netbook tablet.  The whole net is eat up with it
being compared like that!

It isn't even a computer!  Computers have PORTS and USER STORAGE and do
useful things besides web browse, Box Office, Ebook reader and hand-carried
picture viewer.

(my tag still stands the test)

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

ZnU - 10 Feb 2010 06:44 GMT
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220101501011611%
> nospam@nospam.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> (my tag still stands the test)

What you're still failing to understand is that a device that can
replace a netbook *for many people* does not need to have a strict
superset of the features of a netbook, or even have feature parity. Most
users do not use every single feature of a device.

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Your Name - 10 Feb 2010 20:03 GMT
> > nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220101501011611%
> > nospam@nospam.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> What you're still failing to understand is <snip>

What Loser Larry fails to understand already fills all the books, computers,
newspapers and magazines ever made on the planet. You're wasting time on a
mental midget with an IQ in the negatives.
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 07:11 GMT
> It isn't even a computer!  Computers have PORTS and USER STORAGE and do
> useful things besides web browse, Box Office, Ebook reader and hand-carried
> picture viewer.

it has a multifunction dock connector port, which combines power, usb,
video and audio out (probably more but i don't feel like looking at the
pinouts) and as much as 64 gigs of storage.

with 140,000 apps, it does *quite* a bit more than having just a web
browser, ebook reader and a photo viewer.

that must mean it's a computer.
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 07:43 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220102311187551%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

>> It isn't even a computer!  Computers have PORTS and USER STORAGE and do
>> useful things besides web browse, Box Office, Ebook reader and hand-carried
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> that must mean it's a computer.

...so doesn't Xbox and it's not a computer, either.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

ZnU - 10 Feb 2010 06:19 GMT
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220101441583059%
> nospam@nospam.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> The functions of WinXP on their netbook is exactly the same as the one on
> their desks....no training is required at all.

This assumes that all of these people are actually comfortable with
Windows in the first place. Less savvy users can use a system every day
for years and not develop real proficiently or comfort with it.

We all know these people. They're the friends and family members who
call us for tech support... which often we can't even usefully provide
over the phone because they don't understand what they're looking at
well enough to usefully describe it:

"It says there's an error."

"What error?"

"I don't remember. Something with the file."

"What program were you in?"

"I don't know, where do I find that?"

etc.

These people will likely be better off with an iPad on day one than with
Windows on day 4768. Because in 4768 days of Windows use, they didn't
learn anything but how to perform a handful of actions by following
memorized steps; they never grasped abstractions like the file system or
really wrapped their heads around things like managing multiple
windows/apps.

Signature

"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Larry - 10 Feb 2010 07:40 GMT
ZnU <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in news:znu-01B933.01193410022010
@Port80.Individual.NET:

> "It says there's an error."
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> really wrapped their heads around things like managing multiple
> windows/apps.

This sounds like my attorney.....(c;]

He makes $1200/hour!  I've given up trying to figure out why.....

We're in the wrong business.....

Dilbert comic strip:

Pointy haired boss - "My laptop weighs too much.  What can I do to
lighten it?"

Wally (my personal favorite) - "You COULD delete some files."

Later panel Wally to Dilbert - "I only said he COULD."

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

-hh - 10 Feb 2010 00:40 GMT
> > A related thought to the tangent of "desirements for infinite
> > memory" (sic) through expension cards is that there's also the cost
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I know it's very hard to believe, in an environment that doesn't allow
> removeable, unhobbled memory at all, ...

Condescending sarcasm noted.

> ... but the Nokia N800 has TWO SDHC
> card slots...one inside the removeable battery compartment cover on the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> card is automatically unmounted from the OS by a little magnetic sensor
> with the magnet mounted on the door, itself.

A pretty nifty piece of engineering.   But when I put on my cynical
"business" hat, it sounds more like to me like they went through all
that effort because the Marketing dept probably told them that they
simply couldn't build the feature (storage capacity) in, since that
would raise the product's price point(s).

> 16GB SDHC cards are becoming dirt cheap, making fully replaceable 32GB
> storage very easy and cheap, indeed.
>
> http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=209337284&listingid=32516417

(glancing)   $38 each, which times two is $76 and generally consistent
with the 32GB cards I mentioned

> A little SD card storage pad holds sixteen 16GB cards securely inside the
> tiny carrying bag with the Linux tablet...

More widgets to get lost and lose, plus 16 * 16GB is $600 worth of
"accessories" for a netbook that only cost how much?  $200?

> It's amazing how much computer capability can fit in one hand so easily
> carried around if its manufacturer doesn't hobble it all up into a
> sellphone appliance.

Its amazing even with the business-oriented bundling bungling.

> Even the most simple minded user can be trained to use the N800's
> removeable storage in 5 minutes because Maemo Linux's default file
> structure only allows them access to the user's files, not the core
> files stored by programs that could get them in trouble.  Root access to
> those is easily accessed like any Linux system with the same attributes
> for the more advanced user.

While I get your point, Non-Root and Root access levels are hardly
new, nor unique to Linux.  As such, it simply isn't a product
differentiator...sorry.

-hh

PS:

> "iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

http://tinyurl.com/you-just-might-be-surprised

:-)
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 02:59 GMT
> the bottom, more like you'd use a removeable storage drive for.  Each
> card is automatically unmounted from the OS by a little magnetic sensor
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> full storage units, even mapping the files on the drives automatically
> for the various functions the files would be used for.

I just push my memory cards into my Windows systems --- they work --
and I pull them out when I am done.  No issues.  It's Linux that
requires "mounting".

Steve
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 06:50 GMT
Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:Ht-
dnb7ua8CbvO_WnZ2dnUVZ_hdi4p2d@giganews.com:

>> the bottom, more like you'd use a removeable storage drive for.  Each
>> card is automatically unmounted from the OS by a little magnetic sensor
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Steve

You'll find out about "mounting" and "DISMOUNTING" Windows some day when
you just jerk that card out of the Windows box without dismounting it and
that file you just wrote to it is trashed because YOU didn't close it with
SAFELY REMOVE HARDWARE and it didn't write that last sector held in cache
to the card.....

ALL operating systems require mounting and dismounting media drives....

Signature

"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 09:08 GMT
> Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:Ht-
> dnb7ua8CbvO_WnZ2dnUVZ_hdi4p2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> ALL operating systems require mounting and dismounting media drives....

Do you know how many years I have been using computers?  If I am
copying data to the removable drive I wait until its done.

NEVER had a problem.

I don't know what you mean about mounting drives in Windows.  There is
no command or option I can think of to do that, it just happens when I
pop in a CD....USB stick....SD card, etc.

Steve
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 22:43 GMT
-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote in news:bbdb8b03-e1b1-46e7-83a6-
30b2189ecb60@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

>  by
> today's standards, the Wright brothers would have been roundly
> criticized for failing to deliver at least a Boeing 777 on their first
> try.  These expectations are a tad ... disjointed from reality.

Not a good analogy at all.  The Wright Brothers had no access to even the
most rudimentary flight technology, so couldn't be critisized for features
that never existed.

Apple, on the other hand, has chosen to leave out the entire flight deck
control system already in existance on iPad and replaced it with a robot
you cannot control or access like thousands of other planes already in
existance for 30 years before the iPad's introduction.

Boeing didn't re-invent and introduce the Piper Cub and try to sell it as
the greatest flying machine ever invented or as a new technology that has
failed, miserably, in the past.....WebTV, Newton, cloud computing, Web-
based company-controlled JAVA apps....

Signature

"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

-hh - 10 Feb 2010 00:49 GMT
> >  by
> > today's standards, the Wright brothers would have been roundly
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> most rudimentary flight technology, so couldn't be critisized for features
> that never existed.

Agree with your observation, but you missed the point:  the point is
that the current paradigm of expectations is that because it lacked
all those things, the Wright brothers delivered an _incomplete_
product, which they shouldn't have shown the world because it wasn't
fully "ready".

Yes, this is an insane attitude, which is why I want to also make it
100% that I'm not endorsing it as valid.  I'm simply reporting it as
fact, as the way that things currently are within at least some realms
of contemporary S&T today.  I've literally even seen Powerpoint charts
in presentations on this very issue (and before you ask - no, they
weren't mine!)

-hh
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 02:52 GMT
> A related thought to the tangent of "desirements for infinite
> memory" (sic) through expension cards is that there's also the cost
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> stack of a dozen cards for 'infinite' storage which will set them back
> $1000 or so.   YA example of tail wagging the dog.

8GB cards are $10.    No name class 6 32GB cards with a 1 year
warranty are a little over $30 on eBay.

It has nothing to do with price really, with memory cards you have
virtually unlimited capacity.  You don't with an iPad as it is today.

Steve
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 04:26 GMT
> It has nothing to do with price really, with memory cards you have
> virtually unlimited capacity.  You don't with an iPad as it is today.

few people care about 'virtually unlimited' capacity. as i said before,
the best selling ipods are not the ones with the largest capacity.
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 08:56 GMT
>> It has nothing to do with price really, with memory cards you have
>> virtually unlimited capacity.  You don't with an iPad as it is today.
>
> few people care about 'virtually unlimited' capacity. as i said before,
> the best selling ipods are not the ones with the largest capacity.

That's great if we were talking about iPods.  We weren't.

Anyway, regarding the iPods, form factor & price play a factor in the
decision to go with iPod Nanos.  I'm actually considering getting a
16GB iPod Nano for a friend as I know she wouldn't want a bulkier
player, even though there are about 38 GB of Bollywood music she has
that she loves.

Steve
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 02:41 GMT
> I guess it wouldn't matter, anyways.  The new movie is 1.6GB on my 16GB
> SDHC plugged into the Nokia N800 Linux tablet.  It's a DivX movie iPad
> won't play so there's no need to worry about it.
>
> 6 months after it's out, let's ask the owners what's missing they want it
> to do and see....

The iPad won't play DivX movies??  Terrific.

Steve
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 06:44 GMT
>> I guess it wouldn't matter, anyways.  The new movie is 1.6GB on my 16GB
>> SDHC plugged into the Nokia N800 Linux tablet.  It's a DivX movie iPad
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve

Of course not.  Iphone won't play DivX, FLAC, OGG, XviD, WManything,
Realmedia, FLASH, etc.....it won't play 99% of the media content the net
currently uses to serve such media.  Many websites are kissing Jobs' a.s 
and making special websites that play what iPhone plays in reduced format,
but media servers that won't kiss his a.s simply play nothing on iPhone OS,
and won't on iPad, either.

VLC on the cheapest netbook you can buy plays it all....for free.

It's stupid to buy iPad all hobbled up to satisfy ATT and the sellphone
companies.....just like iPhone.

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Larry

Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 09:05 GMT
>> The iPad won't play DivX movies??  Terrific.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> It's stupid to buy iPad all hobbled up to satisfy ATT and the sellphone
> companies.....just like iPhone.

So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.

Steve
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 20:35 GMT
> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.

it has nothing to do with being an apologist. those formats are
non-standard or niche, plus divx is mainly used for pirated content,
which is not something apple is about to endorse, especially since they
sell the same movies.

apple supports industry standard formats, such as h.264, mpeg, etc.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 00:48 GMT
>> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
>> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>apple supports industry standard formats, such as h.264, mpeg, etc.

Which are demonstrably superior.

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Steve de Mena - 11 Feb 2010 08:35 GMT
>> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
>> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> apple supports industry standard formats, such as h.264, mpeg, etc.

I wasn't disappointed, the Mac apologists weren't quiet for long.  But
of course only mentioned one of the formats I mentioned as they had no
lame excuses for the others, like LAME.

Steve
Larry - 11 Feb 2010 09:29 GMT
>>> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
>>> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Steve

Omnipotent Apple expects the world to bend to its will and adapt.

It has, with limited success......

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John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 19:28 GMT
>>> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
>>> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>of course only mentioned one of the formats I mentioned as they had no
>lame excuses for the others, like LAME.

LAME isn't a format, container file, or codec.
It's a specific MP3 (MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3) encoder.
Apple does support MP3.

Never let pesky facts get in the way of a good rant!  ;)

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Steve de Mena - 12 Feb 2010 01:36 GMT
>>>> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
>>>> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Never let pesky facts get in the way of a good rant!  ;)

I meant to write FLAC, as I wrote earlier.  I actually know what LAME
is.

Steve
John Navas - 12 Feb 2010 15:53 GMT
>>>>> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
>>>>> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>I meant to write FLAC, as I wrote earlier.  I actually know what LAME
>is.

Apple has its own lossless format, as I'm sure you know.

AAC (High Quality Audio Profile) at a comparable bitrate is near
lossless, and HD-AAC (SLS) is true lossless.

FLAC is less flexible and much less widely supported.

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Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 01:59 GMT
>>>>>> So what are the Mac apologist's explanations for not supporting these
>>>>>> common formats?  I personally would like to see Divx/xVid/FLAC/APE.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> FLAC is less flexible and much less widely supported.

Nonsense.  FLAC is MUCH more widely supported than Apple Lossless
(which I am forced to use).

Why are you listing AAC, etc?  Did I ask for a tutorial or
recommendation regarding lossy codecs?

Steve
nospam - 13 Feb 2010 04:54 GMT
> > FLAC is less flexible and much less widely supported.
>
> Nonsense.  FLAC is MUCH more widely supported than Apple Lossless

you do have proof, right? 250 million ipods sold, almost all of them
running itunes. i'd say alac is more widely supported, and it works
just as well (it's lossless, after all).

> (which I am forced to use).

nonsense. you have a choice, including using flac.
Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 08:40 GMT
>>> FLAC is less flexible and much less widely supported.
>> Nonsense.  FLAC is MUCH more widely supported than Apple Lossless
>
> you do have proof, right? 250 million ipods sold, almost all of them
> running itunes. i'd say alac is more widely supported, and it works
> just as well (it's lossless, after all).

Apple Lossless - Supported by Apple and iTunes. Proprietary.
FLAC - Supported by dozens and dozens of players, rippers, etc.
Hundreds probably. Free & Open Source

>> (which I am forced to use).
>
> nonsense. you have a choice, including using flac.

Can't use FLAC with the Finder, iPods/iPhone 3GS, etc.......   Jeez.

Steve
KDT - 13 Feb 2010 13:06 GMT
> > In article <mradna_ytIkBmuvWnZ2dnUVZ_tJi4...@giganews.com>, Steve de
> > Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> FLAC - Supported by dozens and dozens of players, rippers, etc.
> Hundreds probably. Free & Open Source

So Apple Lossless works on 70% of all mp3 players sold in the US.  I
consider that widely supported.

Do you also consider Plays4Sure to be widely supported?
nospam - 13 Feb 2010 13:15 GMT
> Apple Lossless - Supported by Apple and iTunes. Proprietary.
> FLAC - Supported by dozens and dozens of players, rippers, etc.
> Hundreds probably. Free & Open Source

how many installs of itunes and/or quicktime are there versus open
source apps nobody has ever heard of? how many mp3 players can play
flac, versus apple's 70% market share for ipods, all of which play
alac?

> >> (which I am forced to use).
> >
> > nonsense. you have a choice, including using flac.
>
> Can't use FLAC with the Finder, iPods/iPhone 3GS, etc.......   Jeez.

maybe you can't, but others can.
Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 13:30 GMT
>> Apple Lossless - Supported by Apple and iTunes. Proprietary.
>> FLAC - Supported by dozens and dozens of players, rippers, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> flac, versus apple's 70% market share for ipods, all of which play
> alac?

Only Apple supports Apple Lossless.

>>>> (which I am forced to use).
>>> nonsense. you have a choice, including using flac.
>> Can't use FLAC with the Finder, iPods/iPhone 3GS, etc.......   Jeez.
>
> maybe you can't, but others can.

No they can't.

I'm waiting to hear how I can play FLACs on my iPhone 3GS.

Waiting....

Waiting...

Steve
nospam - 13 Feb 2010 18:06 GMT
> >> Can't use FLAC with the Finder, iPods/iPhone 3GS, etc.......   Jeez.
> >
> > maybe you can't, but others can.
>
> No they can't.

yes, they can. all it takes is installing a codec. user installed too.

> I'm waiting to hear how I can play FLACs on my iPhone 3GS.

<http://tinyurl.com/cxnr44>
Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 19:34 GMT
>>>> Can't use FLAC with the Finder, iPods/iPhone 3GS, etc.......   Jeez.
>>> maybe you can't, but others can.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/cxnr44>

Idiot, that is for iTunes.  I said iPhone 3GS.  Can;t you read??

What about finder?  So I can see properties (ID3 tags)?

You have to change all your FLAC file extensions to ".mov" to get them
to play in iTunes, thus breaking them in other apps, especially
Windows apps.    And playing them is probably all you can do, you
can't add them to the library so they act like normal files.  FAIL.

I still can't believe you link to iTunes info when I specifically said
iPhone 3GS.  And then give me bogus info.

At least I don't have to worry about that any more.  Phwew!

Steve
nospam - 13 Feb 2010 19:47 GMT
> Idiot, that is for iTunes.  I said iPhone 3GS.  Can;t you read??

how do you think you get music to the iphone?

> What about finder?  So I can see properties (ID3 tags)?

if you install the proper codec, it works anywhere.
John Navas - 13 Feb 2010 18:20 GMT
>> Apple has its own lossless format, as I'm sure you know.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Nonsense.  FLAC is MUCH more widely supported than Apple Lossless
>(which I am forced to use).

I didn't say that.  
Are you reading in haste, or deliberately misconstruing what I write?

>Why are you listing AAC, etc?  Did I ask for a tutorial or
>recommendation regarding lossy codecs?

In rebuttal to FLAC, explaining why most major players haven't bothered
with it.

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nospam - 09 Feb 2010 16:01 GMT
> >> It's a way to load
> >> photos ONTO the iPad, so they can be emailed over "The Network" for fun
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Do you have Consumer Research to backup that claim?

it's common sense. people have cameras, they take photos, they want to
see them on a computer or portable storage device, so they pop the card
in and copy photos off.

most cameras can't read generic jpegs (there's usually some metadata
they require) so there's no point in putting images *back* to the card.

a few people use sd/cf cards as flash drives but that's far less common.
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 22:01 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220100801230891%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

>> >> It's a way to load
>> >> photos ONTO the iPad, so they can be emailed over "The Network" for fun
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> a few people use sd/cf cards as flash drives but that's far less common.

Why do we have to rationalize and make excuses for the simplest of common
functions every $299 netbook easily does on a device that costs between
$655 (with GPS/sellphone data radio) and over $1000?

Shouldn't the MORE expensive device do just amazing things you cannot do on
a $299 netbook, instead of the other way around?!!

Shouldn't the MORE expensive device at LEAST do what a $299 netbook will do
at 1/2 to 1/3 the price?!

How stupid is that?

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nospam - 09 Feb 2010 22:16 GMT
> Why do we have to rationalize and make excuses for the simplest of common
> functions every $299 netbook easily does on a device that costs between
> $655 (with GPS/sellphone data radio) and over $1000?

it's optimized for particular tasks. it's *not* in any way a general
purpose computer. that's the whole point.

and i'll say it again, nobody (outside of apple) knows what the
limitations of the card reader is. it might be read-only tied to one
app (i.e., photos), or it might have a way for any app to read *and*
write to it.

what it does might not even be set in stone. maybe in two months it
will be read only and with a firmware update a month later, it will be
read/write. wait until the damned thing ships.

> Shouldn't the MORE expensive device do just amazing things you cannot do on
> a $299 netbook, instead of the other way around?!!

it's an entirely different product category, so no.

> How stupid is that?

if it's something you said, the answer is very.
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 02:56 GMT
>> Why do we have to rationalize and make excuses for the simplest of common
>> functions every $299 netbook easily does on a device that costs between
>> $655 (with GPS/sellphone data radio) and over $1000?
>
> it's optimized for particular tasks. it's *not* in any way a general
> purpose computer. that's the whole point.

It doesn't matter if its a "general purpose computer" or not.  What
does that really mean?

It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
multitasking.  That Apple's resources could not get the OS to work
with all of this stuff and this is the best they could do to get the
device out soon, is a more plausible explanation.

> and i'll say it again, nobody (outside of apple) knows what the
> limitations of the card reader is. it might be read-only tied to one
> app (i.e., photos), or it might have a way for any app to read *and*
> write to it.

It has no card reader.

Steve
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 04:26 GMT
> > it's optimized for particular tasks. it's *not* in any way a general
> > purpose computer. that's the whole point.
>
> It doesn't matter if its a "general purpose computer" or not.  What
> does that really mean?

it means it can do a wide variety of tasks, rather than being optimized
for a particular subset.

> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
> multitasking.  

see above, and it does multitask.

> That Apple's resources could not get the OS to work
> with all of this stuff and this is the best they could do to get the
> device out soon, is a more plausible explanation.

maybe there wasn't a camera suitable for it. the nano only does video
because still cameras are too thick.

> > and i'll say it again, nobody (outside of apple) knows what the
> > limitations of the card reader is. it might be read-only tied to one
> > app (i.e., photos), or it might have a way for any app to read *and*
> > write to it.
>
> It has no card reader.

yes it most certainly does:
<http://images.apple.com/ipad/specs/images/usb_connectors_20100127.jpg>
Steve de Mena - 10 Feb 2010 09:01 GMT
>>> it's optimized for particular tasks. it's *not* in any way a general
>>> purpose computer. that's the whole point.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it means it can do a wide variety of tasks, rather than being optimized
> for a particular subset.

I know what it "means", but what does  that REALLY mean in the real
world. People will naturally want to do things with it, and the fact
it was "designed" for this or "designed" for that don't really matter
any more.

>> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
>> multitasking.  
>
> see above, and it does multitask.

Not THAT argument again.  I say it doesn't.  Guess we'll just have to
agree to disagree.

>> That Apple's resources could not get the OS to work
>> with all of this stuff and this is the best they could do to get the
>> device out soon, is a more plausible explanation.
>
> maybe there wasn't a camera suitable for it. the nano only does video
> because still cameras are too thick.

If they could fit a camera into the iPad nano (iPhone 3GS) I bet they
could squeeze that into the iPad.  They probably don't have the
software ready to use it, like an iChat client, or some other
integration issues.

>>> and i'll say it again, nobody (outside of apple) knows what the
>>> limitations of the card reader is. it might be read-only tied to one
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> yes it most certainly does:
> <http://images.apple.com/ipad/specs/images/usb_connectors_20100127.jpg>

No it doesn't have a card reader.

Your pictures show some add-on devices which we don't even know how
they work.

Steve
nospam - 10 Feb 2010 20:35 GMT
> >> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
> >> multitasking.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Not THAT argument again.  I say it doesn't.  Guess we'll just have to
> agree to disagree.

you can say anything you want, but it definitely does multitask. there
are several things running at any given moment and an app can spawn
multiple threads.

how else can an iphone receive phone calls, sms messages or email while
using another app? or how safari can stream audio when not running?

> If they could fit a camera into the iPad nano (iPhone 3GS) I bet they
> could squeeze that into the iPad.  They probably don't have the
> software ready to use it, like an iChat client, or some other
> integration issues.

the iphone has had a camera for 2.5 years and ships with a camera app.
there is also a lot of camera software available on the store.

> No it doesn't have a card reader.
>
> Your pictures show some add-on devices which we don't even know how
> they work.

which means it has a card reader. it's just not built-in, but that's
ok, it's not like the card reader will work with something other than
an ipad.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 00:49 GMT
>> >> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
>> >> multitasking.  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>how else can an iphone receive phone calls, sms messages or email while
>using another app? or how safari can stream audio when not running?

True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
different things.

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nospam - 11 Feb 2010 01:07 GMT
> >> >> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
> >> >> multitasking.  
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
> different things.

good thing that the iphone has both.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 01:29 GMT
>> >> >> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
>> >> >> multitasking.  
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>good thing that the iphone has both.

Nope.

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nospam - 11 Feb 2010 01:33 GMT
> >> True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
> >> different things.
> >
> >good thing that the iphone has both.
>
> Nope.

wrong. very wrong.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 01:55 GMT
>> >> True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
>> >> different things.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>wrong. very wrong.

You were indeed.

"Does the iPhone OS Need Multitasking?"
<http://db.tidbits.com/article/10989>

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nospam - 11 Feb 2010 01:58 GMT
> >> >> True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
> >> >> different things.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You were indeed.

nope.

> "Does the iPhone OS Need Multitasking?"
> <http://db.tidbits.com/article/10989>

you might want to read what you quote.

the restriction is that third party apps can't run in the background.
the built in apps can (and do) run in the background.

that's how you can listen to music via the ipod app, have safari load a
page in the background, use a third party app *and* receive email,
phone calls and/or sms messages, all at the same time.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 01:59 GMT
>> "Does the iPhone OS Need Multitasking?"
>> <http://db.tidbits.com/article/10989>
>
>you might want to read what you quote.
>
>the restriction is that third party apps can't run in the background.

Yep.  Just as I wrote.

>the built in apps can (and do) run in the background.

A few do; most do not.

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nospam - 11 Feb 2010 02:00 GMT
> >the restriction is that third party apps can't run in the background.
>
> Yep.  Just as I wrote.

no, you said it lacked multitasking. that's different.

> >the built in apps can (and do) run in the background.
>
> A few do; most do not.

which means there's multitasking. thanks for the confirmation.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 02:06 GMT
>> >the restriction is that third party apps can't run in the background.
>>
>> Yep.  Just as I wrote.
>
>no, you said it lacked multitasking. that's different.

The record speaks for itself, and I said nothing of the sort.  
You need to do a better job of keeping your targets straight.

>> >the built in apps can (and do) run in the background.
>>
>> A few do; most do not.
>
>which means there's multitasking.

Irrelevant.

>thanks for the confirmation.

How childish.

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nospam - 11 Feb 2010 02:16 GMT
> >no, you said it lacked multitasking. that's different.
>
> The record speaks for itself, and I said nothing of the sort.  
> You need to do a better job of keeping your targets straight.

In article <hcn6n5dp4vf7grduq1j6sbs85age5ijke5@4ax.com>, John Navas
<spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote:

> >> True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
> >> different things.
> >
> >good thing that the iphone has both.
>
> Nope.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 02:22 GMT
>> >no, you said it lacked multitasking. that's different.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
>> Nope.

Is your problem reading or comprehension?

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Your Name - 11 Feb 2010 03:19 GMT
> >> >no, you said it lacked multitasking. that's different.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Is your problem reading or comprehension?

This is the Internet, so probably both, plus the old "switch brain off"
sticker that apparently ships on all modems.  :-(
Richard B. Gilbert - 11 Feb 2010 02:02 GMT
>>>>> True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
>>>>> different things.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> "Does the iPhone OS Need Multitasking?"
> <http://db.tidbits.com/article/10989>

This "iPhone" traffic is off topic for alt.cellular.verizon!

Can we please keep it where it belongs?  Thank you!
ZnU - 11 Feb 2010 01:48 GMT
> >> >> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
> >> >> multitasking.  
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> True multitasking and multithreading/multiprogramming are quite
> different things.

iPhone OS has full preemptive multitasking. Why wouldn't it? Its kernel
is derived from the one used by the desktop version of OS X.

It merely sends quit events to third-party apps when the user exits to
the home screen, and forces them to quit if they don't do it themselves
within a few seconds.

This is about Apple not trusting third-party apps, not technical
capability.

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nospam - 11 Feb 2010 01:55 GMT
> This is about Apple not trusting third-party apps, not technical
> capability.

it's not so much about trust, but that it has a small screen and
limited memory, so running more than one app isn't really practical.

plus, since apps save their state, the user experience of quit/launch
is the same as invoking an app switcher and push notifications solves
most (not all) of the other issues.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 02:02 GMT
>> This is about Apple not trusting third-party apps, not technical
>> capability.

What matters is that it won't run most apps in the background, not that
it could if Apple wanted -- that's always true.

>it's not so much about trust, but that it has a small screen and
>limited memory, so running more than one app isn't really practical.

Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
isn't an issue.

>plus, since apps save their state, the user experience of quit/launch
>is the same as invoking an app switcher and push notifications solves
>most (not all) of the other issues.

There are actually lots of things that can't be done when apps can't run
in the background.

"It's not a limitation -- it's a feature!"  LOL

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nospam - 11 Feb 2010 02:15 GMT
> What matters is that it won't run most apps in the background, not that
> it could if Apple wanted -- that's always true.

so you admit again it can do it. progress.

> >it's not so much about trust, but that it has a small screen and
> >limited memory, so running more than one app isn't really practical.
>
> Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
> isn't an issue.

actually it does. you can't have two apps side by side on a tiny screen
so there's no point in implementing an app switcher, for example.
quit/launch is essentially the same experience to the user. background
apps will use the limited memory, leaving less for the foreground app,
slowing it down.

> There are actually lots of things that can't be done when apps can't run
> in the background.

actually no. push notification covers most, leaving very few drawbacks.
pandora is the prime example.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 02:23 GMT
>> What matters is that it won't run most apps in the background, not that
>> it could if Apple wanted -- that's always true.
>
>so you admit again it can do it. progress.

Nothing of the sort.

>> >it's not so much about trust, but that it has a small screen and
>> >limited memory, so running more than one app isn't really practical.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>actually it does.

Nope.

>you can't have two apps side by side on a tiny screen

No need.

>so there's no point in implementing an app switcher, for example.
>quit/launch is essentially the same experience to the user. background
>apps will use the limited memory, leaving less for the foreground app,
>slowing it down.

Nope.

>> There are actually lots of things that can't be done when apps can't run
>> in the background.
>
>actually no. push notification covers most, leaving very few drawbacks.
>pandora is the prime example.

Nope.

Back into the kill file you go.  Pity.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

-hh - 11 Feb 2010 02:45 GMT
> >In article <r4p6n5diio60i7c8fisoeo4uvjc72mp...@4ax.com>, John Navas
> ><spamfilt...@navasgroup.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Back into the kill file you go.  Pity.

Note to observers:  John Navas routinely plays this "killfile" game
for people who prove him to be factually wrong.

-hh
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 19:30 GMT
>> Back into the kill file you go.  Pity.
>
>Note to observers:  John Navas routinely plays this "killfile" game
>for people who prove him to be factually wrong.

In your dreams.  LOL!  
You may well be joining him.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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-hh - 12 Feb 2010 01:54 GMT
> >> Back into the kill file you go.  Pity.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In your dreams.  LOL!  
> You may well be joining him.

Check your <rec.photo.*> archives, John:  you've already claimed
multiple times that I'm already killfiled.

-hh
John Navas - 12 Feb 2010 15:55 GMT
>> >> Back into the kill file you go.  Pity.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Check your <rec.photo.*> archives, John:  you've already claimed
>multiple times that I'm already killfiled.

You have been indeed.  However, my killfile entries expire after a given
period of time so I can see if there has been any improvement.  (Hope
springs eternal, and all that sort of thing.)  So you're back on trial.
;)

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

-hh - 13 Feb 2010 01:52 GMT
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:54:59 -0800 (PST), -hh
> <recscuba_goo...@huntzinger.com> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> You have been indeed.  However, my killfile entries expire after a given
> period of time...

Which upon occasion have apparently been set at mere days.   Assuming
that John's telling the truth.

BTW, I did finally pick up my new UW camera rig.  Would have liked for
it to have been a nice compact P&S, but the key feature of UW WA that
I was looking for, simply wasn't available on a brand of P&S at any
price.  Please be sure to tell the RPD troll the news :-)

-hh
John Navas - 13 Feb 2010 18:23 GMT
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:54:59 -0800 (PST), -hh
>> <recscuba_goo...@huntzinger.com> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Which upon occasion have apparently been set at mere days.  

Usually 90 days.  Sometime 30 days or 180 days.

>Assuming
>that John's telling the truth.

Safe assumption.

>BTW, I did finally pick up my new UW camera rig.  Would have liked for
>it to have been a nice compact P&S, but the key feature of UW WA that
>I was looking for, simply wasn't available on a brand of P&S at any
>price.  Please be sure to tell the RPD troll the news :-)

Fair enough, but you must have been looking for some pretty unusual
features.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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-hh - 13 Feb 2010 21:49 GMT
> >...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Usually 90 days.  Sometime 30 days or 180 days.

And never less than a month? :-)

> >BTW, I did finally pick up my new UW camera rig.  Would have liked for
> >it to have been a nice compact P&S, but the key feature of UW WA that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Fair enough, but you must have been looking for some pretty unusual
> features.

Nope, not at all:   I was looking for UW wide angle, which has
historically been so common that it is what's been seen on easily 50%
of the covers of UW magazine covers continuously for the past 30
years, and perhaps as high as 75%.

Now I could tell you what the specific focal length this is for UW,
but rather than take my word for it, go ask the question at wetpixel,
scubaboard, or calling the guys at Backscatter.   Suffice to say that
28mm behind a flat port falls WAY short, and that I was merely looking
to match the old 15mm that I was using on my Nikonos (35mm film).

-hh
John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 02:57 GMT
>> >...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>And never less than a month? :-)

No.

>> >BTW, I did finally pick up my new UW camera rig.  Would have liked for
>> >it to have been a nice compact P&S, but the key feature of UW WA that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>of the covers of UW magazine covers continuously for the past 30
>years, and perhaps as high as 75%.

Most I've seen have been taken with 35 mm lenses of 28 or 20 mm.

>Now I could tell you what the specific focal length this is for UW,
>but rather than take my word for it, go ask the question at wetpixel,
>scubaboard, or calling the guys at Backscatter.   Suffice to say that
>28mm behind a flat port falls WAY short, and that I was merely looking
>to match the old 15mm that I was using on my Nikonos (35mm film).

I've been doing fairly serious underwater photography for 30 years
(SCUBA certified for much longer, chiefly using a series of Nikonos),
and that's not my experience.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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-hh - 14 Feb 2010 05:41 GMT
> >Nope, not at all:   I was looking for UW wide angle, which has
> >historically been so common that it is what's been seen on easily 50%
> >of the covers of UW magazine covers continuously for the past 30
> >years, and perhaps as high as 75%.
>
> Most I've seen have been taken with 35 mm lenses of 28 or 20 mm.

For UW, Wide Angle starts at 20mm, so that counts...and its what the
P&S couldn't even reach, let alone wider.  FYI, the magazine covers'
UW images I was referring to typically used 15mm in CFWA, classically
with a 'sunball' background.

CFWA: <http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/close-focus-wide-angle-
underwater>

> >Now I could tell you what the specific focal length this is for UW,
> >but rather than take my word for it, go ask the question at wetpixel,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (SCUBA certified for much longer, chiefly using a series of Nikonos),
> and that's not my experience.

Which is why I specifically suggested (above) that you go consult the
Pros, since I know that in your arrogance, you'll never listen to me.

For example, here's the article, "Three Key Shots", written by the
late Jim Church:
<http://www.skin-diver.com/departments/photography/ThreeKeyShots.asp?
theID=749>

"The Long Distance Shot: The LS shows a large scene. (Underwater, we
usually shoot long shots with a wide angle lens to minimize camera to
subject distances.) "

"The medium shot: ... the MS identifies specific subjects..." [no
specific focal length mentioned]

"The close-up shot: ... You can shoot a CU with a close focusing lens
or with a wide-angle lens up close."

Please note that Jim specifically called out a wide angle lens in 2
out of 3 applications.

And FYI, WA isn't limited to just the Long & Close shot - its useful
for the Medium Shot too:
<http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/old/puffer3.jpg>

-hh
John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 06:46 GMT
>Which is why I specifically suggested (above) that you go consult the
>Pros, since I know that in your arrogance, you'll never listen to me.

I'm not going to waste time on posts with gratuitous insults, which
only serve to make you a candidate for a repeat visit to my killfile.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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-hh - 14 Feb 2010 13:24 GMT
> >Which is why I specifically suggested (above) that you go consult the
> >Pros, since I know that in your arrogance, you'll never listen to me.
>
> I'm not going to waste time on posts with gratuitous insults, which
> only serve to make you a candidate for a repeat visit to my killfile.

The truth sometimes hurts ... and using a killfile so as to avoid the
messenger is simply denial.

So even though John has admitted to some Nikkor 20mm, where's all the
P&S systems that can even do even that focal length underwater?

Now I don't need to claim that there utterly aren't any such
products:  I'm just inviting 'SuperZoom' John (and the RPD P&S Troll)
to provide two real world examples as to how I missed finding any such
product.   Afterall, wouldn't it be satisfying to rub it in my face if
I were wrong?  Especially after I've already dropped the bucks for
something else?

-hh
Your Name - 11 Feb 2010 03:18 GMT
> > What matters is that it won't run most apps in the background, not that
> > it could if Apple wanted -- that's always true.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> apps will use the limited memory, leaving less for the foreground app,
> slowing it down.

Most users don't even quit applications on computers - they simply close
the application's windows and then move on to another application. Of
course, eventually you've got lots of unneeded applications still running
and chewing up processor time and mormory.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 19:31 GMT
>Most users don't even quit applications on computers - they simply close
>the application's windows and then move on to another application. Of
>course, eventually you've got lots of unneeded applications still running
>and chewing up processor time and mormory.

Not necessarily.  There's no reason for a background task to take up a
significant amount of processor time in the background unless it's doing
something useful, and memory is dirt cheap and getting cheaper.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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Your Name - 11 Feb 2010 20:02 GMT
> >Most users don't even quit applications on computers - they simply close
> >the application's windows and then move on to another application. Of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> significant amount of processor time in the background unless it's doing
> something useful, and memory is dirt cheap and getting cheaper.

True ... unless it's a Microsoft application, in which case it chews up
processor time even when doing "nothing" and memory leaks like a water pipe.
:-\.
John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 21:46 GMT
>> >Most users don't even quit applications on computers - they simply close
>> >the application's windows and then move on to another application. Of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>processor time even when doing "nothing" and memory leaks like a water pipe.
>:-\.

Not here.  Seriously.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 12 Feb 2010 00:30 GMT
> There's no reason for a background task to take up a
> significant amount of processor time in the background unless it's doing
> something useful, and memory is dirt cheap and getting cheaper.

if it's not doing something useful in the background, what's the point
in leaving it running?
Todd Allcock - 12 Feb 2010 00:40 GMT
>> There's no reason for a background task to take up a
>> significant amount of processor time in the background unless it's doing
>> something useful, and memory is dirt cheap and getting cheaper.
>
> if it's not doing something useful in the background, what's the point
> in leaving it running?

It might be waiting for an external event- poll an email server, wait for an
IM, remind you to take your pills, whatever.

Of course that's where the notifications system should step in, and does- on
the 60 or so official iPhone carriers worldwide.  The rest of us,
apparently, can go suck eggs.

The corollary of your argument, of course, is, if it's not doing much, and
therefore not consuming much in the way of resources, why the pathological
need to shut it down?  ;)
nospam - 12 Feb 2010 00:53 GMT
> > if it's not doing something useful in the background, what's the point
> > in leaving it running?
>
> It might be waiting for an external event- poll an email server, wait for an
> IM, remind you to take your pills, whatever.

which uses cpu, otherwise known as killing battery life. an instant
messaging app would need to poll very often.

> Of course that's where the notifications system should step in, and does- on
> the 60 or so official iPhone carriers worldwide.  The rest of us,
> apparently, can go suck eggs.

push works on unofficial carriers, it's just a little trickier to set
up. it's not really a high priority for apple to streamlined that. :)

> The corollary of your argument, of course, is, if it's not doing much, and
> therefore not consuming much in the way of resources, why the pathological
> need to shut it down?  ;)

there's always *some* overhead :)
Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 06:21 GMT
> >> There's no reason for a background task to take up a
> >> significant amount of processor time in the background unless it's doing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It might be waiting for an external event- poll an email server,

This is already done in the Mail application - which runs in the
background.

> wait for an IM, remind you to take your pills,

Use the built-in alarm:-)

> whatever.
>
> Of course that's where the notifications system should step in, and does- on
> the 60 or so official iPhone carriers worldwide.  The rest of us,
> apparently, can go suck eggs.

Were 3rd party application programmers allowed to access the built-in
calendar and alarm database, there would be no need for this
notification system ... let's hope for iPhone OS 4.0 ...

> The corollary of your argument, of course, is, if it's not doing much, and
> therefore not consuming much in the way of resources, why the pathological
> need to shut it down?  ;)

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nospam - 12 Feb 2010 17:59 GMT
> > It might be waiting for an external event- poll an email server,
>
> This is already done in the Mail application - which runs in the
> background.

that's optional, and it was there because there was no real push system
early on.
Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 19:41 GMT
> > > It might be waiting for an external event- poll an email server,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that's optional, and it was there because there was no real push system
> early on.

Optional? I fail to see where it can be turned off.

The same with Messages [SMS] and probably iCal too. At least iCal
doesn't begin synchronizing with MobileMe when the application is opened
- as does OmniFocus. And as does Pocket Informant to Google Calendar if
set up for it.
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nospam - 12 Feb 2010 23:22 GMT
> > > > It might be waiting for an external event- poll an email server,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Optional? I fail to see where it can be turned off.

settings.
Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 04:51 GMT
> > > > > It might be waiting for an external event- poll an email server,
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> settings.

By de-selecting 'push' ?
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nospam - 13 Feb 2010 04:55 GMT
> > > > that's optional, and it was there because there was no real push system
> > > > early on.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> By de-selecting 'push' ?

right. set it to manual.
Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 10:14 GMT
> > > > > that's optional, and it was there because there was no real push
> > > > > system early on.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> right. set it to manual.

OK, I never really saw the purpose of the option as there was no button
in the Mail application or otherwhere to manually send and receive
mails. But of course, manually means 'when Mail is open'.

I shall /not/ de-select 'push'.
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Sandman - 13 Feb 2010 11:01 GMT
> > > > > > that's optional, and it was there because there was no real push
> > > > > > system early on.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> in the Mail application or otherwhere to manually send and receive
> mails. But of course, manually means 'when Mail is open'.

Uh, there is a reload-button in the lower left that checks for new
mail and sends mails in the outbox.

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Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 11:31 GMT
> > > > > > > that's optional, and it was there because there was no real push
> > > > > > > system early on.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Uh, there is a reload-button in the lower left that checks for new
> mail and sends mails in the outbox.

Ah - you're rigt.
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Steve de Mena - 12 Feb 2010 00:57 GMT
>> What matters is that it won't run most apps in the background, not that
>> it could if Apple wanted -- that's always true.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> actually it does. you can't have two apps side by side on a tiny screen
> so there's no point in implementing an app switcher, for example.

Your opinion. Not fact.

But since the iPad doesn't have multitasking its an academic question.

Steve
nospam - 12 Feb 2010 01:01 GMT
> >> Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
> >> isn't an issue.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Your opinion. Not fact.

it's fact. how do you fit two apps on an iphone screen, especially
since all the apps are hard coded for the screen size.

> But since the iPad doesn't have multitasking its an academic question.

it multitasks, and the ipad *could* run two iphone apps side by side,
but it doesn't.
Steve de Mena - 12 Feb 2010 10:27 GMT
>>>> Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
>>>> isn't an issue.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it's fact. how do you fit two apps on an iphone screen, especially
> since all the apps are hard coded for the screen size.

You don't hit the "x2" button!  (The subject of this thread was the
iPad, not iPhone)

>> But since the iPad doesn't have multitasking its an academic question.
>
> it multitasks, and the ipad *could* run two iphone apps side by side,
> but it doesn't.

Steve
nospam - 12 Feb 2010 17:58 GMT
> >>> actually it does. you can't have two apps side by side on a tiny screen
> >>> so there's no point in implementing an app switcher, for example.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You don't hit the "x2" button!  (The subject of this thread was the
> iPad, not iPhone)

read what i wrote. i said "you can't have two apps side by side on a
tiny screen" which can only refer to the iphone/ipod touch. the one app
at a time model stems from that.
Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 02:01 GMT
>>>>> actually it does. you can't have two apps side by side on a tiny screen
>>>>> so there's no point in implementing an app switcher, for example.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> tiny screen" which can only refer to the iphone/ipod touch. the one app
> at a time model stems from that.

Again, this discussion concerns the iPad.  (Regardless, "tiny screen"
to me could have referred to the iPad)

Steve
ZnU - 11 Feb 2010 02:17 GMT
> >> This is about Apple not trusting third-party apps, not technical
> >> capability.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
> isn't an issue.

I'm sure you'd know this much better than, say, the engineers who worked
on the iPhone.

> >plus, since apps save their state, the user experience of quit/launch
> >is the same as invoking an app switcher and push notifications solves
> >most (not all) of the other issues.
>
> There are actually lots of things that can't be done when apps can't run
> in the background.

There are a grand total of about two real-world use cases anyone has
ever come up with that make sense on a phone.

> "It's not a limitation -- it's a feature!"  LOL

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 02:25 GMT
>> Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
>> isn't an issue.
>
>I'm sure you'd know this much better than, say, the engineers who worked
>on the iPhone.

My credentials are probably at least as good.

>> >plus, since apps save their state, the user experience of quit/launch
>> >is the same as invoking an app switcher and push notifications solves
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>There are a grand total of about two real-world use cases anyone has
>ever come up with that make sense on a phone.

You must lack imagination.  I can think of many more than two.

"It's not a limitation -- it's a feature!"  LOL

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 11 Feb 2010 02:29 GMT
> >> Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
> >> isn't an issue.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> My credentials are probably at least as good.

why don't you show apple how it's done.

> >There are a grand total of about two real-world use cases anyone has
> >ever come up with that make sense on a phone.
>
> You must lack imagination.  I can think of many more than two.

list them.
ZnU - 11 Feb 2010 02:31 GMT
> >> Running multiple apps has nothing to do with screen size, and memory
> >> isn't an issue.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> My credentials are probably at least as good.

Largely irrelevant, even if true.

> >> >plus, since apps save their state, the user experience of quit/launch
> >> >is the same as invoking an app switcher and push notifications solves
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> You must lack imagination.  I can think of many more than two.

That's probably because you're not aware of how many of them the
iPhone's push notification features take care of without the need for
background tasks.

> "It's not a limitation -- it's a feature!"  LOL

It is a limitation, but some limitations produce better overall outcomes.

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Navas - 11 Feb 2010 19:33 GMT
>> >There are a grand total of about two real-world use cases anyone has
>> >ever come up with that make sense on a phone.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>iPhone's push notification features take care of without the need for
>background tasks.

I'm thoroughly familiar with the iPhone.

>> "It's not a limitation -- it's a feature!"  LOL
>
>It is a limitation, but some limitations produce better overall outcomes.

Only to those who've drunk the Kool-aid.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 12 Feb 2010 00:30 GMT
> I'm thoroughly familiar with the iPhone.

not based on what you've written, and i don't just mean this thread.
Todd Allcock - 11 Feb 2010 05:53 GMT
> > >plus, since apps save their state, the user experience of quit/launch
> > >is the same as invoking an app switcher and push notifications solves
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> There are a grand total of about two real-world use cases anyone has
> ever come up with that make sense on a phone.

Internet radio apps and GPS spring to mind immediately.  Another problem
for those of us using unlocked iPhones on unofficial carries (like T-
Mobile in the USA) is that the push notifications don't seem to work-
presumably the mobile operators are involved somehow?
ZnU - 11 Feb 2010 07:47 GMT
> > > >plus, since apps save their state, the user experience of
> > > >quit/launch is the same as invoking an app switcher and push
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Internet radio apps and GPS spring to mind immediately.

Yes, those are precisely the two I was thinking of.

> Another problem for those of us using unlocked iPhones on unofficial
> carries (like T- Mobile in the USA) is that the push notifications
> don't seem to work- presumably the mobile operators are involved
> somehow?

Yeah, well, running lots of background processes that poll the network
(or, even worse, keep open socket connections) for updates is not the
way to fix that problem.

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Todd Allcock - 11 Feb 2010 13:58 GMT
> > > There are a grand total of about two real-world use cases anyone
> > > has ever come up with that make sense on a phone.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (or, even worse, keep open socket connections) for updates is not the
> way to fix that problem.

Except for the fact that it works.
ZnU - 12 Feb 2010 04:17 GMT
> > > > There are a grand total of about two real-world use cases anyone
> > > > has ever come up with that make sense on a phone.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Except for the fact that it works.

My understanding is that there's no technical reason push notifications
shouldn't work as well; the carrier actually doesn't seem to be directly
involved. It can merely be a little tricky to set things up properly,
which is something that's automatically taken care of on supported
carriers.

In any event, even if Apple did allow background processes, how many
application developers would invest the extra effort to write their apps
to support e.g. background polling (which *will* negatively impact
performance and battery life) just for the few people for whom push
notifications don't work?

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"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

John Navas - 12 Feb 2010 16:01 GMT
>> > Yeah, well, running lots of background processes that poll the network
>> > (or, even worse, keep open socket connections) for updates is not the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>which is something that's automatically taken care of on supported
>carriers.

Pull has the advantage over push of not requiring any external support,
which might well not be available.

>In any event, even if Apple did allow background processes, how many
>application developers would invest the extra effort to write their apps
>to support e.g. background polling

My guess(tm) is quite a few, and all that's important are the few that
any given user might need/want.

>(which *will* negatively impact
>performance and battery life)

Unless you assume stupid implementation,
the impact would not be terribly significant.

"We're protecting you from idiots by blocking everything."

>just for the few people for whom push
>notifications don't work?

I'd say it's more than a "few" and that it would be worthwhile even if
it's only a few.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

ZnU - 12 Feb 2010 16:07 GMT
> >> > Yeah, well, running lots of background processes that poll the
> >> > network (or, even worse, keep open socket connections) for
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> My guess(tm) is quite a few, and all that's important are the few
> that any given user might need/want.

You're essentially just making stuff up to fit your arguments. The
notion that any significant number of app developers would do this for
the tiny fraction of users who can't receive push notifications is
totally ludicrous.

> >(which *will* negatively impact performance and battery life)
>
> Unless you assume stupid implementation, the impact would not be
> terribly significant.

There is no non-stupid implementation of "Let's open a new network
connection on a tiny wireless device every 10 seconds to check if the
user got a new IM".

[snip]

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John Navas - 12 Feb 2010 16:22 GMT
>> My guess(tm) is quite a few, and all that's important are the few
>> that any given user might need/want.
>
>You're essentially just making stuff up to fit your arguments. ...

Nope, and if you keep on stooping to insults (a sure sign of nothing
persuasive to say) you'll wind up in my killfile.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

ZnU - 12 Feb 2010 17:09 GMT
> >> My guess(tm) is quite a few, and all that's important are the few
> >> that any given user might need/want.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Nope, and if you keep on stooping to insults (a sure sign of nothing
> persuasive to say) you'll wind up in my killfile.

I can't help but noticing you have provided no substantive response.

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John Navas - 12 Feb 2010 17:39 GMT
>> >> My guess(tm) is quite a few, and all that's important are the few
>> >> that any given user might need/want.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I can't help but noticing you have provided no substantive response.

Then you need to get your glasses cleaned.  

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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nospam - 12 Feb 2010 17:58 GMT
> Pull has the advantage over push of not requiring any external support,
> which might well not be available.

and it has the disadvantage of using limited resources on the device
itself. it's a tradeoff.

> >In any event, even if Apple did allow background processes, how many
> >application developers would invest the extra effort to write their apps
> >to support e.g. background polling
>
> My guess(tm) is quite a few, and all that's important are the few that
> any given user might need/want.

a guess, nonetheless.

> >(which *will* negatively impact
> >performance and battery life)
>
> Unless you assume stupid implementation,
> the impact would not be terribly significant.

with 140,000+ apps from tens of thousands of developers, quite a few
will have a 'stupid implementation.'

> >just for the few people for whom push
> >notifications don't work?
>
> I'd say it's more than a "few" and that it would be worthwhile even if
> it's only a few.

quite the opposite. optimize for the common scenarios. no device can
satisfy *everyone*.
Steve de Mena - 11 Feb 2010 08:47 GMT
>> This is about Apple not trusting third-party apps, not technical
>> capability.
>
> it's not so much about trust, but that it has a small screen and
> limited memory, so running more than one app isn't really practical.

Don't all systems have "limited memory"?

How much RAM does the iPad have?

Steve
Per Rønne - 11 Feb 2010 10:43 GMT
> >> This is about Apple not trusting third-party apps, not technical
> >> capability.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> How much RAM does the iPad have?

You should discriminate between RAM and flash memory.

On RAM? :

<http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100127150648AAQ6YIy>
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Larry - 11 Feb 2010 22:50 GMT
per@RQNNE.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote in news:1jdqz52.ttw7xz1eh6sumN%
per@RQNNE.invalid:

> On RAM? :

My money is on 256K of RAM.  RAM takes POWER.  More RAM = More POWER,
something the tiny battery demanded by "thin", a stupid requirement of
the fans, simply cannot provide.

To get the runtime up, they'll make RAM as small as practical, which is
easy in a device like iPhone that has no real multitasking.

Without multitasking, RAM is moot as it's only running one program at a
time and those programs are quite small on this OS, compared with the
huge bloatware of a real Apple program:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa
Apple Lisa - dual floppies $10,000

"Drives

The original Lisa has two Apple FileWare 5¼ inch double-sided floppy
disk drives, more commonly known by Apple's internal code name for the
drive; "Twiggy". They have a capacity of approximately 871 kilobytes
each, but required special diskettes. The Macintosh, which was
originally designed to have a single Twiggy, was revised to use a Sony
400k microfloppy drive in January 1984. An optional external 5 MB or,
later, a 10 MB Apple ProFile hard drive (originally designed for the
Apple III) was available. With the introduction of the Lisa 2, an
"optional 10 MB internal proprietary hard disk manufactured by Apple,
known as the "Widget" was also offered."

Sound familiar?  "required special diskettes" "internal proprietary hard
disk manufactured by Apple"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Newton

"Newton was intended to be a complete reinvention of personal
computing."

"The project missed its original goals to reinvent personal computing,
and then to rewrite contemporary application programming. The Newton
project fell victim to project slippage, scope creep, and a growing fear
that it would interfere with Macintosh sales. It was reinvented as a PDA
platform which would be a complementary Macintosh peripheral instead of
a stand-alone computer which might compete with the Macintosh."

....same reason as iPad is NOT a personal computer, "which might compete
with Mac"books.  iPad will never be a personal computer as long as there
are Macbooks and the now-seemingly-forgotten Macbook Air.

"The Newton OS consists of three layers. At the lowest level, a
microkernel handles resources like tasks and memory. On top of the
microkernel, the bulk of the operating system is implemented in C++,
including the communications layer, handwriting recognition, and the
NewtonScript environment. The top layer consists of built-in and user
installed applications written in NewtonScript."

At least Newton OS allowed user-installed programs, even if it was in a
queer, PROPRIETARY (keyword), environment different from everything
else.

A lot of the Newton's advanced features, like handwriting recognition,
have been deleted from iPad.  How would you do handwriting on a device
that doesn't have a high resolution, stylus-based touchscreen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_air

This "thing" would make a much better ebook reader if you rotate the
screen to portrait mode and hold it like a book.  All that's needed is a
touchscreen added to it to make it much easier to navigate in this "open
book mode" where using the touchpad and keyboard are useless.

I'm not sure how using the Air as an open book may wipe out the
warranty.  For a long time, Apple buried its head in the sand and blamed
users for the failed cheap hinge cracking, refusing to replace it under
warranty as it was "user caused".  Users actually OPENED the folded
computer to the operating position.  If they hadn't done that, the hinge
PROBABLY wouldn't have cracked.  Faced with angry owners reporting this
bullshit to the Federal Trade Commission and asking for action, Apple
suddenly started fixing them (patching?) under warranty and refunding
the horrible charges they wanted to repair the hinges, which requires
replacing the WHOLE SCREEN AND TOP, an expensive proposition that made
it worth Apple's while, so the bean counters thought, to resist warranty
claims.

"Technical Problems

The MacBook Air has a price premium compared to other notebooks of
similar or better specification.[24] The flip-down hatch is a tight fit
for some headphone plugs and USB devices, requiring users to purchase
either a powered USB hub or an extension cable.[25][26]

Lacking FireWire, the MacBook Air does not support Target Disk Mode,
which would have enabled it to be used as an external hard drive for
quick data transfers or operating system repairs.[27]

Several MacBook Air users[28] since the release of the first-generation
product have complained of severe overheating causing CPU lockup. The
effect can be seen at CPU temperatures as low as 66 degrees Celsius and
worsens with higher temperatures. Apple released a software update in
early March 2008 to fix the problem with mixed results: the deactivation
of 1 CPU core appears to have been corrected; however, the runaway
kernel problem remains for at least some users.[29] The problem is
aggravated by system-intensive tasks such as video playback or video
chatting.[30]

Turning the integrated fans to full speed by using third-party software
or using USB-powered cool-pads does not cool down the notebook
sufficiently to prevent core shutdowns. A downloadable application
called Coolbook regulates the voltage of each of the six processing
speeds of the Air, and has been said by users that it has worked better
than the Apple update. Apple states that these softwares are
unsupported, should be removed, and that users should rely on the
update.

Some users of the first revision have found that the plastic holding the
right hinge cracks under normal use, making the notebook nearly
unusable.[31] Additionally, there has recently been a "blanket rule"
sent out by Apple to its stores around the world which says that the
hinge breaking is caused by "user damage", despite a number of cracked
and snapped hinges on the Rev A laptop. Therefore, the expensive
replacement of the hinge (ergo, the screen as well) is at the user's
expense and is not covered by the warranty [32]. Apple has recently
changed its policy however and is accepting damaged MacBook Airs for
repair even when out of warranty[33]. Users who previously paid for
these repairs can also request a refund. Some display distortions have
appeared on some machines of the late 2008 version as well.[34]"

Maybe iPad won't have so many problems.  It doesn't have a hinge, USB
port, high speed processor to overheat and lock up.  Let's hope it runs
longer on a charge....  Are they still running Air on only one of the
two CPU cores in half-assed mode to cool it down?

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Larry

nospam - 12 Feb 2010 00:30 GMT
> My money is on 256K of RAM.  RAM takes POWER.  More RAM = More POWER,
> something the tiny battery demanded by "thin", a stupid requirement of
> the fans, simply cannot provide.

ram takes very little power.

> At least Newton OS allowed user-installed programs, even if it was in a
> queer, PROPRIETARY (keyword), environment different from everything
> else.

the ipad, iphone and ipod touch all allow user installed programs.
Steve de Mena - 12 Feb 2010 01:43 GMT
>> At least Newton OS allowed user-installed programs, even if it was in a
>> queer, PROPRIETARY (keyword), environment different from everything
>> else.
>
> the ipad, iphone and ipod touch all allow user installed programs.

No they don't.

Like http://bit.ly/91SDSc

Steve
Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 04:51 GMT
> >> At least Newton OS allowed user-installed programs, even if it was in a
> >> queer, PROPRIETARY (keyword), environment different from everything
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> No they don't.

Oh, they do. And if you don't like Apple's approval procedure, it is
possible to jailbreak them.

Then you can put 3rd party applications to run in the background. You
can even turn the iPhone into a WiFi hotspot with MyWi ...

> Like http://bit.ly/91SDSc
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Larry - 12 Feb 2010 02:07 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:110220101630330297%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

> the ipad, iphone and ipod touch all allow user installed programs.

Specifically, which user programs have YOU installed on an iPhone that
isn't jailbroken to allow such things?

iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed program,
it's an APPLE installed program.

List them....we'll wait.

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Larry

Michelle Steiner - 12 Feb 2010 05:14 GMT
> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
> program, it's an APPLE installed program.

No, it's not.  I download and install them, so it's a user installed
program.

You do not get to make up your own definitions just to suit your own agenda.

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Steve de Mena - 12 Feb 2010 10:52 GMT
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:110220101630330297%
> nospam@nospam.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> List them....we'll wait.

I think he'll tell you to sign up for the Apple developer's program at
about $100 and then you can write your own programs & install them.
And he'll have a straight face as he writes it.

Steve
nospam - 12 Feb 2010 17:59 GMT
> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed program,
> it's an APPLE installed program.

it's user installed.

the user picks the app, the user installs it. apple has nothing to do
with it, other than hosting the apps and providing a way to download
and install them (itunes).
Michelle Steiner - 12 Feb 2010 18:14 GMT
> > iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
> > program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> with it, other than hosting the apps and providing a way to download and
> install them (itunes).

By Larry's reasoning, Office is Microsoft Installed, and not user installed.

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nospam - 12 Feb 2010 18:19 GMT
> By Larry's reasoning,

is that possible?

> Office is Microsoft Installed, and not user installed.

many times it is preinstalled.
John Navas - 12 Feb 2010 19:27 GMT
>> > iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>> > program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>By Larry's reasoning, Office is Microsoft Installed, and not user installed.

It's usually installed by the OEM system builder from a Microsoft kit,
not the user.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Richard B. Gilbert - 12 Feb 2010 20:11 GMT
>>>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>>>> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It's usually installed by the OEM system builder from a Microsoft kit,
> not the user.

No system I have ever purchased has included MS Office, pre-installed or
not!  It would add $300-$500 to the price of the machine and be
completely useless to some purchasers.  There are those who would argue
that Office is useless to anyone!
Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 20:33 GMT
> > It's usually installed by the OEM system builder from a Microsoft kit,
> > not the user.
>
> No system I have ever purchased has included MS Office, pre-installed or
> not!

It is a common way of doing it when the purchaser is a company or an
organization. I have a laptop with with Windows and MS Office on such an
OEM agreement.
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Jim Mason - 12 Feb 2010 20:47 GMT
> > > It's usually installed by the OEM system builder from a Microsoft kit,
> > > not the user.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> organization. I have a laptop with with Windows and MS Office on such an
> OEM agreement.

Every recent new laptop I have seen from Dell and Toshiba has had Office
2007 60 day trial pre-installed.
Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 04:51 GMT
> > > > It's usually installed by the OEM system builder from a Microsoft kit,
> > > > not the user.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Every recent new laptop I have seen from Dell and Toshiba has had Office
> 2007 60 day trial pre-installed.

Which isn't really the same. I think Leopard came with a trial-version
of Office 2004 too.
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Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 05:04 GMT
> > Every recent new laptop I have seen from Dell and Toshiba has had
> > Office 2007 60 day trial pre-installed.
>
> Which isn't really the same. I think Leopard came with a trial-version
> of Office 2004 too.

No; Leopard did not.  A brand new Macintosh, running Leopard, might have,
though.

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Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 10:14 GMT
> > > Every recent new laptop I have seen from Dell and Toshiba has had
> > > Office 2007 60 day trial pre-installed.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No; Leopard did not.  A brand new Macintosh, running Leopard, might have,
> though.

Well, I think my MacBook came with Tiger. Leopard just didn't remove the
Office 2004 trial version from that installation.
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Todd Allcock - 19 Feb 2010 19:36 GMT
>>>>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>>>>> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> useless to some purchasers.  There are those who would argue that Office
> is useless to anyone!

When did you buy your last PC?  Office 2007 was often pre-installed on most
"name-brand" (Dell, HP, etc.) Vista systems, since MS offers a 60-day free
trial to anyone.  The pre-installed version simply expired in 60 days after
first run if not purchased, and a valid activation key entered.  This saved
forcing trial users from having to download all 400GB of Office (ok, I'm
exaggerating a little) to their PC just to give it a spin.  It also
simplified/cheapened bundling Office for system builders- they could throw
it on every PC they sold, but only supply the hologram/license/activation
key/secret decoder ring/whatever to users who paid for it.
Richard B. Gilbert - 20 Feb 2010 01:16 GMT
>>>>>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>>>>>> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> hologram/license/activation key/secret decoder ring/whatever to users
> who paid for it.

It was a while ago!  I don't recall exactly when.  It's an HP DC5750
Microtower if that tells you anything about the vintage.  It's probably
hopelessly obsolete by now but it gets the job done!
Michelle Steiner - 12 Feb 2010 23:53 GMT
> >> > iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
> >> > program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> It's usually installed by the OEM system builder from a Microsoft kit,
> not the user.

I have yet to see a Mac with Office (other than an evaluation copy)
installed by Apple.  Nor have I seen upgrades to Office installed by the
OEM.

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nospam - 12 Feb 2010 23:56 GMT
> I have yet to see a Mac with Office (other than an evaluation copy)
> installed by Apple.  Nor have I seen upgrades to Office installed by the
> OEM.

office is commonly bundled on windows boxes. it's rarely bundled the
mac other than from a dealer with a custom configuration. some dealers
even include vmware+windows.
ZnU - 13 Feb 2010 04:28 GMT
> > I have yet to see a Mac with Office (other than an evaluation copy)
> > installed by Apple.  Nor have I seen upgrades to Office installed by the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> mac other than from a dealer with a custom configuration. some dealers
> even include vmware+windows.

You can order it from Apple doing a build-to-order config, but I'm
pretty sure they don't pre-install it for you. (Hardly anyone I know
with a Mac even uses MS Office anymore.)

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Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 05:07 GMT
> > office is commonly bundled on windows boxes. it's rarely bundled the
> > mac other than from a dealer with a custom configuration. some dealers
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> pretty sure they don't pre-install it for you. (Hardly anyone I know
> with a Mac even uses MS Office anymore.)

If you order it as a BTO option, they will pre-install it for you.  (I just
checked the online store.)  But if you buy it in a B&M store, you merely
buy the box along with the computer.  Or buy it later.

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John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 02:01 GMT
>> > I have yet to see a Mac with Office (other than an evaluation copy)
>> > installed by Apple.  Nor have I seen upgrades to Office installed by the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>pretty sure they don't pre-install it for you. (Hardly anyone I know
>with a Mac even uses MS Office anymore.)

Outlooked Office for Mac 2011 unveiled
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/12/office_for_mac_2011/>

Microsoft has announced Office for Mac 2011, which will replace the
much-maligned Entourage with Outlook, restore Visual Basic support, and
add what Redmond's MacBU (Macintosh business unit) calls "new
co-authoring tools."

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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Your Name - 14 Feb 2010 04:48 GMT
> >> > I have yet to see a Mac with Office (other than an evaluation copy)
> >> > installed by Apple.  Nor have I seen upgrades to Office installed by the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> add what Redmond's MacBU (Macintosh business unit) calls "new
> co-authoring tools."

It will also add the silly "ribbon" user-interface (or with Microsoft's it's
more a case of "useless interface"). :-(  Thankfully you will apparently be
able to turn it off.
John Navas - 13 Feb 2010 18:25 GMT
>> >> > iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>> >> > program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>installed by Apple.  Nor have I seen upgrades to Office installed by the
>OEM.

Upgrades are installed automatically by Microsoft over the Net.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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Your Name - 13 Feb 2010 20:47 GMT
> >> >> > iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
> >> >> > program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Upgrades are installed automatically by Microsoft over the Net.

Only if the user wants them to. Personally I set all upgrades to be done
manually.
Richard B. Gilbert - 13 Feb 2010 21:24 GMT
>>>>>>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>>>>>>> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Only if the user wants them to. Personally I set all upgrades to be done
> manually.

Me too.  If Microsoft's patches don't fix a problem that I *have*, or
can reasonably expect to have, I won't install them!  My system works
just fine the way it is and I'd like to keep it that way.
John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 02:59 GMT
>> Only if the user wants them to. Personally I set all upgrades to be done
>> manually.
>
>Me too.  If Microsoft's patches don't fix a problem that I *have*, or
>can reasonably expect to have, I won't install them!  My system works
>just fine the way it is and I'd like to keep it that way.

The more important updates are security fixes, which should _always_ be
installed as soon as possible.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 02:58 GMT
>> >> >> > iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>> >> >> > program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Only if the user wants them to.

They are by default.

>Personally I set all upgrades to be done
>manually.

Me too, but not average folks I know.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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Your Name - 14 Feb 2010 04:45 GMT
> >> >> >> > iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
> >> >> >> > program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> They are by default.

It's been a while since I've had to install Mac Office, but I think it
checks for updates by default, but asks the user if they want to download
and install them.
Larry - 13 Feb 2010 20:27 GMT
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in news:michelle-
8EDFEB.11144412022010@news.eternal-september.org:

> By Larry's reasoning, Office is Microsoft Installed, and not user installed.

No, by Larry's reasoning, in this case, I have a CHOICE to install Office
or anything else that will work, such as Open Office for free.

Your choice on Iphone/iPad/iTouch is the app store choice, not something
from somewhere else....which is the point.

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Larry

nospam - 13 Feb 2010 21:05 GMT
> Your choice on Iphone/iPad/iTouch is the app store choice, not something
> from somewhere else....which is the point.

nonsense. the apps store is just a store. the user chooses which apps
to install.
Jochem Huhmann - 13 Feb 2010 22:13 GMT
> No, by Larry's reasoning, in this case, I have a CHOICE to install Office
> or anything else that will work, such as Open Office for free.

Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.

> Your choice on Iphone/iPad/iTouch is the app store choice, not something
> from somewhere else....which is the point.

Which is the point if you make it the point. If you don't care it is
just a very handy one-stop shop for all your app needs.

I do not say that Apple is not controlling what you can install, mind
you. I just doubt that most people care about it or that it makes a
difference at all. In almost all cases it's just a very handy way to
distribute and sell and buy apps. We *could* start to discuss the very
few cases where it's a limitation but to do that you would have first to
accept that in all remaining cases it's a feature, not a bug...

       Jochem

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John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 03:02 GMT
>> No, by Larry's reasoning, in this case, I have a CHOICE to install Office
>> or anything else that will work, such as Open Office for free.
>
>Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.

Probably the most widely cross-platform of any office suite.

>> Your choice on Iphone/iPad/iTouch is the app store choice, not something
>> from somewhere else....which is the point.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>few cases where it's a limitation but to do that you would have first to
>accept that in all remaining cases it's a feature, not a bug...

It's a bug to anyone that doesn't like the limitation.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Larry - 14 Feb 2010 08:45 GMT
> Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.

Which is PRECISELY why you DON'T choose the OS FIRST, under some
mysterious loyalty to some corporation who has mesmerized you, but chose
the OS based on the software you want to run, the software that is
available.

It may not be the finest.  It may not be "the best".  It may not be the
"sexiest", whatever that stupidity may be....but that operating system
is Windows in 90% of the scenarios, not mac, certainly not iPhone/Ipad's
horrible hobbled-up nonsense.

Mac users have been waiting and waiting for software to be ported to it
since I can remember.  "When will the MAC version of "Ultracool 2.12" be
available?", they beg.  Now that Jobs has opened the door a little crack
to OSX, from the way it used to be, lots more porting is going on.  But,
alas, the company has had a relapse into its former self with the iPhone
OS, going back into absolute control of who gets in and who doesn't.

We can only hope this nonsense will, eventually, kick them in the a.s 
once again.  A whole new generation of "appliance operators", WebTV
types, has been bred by our halfassed public education system.  They
were very clever, distracting them away from what's IN the box by the
graphics of the video games on the screen OUTSIDE the box.  Fewer and
fewer young people I meet are interested in how the boxes can be
programmed to do things the boxes were never meant to, which made
today's computing the fantastic cyberspace that it has become.  This
means fewer and fewer dedicated coders in the next generation dreaming
about new things the boxes can be made to do.  

"Cloud computing" tightly controlled by the Box Office Corporation,
ultimately so noone can ever peek inside the box, will be the ultimate
results.  Open computing as we know it, with all the innovations it has
spawned, will be replaced with a TV screen hooked up to a keyboard and
sealed up tight, where everything it does results in transfer of vast
sums of money to the Box Office Corporation, which is the ONLY point to
this exercise.

Computing will be dead.  When it happens, the box will become just
another "ho hum" kitchen appliance like the undercounter radio.  If you
want it to do something else, call 1-888-FEED-ME-MONEY and enter your
PIN number or press the BUY ME button on the screen......exactly like
iPhone will become when the giveaway software is eliminated.

Just watch and listen......

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Larry

ZnU - 14 Feb 2010 09:12 GMT
> > Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> it since I can remember.  "When will the MAC version of "Ultracool
> 2.12" be available?", they beg.

Honestly, there's not a lot of that these days. Personally, I find
there's much more Mac-only software that I'd miss on other platforms
than non-Mac software that I'd like ported to the Mac.

> Now that Jobs has opened the door a little crack to OSX, from the way
> it used to be, lots more porting is going on.

This is incoherent. Mac OS development has always been essentially
open, or at least for the last couple of decades.

> But, alas, the company has had a relapse into its former self with
> the iPhone OS, going back into absolute control of who gets in and
> who doesn't.

Of course the model that exists on iPhone OS is, in fact, highly
beneficial to developers. It prevents casual piracy, relieves developers
of the need to implement their own installation or update mechanisms,
provides payment processing, fulfillment, creates a mechanism for users
to discover your apps, etc.

> We can only hope this nonsense will, eventually, kick them in the a.s 
> once again.  A whole new generation of "appliance operators", WebTV
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> means fewer and fewer dedicated coders in the next generation dreaming
> about new things the boxes can be made to do.  

General-purpose computers are not going away. They just might not, in 10
or 20 years, be standard equipment on the desks of the sort of people
who today use them but barely understand them.

[snip]

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Your Name - 14 Feb 2010 20:14 GMT
> > Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
>
> Which is PRECISELY why you DON'T choose the OS FIRST, under some
> mysterious loyalty to some corporation who has mesmerized you, but chose
> the OS based on the software you want to run, the software that is
> available.
<snip>

Here we go again. Loser Larry and his moronic anti-Apple rant full of lies,
nonsense, and made-up crap. To misquote Mr T: Ignore the foo' who doesn't
know what he's talking about.
Adobe = Security Breech - 14 Feb 2010 22:00 GMT
> > > Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> nonsense, and made-up crap. To misquote Mr T: Ignore the foo' who doesn't
> know what he's talking about.

I just noticed the 'foo' and the 'loo' rhyme, coincidence?

Probably with Larry, for instance he doesn't believe all this
extraordinary  snow is part of the  expected events associated with
runaway global warming, but it is right  there in Al Gore's book.

Larry can not cope with obvious facts and chooses to selectively
ignore what others  see. Here it doesn't matter too much as it only
mislead fools who make wrong choices that eventually hurt themselves
or their friends and family. On the warming subject wrong information
and bullheaded opinions can lead to disaster for the whole world.
Richard B. Gilbert - 14 Feb 2010 22:54 GMT
>>>> Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
>>> Which is PRECISELY why you DON'T choose the OS FIRST, under some
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> or their friends and family. On the warming subject wrong information
> and bullheaded opinions can lead to disaster for the whole world.

Global warming?  Tell it to the people in NJ who have nearly two feet of
 snow!  At the very least, it must be some other part of the globe!
Michelle Steiner - 14 Feb 2010 23:19 GMT
> Global warming?  Tell it to the people in NJ who have nearly two feet of
> snow!  At the very least, it must be some other part of the globe!

Do you understand the difference between climate and weather?

I'm sure the Olympic athletes in Vancouver wished they had NJ's snow.

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Richard B. Gilbert - 15 Feb 2010 00:01 GMT
>> Global warming?  Tell it to the people in NJ who have nearly two feet of
>> snow!  At the very least, it must be some other part of the globe!
>
> Do you understand the difference between climate and weather?
>
> I'm sure the Olympic athletes in Vancouver wished they had NJ's snow.

So do I.  <sigh>
Michelle Steiner - 15 Feb 2010 00:56 GMT
> > I'm sure the Olympic athletes in Vancouver wished they had NJ's snow.
>
> So do I.  <sigh>

I can sympathize.  One of the reasons I moved to the desert southwest was
to avoid snow.  If I want snow, Flagstaff is only a few hours drive from
here.

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Your Name - 15 Feb 2010 03:32 GMT
> > > I'm sure the Olympic athletes in Vancouver wished they had NJ's snow.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to avoid snow.  If I want snow, Flagstaff is only a few hours drive from
> here.

It's stinky, sticky hot here (although raining today rather than glaring
sunshine) ... I hate summer!!  :-(  We don't get snow here, but they do
further south.
Michelle Steiner - 15 Feb 2010 03:47 GMT
In article
<your.name-1502101632560001@203-109-170-127.dial.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,

> It's stinky, sticky hot here (although raining today rather than glaring
> sunshine) ... I hate summer!!  :-(  We don't get snow here, but they do
> further south.

Oz, or NZ?

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Your Name - 15 Feb 2010 05:26 GMT
> In article
> <your.name-1502101632560001@203-109-170-127.dial.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Oz, or NZ?

New Zealand. I'm near the top, but there are mountains, snow, and ski fields
further south.

There is snow in some areas of Australia too.
Your Name - 15 Feb 2010 00:14 GMT
> >>>> Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
> >>> Which is PRECISELY why you DON'T choose the OS FIRST, under some
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Global warming?  Tell it to the people in NJ who have nearly two feet of
>   snow!  At the very least, it must be some other part of the globe!

"Global Warming" is a term far too easily misunderstood and misused by
idiots who have no idea what they're talking about (like Loser Larry),
which is why it's now called "Climate Change".
Fa-groon - 15 Feb 2010 07:56 GMT
> <j...@gmx.net> wrote innews:m2sk94n5s2.fsf@revier.com:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> idiots who have no idea what they're talking about (like Loser Larry),
> which is why it's now called "Climate Change".

I suspect that those to whom human-caused Global Warming is a religion (like
Al Gore) will still be blaming the human race for warming the planet when we
slip into the next ice age...
Michelle Steiner - 15 Feb 2010 15:49 GMT
> I suspect that those to whom human-caused Global Warming is a religion

In other words, no one.

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Fa-groon - 15 Feb 2010 19:14 GMT
>> I suspect that those to whom human-caused Global Warming is a religion
>
> In other words, no one.

Don't get around much, do you Michelle?
Michelle Steiner - 15 Feb 2010 19:20 GMT
> >> I suspect that those to whom human-caused Global Warming is a religion
> >
> > In other words, no one.
>
> Don't get around much, do you Michelle?

I get around enough to recognize lies like that one you're spouting.

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Your Name - 15 Feb 2010 20:15 GMT
> > <j...@gmx.net> wrote innews:m2sk94n5s2.fsf@revier.com:
> >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Al Gore) will still be blaming the human race for warming the planet when we
> slip into the next ice age...

And here we have a prime example of one of those idiots who misunderstands
the term.  :-\
Fa-groon - 16 Feb 2010 00:06 GMT
>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:14:51 -0800, Your Name wrote
>> (in article
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> And here we have a prime example of one of those idiots who misunderstands
> the term.  :-\

Talk about Kool-aide drinkers!
Michelle Steiner - 16 Feb 2010 00:19 GMT
> >>> "Global Warming" is a term far too easily misunderstood and misused
> >>> by idiots who have no idea what they're talking about (like Loser
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Talk about Kool-aide drinkers!

That's about the level of Global-climate-change deniers; all bluster, and
not much else.

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-hh - 15 Feb 2010 13:14 GMT
> Global warming?  Tell it to the people in NJ who have nearly two feet of
>   snow!  At the very least, it must be some other part of the globe!

Bah.   This is part of the normal *climate* of NJ:  average annual
winter precipitation is around 12" of water, which when you look at
NOAA records which says that Newark averages 28" of snow, means a
water-->snow conversion ratio of less than 3 ... that means that the
typical winter precip is very wet snow, sleet or freezing rain.
Because of coastal effects, a few degrees temperature makes for the
difference between snow or slush/rain.

And what does happen is that around every ~5 years - - check out the
cycles of El Nino - - a slightly colder than average winter results in
the same precip falling more as snow than freezing rain, so it is then
noticeable.   And for these , every 2nd or 3rd one of these, the snows
stack up.  Immediately offhand, I can recall heavy snowfall years in
'78, 83, 93, 96  ... for example:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_blizzard_of_1996>

And if we check out El Nino, we will recall that we had one this past
summer ... it gave shearing winds to the Caribbean, which killed the
formation of hurricanes in the Caribbean Sea / Gulf of Mexico.   And
if we recall that a hurricane is merely a big heat engine that moves
energy from the equatorial to the northern hemisphere, we just might
conclude that if one "turned off the heat" back in August, then the
northern hemisphere would have started the winter cooler and thus
would be expected to reach cooler temperatures that following winter -
-

- - of course, from a 'conservation of energy' perspective, this would
also have to mean that the heat would have to be still "stuck" down
south.   So we might want to go cross-check this theory by looking at
some NOAA weather buoys in the Caribbean.

Hmmm.  Buoy # 42057 is reporting 81.3F this morning.

Now keep in mind that the NOAA National Hurricane Center (NHC) uses
the rule of thumb that the water temperature threshold for the
formation of hurricanes (traditional season is June through November)
is 80F.

-hh
Richard B. Gilbert - 14 Feb 2010 22:44 GMT
>>> Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> nonsense, and made-up crap. To misquote Mr T: Ignore the foo' who doesn't
> know what he's talking about.

Knock of the ad hominems!  They aren't going to make him any smarter, or
any easier to share a newsgroup with. . . .  If you just can't stand it,
 "kill file" him.
Your Name - 15 Feb 2010 05:27 GMT
> >>> Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> any easier to share a newsgroup with. . . .  If you just can't stand it,
>   "kill file" him.

I'd prefer to do the plaent a favour and leave out the "file" part of that.
Richard B. Gilbert - 15 Feb 2010 14:13 GMT
>>>>> Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> I'd prefer to do the plaent a favour and leave out the "file" part of that.

It's no use.  Someone else would come along to fill the ecological niche!
Your Name - 16 Feb 2010 00:10 GMT
> >>>>> Only if OO is available for your OS of choice, of course.
> >>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> It's no use.  Someone else would come along to fill the ecological niche!

Unfortuately true because pond scum does replicate very quickly.  :-(
Michelle Steiner - 14 Feb 2010 22:40 GMT
> Mac users have been waiting and waiting for software to be ported to it
> since I can remember.

Excel was out for the Mac way before it was out for Windows.
MS Works was out for the Mac way before it was out for Windows.
The GUI version of MS Word was out for the Mac way before it was out for
Windows.
Photoshop was out for the Mac way before it was out for Windows.
Powerpoint was out for the Mac way before it was out for Windows.

Other than Microsoft's proprietary Outlook, what significant software have
Mac users been waiting for a port of?

Your hatred of Jobs and Apple is irrational, just like all your other
hatreds.  Do you have any emotions other than hate, Larry?

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Your Name - 15 Feb 2010 00:17 GMT
> > Mac users have been waiting and waiting for software to be ported to it
> > since I can remember.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Other than Microsoft's proprietary Outlook, what significant software have
> Mac users been waiting for a port of?

The only piece of software I know that people are wanting a Mac version of
is AutoCAD, even then it is only a few people wanting that.
Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 23:59 GMT
> > By Larry's reasoning, Office is Microsoft Installed, and not user
> > installed.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Your choice on Iphone/iPad/iTouch is the app store choice, not something
> from somewhere else....which is the point.

Regardless, it is the user's choice whether to install the software, and
which software to install.

Therefore the software is user installed, despite your sophistry.

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John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 03:03 GMT
>> > By Larry's reasoning, Office is Microsoft Installed, and not user
>> > installed.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Therefore the software is user installed, despite your sophistry.

Your sophistry:
Feathers are light.
The sun gives off light.
Therefore the sun gives off feathers.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Michelle Steiner - 14 Feb 2010 04:51 GMT
> >Regardless, it is the user's choice whether to install the software, and
> >which software to install.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The sun gives off light.
> Therefore the sun gives off feathers.

You have a vivid imagination, trollboi; too bad it's not grounded in
reality.

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John Navas - 14 Feb 2010 05:38 GMT
>> >Regardless, it is the user's choice whether to install the software, and
>> >which software to install.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>You have a vivid imagination, trollboi; too bad it's not grounded in
>reality.

You've proved my point yet again.

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If the iPhone is really so impressive,
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Michelle Steiner - 14 Feb 2010 22:35 GMT
> >> >Regardless, it is the user's choice whether to install the software,
> >> >and which software to install.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> You've proved my point yet again.

Keep repeating that mantra; it keeps proving my point, not yours.

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Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 02:03 GMT
>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed program,
>> it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> with it, other than hosting the apps and providing a way to download
> and install them (itunes).

You seem to be one of those who writes a definition to fit YOUR needs,
regardless of general usage/understanding.

Steve
Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 03:09 GMT
> >> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
> >> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You seem to be one of those who writes a definition to fit YOUR needs,
> regardless of general usage/understanding.

I'd ask you to provide some examples of that, but since you can't, I won't.

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Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 04:47 GMT
>>>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>>>> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I'd ask you to provide some examples of that, but since you can't, I won't.

Wasn't talking to you.  Go away.

Steve
Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 05:08 GMT
> >>>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
> >>>> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> Wasn't talking to you.  Go away.

This is usenet, Stevie; when you post something on a newsgroup, you're
talking to everyone reading the message.

But you're FOS, and you know it.

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Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 08:42 GMT
>>>>>> iTunes installing an apple-approved program ISN'T a user-installed
>>>>>> program, it's an APPLE installed program.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> But you're FOS, and you know it.

If you need an example, than it is nospam's definition of "user
installed", as in Apple allows user installed apps.  They don't
(without jail breaking), but according to his definition, they do.

Steve
nospam - 13 Feb 2010 13:15 GMT
> If you need an example, than it is nospam's definition of "user
> installed", as in Apple allows user installed apps.  They don't
> (without jail breaking), but according to his definition, they do.

so what does 'user installed' mean to you? how does the user who
downloads an app and installs it not qualify as user installed? who did
the installation?
Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 13:35 GMT
>> If you need an example, than it is nospam's definition of "user
>> installed", as in Apple allows user installed apps.  They don't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> downloads an app and installs it not qualify as user installed? who did
> the installation?

Play your semantics games with someone else.  The iPhone is LOCKED
from us installing our own apps.

Were you the one who said most Apple rejected apps were because of
bugs and you had no problems with their draconian process?

How about this:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Google/?p=1710

Steve
KDT - 13 Feb 2010 14:26 GMT
> > In article <DZCdnYlkZcSU--vWnZ2dnUVZ_sVi4...@giganews.com>, Steve de
> > Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Play your semantics games with someone else.  The iPhone is LOCKED
> from us installing our own apps.

"Words Mean Things"

> Were you the one who said most Apple rejected apps were because of
> bugs and you had no problems with their draconian process?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Steve

You do know the difference between "most" and "all" don't you?  Just
because you can point to one example where an app wasn't rejected
because of bugs doesn't refute the statement that "most" are.
Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 14:33 GMT
>>> In article <DZCdnYlkZcSU--vWnZ2dnUVZ_sVi4...@giganews.com>, Steve de
>>> Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> because you can point to one example where an app wasn't rejected
> because of bugs doesn't refute the statement that "most" are.

You know how many stories there are like the one above?  And that
behavior doesn't bother you at all?

Steve
Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 17:08 GMT
> You know how many stories there are like the one above?  And that
> behavior doesn't bother you at all?

Do you know how many stories are like the one above?  I doubt that you do.

Oh, your implication that Apple rejected the app is false.  Apple merely
asked for a change in the description of the app, to remove a reference to
a competing product.

Please keep scrambling; it shows how desperate you are.

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Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 19:26 GMT
>> You know how many stories there are like the one above?  And that
>> behavior doesn't bother you at all?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Please keep scrambling; it shows how desperate you are.

I guess you create your own definitions too.  According to yours, no
application is "rejected" as they can be revised and re-submitted.

*PLONK*

Steve
nospam - 13 Feb 2010 19:47 GMT
> I guess you create your own definitions too.  According to yours, no
> application is "rejected" as they can be revised and re-submitted.

all rejected apps can be revised and resubmitted after fixing whatever
it was that caused the rejection.
Michelle Steiner - 14 Feb 2010 00:02 GMT
> > Please keep scrambling; it shows how desperate you are.
>
> I guess you create your own definitions too.  According to yours, no
> application is "rejected" as they can be revised and re-submitted.
>
> *PLONK*

Well, since you stuck your head in the sand like the coward you are, you
won't see it when I tell you to f.ck off, douche bag.

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Larry - 14 Feb 2010 08:49 GMT
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in news:michelle-
A27754.17022413022010@news.eternal-september.org:

> Well, since you stuck your head in the sand like the coward you are, you
> won't see it when I tell you to f.ck off, douche bag.

When cornered, Mikey always starts the dirty name calling to deflect the
unpleasant issues being discussed.

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Michelle Steiner - 14 Feb 2010 22:42 GMT
> > Well, since you stuck your head in the sand like the coward you are, you
> > won't see it when I tell you to f.ck off, douche bag.
>
> When cornered, Mikey always starts the dirty name calling to deflect the
> unpleasant issues being discussed.

Wrong again Laura; the only people I name call are those who instigate name
calling.

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nospam - 13 Feb 2010 18:06 GMT
> > You do know the difference between "most" and "all" don't you?  Just
> > because you can point to one example where an app wasn't rejected
> > because of bugs doesn't refute the statement that "most" are.
>
> You know how many stories there are like the one above?  

tell us, how many?
Adobe = Security Breech - 13 Feb 2010 16:20 GMT
> > In article <DZCdnYlkZcSU--vWnZ2dnUVZ_sVi4...@giganews.com>, Steve de

> > so what does 'user installed' mean to you? how does the user who
> > downloads an app and installs it not qualify as user installed? who did
> > the installation?
>
> Play your semantics games with someone else.  The iPhone is LOCKED
> from us installing our own apps.

> Steve

Steve this isn't for someone who does not have a clue, go buy an
Android or other piece of crap and leave us.

When I rip, I rip to play on TVPVR which also plays on iPhone. If I
want a smaller file for iPhone I set the software to either rip to
that size or to convert.

All the neat stuff i have does not need to rip to OGG or what ever for
audio, AAC is fine and widely compatible.

No one needs all the stuff you are whining about but if you do the
iPad/iPhone just isn't for you. Too bad  but that is no one else's
problem.
Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 16:53 GMT
> > so what does 'user installed' mean to you? how does the user who
> > downloads an app and installs it not qualify as user installed? who
> > did the installation?
>
> Play your semantics games with someone else.

You are the one playing semantic games.  I'd ask you to be honest, but that
would be a futile request.

> The iPhone is LOCKED
> from us installing our own apps.

You write your own apps for the iPhone?  Who woulda guessed?

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nospam - 13 Feb 2010 18:06 GMT
> > so what does 'user installed' mean to you? how does the user who
> > downloads an app and installs it not qualify as user installed? who did
> > the installation?
>
> Play your semantics games with someone else.  The iPhone is LOCKED
> from us installing our own apps.

mine isn't, and you still haven't answered my question. what is your
definition of 'user installed', and why is an app that the user buys on
itunes and installs, not user installed?

> Were you the one who said most Apple rejected apps were because of
> bugs and you had no problems with their draconian process?

*apple* said most were rejected due to bugs, which is actually a good
thing. customers don't want buggy software (and there's too much of
that as it is). apple does reject a few apps that shouldn't have been
rejected (e.g., google voice), but a few out of 150k is noise.
Steve de Mena - 13 Feb 2010 19:27 GMT
>>> so what does 'user installed' mean to you? how does the user who
>>> downloads an app and installs it not qualify as user installed? who did
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> definition of 'user installed', and why is an app that the user buys on
> itunes and installs, not user installed?

Here is my answer.

*PLONK*
Michelle Steiner - 14 Feb 2010 00:01 GMT
> > mine isn't, and you still haven't answered my question. what is your
> > definition of 'user installed', and why is an app that the user buys
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> *PLONK*

In other words, you don't have the courage, integrity or self esteem to
admit it when you're wrong.

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-hh - 14 Feb 2010 00:52 GMT
> > > mine isn't, and you still haven't answered my question. what is your
> > > definition of 'user installed', and why is an app that the user buys
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> In other words, you don't have the courage, integrity or self esteem to
> admit it when you're wrong.

I liked your other (supposedly killfiled) response better :-)

-hh
Michelle Steiner - 13 Feb 2010 16:51 GMT
> If you need an example, than it is nospam's definition of "user
> installed", as in Apple allows user installed apps.  They don't (without
> jail breaking), but according to his definition, they do.

Any application downloaded by the user and installed on the iPhone is user
installed.

Your misrepresentation of "nospam's" definition is duplicitous.

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Your Name - 13 Feb 2010 20:44 GMT
> If you need an example, than it is nospam's definition of "user
> installed", as in Apple allows user installed apps.  They don't
> (without jail breaking), but according to his definition, they do.

Please just ignore this (yet another) anti-Apple moron.  :-\
nospam - 13 Feb 2010 04:54 GMT
> > the user picks the app, the user installs it. apple has nothing to do
> > with it, other than hosting the apps and providing a way to download
> > and install them (itunes).
>
> You seem to be one of those who writes a definition to fit YOUR needs,
> regardless of general usage/understanding.

what exactly is 'user installed' then, if not by the user?
Dennis Ferguson - 12 Feb 2010 05:42 GMT
> A lot of the Newton's advanced features, like handwriting recognition,
> have been deleted from iPad.  How would you do handwriting on a device
> that doesn't have a high resolution, stylus-based touchscreen?

I don't think you need a stylus, and I don't think they've given up
on handwriting recognition.  On the Chinese language version of the
iPhone software the most common way I've seen people entering text is
to trace out the character with their fingertip on the part of the
screen where the keyboard would normally be until the phone figures
out what they're writing and offers them the right character
to insert.  If this works at all for Chinese (and it seems to) it
would be a snap for Latin letters, which are both much simpler and much
less numerous than Chinese characters and hence in much less need of
having a precise way to screen-write them for the phone to recognize.
If a finger is good enough for Chinese it has to be good enough for
Latin.

I suspect the reason they don't do handwriting recognition for
languages using the Latin alphabet is that they've decided the
keyboard screen is just easier and faster than finger (or
stylus) writing.  I don't doubt this.  For Chinese there are
way too many characters for a keyboard, so handwriting recognition
is probably better for that.

Dennis Ferguson
ZnU - 12 Feb 2010 06:14 GMT
> > A lot of the Newton's advanced features, like handwriting recognition,
> > have been deleted from iPad.  How would you do handwriting on a device
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Dennis Ferguson

Writing Latin character set languages long-hand is typically slower than
typing, even on an iPhone-sized on-screen keyboard, at least according
to some informal testing I've seen. The difference with the iPad's
larger on-screen keyboard will likely be even larger.

IMO the whole PDA handwriting recognition thing never made much sense.
It happened for two reasons, as far as I can tell. First, the Newton
took the whole "It's a notepad, but it's digital!" metaphor a little too
literally. Second, I think early PDA vendors wanted to distinguish their
products from the more primitive "personal organizer" products on the
market at the time, which mostly had small QWERTY keyboards. Handwriting
recognition seemed sufficiently advanced and futuristic to do that.

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Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 06:21 GMT
> > A lot of the Newton's advanced features, like handwriting recognition,
> > have been deleted from iPad.  How would you do handwriting on a device
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> way too many characters for a keyboard, so handwriting recognition
> is probably better for that.

Just search for 'handwriting' on the AppStore ... the apps do exist.

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-hh - 12 Feb 2010 11:59 GMT
> I suspect the reason they don't do handwriting recognition for
> languages using the Latin alphabet is that they've decided the
> keyboard screen is just easier and faster than finger (or
> stylus) writing.  I don't doubt this.  For Chinese there are
> way too many characters for a keyboard, so handwriting recognition
> is probably better for that.

Logical, although it would be nice to have the option ... perhaps a
work-around would be to buy the rights to the old Palm PDA character
outlines ... where it doesn't work well, it can have its shortcomings
"deflected" to Palm .. being that there is a group of legacy Palm
PDA'ers out there, some of whom used to be quite fast at entry and are
today merely tolerating Blackberry keyboards.

-hh
Your Name - 12 Feb 2010 20:49 GMT
> > A lot of the Newton's advanced features, like handwriting recognition,
> > have been deleted from iPad.  How would you do handwriting on a device
> > that doesn't have a high resolution, stylus-based touchscreen?
>
> I don't think you need a stylus, and I don't think they've given up
> on handwriting recognition.
<snip>

Last time I looked (admitedly a while back), the handwriting recognition
software "Ink" was still part of Mac OS X, so could already be in iPhone OS
or be "easily" added. The biggest problem would probably be trying to
handwrite with your finger on an iPhone-size screen - even in landscape mode
you'd be lucky to get more than a couple of words in.
John Navas - 12 Feb 2010 16:03 GMT
>per@RQNNE.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote in news:1jdqz52.ttw7xz1eh6sumN%
>per@RQNNE.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>something the tiny battery demanded by "thin", a stupid requirement of
>the fans, simply cannot provide.

RAM consumes far less power than other components, and thus really isn't
a power issue.

>[HUGE SNIP]

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John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 11 Feb 2010 12:05 GMT
> How much RAM does the iPad have?

unknown at this time, but the iphone 3gs has 256 meg and older iphones
have 128 meg. the operating system itself use some of that.
Steve de Mena - 11 Feb 2010 08:33 GMT
>>>> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
>>>> multitasking.  
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> how else can an iphone receive phone calls, sms messages or email while
> using another app? or how safari can stream audio when not running?

Don't be so dense.  You know exactly what is meant by "the iPad
doesn't have multitasking".

God, at least I hope so.

>> If they could fit a camera into the iPad nano (iPhone 3GS) I bet they
>> could squeeze that into the iPad.  They probably don't have the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the iphone has had a camera for 2.5 years and ships with a camera app.
> there is also a lot of camera software available on the store.

Is "iChat" a camera app?  Nope.  It should have been obvious I meant a
forward-facing camera for video chats.

>> No it doesn't have a card reader.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ok, it's not like the card reader will work with something other than
> an ipad.

Right, so any add-on product for a computer or smartphone will
automatically be considered as being a standard feature of that device
and we can answer "Yes".   Like "Does the Mac Air come with a DVD
drive?"  "Yes".

LOL.

Steve
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 06:47 GMT
Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in news:Ht-
dnb_ua8DKve_WnZ2dnUVZ_hdi4p2d@giganews.com:

> It doesn't explain why we couldn't have a camera, or SD card slot, or
> multitasking.  That Apple's resources could not get the OS to work
> with all of this stuff and this is the best they could do to get the
> device out soon, is a more plausible explanation.

(wildly waving my hand from the back of the classroom to call the teacher's
attention)

I KNOW, I KNOW WHY IT DOESN'T DO COMPUTER THINGS!!

BECAUSE HOW IN HELL WILL YOU SELL AN AIR IF AN IPAD DOES COMPUTING FOR
$500?!

Jobs is terrified a cheap tablet that's NOT ALL HOBBLED UP will replace his
cash cow Macbook ripoffs!

Duhh.....(c;]

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Larry

Jochem Huhmann - 09 Feb 2010 22:28 GMT
> Why do we have to rationalize and make excuses for the simplest of common
> functions every $299 netbook easily does on a device that costs between
> $655 (with GPS/sellphone data radio) and over $1000?

Because it is *much* cheaper and simpler to just include whatever MS
offers anyway with their software and to install that onto the cheapest
all-purpose hardware than to think up and implement some clean and
integrated device?

> Shouldn't the MORE expensive device do just amazing things you cannot
> do on a $299 netbook, instead of the other way around?!!

No, not really. I mean, what could such a device offer more than
everything? The trick is to do what's needed with less effort, less
danger and more elegance. Do you use a chainsaw for cutting your bread?
It can do EVERYTHING after all. See, it can even cut trees, it must be
good enough to cut your bread! See, that computer can be used to run a
lab and to run an office, it must be good enough for your private needs
and of these of your family! Not.

> Shouldn't the MORE expensive device at LEAST do what a $299 netbook will do
> at 1/2 to 1/3 the price?!

Who cares about what the DEVICE can do? It's what the USER can do or not
do with reasonable effort what counts to most people. Computers don't
use themselves. Users use computers. It's cheap and simple to make a
device that can do everything badly.

Again, in most developed countries about 80% of the population are using
computers now. On average these people are of average intelligence, but
most of them are not inclined to nor have they got the time to fight a
"full computer" for everything they may need a computer for. Apple is
totally right in offering them an alternative device. If you don't need
it, fine. If nobody will need or want it, fine. We will see. But why do
you fight the very idea?

       Jochem

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Larry - 09 Feb 2010 22:52 GMT
> Who cares about what the DEVICE can do?

So, the answer is to rationalize and make excuses and bury your head up
your a.s next to Apple's appendage.

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Larry

Jochem Huhmann - 09 Feb 2010 23:29 GMT
>> Who cares about what the DEVICE can do?
>
> So, the answer is to rationalize and make excuses and bury your head up
> your a.s next to Apple's appendage.

Well, *I* use Emacs to write and to post this and not some dumbed down
Windows app...

Seriously: What do you suggest to satisfy the needs of people who want
to use the Internet and computers for their daily needs and do not want
to waste more than a few minutes at a time to deal with this because
they may have more important things to do?

Or do you just suggest to move back to the times when only the
technophiles and IT professionals used all this? What do you suggest to
cut down on malware and botnets running on the millions of neglected
machines all around the world? Educate the users? Require them to become
pros? Really? Just to be able to use the web and email and YouTube and
some word processing? This is madness.

I think there is no easy answer and what Apple does is an experiment
that is fully worth to be tried. Just crying "all computers should be
fully functional PCs and all people should learn to use them properly"
is not an answer at all. This is a kind of mindless elitism that helps
noone. Most people fully expect computers to be like cars they start and
drive away in and then stop somewhere and lock them up and be done with
it.

       Jochem

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Todd Allcock - 10 Feb 2010 05:22 GMT
> I think there is no easy answer and what Apple does is an experiment
> that is fully worth to be tried. Just crying "all computers should be
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> drive away in and then stop somewhere and lock them up and be done with
> it.

I don't disagree with your points, but I'd like to make two comments;
first, I think there's an equal amount of elitism in the idea that
today's computers are so hard to use that the unwashed masses are craving
some type of internet appliance that will make computing as easy as
driving a car.  My two oldest kids (11 and 8) have no problem peforming
basic computing tasks- they install new software themselves, surf the
web, use email, YouTube, eBay, etc. (Mom or Dad do the actual bidding,
though!)  The 11 year-old has his own PC that I never use (but inspect
periodically- he's 11 after all!) and he's never had a virus, and his PC
is free of spyware.  He even points out the obvious spam and phishing
atempts.  ("Hey Dad,  another 'Nigerian Prince' needs our help!  They
must have a big royal family!")

The youngest (5 years old) needs more help with a computer, of course-
maybe I'll get her an iPad!  ;)

Second, we all love the "car" analogy as the simple to operate piece of
equipment computers should strive to emulate, forgetting that, frankly,
cars aren't all that easy to operate!  Sure- they're second nature to us
_now_, because we've been driving for years, but driving acceptably well
enough to be licensed was a skill that takes weeks or months to acquire.
And that's today's dumbed-down "iPad" version of a car.  The previous
generations- you know, those idiots who can't manage to run a "real
computer," but need an appilance, also dealt with manual transmissions,
no power-assisted steering or brakes, foot pumps for window washers, and
a generation or two before that, also got to manually choke the engine,
and advance or retard the spark timing themselves as needed.    

If every computer user had the same amount and depth of instruction on a
computer that they had learning to drive, I doubt we'd need internet
appliances! ;)

I'm not saying there's no room in the market for an internet appliance,
it's just that the same arguments we used to hear for the "it just works"
Mac vs. the "insanely complex" PC has just been downgraded to the "it
just works" appliance and the "elitist" computer of all types.
Larry - 10 Feb 2010 07:32 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:KQrcn.37663$Fm7.22116
@newsfe16.iad:

> I don't disagree with your points, but I'd like to make two comments;
> first, I think there's an equal amount of elitism in the idea that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> atempts.  ("Hey Dad,  another 'Nigerian Prince' needs our help!  They
> must have a big royal family!")

If WebTV had sold well....if Newton had sold well....if many other net
appliances had sold well, I'd agree with you.  But, they lost their a.ses.

No, I think iPad/iPhone/iTouch has more to do with ARROGANCE than what the
masses want.  The masses have responded beyond the wildest dreams to the
recent netbook craze, a cheaper, longer running, less powerful laptop
unhobbled by the companies.  A netbook is the #1 selling product on
Amazon.com and THAT's really saying something!

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Larry

ZnU - 10 Feb 2010 18:11 GMT
> Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:KQrcn.37663$Fm7.22116
> @newsfe16.iad:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> If WebTV had sold well....if Newton had sold well....if many other net
> appliances had sold well, I'd agree with you.  But, they lost their a.ses.

WebTV didn't attract a rich community of third-party developers the way
the iPad will, and the web itself was much more limited then.

The Newton wasn't an Internet appliance, it was a PDA, which turned out
to have the wrong form factor (people wanted something pocket-sized for
personal organizer functions).

More generally, the argument "Other companies have not had mainstream
success with devices of type X, therefore Apple also won't" is not
especially interesting because Apple is demonstrably much better at this
than most other companies. In fact their success over the last 10 years
is largely based on entering markets where others are making little
headway and achieving mainstream success there. (For the sake of this
discussion, the mid-90's Apple that created the Newton might as well be
a different company.)

> No, I think iPad/iPhone/iTouch has more to do with ARROGANCE than what the
> masses want.  The masses have responded beyond the wildest dreams to the
> recent netbook craze, a cheaper, longer running, less powerful laptop
> unhobbled by the companies.  A netbook is the #1 selling product on
> Amazon.com and THAT's really saying something!

Netbook sales are expected to be ~40M in 2010. As of last quarter, Apple
was selling iPhones and iPod Touches at a rate of about 50M/year. What
were you saying about what the masses wanted?

I know that the fact that few people buy Apple products has for many
years provided the empirical basis for the anti-Apple worldview -- it's
the "proof" that Apple and Apple advocates are simply wrong about what
the market wants. The problem for anti-Apple folks is that it's just not
true anymore, but all of your talking points still take it for granted.

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Todd Allcock - 10 Feb 2010 23:12 GMT
> > I don't disagree with your points, but I'd like to make two comments;
> > first, I think there's an equal amount of elitism in the idea that
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> If WebTV had sold well....if Newton had sold well....if many other net
> appliances had sold well, I'd agree with you.  But, they lost their a.ses.

Yeah, but they failed because they didn't work well- ever use a WebTV?
Great idea, but it was stuck with a 56k modem, locked to a single
overpriced service provider, and the browser was hardly more capable than
a cell phone's.

Imagine if it used broadband, piggy-backed on your existing internet
service, could view flash, and had an intelligent zoom function that
worked as well as Opera for cell phones, so a single click took you from
a full page view to a zoom view?  Then you'd have something!

And there was nothing fundamentally wrong with Newton that wouldn't have
been ironed out in future revisions (or better hardware) if Apple had
stuck with it.  Instead, Palm picked up the ball and ran with it.

> No, I think iPad/iPhone/iTouch has more to do with ARROGANCE than what the
> masses want.  The masses have responded beyond the wildest dreams to the
> recent netbook craze, a cheaper, longer running, less powerful laptop
> unhobbled by the companies.  A netbook is the #1 selling product on
> Amazon.com and THAT's really saying something!

It says the masses want small, functional, and cheap, that's all- I
suspect that partially explains both their success and the iPhone's.  As
much as I pick on the iPhone's limitations (mostly because they're
"artificial" rather than any limitations of the hardware) it's a very
functional little device for $200 US.
Your Name - 11 Feb 2010 00:16 GMT
> Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:KQrcn.37663$Fm7.22116
> @newsfe16.iad:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> unhobbled by the companies.  A netbook is the #1 selling product on
> Amazon.com and THAT's really saying something!

It would really help if you got a braincell before posting message rather
than just constantly spouting a load of utter crap.  :-(
Jochem Huhmann - 10 Feb 2010 14:55 GMT
> I don't disagree with your points, but I'd like to make two comments;
> first, I think there's an equal amount of elitism in the idea that
> today's computers are so hard to use that the unwashed masses are craving
> some type of internet appliance that will make computing as easy as
> driving a car.

Yes, of course you're not wrong here. The thing is just that there *are*
people rather aggressively attacking things like the iPhone or the iPad
and wishing Apple to totally fail with it, while I haven't heard many
people wishing PCs ("full computers") to vanish from this planet.
Everyone knews that there's a place for these but somehow there are
people out there thinking that there is no and should be no place for
computing appliances.

> My two oldest kids (11 and 8) have no problem peforming basic
> computing tasks- they install new software themselves, surf the web,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> phishing atempts. ("Hey Dad, another 'Nigerian Prince' needs our help!
> They must have a big royal family!")

As I said already: The average computer user is of average intelligence
and therefore probably capabable of using a "normal" computer. The
question remains if all users actually *want* to deal with this.
Many people don't actually like computers but what they can do with them
and might just be very happy to do it with less effort. Those who *like*
complex technology and look at it as a kind of game and a thing to
explore will never understand that.

> If every computer user had the same amount and depth of instruction on a
> computer that they had learning to drive, I doubt we'd need internet
> appliances! ;)

Yes, car analogies are always lame...

> I'm not saying there's no room in the market for an internet appliance,
> it's just that the same arguments we used to hear for the "it just works"
> Mac vs. the "insanely complex" PC has just been downgraded to the "it
> just works" appliance and the "elitist" computer of all types.

I think this often boils down to people actually liking to spend their
time with complex technology and other people just accepting complexity
as long as there is no other option to get the same things done. And
then of course there are those peope who already have all the fun they
can bear with technology all day long and would prefer to relax with
something more elegant and simple now and then.

       Jochem

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longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
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ZnU - 10 Feb 2010 06:27 GMT
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:090220100801230891%
> nospam@nospam.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Shouldn't the MORE expensive device at LEAST do what a $299 netbook will do
> at 1/2 to 1/3 the price?!

No. The more expensive device should offer more value to enough people
that the vendor can sell a sufficient number to get a good return on
investment.

The geeks define "value" entirely in terms of "What are the tech specs
and how many bullet points are on the feature list?" And defining value
according to such "objective" criteria causes them to believe that they
can categorically declare that, for instance, a netbook is better than
an iPad.

But the mass market, as demonstrated by, for instance, the success of
the iPod and the iPhone, does not define value in that way. It appears
to also take note of hard-to-quantify factors like user experience. So
the "Nobody will buy Apple device X because generic product Y
objectively offers more value" predictions tend to be very wrong.

> How stupid is that?

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
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Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 21:00 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C795E3590016E7CDF01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> photos ONTO the iPad, so they can be emailed over "The Network" for fun and
> profit.

OK, I stand corrected, but that in no way alters my point that this accessory
will NOT allow the iPad to make use of extended general purpose storage.

> If it had a writer, the hackers would soon be writing iPad software and
> libraries from the iPad to any card you have.....
>
> I don't believe it will write anything for this reason.

Again this just backs-up my point.
Per Rønne - 09 Feb 2010 06:11 GMT
> When in Europe, I can place a European SIM in one of those phones' slot
> and instantly get GSM service in whatever country I've bought a card for.
> In England, I use Telefonica, in Italy it's TIM, in Germany E-Plus, etc.
> Or, these days it is possible to buy a card from a company called "Roam
> Simple - Europe" that ostensibly will work most everywhere in EU.

This should be good when you phone, not when other people are calling
you. You will have different phone numbers for each SIM card.

But of course you can set up your US phone number to transfer the call
to the European number you will be using. Then you will pay for the call
from the US to Europe.
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Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 21:22 GMT
>> When in Europe, I can place a European SIM in one of those phones' slot
>> and instantly get GSM service in whatever country I've bought a card for.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This should be good when you phone, not when other people are calling
> you. You will have different phone numbers for each SIM card.

That's very true. But I usually tell the people who need to reach me what my
Euro phone number is for that trip as soon as I know it.

> But of course you can set up your US phone number to transfer the call
> to the European number you will be using. Then you will pay for the call
> from the US to Europe.

Anyway, the above was merely an example of how the SIM slot in the iPad is
for COMMUNICATIONS,  not for general purpose storage.
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 05:00 GMT
Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote in news:alangbaker-
54E3DA.11444908022010@news.shawcable.com:

> Ignoring the fact that you can use cards with the iPad...

ONLY to take photos off a camera into the photo display app.

There's no file manager, of course, just like the FruitFone.

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Larry

Sandman - 08 Feb 2010 21:31 GMT
> > and do you really want a pocket full of cards?
>
> Maybe it's just 1 card permanently inserted into the iPad.  Or maybe I
> carry around 4 rolling suitcases with 4,567 cards.
>
> IT'S MY CHOICE.

So you CHOOSE not to get the iPad. Why do you think we give a sh.t 
about your choices??

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Sandman[.net]

John Navas - 08 Feb 2010 03:20 GMT
>>>>> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
>>>> there's an optional add on for those who need it.

>>> That's in no way a good solution.  Sticking out of the bottom?  Only
>>> good for occasional use. How can you seriously defend this?

Amen.

>> copying images from cards *is* occasional use.

Normal use actually.

>> the ipad is *not* an accessory for photographers, like one of those
>> epson viewers.

It's being marketed that way, and if not, another strike against it.

>> the vast majority of ipad users are not going to be copying images off
>> of cards, since there's *so* much else it will do.

"It's not a limitation; it's a feature!"
Sounds like an excuse to me.

>I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
>card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.
>
>In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
>nearly an infinite amount of content with me.

Yep.

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Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 08 Feb 2010 04:16 GMT
> >> copying images from cards *is* occasional use.
>
> Normal use actually.

amazing. the ipad has not even shipped and already you know what normal
use is.

> >> the ipad is *not* an accessory for photographers, like one of those
> >> epson viewers.
>
> It's being marketed that way, and if not, another strike against it.

where is it being marketed as an accessory device for photographers?

it's not an ideal portable storage device because it doesn't have a
hard drive. it's flash memory would fill up rather quickly.

> >> the vast majority of ipad users are not going to be copying images off
> >> of cards, since there's *so* much else it will do.
>
> "It's not a limitation; it's a feature!"
> Sounds like an excuse to me.

it's a realistic assessment of what people are likely to do with it,
based on the software available for the iphone and ipod touch.

why focus on what it *can't* do, when there's so much it *can* do?

> >I don't want to "copy images from cards".  I want to play music from a
> >card. Or movies.  Or videos. Or view pictures.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Yep.

very few people want an infinite amount of storage (and those that do
only think they do). you even admit you only have *one* card with you.
Todd Allcock - 08 Feb 2010 07:30 GMT
> > >> copying images from cards *is* occasional use.
> >
> > Normal use actually.
>
> amazing. the ipad has not even shipped and already you know what normal
> use is.

Despite the assertion in the keynote that the iPad isn't designed to
replace a laptop, it _will_ be used as one, since few people are going to
lug a smartphone/iPhone, an iPad, and a notebook around.   People will
treat it like a netbook: a smaller, lighter device with a generous subset
of full-sized laptop features.

> > >> the ipad is *not* an accessory for photographers, like one of those
> > >> epson viewers.
> >
> > It's being marketed that way, and if not, another strike against it.
>
> where is it being marketed as an accessory device for photographers?

Jobs called it the best way to share your photos.  I think many people
would expect that "the best way to share" would include a feature found
on every $39 digital photo frame sold at drugstores; a way to stick a
camera chip in it!  

It won't be a deal-breaker, particularly considering the availability of
an external card eader, but it is an odd design decision.

> it's not an ideal portable storage device because it doesn't have a
> hard drive. it's flash memory would fill up rather quickly.

I doubt anyone is suggesting it's ideal for permanent storage, but the
big display lends itself to viewing and light editing, and its
connectivity options allow for uploading toa photo sharing site.

> > >> the vast majority of ipad users are not going to be copying images off
> > >> of cards, since there's *so* much else it will do.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it's a realistic assessment of what people are likely to do with it,
> based on the software available for the iphone and ipod touch.

That's sort of a circular argument isn't it, since the software available
for the iPhone is, in part, limited by the iPhone's design decisions?  If
the iPhone had had an SD slot, I suspect a lot of photo
import/editing/transfer/uploading software would be available.

> why focus on what it *can't* do, when there's so much it *can* do?

Um, because so far it's a big iPod Touch with iWork and a new ebook app
available?  Hopefully it'll be much more than that!
nospam - 08 Feb 2010 08:05 GMT
> > where is it being marketed as an accessory device for photographers?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It won't be a deal-breaker, particularly considering the availability of
> an external card eader, but it is an odd design decision.

i don't think it's odd at all. the ipad is more of a general purpose
device, not a photo accessory. it *can* copy photos but that's not its
main purpose in life.

up until just last year, macs didn't have sd slots either and not that
many people complained. it's not a big deal. it's not like a card
reader is a huge accessory either.

> > why focus on what it *can't* do, when there's so much it *can* do?
>
> Um, because so far it's a big iPod Touch with iWork and a new ebook app
> available?  Hopefully it'll be much more than that!

once app developers start releasing ipad savvy apps it will a *lot*
more than just a big ipod touch.

the flashlight apps will be that much brighter and just think of the
potential of a fart app on a big screen. :)

seriously though, a lot of apps will benefit from a larger screen. ever
try doing a crossword puzzle or play scrabble on the iphone? ugh. way
too much zooming and scrolling. a big screen will help a lot.
Larry - 08 Feb 2010 08:52 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:080220100005574169%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

> up until just last year, macs didn't have sd slots either and not that
> many people complained.

See?  Groomed to accept.....It becomes more clear on every post.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Larry - 08 Feb 2010 08:50 GMT
Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:AaPbn.81660$BV.50665
@newsfe07.iad:

> Jobs called it the best way to share your photos.  I think many people
> would expect that "the best way to share" would include a feature found
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It won't be a deal-breaker, particularly considering the availability of
> an external card eader, but it is an odd design decision.

Todd I don't think it's odd at all.  They are being GROOMED to accept cloud
computing....load the pictures up to the cloud and we'll take care of them
for you.  You can look at them any time, even print them out!

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Fa-groon - 08 Feb 2010 17:34 GMT
> Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote in news:AaPbn.81660$BV.50665
> @newsfe07.iad:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> computing....load the pictures up to the cloud and we'll take care of them
> for you.  You can look at them any time, even print them out!

"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Windows is to computing what bureaucrats are to government.
John Navas - 09 Feb 2010 19:22 GMT
>> > >> the vast majority of ipad users are not going to be copying images off
>> > >> of cards, since there's *so* much else it will do.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>the iPhone had had an SD slot, I suspect a lot of photo
>import/editing/transfer/uploading software would be available.

<http://mobile.photoshop.com/iphone/>

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Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Steve de Mena - 08 Feb 2010 11:08 GMT
>>>> copying images from cards *is* occasional use.
>> Normal use actually.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> where is it being marketed as an accessory device for photographers?

Listen to any photography podcast or follow the big active Twitter
photographers. IPad IPad iPad....

> it's not an ideal portable storage device because it doesn't have a
> hard drive. it's flash memory would fill up rather quickly.

That can't be.  You've told us how it has more capacity than the
average user could ever use.

>>>> the vast majority of ipad users are not going to be copying images off
>>>> of cards, since there's *so* much else it will do.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> very few people want an infinite amount of storage (and those that do
> only think they do). you even admit you only have *one* card with you.

You are so dense. I make a statement that it gives one an almost
infinite amount of storage.   Is that saying everyone wants an
infinite amount of storage (which doesn't exist)?  No.  It is saying
it gives them an CHOICE of growing capacity without spending a fortune
on a 64GB model or having a cheaper one fill up.   At $10 or less for
8GB cards they could easily have a pool of cards larger than internal
iPod memory and swap them around.

Please learn to read English.

Steve
Per Rønne - 08 Feb 2010 04:04 GMT
> >>>> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
> >>> there's an optional add on for those who need it.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> In other words, actually USE that like internal storage so I can have
> nearly an infinite amount of content with me.

You can get RAM-sticks with more capacity than what you get in an iPad.
And cheaper.

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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Jochem Huhmann - 07 Feb 2010 21:27 GMT
>>So we will end up with a 16 GB WiFi 3G iPad which is updated to 256 GB.
>
> Only if you are dumb enough to buy a device you have to keep replacing
> regularly just to upgrade the memory (or replace the battery).  
>
> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.

The prices for used iDevices seem to make that a problem that is rather
easy to handle. Just sell it and buy a larger one if you run out of
space.

And you'd be silly to not see the problems with SD-card slots. They are
slow and it's very hard to not break things if you install software on
them or data that some app needs. In practical terms Apple is totally
right to limit support for that as far as possible. The geek in you may
cry out, but who cares?

       Jochem

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"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

John Navas - 08 Feb 2010 03:27 GMT
>>>So we will end up with a 16 GB WiFi 3G iPad which is updated to 256 GB.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>easy to handle. Just sell it and buy a larger one if you run out of
>space.

A truly stupid and unnecessary hassle.

>And you'd be silly to not see the problems with SD-card slots. They are
>slow and it's very hard to not break things if you install software on
>them or data that some app needs.

Totally false.

>In practical terms Apple is totally
>right to limit support for that as far as possible. The geek in you may
>cry out, but who cares?

"It's not a limitation; it's a feature!"

The difference between us is that I haven't drunk the Kool-aid.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Michelle Steiner - 08 Feb 2010 03:47 GMT
> If the iPhone is really so impressive,
> why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

If the iPhone is really so crapy, why do iCritics keep making up lies about
it?

Well, John, why do you keep making up lies about the iPhone and its fans?

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Fa-groon - 08 Feb 2010 17:38 GMT
>> If the iPhone is really so impressive,
>> why do iFans keep making excuses for it?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Well, John, why do you keep making up lies about the iPhone and its fans?

iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
Sure, I wished it had user expandable storage, a better camera, and a user
replaceable battery, but these are just nit-picking.
Your Name - 08 Feb 2010 19:59 GMT
> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
<snip>

If AT&T (as well as most other mobile phone companies) were to price their
"service" at its correct value, then they'd have to pay you $1000 a month.
:-(
Richard B. Gilbert - 08 Feb 2010 20:19 GMT
>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
>> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "service" at its correct value, then they'd have to pay you $1000 a month.
> :-(

If the "service" has negative value, why are people paying for it?

Millions of people own, carry, and use cell phones.  These people, or
their employers, pay for the required "service" so it must have some
value to them!  I seldom use mine but I pay for it because it might just
become a matter of life and death.  Sometimes it's just convenient!
Fa-groon - 08 Feb 2010 23:54 GMT
>>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
>>> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> If the "service" has negative value, why are people paying for it?

The poster is just using hyperbole, I suspect. The service has value, just
not as much as most carriers charge for it, and once you get it, you find out
that because of coverage issues, and speed issues due to traffic, etc., that
it's really not worth even a fraction of what they promise for what they
charge.

> Millions of people own, carry, and use cell phones.  These people, or
> their employers, pay for the required "service" so it must have some
> value to them!  I seldom use mine but I pay for it because it might just
> become a matter of life and death.  Sometimes it's just convenient!

Reasonable attitude. many feel that way.
Your Name - 09 Feb 2010 00:19 GMT
> >>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
> >>> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> it's really not worth even a fraction of what they promise for what they
> charge.

Yep. The so-called "service" of many of this "big business" companies is
at best abysmal. They're far too busy stuffing their own wallets to be
bothered actually providing good service to their customers.

> > Millions of people own, carry, and use cell phones.  These people, or
> > their employers, pay for the required "service" so it must have some
> > value to them!  I seldom use mine but I pay for it because it might just
> > become a matter of life and death.  Sometimes it's just convenient!
>
> Reasonable attitude. many feel that way.

Those millions of people pay hopeless companies like AT&T or Vodafone
because there's little or no other choice, other than doing without the
service at all (which often *IS* the better choice).
Richard B. Gilbert - 09 Feb 2010 00:37 GMT
>>>>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
>>>>> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> because there's little or no other choice, other than doing without the
> service at all (which often *IS* the better choice).

AT&T??  Vodafone???

What about Verizon Wireless?  I've been a VZW customer for about twelve
years now.  The first few years they called it "Bell Atlantic Mobile"
before they changed the name to Verizon Wireless.

I've never, to my knowledge, been in a place where my phone didn't work.
I suppose there are places where no Verizon or roaming coverage is
available but I don't think such places are anywhere that I'm ever going
to visit.

YMMV!
Dennis Ferguson - 09 Feb 2010 02:46 GMT
>> Those millions of people pay hopeless companies like AT&T or Vodafone
>> because there's little or no other choice, other than doing without the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> years now.  The first few years they called it "Bell Atlantic Mobile"
> before they changed the name to Verizon Wireless.

45% of Verizon Wireless is owned by Vodafone.  The other 55% belongs
to Verizon Communications, the landline company.

> I've never, to my knowledge, been in a place where my phone didn't work.
> I suppose there are places where no Verizon or roaming coverage is
> available but I don't think such places are anywhere that I'm ever going
> to visit.

My Verizon phone (or any other company's phone, for that matter) doesn't
work in the hills that are a 20 minute drive away from my house in
Palo Alto, CA, the oh-so-high-tech home of, e.g., the HP and Apple garages
(or was the latter in Los Altos?).  In fact, my Verizon phone just barely
works in my house, which is within walking distance of downtown Palo Alto
(not that any other company's phone, with the possible exception of
T-Mobile, works better).

You don't get out enough.

Dennis Ferguson
Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 03:30 GMT
>>> Those millions of people pay hopeless companies like AT&T or Vodafone
>>> because there's little or no other choice, other than doing without the
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Dennis Ferguson

I live in Marin and find that my AT&T service goes away as soon as you leave
the U.S. 101 "corrider". If I take Lucas Valley Road, (for instance) toward
Tomales, I find that 10 miles off of 101, there is no AT&T signal! I have
friends who live in the Palo Alto region and they tell me that  NOBODY'S
service works past Skyline blvd., until you get to the coast highway near
Half-Moon Bay!  So, what you say jibes with my friends' experiences as well.
Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 03:26 GMT
>>>>>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
>>>>>> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> YMMV!

And so it does.
Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 03:25 GMT
>>>>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
>>>>> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> at best abysmal. They're far too busy stuffing their own wallets to be
> bothered actually providing good service to their customers.

That's what I thought you meant.

>>> Millions of people own, carry, and use cell phones.  These people, or
>>> their employers, pay for the required "service" so it must have some
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> because there's little or no other choice, other than doing without the
> service at all (which often *IS* the better choice).

These issues have kept me from buying an iPhone, or indeed ANY smartphone. I
do pay-as-you-go and am very happy with the level of service and the price.
Let others get roped into long-term contracts at exorbitant prices, but I'll
pass.
Your Name - 09 Feb 2010 05:42 GMT
> >>>>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing really
> >>>>> wrong with it as far as I'm concerned, is AT&T's pricing for the service.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Let others get roped into long-term contracts at exorbitant prices, but I'll
> pass.

Here in New Zealand there's really only two choices - Vodafone is the
official iPhone network, but considering the total mess they've made since
buying out my Internet Provider company I wouldn't use them for anything.
The other unofficial choice is Telecom NZ who are equally hopeless and
recently their new 3G network failed again (about the third time in one year
they've had it going). The only other company is 2Degrees which hasn't yet
gotten around to announcing their data plans / pricing.
Richard B. Gilbert - 09 Feb 2010 15:59 GMT
>>>>>>> iPhone is not perfect, but it's a damn good phone. The only thing
> really
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> they've had it going). The only other company is 2Degrees which hasn't yet
> gotten around to announcing their data plans / pricing.

Is "Telecom NZ", by any chance, owned and operated by the NZ government?

Assuming that the answer is "yes":
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
Your Name - 09 Feb 2010 20:00 GMT
> > Here in New Zealand there's really only two choices - Vodafone is the
> > official iPhone network, but considering the total mess they've made since
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Assuming that the answer is "yes":
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

The answer is No.

Originally it was, but then some dimwit in Government decided to sell off
all the essential services to greedy "big business" and now we're stuck with
hopeless "services" that don't work and are over-priced, and a company more
interested in "expanding" into Singapore, Australia, and who-knows-where
rather than actually providing good service to New Zealand. :-(

Essential services should NEVER EVER EVER be in private hands.

Vodafone ar equally as hopeless. They only bought out the Internet provider
I've been using for years because they wanted to get their sticky mitts on
landline phones for broadband connections. They have absolutely no interest
or knowledge about actually running an Internet service. As a result the
"service" is abysmally bad, especially for dial-up users like me.
Fa-groon - 09 Feb 2010 21:28 GMT
>>> Here in New Zealand there's really only two choices - Vodafone is the
>>> official iPhone network, but considering the total mess they've made
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> or knowledge about actually running an Internet service. As a result the
> "service" is abysmally bad, especially for dial-up users like me.

New Zealand is a marvelous, wonderful place to live. I suspect it would be a
great place to raise kids too. But there is a downside to living in a small
country like that . The infrastructure is also small.
Your Name - 11 Feb 2010 00:11 GMT
> >>> Here in New Zealand there's really only two choices - Vodafone is the
> >>> official iPhone network, but considering the total mess they've made
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> great place to raise kids too. But there is a downside to living in a small
> country like that . The infrastructure is also small.

As the saying goes: The grass is always greener on the other side.

The morons in Government are planning to raise the GST sales tax later
this year, and the reason is to give the greedy scum on obscene salaries a
lower tax rate (which of course includes all the politicians!). Yet again
a case of "rob the poor to give to the rich".  :-(
Richard B. Gilbert - 11 Feb 2010 01:31 GMT
>>>>> Here in New Zealand there's really only two choices - Vodafone is the
>>>>> official iPhone network, but considering the total mess they've made
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> lower tax rate (which of course includes all the politicians!). Yet again
> a case of "rob the poor to give to the rich".  :-(

If you keep voting for them. . . .

Politicians should be limited to two terms; one in office and one in prison!
Your Name - 11 Feb 2010 03:12 GMT
> >>>>> Here in New Zealand there's really only two choices - Vodafone is the
> >>>>> official iPhone network, but considering the total mess they've made
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Politicians should be limited to two terms; one in office and one in prison!

This is their first term in Government - they were voted in at the last
election. I don't bother voting because they're ALL worthless, greedy,
stupid fools.   :-(
Richard B. Gilbert - 11 Feb 2010 03:56 GMT
>>> In article <0001HW.C7971393000EC1A5F01846D8@news.giganews.com>,
> fa-groon wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> election. I don't bother voting because they're ALL worthless, greedy,
> stupid fools.   :-(

And so you have defeated yourself without ever playing the game!
Jochem Huhmann - 08 Feb 2010 11:48 GMT
>>> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> A truly stupid and unnecessary hassle.

Well, at least you get the newest generation then and someone else is
happy about buying yours. I can't see anything wrong with that.

>>In practical terms Apple is totally
>>right to limit support for that as far as possible. The geek in you may
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The difference between us is that I haven't drunk the Kool-aid.

I don't think so. The difference is that you seem to think that all
people using such a device should learn everything about computers and
how to nurse them along while I know very well that people like to be
able to just use them without wasting any time with them.

       Jochem

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"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

John Navas - 09 Feb 2010 19:27 GMT
>> The difference between us is that I haven't drunk the Kool-aid.
>
>I don't think so. The difference is that you seem to think that all
>people using such a device should learn everything about computers and
>how to nurse them along while I know very well that people like to be
>able to just use them without wasting any time with them.

Nothing of the sort.

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Jochem Huhmann - 09 Feb 2010 19:43 GMT
>>> The difference between us is that I haven't drunk the Kool-aid.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Nothing of the sort.

OK. What else then? Please explain in clear words, I'm blonde and
English is not my native language. I think I'm getting the "I haven't
drunk the Kool-aid" reference but this isn't enough, obviously.

       Jochem

Signature

"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

John Navas - 09 Feb 2010 23:15 GMT
>>>> The difference between us is that I haven't drunk the Kool-aid.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>OK. What else then? Please explain in clear words, ...

Been there; done that.
"Google is your friend."

Signature

Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

wetpixel - 12 May 2010 02:27 GMT
> >>>So we will end up with a 16 GB WiFi 3G iPad which is updated to 256 GB.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> A truly stupid and unnecessary hassle.
Indeed, and nothing like what Apple intended.
If you run out of space in a garage you reconsider what has to be in
that garage. You remove things not needed, add things that were.
That's why synching is designed to be done often; it performs backup
functions and also encourages efficient consideration of storage.

> >And you'd be silly to not see the problems with SD-card slots. They are
> >slow and it's very hard to not break things if you install software on
> >them or data that some app needs.
>
> Totally false.
No, it wasn't, but it was presumptive. It assumed apps could be
installed to the SD card or that apps could store files to that card,
both of which are determined by the OS.

> >In practical terms Apple is totally
> >right to limit support for that as far as possible. The geek in you may
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The difference between us is that I haven't drunk the Kool-aid.
No, that you have decided your position before reading the reasoning of
others that might inform you.
It's a fatal flaw; it will prevent you from much in your life.
Deltamethrin - 12 May 2010 04:12 GMT
>> >>>So we will end up with a 16 GB WiFi 3G iPad which is updated to 256
>> >>>GB.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> others that might inform you.
> It's a fatal flaw; it will prevent you from much in your life.

You sound remarkably like Timothy Leary.
wetpixel - 13 May 2010 09:54 GMT
> > It's a fatal flaw; it will prevent you from much in your life.
>
> You sound remarkably like Timothy Leary.

Yeah, he must've got it from me.

(actually, I echoed a comment where he started his criticism, referring
to not having a SD slot as a fatal flaw.)
Mark Crispin - 12 May 2010 19:58 GMT
> If you run out of space in a garage you reconsider what has to be in
> that garage. You remove things not needed, add things that were.

Nonsense.  Storage is cheap.  There is no reason why I should not have
full copies of my media libraries on any device I happen to be using at
the time.  Why should I have to choose what photos, songs, videos, books,
etc. I want to have available at any one time?

Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of storage.
Even the aging Nokia N800 allows as much as 128GB of storage.  We already
have laptops with TB capacity.  TB capacity mobile devices are coming.

And no, I don't want to sync to some "cloud" owned by Apple or Microsoft
or Google or Amazon.  I'll have my own servers (note the plural), thank
you.

Syncing is important; but not selective syncing.  The purpose of syncing
is for each device (including servers!) to determine what is missing and
remedy that situation.  The destruction of any one device or server, or
even multiple devices and server, should not result in the loss of any of
my data as long as at least one survivor remains.

Storage is cheap enough to afford this easily.  The problem is vendors
like Apple that produce storage-limited devices to sell to nitwit fanboys
who think that 16GB of storage is worth $100.

If a vendor does not wish to sell products that suit my needs, I will buy
from another vendor that will.  I have no loyalty to any vendor; and I
refuse to buy crap just because it is shiny and made by Apple.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Lloyd Parsons - 12 May 2010 20:12 GMT
> > If you run out of space in a garage you reconsider what has to be in
> > that garage. You remove things not needed, add things that were.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> -- Mark --

Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
else to get around to producing something similar that better meets your
needs.

Signature

Lloyd

Mark Crispin - 13 May 2010 03:51 GMT
> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
> else to get around to producing something similar that better meets your
> needs.

That is the first mature comment that I have seen from an Apple fan.

You are correct; I have no interest in an iPad (or iPhone) even though I
could easily buy one.  I am quite annoyed by the fanboys who seem to think
that there are only two types of people in the world: iToy owners and
people who want to be iToy owners.

No device is suitable for everybody, yet fanboys seem to be unable to
grasp that concept.

There are forthcoming devices which will serve my needs quite well.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Lloyd Parsons - 13 May 2010 04:14 GMT
> > Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
> > shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> -- Mark --

I don't know why you are surprised at my comment, it and others similar
to it have been made here a number of times concerning the iPad.

As to what forthcoming devices will meet your needs, that remains to be
seen.  Also what remains to be seen is if they are good competitors to
this new market.

Android has the only real good chance that I see, but that will take
doing some control of what goes on the device which is something the
Android/Linux supporters don't want to see happen.

It will be interesting to watch it all jell.

Signature

Lloyd

BreadWithSpam@fractious.net - 13 May 2010 04:31 GMT
> > Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
> > shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
> > else to get around to producing something similar that better meets your
> > needs.
> That is the first mature comment that I have seen from an Apple fan.

You haven't been reading much, then.  Several of us who have
been posting here regularly have been telling certain folks
over and over again that they perhaps ought to just get something
else.

The main problem I've seen is that most of them can't seem
to come up with anything else which actually exists that
they want, either.  So they keep complaining about iPads
and iPhones.

FWIW, I'm hoping Apple will fix a variety of things on
these devices in the next iterations of both hardware
and software.  It doesn't appear that anyone thinks any
of these devices are perfect.  There are certain folks
who defend some of the less popular (or more complex) business
choices Apple makes (ie. no Flash).

I haven't, however, seen anyone publicly defending some
of the most bizarre choices Apple makes (ie. their apparently
random decision-making process regarding what apps to allow
in the store and which ones to prohibit).

> owners and people who want to be iToy owners.

Does it somehow make you feel better to call it an "iToy"?

> There are forthcoming devices which will serve my needs quite well.

I certainly hope so.  I just recently posted to the iPad newsgroup
about several forthcoming devices which look quite interesting.

Of course, this is cross-posted to an *.advocacy group,
a sure sign that nothing useful is likely to come from the
conversation.  

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Fa-groon - 13 May 2010 06:48 GMT
>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> over and over again that they perhaps ought to just get something
> else.

And having said that, we wonder why those of you who find the iPad not to
your liking remain here beating that same dead horse, day after day. We don't
mean to be unkind, but first of all, please realize that this is a Mac
advocacy group, not an iPad advocacy group. If you wish to talk endlessly
about touch-screen computing devices, might I suggest that you either find
one or start one and take this discussion to that NG?

> The main problem I've seen is that most of them can't seem
> to come up with anything else which actually exists that
> they want, either.  So they keep complaining about iPads
> and iPhones.

And in the wrong NG too.

> FWIW, I'm hoping Apple will fix a variety of things on
> these devices in the next iterations of both hardware
> and software.  It doesn't appear that anyone thinks any
> of these devices are perfect.  There are certain folks
> who defend some of the less popular (or more complex) business
> choices Apple makes (ie. no Flash).

Frankly, there are many Mac advocates here (including me) who simply don't  
dive a damn about iPads or any similar devices and would like to see this
group get back on course and discuss Macs.
Richard B. Gilbert - 13 May 2010 14:27 GMT
>>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> one or start one and take this discussion to that NG?
>  

I can't answer that for certain but it MIGHT have something to do with
this thread being posted to alt.cellular.verizon.  I'm not certain WHY
it's posted to a newsgroup where it's off topic!

I have removed alt.cellular.verizon from the address list.  I suspect it
will have no effect but I tried!
Deltamethrin - 13 May 2010 15:15 GMT
>>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> dive a damn about iPads or any similar devices and would like to see this
> group get back on course and discuss Macs.

Then you should go to a pc group.
Fa-groon - 13 May 2010 17:55 GMT
>>>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Then you should go to a pc group.

Why? This is a Mac advocacy group and I'm a Mac advocate. Mac advocacy has
nothing directly to do with iPods, iPhones or iPads. You should go to a PC
group to push Microsoft and Windows, because that subject sure doesn't belong
here!
Justin - 13 May 2010 18:34 GMT
Fa-groon wrote on [Thu, 13 May 2010 09:55:40 -0700]:

>>>>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>>>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> group to push Microsoft and Windows, because that subject sure doesn't belong
> here!

THIS is a verizon wireless newsgroup.
Deltamethrin - 13 May 2010 20:34 GMT
>>>>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>>>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> belong
> here!

I do not push microsoft and windows as you push the cheesy mac and apple.
Justin - 13 May 2010 15:51 GMT
Fa-groon wrote on [Wed, 12 May 2010 22:48:57 -0700]:

>>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> about touch-screen computing devices, might I suggest that you either find
> one or start one and take this discussion to that NG?

Actually, this is a verizon wireless newsgroup
Michelle Steiner - 13 May 2010 16:18 GMT
> Actually, this is a verizon wireless newsgroup

Actually, this thread is being crosspost to four groups, none of which are
the iPad group.

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Richard B. Gilbert - 13 May 2010 17:09 GMT
> Fa-groon wrote on [Wed, 12 May 2010 22:48:57 -0700]:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Actually, this is a verizon wireless newsgroup

You mean THAT YOU are reading this garbage on alt.cellular.verizon.  It
is posted to alt.cellular.attws, alt.cellular.verizon,
comp.sys.mac.advocacy, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Please folks, the iPhone is of little or no interest to those reading
alt.cellular.verizon.  Just drop it from the address list if it's about
the iPhone or the iPad.

I HOPE that those who ARE interested are sufficiently intelligent to be
able to find the proper newsgroup.  alt.cellular.verizon is NOT IT!!!!
wetpixel - 13 May 2010 10:09 GMT
> > owners and people who want to be iToy owners.
>
> Does it somehow make you feel better to call it an "iToy"?

Clearly, and an example of the maturity he values.
His comments are all about making Apple and Apple-buyers look stupid,
when his own requirements (huge storage and no stores?) are neither
intelligent nor sensible.
Michelle Steiner - 13 May 2010 05:01 GMT
> > Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
> > shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for
> > someone else to get around to producing something similar that better
> > meets your needs.
>
> That is the first mature comment that I have seen from an Apple fan.

It's the first one you admit to having seen.

> You are correct; I have no interest in an iPad (or iPhone) even though I
> could easily buy one.  I am quite annoyed by the fanboys who seem to
> think that there are only two types of people in the world: iToy owners
> and people who want to be iToy owners.

In that case, you are annoyed by the product of your own imagination.

> No device is suitable for everybody, yet fanboys seem to be unable to
> grasp that concept.

That set of fanboy is the null set.

> There are forthcoming devices which will serve my needs quite well.

Good for you.

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Fa-groon - 13 May 2010 06:39 GMT
>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> No device is suitable for everybody, yet fanboys seem to be unable to
> grasp that concept.

We grasp the concept just fine, thank you. The concept that we don't grasp
too well is the one where you and your ilk come to this Mac advocacy
newsgroup and troll, and then act surprised and hurt and angry when you find
out that 1) we don't care that you don't like Apple or it's products, and 2)
have little to no tolerance for your trolling. And that, having vented your
spleens on that subject, you don't just move on, go away, vamoose.

> There are forthcoming devices which will serve my needs quite well.

Use them in peace and good health, talk about them in venues where such
discussions are welcome. But not here.
Mark Crispin - 13 May 2010 21:06 GMT
> We grasp the concept just fine, thank you. The concept that we don't grasp
> too well is the one where you and your ilk come to this Mac advocacy
> newsgroup and troll

Being an Apple fanboy, you apparently don't understand that one of your
fellow fanboys cross-posted to the Verizon newsgroup.

If you don't like hearing that your precious Apple devices suck in your
newsgroup, then stop cross-posting Apple crap in our newsgroup.

Not that being a Mac advocate is a sensible thing to be.  Apple has
already made it quite clear that Mac is on its way out.  If Mac had a
future, iPad would run Mac OS X instead of the iPhone OS.

Nonetheless, as soon as you fanboys stop posting in the Verizon
newsgroups, I will be happy to leave you to babble about Steve Jobs'
discarded toy in peace.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
nospam - 13 May 2010 21:13 GMT
> Not that being a Mac advocate is a sensible thing to be.  Apple has
> already made it quite clear that Mac is on its way out.  If Mac had a
> future, iPad would run Mac OS X instead of the iPhone OS.

nonsense. os x is not designed for touch and putting it on a tablet
would be stupid. windows based tablets have been a disaster.

numerous other tablets coming out are running android, not windows.
there's a reason for that, and it has nothing to do with apple.

> Nonetheless, as soon as you fanboys stop posting in the Verizon
> newsgroups, I will be happy to leave you to babble about Steve Jobs'
> discarded toy in peace.

not all apple customers are rabid fanbois, and what happens when
there's a verizon iphone?
Todd Allcock - 14 May 2010 05:54 GMT
> > Nonetheless, as soon as you fanboys stop posting in the Verizon
> > newsgroups, I will be happy to leave you to babble about Steve Jobs'
> > discarded toy in peace.
>
> not all apple customers are rabid fanbois, and what happens when
> there's a verizon iphone?

I don't know- I'll probably be too busy ducking all the flying pigs to
notice...  ;)
Michelle Steiner - 14 May 2010 01:47 GMT
> Not that being a Mac advocate is a sensible thing to be.  Apple has
> already made it quite clear that Mac is on its way out.  If Mac had a
> future, iPad would run Mac OS X instead of the iPhone OS.

Wrong and wrong.

> Nonetheless, as soon as you fanboys stop posting in the Verizon
> newsgroups, I will be happy to leave you to babble about Steve Jobs'
> discarded toy in peace.

As soon as you stop posting your rabid anti-Apple bullshit to the iphone
newsgroup, I'll stop rebutting it.

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Justin - 14 May 2010 02:22 GMT
Michelle Steiner wrote on [Thu, 13 May 2010 17:47:54 -0700]:

>> Not that being a Mac advocate is a sensible thing to be.  Apple has
>> already made it quite clear that Mac is on its way out.  If Mac had a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> As soon as you stop posting your rabid anti-Apple bullshit to the iphone
> newsgroup, I'll stop rebutting it.

That was just a statement of your opinion, no rebuttal or facts were included.
J.Law - 14 May 2010 22:08 GMT
>> Not that being a Mac advocate is a sensible thing to be.  Apple has
>> already made it quite clear that Mac is on its way out.  If Mac had a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> As soon as you stop posting your rabid anti-Apple bullshit to the iphone
> newsgroup, I'll stop rebutting it.

suck cock and choke on it.
Chance Furlong - 14 May 2010 22:42 GMT
>> As soon as you stop posting your rabid anti Apple bullshit to the iPhone
>> newsgroup, I'll stop rebutting it.
>
> Suck cock and choke on it.

Aww, zara, what happened last night? Did your inflatable Ballmer love
doll spring a leak?
J.Law - 15 May 2010 01:26 GMT
>>> As soon as you stop posting your rabid anti Apple bullshit to the iPhone
>>> newsgroup, I'll stop rebutting it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Aww, zara, what happened last night? Did your inflatable Ballmer love doll
> spring a leak?

suck your mothers cock instead of your own and choke on it.
Oxford - 15 May 2010 01:25 GMT
> Being an Apple fanboy, you apparently don't understand that one of your
> fellow fanboys cross-posted to the Verizon newsgroup.

except you are forgetting the verizon newsgroup doesn't have have access
to modern technical news, so it's important to inform them so they are
ready once Apple allows them access to the future.

mark, i know you are increasingly desperate, but you need to step back
and see how apple is taking over every aspect of tech for the betterment
of everyone... so relax...
ZnU - 15 May 2010 09:14 GMT
In article
<apony-0B0D5F.18250114052010@n003-000-000-000.static.ge.com>,

> > Being an Apple fanboy, you apparently don't understand that one of your
> > fellow fanboys cross-posted to the Verizon newsgroup.
>
> except you are forgetting the verizon newsgroup doesn't have have access
> to modern technical news, so it's important to inform them so they are
> ready once Apple allows them access to the future.

Really? Verizon newsgroup readers can't browse the web? You're insane.

> mark, i know you are increasingly desperate, but you need to step back
> and see how apple is taking over every aspect of tech for the betterment
> of everyone... so relax...

Signature

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must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Oxford - 16 May 2010 03:36 GMT
> > except you are forgetting the verizon newsgroup doesn't have have access
> > to modern technical news, so it's important to inform them so they are
> > ready once Apple allows them access to the future.
>
> Really? Verizon newsgroup readers can't browse the web? You're insane.

no, i wasn't referring usenet reading ability, my comment was aimed at
verizon phones are always technically several years behind apple.
Fa-groon - 13 May 2010 06:56 GMT
>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> You are correct; I have no interest in an iPad (or iPhone) even though I
> could easily buy one.

Why tell us? I don't care about an iPad either. I'm a Mac advocate and this
is a Mac advocacy NG. Technically speaking, iPads are off-topic, and I'm sure
that there are any number of us here who would just as soon drop the topic
altogether and get back to discussing Macs. the iPad is not a Mac,, and
discussing them here is like going on a Corvette NG and trying to discuss
Chevy trucks. Sure, they're both made by the same company, but one has little
to do with the other.  

> I am quite annoyed by the fanboys who seem to think
> that there are only two types of people in the world: iToy owners and
> people who want to be iToy owners.

If you left this NG, you wouldn't be exposed to those "fanboys" or their
beliefs. You trolls always complain about the Apple fans who post here, yet
you seem to forget that you have the option of not posting here. Keep that in
mind, will you?
Richard B. Gilbert - 13 May 2010 14:31 GMT
>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that there are any number of us here who would just as soon drop the topic
> altogether and get back to discussing Macs. the iPad is not a Mac,, and

Indeed!  I suppose there is no point in wondering WHY people insist on
posting this thread to newsgroups where it's off topics.
Justin - 13 May 2010 15:52 GMT
Fa-groon wrote on [Wed, 12 May 2010 22:56:25 -0700]:

>>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Why tell us? I don't care about an iPad either. I'm a Mac advocate and this
> is a Mac advocacy NG. Technically speaking, iPads are off-topic, and I'm sure

Perhaps you should check your headers more closely

Newsgroups: alt.cellular.attws,alt.cellular.verizon,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
wetpixel - 13 May 2010 10:07 GMT
> > Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
> > shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
> > else to get around to producing something similar that better meets your
> > needs.
>
> That is the first mature comment that I have seen from an Apple fan.
Then you haven't visited the groups at all.

> You are correct; I have no interest in an iPad (or iPhone) even though I
> could easily buy one.  I am quite annoyed by the fanboys who seem to think
> that there are only two types of people in the world: iToy owners and
> people who want to be iToy owners.
Which is none of the world, excepting maybe Oxford.

> No device is suitable for everybody, yet fanboys seem to be unable to
> grasp that concept.
Nope, we merely have to defend against morons who think that 'not
suitable' is the same as 'deserving of ridicule and overstatement,
harsh words, stupid comparisons, and vastly hyperbolic demands.'

> There are forthcoming devices which will serve my needs quite well.
Uh-huh. How do you know, since almost nothing is currently giving specs?
John B. Coarsey, PE - 13 May 2010 19:24 GMT
>> Thanks for your comments.  From reading them, it is apparent you
>> shouldn't get an iPad.  No problem, you'll just have to wait for someone
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Well said Mark. One size definately does *not* fit all.
Oxford - 15 May 2010 01:09 GMT
> No device is suitable for everybody, yet fanboys seem to be unable to
> grasp that concept.

but the iPad is perfect for 90% of the people on earth... that's what
you are overlooking.
nospam - 15 May 2010 01:13 GMT
In article
<apony-DC2811.18095214052010@n003-000-000-000.static.ge.com>, Oxford
<apony@pasture.com> wrote:

> but the iPad is perfect for 90% of the people on earth... that's what
> you are overlooking.

no it isn't. not even remotely close.
Justin - 15 May 2010 22:42 GMT
Oxford wrote on [Fri, 14 May 2010 18:09:52 -0600]:

>> No device is suitable for everybody, yet fanboys seem to be unable to
>> grasp that concept.
>
> but the iPad is perfect for 90% of the people on earth... that's what
> you are overlooking.

It's not even perfect for 90% of the fanbois
Michelle Steiner - 12 May 2010 20:24 GMT
> If a vendor does not wish to sell products that suit my needs, I will
> buy from another vendor that will.  I have no loyalty to any vendor; and
> I refuse to buy crap just because it is shiny and made by Apple.

Of course, your definition of "crap" is
1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
else's needs wants.

and/or

2.  Anything made by Apple.

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Mark Crispin - 13 May 2010 04:01 GMT
> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
> else's needs wants.

Correction:

1. Anything that hyped by rabid fanboys as being the ultimate gizmo for
all possible needs and wants, yet fails utterly to meet my needs or wants;
or the needs and wants of other users.

> and/or
>
> 2.  Anything made by Apple.

Correction:

2. Anything overpriced, overhyped, underpowered.

and/or

3. Anything locked up by control freaks that think that they have the
right to tell you what you can do with the gizmo after you bought it.

Now, it may be that you admit that the above all describe "anything made
by Apple".  In that case, why defend Apple?

-- Mark --

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Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
nospam - 13 May 2010 04:14 GMT
> > Of course, your definition of "crap" is
> > 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> all possible needs and wants, yet fails utterly to meet my needs or wants;
> or the needs and wants of other users.

every product has rabid fanbois and anti-fanbois.

> > and/or
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> 2. Anything overpriced, overhyped, underpowered.

such a device will not sell, yet apple's sales are growing faster than
the market. therefore apple's products are not any of those.

> 3. Anything locked up by control freaks that think that they have the
> right to tell you what you can do with the gizmo after you bought it.

apple does no such thing but look at windows phone 7, which also has a
single apps store with app approval and has explicitly said no porn or
otherwise inappropriate software.

> Now, it may be that you admit that the above all describe "anything made
> by Apple".  In that case, why defend Apple?

it describes much more than just apple.
BreadWithSpam@fractious.net - 13 May 2010 04:37 GMT
> 1. Anything that hyped by rabid fanboys as being the ultimate gizmo
> for all possible needs and wants, yet fails utterly to meet my needs
> or wants; or the needs and wants of other users.

I've never seen anything so hyped.  Come to think of it, I haven't
seen any "rabid fanboys" in the iPhone and iPad newsgroups.  All
of the folks I've seen in those groups who have posted in any way
positive things about these devices have also posted criticisms
of them, too.

> 3. Anything locked up by control freaks that think that they have the
> right to tell you what you can do with the gizmo after you bought it.

That explains it.  I'm going to start calling my espresso machine
a piece of "crap" from now on because it doesn't make toast.  I
mean, sure, I could break it open and use the parts to built my
own toaster, but that may void my warranty.  Nevertheless, all
the things necessary to make toast are there.  How dare they!

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Michelle Steiner - 13 May 2010 05:03 GMT
> > 1. Anything that hyped by rabid fanboys as being the ultimate gizmo
> > for all possible needs and wants, yet fails utterly to meet my needs
> > or wants; or the needs and wants of other users.
>
> I've never seen anything so hyped.  Come to think of it, I haven't seen
> any "rabid fanboys" in the iPhone and iPad newsgroups.

Rabid anti-Apple fanatics like him refuse to believe that.

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Justin - 13 May 2010 15:53 GMT
BreadWithSpam@fractious.net wrote on [12 May 2010 23:37:36 -0400]:

>> 1. Anything that hyped by rabid fanboys as being the ultimate gizmo
>> for all possible needs and wants, yet fails utterly to meet my needs
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> own toaster, but that may void my warranty.  Nevertheless, all
> the things necessary to make toast are there.  How dare they!

If it was sold as an espresso/toaster replacement then sure.
Michelle Steiner - 13 May 2010 04:58 GMT
> > Of course, your definition of "crap" is 1.  Anything that doesn't meet
> > your needs or wants, regardless of anyone else's needs wants.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1. Anything that hyped by rabid fanboys as being the ultimate gizmo for
> all possible needs and wants,  

Well, that leaves out everything made by Apple.

> > 2.  Anything made by Apple.
>
> Correction:
>
> 2. Anything overpriced, overhyped, underpowered.

That leaves out everything made by apple.

> Now, it may be that you admit that the above all describe "anything made
> by Apple".  In that case, why defend Apple?

Actually, I deny that the above describes "anything made by Apple", but you
certainly made my point, and you have demonstrated that you are a fanatical
anti-Apple zealot.

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Fa-groon - 13 May 2010 07:02 GMT
>>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is 1.  Anything that doesn't meet
>>> your needs or wants, regardless of anyone else's needs wants.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> certainly made my point, and you have demonstrated that you are a fanatical
> anti-Apple zealot.

Which begs the question, why does he post here and invite scorn and enmity
upon himself?
Richard B. Gilbert - 13 May 2010 14:32 GMT
>>>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is 1.  Anything that doesn't meet
>>>> your needs or wants, regardless of anyone else's needs wants.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Which begs the question, why does he post here and invite scorn and enmity
> upon himself?

Troll??
News - 13 May 2010 12:26 GMT
>>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is 1.  Anything that doesn't meet
>>> your needs or wants, regardless of anyone else's needs wants.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> certainly made my point, and you have demonstrated that you are a fanatical
> anti-Apple zealot.

Haven't you left for Verizon yet?   Get a move on.
Michelle Steiner - 13 May 2010 15:41 GMT
> Haven't you left for Verizon yet?   Get a move on.

I'm waiting for
1.  My contract with AT&T to expire
2.  Verizon to support the iPhone.  Even with its faults, the iPhone is
still better for my needs than anything else currently available.

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Fa-groon - 13 May 2010 06:59 GMT
>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
>> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> all possible needs and wants, yet fails utterly to meet my needs or wants;
> or the needs and wants of other users.

Then, obviously, this group holds nothing of interest for you or others of
your ilk. You clearly don't like what people say here, Mac advocates who post
here regularly clearly don't want you here, so why don't you leave and find a
NG where your needs are more closely met and where you are not unwanted?

>> and/or
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> 2. Anything overpriced, overhyped, underpowered.

Apple obviously makes nothing that interests you. You should move on.
Deltamethrin - 13 May 2010 16:46 GMT
>>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
>>> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Apple obviously makes nothing that interests you. You should move on.

Maybe you should.  You are not the moderator here.
Richard B. Gilbert - 13 May 2010 17:19 GMT
>>>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
>>>> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Maybe you should.  You are not the moderator here.

Have you, somehow, missed the fact that this is NOT a moderated
newsgroup???  People who read the group are complaining about posts that
are clearly off topic!

If you want to talk about the iPad and/or the iPhone please do it
somewhere where it will be "on topic".

If Apple is willing and able to manufacture a CDMA version of the iPhone
 and actually does so, the topic will then be welcome on
alt.cellular.verizon!

Thank you.
Fa-groon - 13 May 2010 17:58 GMT
>>>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
>>>> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Maybe you should.  You are not the moderator here.

That goes double for you, zara!
Deltamethrin - 13 May 2010 20:38 GMT
>>>>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
>>>>> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> That goes double for you, zara!

I don't think your imiganary friend can hear you.  Maybe you should try a
tin can and a length of string.
Deltamethrin - 13 May 2010 16:43 GMT
>> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
>> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Now, it may be that you admit that the above all describe "anything made
> by Apple".  In that case, why defend Apple?

It is difficult for many to admit a mistake so they go to the max defending
it. It's a sign of insecurity.  Also how many people are willing to write
off a $500 mistake and admit to being manipulated by  master manipulator
Jobs and Apple?  It must have been shocking to them to buy a gizmo in good
faith only to find out they were sheared.  With Apple the only things you
get that are more is the hype and price.  The iPad is a totally
underperforming and overpriced excuse for a netbook.
Lloyd Parsons - 13 May 2010 17:00 GMT
> >> Of course, your definition of "crap" is
> >> 1.  Anything that doesn't meet your needs or wants, regardless of anyone
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> get that are more is the hype and price.  The iPad is a totally
> underperforming and overpriced excuse for a netbook.

I guess since it is not a netbook, that's a good thing, huh?

A sure sign of insecurity is posting about things that you don't like,
with pretty much bullshit 'facts' that no one that is in the market for
one cares about.

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Lloyd

nospam - 13 May 2010 18:09 GMT
> It is difficult for many to admit a mistake so they go to the max defending
> it. It's a sign of insecurity.  Also how many people are willing to write
> off a $500 mistake and admit to being manipulated by  master manipulator
> Jobs and Apple? It must have been shocking to them to buy a gizmo in good
> faith only to find out they were sheared.

they could return it or sell it on ebay for *more* than they paid for.

> With Apple the only things you
> get that are more is the hype and price.  

nonsense.

> The iPad is a totally
> underperforming and overpriced excuse for a netbook.

it's not a netbook.

compare the ipad to other tablets, which cost just as much, if not
*more*.
Michelle Steiner - 13 May 2010 18:35 GMT
> The iPad is a totally underperforming and overpriced excuse for a
> netbook.

The iPad is not a netbook, and doesn't pretend to be a netbook.

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nospam - 12 May 2010 20:38 GMT
> Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of storage.

where's the expansion slot on a zune? hint: there isn't one.
Deltamethrin - 13 May 2010 16:47 GMT
>> Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of storage.
>
> where's the expansion slot on a zune? hint: there isn't one.

So the zune and the iPad are the same type of device? Who knew?
nospam - 13 May 2010 18:10 GMT
> >> Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of storage.
> >
> > where's the expansion slot on a zune? hint: there isn't one.
>
> So the zune and the iPad are the same type of device? Who knew?

nobody said they were.
Deltamethrin - 13 May 2010 20:39 GMT
>> >> Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of
>> >> storage.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> nobody said they were.

You are the one who compared them.
nospam - 13 May 2010 21:10 GMT
> >> >> Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of
> >> >> storage.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You are the one who compared them.

nope. read it again:
> >> >> Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of

zunes count as 'everything,' and like ipods, they do not have easy
expansion. they're even more locked down than ipods are.
wetpixel - 13 May 2010 10:05 GMT
> > If you run out of space in a garage you reconsider what has to be in
> > that garage. You remove things not needed, add things that were.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the time.  Why should I have to choose what photos, songs, videos, books,
> etc. I want to have available at any one time?
Bcause that is practical, smart, and necessary in almost very aspect of
life; it's hardly a criticism to say that you should manage it a little
in portable media.
In other words, just because you think it is possible does not mean it
is a failure to have a device with some limits, or a virtue to decide
you are not willing to manage your media a tiny bit.

> Everything (except for Apple crap) allows for easy expansion of storage.
That doesn't make it free, without consequence, or the best idea.
It certainly doesn't make it a virtue that you refuse to do the
smallest bit of self-examination to figure out (for instance) just the
five movies you actually might watch over the next couple days.

> Even the aging Nokia N800 allows as much as 128GB of storage.  We already
> have laptops with TB capacity.  TB capacity mobile devices are coming.
And none of that negates the fact that the user has to manage media a
bit, or that Apple's simpler system is a bad idea, or that somehow the
buyers is getting less.

> And no, I don't want to sync to some "cloud" owned by Apple or Microsoft
> or Google or Amazon.  I'll have my own servers (note the plural), thank
> you.
Right; so what makes you assume you wouldn't in this case?
Why do so many assume that Apple is forcing use of iTunes store just
because it is there?

> Syncing is important; but not selective syncing.
Bullshit. It's a tiny thing to manage, easy to do, practical and
requires few steps (two, in iTunes).
Now, installing huge storage or storing all those files on a dozen SD
cards, that is a real task -- something I'll always be glad to avoid.
But that won't make sense to someone who's claiming it's all necessary
to carry Is this Graves?

> The purpose of syncing
> is for each device (including servers!) to determine what is missing and
> remedy that situation.  The destruction of any one device or server, or
> even multiple devices and server, should not result in the loss of any of
> my data as long as at least one survivor remains.
Nope; backup is merely one of the tasks of synching. Updating is
another. Gathering new data is another. And, in this case, managing
automatic media exchange.

> Storage is cheap enough to afford this easily.  The problem is vendors
> like Apple that produce storage-limited devices to sell to nitwit fanboys
> who think that 16GB of storage is worth $100.
Yet you portray yourself as a nitwit technomoron who insists that if
hardware is capable of storing a lot, then you need be responsible for
no management at all?

> If a vendor does not wish to sell products that suit my needs, I will buy
> from another vendor that will.  I have no loyalty to any vendor; and I
> refuse to buy crap just because it is shiny and made by Apple.
That is what everyone else feels, too. But they haven't all such
blinders that they reject everything shiny just because it is made by
Apple, or to ignore the ways that technology can help them without
making them irresponsible or stupid.
Alan Baker - 07 Feb 2010 22:41 GMT
> >> Todd when you look at the case for the 3G iPad it is different at the
> >> top. It has a plastic strip to allow the 3G antenna to see the world.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.

In the face of the *huge* sales success of the iPhone, how can you say
that? Are you just reality challenged?

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Vancouver, British Columbia
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John Navas - 08 Feb 2010 03:25 GMT
>> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
>
>In the face of the *huge* sales success of the iPhone, how can you say
>that? Are you just reality challenged?

I actually understand the difference between a phone and a tablet
(unlike you apparently).

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Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Alan Baker - 08 Feb 2010 03:30 GMT
> >> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I actually understand the difference between a phone and a tablet
> (unlike you apparently).

And the iPod Touch?

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nospam - 08 Feb 2010 04:16 GMT
> >> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I actually understand the difference between a phone and a tablet
> (unlike you apparently).

apparently you don't. the ipad runs virtually all iphone software. it
basically is a big iphone (minus the phone, of course), and it can work
as a phone with skype or similar.
John Navas - 09 Feb 2010 19:25 GMT
>> >> The lack of a memory card slot is a fatal iDevice flaw IMnsHO.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>apparently you don't. the ipad runs virtually all iphone software. it
>basically is a big iphone (minus the phone, of course), ...

That is easily the silliest and funniest thing I've heard today.  :)

That is runs a version of the iPhone OS rather than a version of OS X is
the _choice_ of apple and a serious limitation, not a rationale.

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Best regards,
John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

nospam - 09 Feb 2010 19:32 GMT
> That is runs a version of the iPhone OS rather than a version of OS X is
> the _choice_ of apple and a serious limitation, not a rationale.

iphone os *is* a version of os x, designed for a touch interface.
Your Name - 09 Feb 2010 20:10 GMT
> > That is runs a version of the iPhone OS rather than a version of OS X is
> > the _choice_ of apple and a serious limitation, not a rationale.
>
> iphone os *is* a version of os x, designed for a touch interface.

The "limitation" is when trying to use a complicated OS written for a mouse
/ trackpad / keyboard on a tablet. That's why all the existing tablet
attempts have failed to sell and the reason the iPad will.
Larry - 09 Feb 2010 22:06 GMT
>> > That is runs a version of the iPhone OS rather than a version of OS X is
>> > the _choice_ of apple and a serious limitation, not a rationale.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> / trackpad / keyboard on a tablet. That's why all the existing tablet
> attempts have failed to sell and the reason the iPad will.

I've changed my opinion of you.  I used to pass you off as just a fanboi
trying to rationalize the obvious deficiencies.  Now, I think you need
professional help to deal with issues of abject brainwashing.

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Larry

Your Name - 10 Feb 2010 05:23 GMT
> >> > That is runs a version of the iPhone OS rather than a version of OS X
> is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> trying to rationalize the obvious deficiencies.  Now, I think you need
> professional help to deal with issues of abject brainwashing.

Yet another made-up bunch of crap and lies from Loser Larry's tiny little
brain.  :-\
Jochem Huhmann - 09 Feb 2010 19:59 GMT
> That is runs a version of the iPhone OS rather than a version of OS X is
> the _choice_ of apple and a serious limitation, not a rationale.

Sometimes you need limitations to be rational.

       Jochem

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John Navas - 09 Feb 2010 23:16 GMT
>> That is runs a version of the iPhone OS rather than a version of OS X is
>> the _choice_ of apple and a serious limitation, not a rationale.
>
>Sometimes you need limitations to be rational.

Only if you're an adolescent.

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John           <http:/navasgroup.com>

If the iPhone is really so impressive,
why do iFans keep making excuses for it?

Priam - 11 Feb 2010 04:51 GMT
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:16:12 -0800, nospam<nospam@nospam.invalid>  wrote

>> apparently you don't. the ipad runs virtually all iphone software. it
>> basically is a big iphone (minus the phone, of course), ...
>
> That is easily the silliest and funniest thing I've heard today.  :)

Rest assured there's no lack of silly things here. Mac Morons, also
called M&Ms, are an ever lasting source of good comedy.

Jooby changes the name and offers them a $500 iPhone that is not a
phone, and they praise their Master.

Still, I wonder what Apple will do with their iTampons when the
Cortex-A9 MPCore based netbooks and tablets will flood the market soon
after the iPad is offered for sale.

Were you able to figure out what this non-multitasking A4 chip is
exactly? If it's a Cortex-A9 MPCore, like everybody claims, how did the
specs end up so badly trimmed down?
Per Rønne - 11 Feb 2010 05:18 GMT
> Jooby changes the name and offers them a $500 iPhone that is not a
> phone

But is the size of an eReader without the hardlinks to bookstores like
Amazon [Kindle] or B&N [Nook].
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Todd Allcock - 11 Feb 2010 06:01 GMT
> > Jooby changes the name and offers them a $500 iPhone that is not a
> > phone
>
> But is the size of an eReader without the hardlinks to bookstores like
> Amazon [Kindle] or B&N [Nook].

Just a "hard link" to the iTunes iBook store, who, without having yet
sold a single book, has already convinced publishers to raise prices on
new releases by 50%.
Per Rønne - 11 Feb 2010 08:04 GMT
> > > Jooby changes the name and offers them a $500 iPhone that is not a
> > > phone
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> sold a single book, has already convinced publishers to raise prices on
> new releases by 50%.

Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.

This means that owners of an iPad will not be forced to use Apple's
iBooks Store only when purchasing e-books. Something especially useful
for those of us who don't live in an English-speaking country. Or do you
think that Italians, Germans, Frenchmen and Danes would accept to be
unable to get books in Italian, German, French and Danish?

BTW, it is reported that Apple's iBook application will use the open
ePub format. This might mean that it is able to be used with e-books
purchased from other bookshops than iBooks Store.
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Per Erik Rønne
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Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Larry - 11 Feb 2010 09:36 GMT
per@RQNNE.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote in news:1jdqqki.170gf5d1fm99c0N%
per@RQNNE.invalid:

> This might mean that it is able to be used with e-books
> purchased from other bookshops than iBooks Store.

Pfat Chance.....

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Per Rønne - 11 Feb 2010 10:43 GMT
> per@RQNNE.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote in news:1jdqqki.170gf5d1fm99c0N%
> per@RQNNE.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Pfat Chance.....

Well, we will always have the alternatie eReader applications already
available in the AppStore ...
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Todd Allcock - 11 Feb 2010 14:22 GMT
> > > But is the size of an eReader without the hardlinks to bookstores like
> > > Amazon [Kindle] or B&N [Nook].
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
> as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.

I'm not convinced the app store will allow those apps to be installed on
the iPad, unless Apple relaxes the "duplicate functionality" rules.

> This means that owners of an iPad will not be forced to use Apple's
> iBooks Store only when purchasing e-books. Something especially useful
> for those of us who don't live in an English-speaking country. Or do you
> think that Italians, Germans, Frenchmen and Danes would accept to be
> unable to get books in Italian, German, French and Danish?

Has Apple announced that iBooks will offer localized stores in other
languages, at least at first?  (Serious question, I don't recall that
from the keynote?)

You do realize you can install ebooks on Noos and Kindle
obtained outside the official stores, right?  You plugthem into a
computer, and load anything you want in a supported format.

The Kindle can even download books from altenate websites, like Gutenberg
and manybooks.net, all using the "free" 3G service Amazon's store is
paying for.

I can even access the Calibre server running on my own computer from the
Kindle's free 3G.  (On of the same kludges iPhone Stanza users use to
transfer books wirelessly for computers to iPhones.)

> BTW, it is reported that Apple's iBook application will use the open
> ePub format.

As does the B&N Nook and the Sony Reader.

> This might mean that it is able to be used with e-books
> purchased from other bookshops than iBooks Store.

Only if unencrypted - Adobe (who's ADEPT system is currently the de facto
standard in ePub format DRM, used on the Sony and B&N products) is
already crying that Apple hasn't licensed it.

So, sure, you'll be able to use public domain works and eBooks you create
yourself out of text documents, but you can already do that with ALL
other readers.
Lloyd Parsons - 11 Feb 2010 14:38 GMT
> > > > But is the size of an eReader without the hardlinks to bookstores
> like
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I'm not convinced the app store will allow those apps to be installed on
> the iPad, unless Apple relaxes the "duplicate functionality" rules.

I think they will be assuming that the reader software from Apple is a
downloadable app vice a system default app.  Of course, we won't know
until it ships, or if somehow Apple tells us before they ship.

> > This means that owners of an iPad will not be forced to use Apple's
> > iBooks Store only when purchasing e-books. Something especially useful
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> and manybooks.net, all using the "free" 3G service Amazon's store is
> paying for.

As long as the DRM doesn't get in the way.  Not all ebook sites use the
same DRM you know.

> I can even access the Calibre server running on my own computer from the
> Kindle's free 3G.  (On of the same kludges iPhone Stanza users use to
> transfer books wirelessly for computers to iPhones.)

I didn't know that.

I know you can't do it that way on the Nook.  You can use Calibre, but
the Nook, just like the Sony reader, has to be connected to the computer.


> > BTW, it is reported that Apple's iBook application will use the open
> > ePub format.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> yourself out of text documents, but you can already do that with ALL
> other readers.
Todd Allcock - 11 Feb 2010 15:29 GMT
>> The Kindle can even download books from altenate websites, like Gutenberg
>> and manybooks.net, all using the "free" 3G service Amazon's store is
>> paying for.
>>
> As long as the DRM doesn't get in the way.  Not all ebook sites use the
> same DRM you know.

True- sorry if I wasn't being clear- my point was only that the iPad's use
of the "open ePub format" will likely mean it renders both unencrypted ePub
ebooks and DRM'd iBooks, just as the Kindle reads unencrypted Mobipocket and
DRM'd Kindle formats.  (The Nook is a dual-format device, it handles both
unencrypted and DRM'd "eReader" format- the old Palm Reader format, as well
as ePub format, both unencrypted and Adobe ADEPT DRM.)

>> I can even access the Calibre server running on my own computer from the
>> Kindle's free 3G.  (On of the same kludges iPhone Stanza users use to
>> transfer books wirelessly for computers to iPhones.)
>>
> I didn't know that.

Calibre's pretty slick.  Running the Calibre server on my computer, I can
hit it from all of my ebook-capable devices- my wife's iPhone running
Stanza, my Windows Mobile devices, and the Kindle.

> I know you can't do it that way on the Nook.

"There's an App for That."  It's called Trook.  It allows the Nook to
connect to any Stanza compatible content server, including Calibre.

>  You can use Calibre, but the Nook, just like the Sony reader, has to be
> connected to the computer.

I don't know about the Sony.
Per Rønne - 11 Feb 2010 19:47 GMT
> > Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
> > as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.
>
> I'm not convinced the app store will allow those apps to be installed on
> the iPad, unless Apple relaxes the "duplicate functionality" rules.

In principle, all iPhone and iPod Touch applications will run on iPad.
All 140,000 of them.

> > This means that owners of an iPad will not be forced to use Apple's
> > iBooks Store only when purchasing e-books. Something especially useful
> > for those of us who don't live in an English-speaking country. Or do you
> > think that Italians, Germans, Frenchmen and Danes would accept to be
> > unable to get books in Italian, German, French and Danish?

> Has Apple announced that iBooks will offer localized stores in other
> languages, at least at first?  (Serious question, I don't recall that
> from the keynote?)

I have seen that only localized iBookStores will be available. If no
localized BookStore for a country, no BookStore will be available.

Already, this is the case with other 'stores' in iTunes. The AppStore is
localized and in generel you cannot say that the applications available
in the US AppStore are the same that are available in the UK and
Denmark.

The same with movies and television series. They can be purchased from a
US 'store' but for copyright reasons, they are not available in Denmark.
The store has not been localized for Denmark and a such is not cannot be
used by Danish customers.

BTW, the largest Danish publishing house, Gyldendal, has already
expressed its interest in publishing e-books on Apple's BookStore. They
just don't want to make it to difficult for their customers so they
don't want CRM encryption. Instead the want the purchaser's name to be
visible in all books purchased. This should enable customers to lend
books to friends without risking lots of pirat copies.

As far as I know, not even UK customers will be able to access the US
BookStore. International copyright rules seem to be obsolete ...
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Per Erik Rønne
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Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Larry - 11 Feb 2010 22:58 GMT
per@RQNNE.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote in news:1jdrmg7.fmsg91pc5tduN%
per@RQNNE.invalid:

> The store has not been localized for Denmark and a such is not cannot be
> used by Danish customers.

Erik,

Can the ebooks posted to alt.binaries.e-book (or e-books) group of usenet
binary groups be read in Denmark?  I don't see a Danish group, but there
are Dutch and German specialty groups with thousands of posts.

Of course, none of these will be of any use to iPad owners, but you can
read all of them on any $299 netbook.....probably even an Air if it doesn't
overheat and burn your hands holding it like an open book.

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Larry

Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 05:04 GMT
> per@RQNNE.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote in news:1jdrmg7.fmsg91pc5tduN%
> per@RQNNE.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Erik,

My first name is 'Per', a kind of Scandinavian shortcut for 'Peter',
just like Dutch 'Pier' and French 'Pierre'.

'Erik' is my first-name-like middle name given to me by my parents in
order to let my initial letters [PER] be the same as my first name
[Per].

I'm aware that some Americans think Per is a honorific like 'Mr',
'Professor' or 'Duke' ... it is not.

> Can the ebooks posted to alt.binaries.e-book (or e-books) group of usenet
> binary groups be read in Denmark?  I don't see a Danish group, but there
> are Dutch and German specialty groups with thousands of posts.

I don't know. I use a German usenet server, datemas.de, that does not
support binary groups.

> Of course, none of these will be of any use to iPad owners, but you can
> read all of them on any $299 netbook.....probably even an Air if it doesn't
> overheat and burn your hands holding it like an open book.

I have absolutely no need of a netbook which is only a cheap [both in
money and equipment] laptop with a built-in 3G connection. I am quite
satisfied with my MacBook which is better and which I can connect to the
internet through WiFi or through my iPhone. Tethering either through
bluetooth or cable. I guess the same can be done with the iPad WiFi -
after all it will have bluetooth too, and the camera connection kit
includes an adaptor that can be put into the iPad's 30-pin port and
which has an ordinary usb-port in the other end.

Whether this will be the case nobody will know before it ships.

And as to use a netbook [or my MacBook] as an eReader: No way. It is too
large and the physical keyboard will only be in the way. It is
impractical in a sofa, in an armchair, in bed and in a train or bus ...
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Tim Adams - 12 Feb 2010 11:25 GMT
> per@RQNNE.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote in news:1jdrmg7.fmsg91pc5tduN%
> per@RQNNE.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> read all of them on any $299 netbook.....probably even an Air if it doesn't
> overheat and burn your hands holding it like an open book.

Since it is a snap to load them onto an iPhone it shouldn't be a problem loading
them onto the iPad.

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you are flamed because you are a hideous troll and keep disrupting
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Todd Allcock - 12 Feb 2010 00:35 GMT
>> > Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
>> > as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> In principle, all iPhone and iPod Touch applications will run on iPad.
> All 140,000 of them.

In principle, all iPhone applications could execute in the background as
well!  ;)

I understand the apps should be perfectly compatible, my point was that as
of yet we don't know if Apple policy will allow alternative eBook apps to
run on the iPad, given the current "no duplicate functionality" decree of
the iP* app store.  It seems unlikely to me that Apple will want to allow
iPad versions of competing eBook readers to be installed.

It'll be interesting to see how Apple handles this- ban alternative ebook
apps on the iPad, but leave them on the iPhone (which will most likely get
an iBooks app of its own,) allow existing iPhone versions of apps to be
"grandfathered" and also install on the iPad (but perhaps only run in less
desirable "iPhone compatibility mode" with ugly pixel doubling) or leave it
open and let the market decide which is the "best" store.  Why am I
skeptical of that last option?  ;)

>> Has Apple announced that iBooks will offer localized stores in other
>> languages, at least at first?  (Serious question, I don't recall that
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> visible in all books purchased. This should enable customers to lend
> books to friends without risking lots of pirat copies.

> As far as I know, not even UK customers will be able to access the US
> BookStore. International copyright rules seem to be obsolete ...
ZnU - 12 Feb 2010 04:29 GMT
> >> > Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
> >> > as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> open and let the market decide which is the "best" store.  Why am I
> skeptical of that last option?  ;)

According to http://www.apple.com/ipad/features/ Apple's iBooks app will
actually be an App Store download, not pre-installed, which would seem
to make it unlikely that Apple will invoke the "duplicates built-in
system functionality" rule on third-party e-book reader apps.

[snip]

> > BTW, the largest Danish publishing house, Gyldendal, has already
> > expressed its interest in publishing e-books on Apple's BookStore. They
> > just don't want to make it to difficult for their customers so they
> > don't want CRM encryption. Instead the want the purchaser's name to be
> > visible in all books purchased. This should enable customers to lend
> > books to friends without risking lots of pirat copies.

I've seen this practice with some technical books available as
downloadable PDFs, etc. Apple also uses a form of it with the DRM-free
music files sold by iTunes. Though the purchaser's name isn't visibly
displayed, the files are watermarked and the purchaser can be traced.

It's a very clever solution for deterring piracy while avoiding the
annoyances of DRM.

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Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 05:04 GMT
> >> > Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
> >> > as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> In principle, all iPhone applications could execute in the background as
> well!  ;)

Not only 'in principle'. You just have to install Backgrounder on a
jailbroken iPhone ...

> I understand the apps should be perfectly compatible, my point was that as
> of yet we don't know if Apple policy will allow alternative eBook apps to
> run on the iPad, given the current "no duplicate functionality" decree of
> the iP* app store.  It seems unlikely to me that Apple will want to allow
> iPad versions of competing eBook readers to be installed.

I see no "no duplicate functionality" decree in the AppStore. Actually,
I see lots of applications that duplicate some of the built-in
applications in iPhone OS.

Just look at calendars. Personally I loath iCal. No week numbers, no
week view, no task integration and even in iCal on the Mac the task
concept is extremely primitive. Instead, I use Pocket Informant. And
OmniFocus in combination with BusyCal on the Mac.

Or look at GPS. The iPhone comes with Maps but you can buy lots of
alternatives that will even include the maps on the device itself saving
data traffic. Personally, I use Navigon Europe but you can purchase Tom
Tom too - and a lot of others.

It is even possible to find alternative browsers to Safari on the
AppStore.

> It'll be interesting to see how Apple handles this- ban alternative ebook
> apps on the iPad, but leave them on the iPhone (which will most likely get
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> open and let the market decide which is the "best" store.  Why am I
> skeptical of that last option?  ;)

I see no need for this. Of course alternative eBook readers will be
available on the iPad AppStore too ... as will books that are published
as applications, like those from O'Reilly.
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Per Erik Rønne
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Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Todd Allcock - 12 Feb 2010 06:07 GMT
> > >> > Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
> > >> > as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Not only 'in principle'. You just have to install Backgrounder on a
> jailbroken iPhone ...

If it were mine rather than my wife's (who isn't a "power user" and only
is bothered by the fact she can't read email while streaming) I'd have
installed it already.

> > I understand the apps should be perfectly compatible, my point was that as
> > of yet we don't know if Apple policy will allow alternative eBook apps to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I see lots of applications that duplicate some of the built-in
> applications in iPhone OS.

Like many of the rules, enforcement seems to vary.

> Just look at calendars. Personally I loath iCal. No week numbers, no
> week view, no task integration and even in iCal on the Mac the task
> concept is extremely primitive. Instead, I use Pocket Informant. And
> OmniFocus in combination with BusyCal on the Mac.

I presume lack of a calendar API is why Aple allows this.  Alternative
calendar apps are required to expand that functionality.


> Or look at GPS. The iPhone comes with Maps but you can buy lots of
> alternatives that will even include the maps on the device itself saving
> data traffic. Personally, I use Navigon Europe but you can purchase Tom
> Tom too - and a lot of others.

I think even Apple would conceed that Maps isn't a navigation app!

> It is even possible to find alternative browsers to Safari on the
> AppStore.

That was a pretty big deal when it happened:
<http://www.macrumors.com/2009/01/13/apple-allows-3rd-party-web-browsers-
in-app-store/>


> > It'll be interesting to see how Apple handles this- ban alternative ebook
> > apps on the iPad, but leave them on the iPhone (which will most likely get
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> available on the iPad AppStore too ... as will books that are published
> as applications, like those from O'Reilly.

Given what Znu pointed out- that the iBooks reader will be an app store
download- eBook reading won't be a "core function" allowing for
alternatives.  that's great news, since it will give the iPad the widest
possible range of content.  
Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 06:44 GMT
> Given what Znu pointed out- that the iBooks reader will be an app store
> download- eBook reading won't be a "core function" allowing for
> alternatives.  that's great news, since it will give the iPad the widest
> possible range of content.  

Yes.

BTW, I forgot to mention the lots of alternative calculators you can
find on the AppStore.

Personally I think these are the best:

WolframAlpha [demands internet access].

SpaceTime [scientific graph calculator].

PowerOne [financial calculator with templates, also user-defined].

They are all good - but meant for different uses.

You can also find lots of HP calculators, even one from HP itself ...
simply put, they are obsolete.
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

nospam - 12 Feb 2010 17:59 GMT
> You can also find lots of HP calculators, even one from HP itself ...
> simply put, they are obsolete.

nonsense. hp calculators are classics, and the hp-12c calculator itself
(the app which hp did), is still available for sale.
Per Rønne - 12 Feb 2010 19:41 GMT
> > You can also find lots of HP calculators, even one from HP itself ...
> > simply put, they are obsolete.
>
> nonsense. hp calculators are classics, and the hp-12c calculator itself
> (the app which hp did), is still available for sale.

Yes, the apps are still available on the AppStore.

BTW, you might also find people who are still using Roman numerals in
addition, subtraction, multiplication and division ...
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

nospam - 12 Feb 2010 23:22 GMT
> > > You can also find lots of HP calculators, even one from HP itself ...
> > > simply put, they are obsolete.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> BTW, you might also find people who are still using Roman numerals in
> addition, subtraction, multiplication and division ...

clearly, you have not used an hp calculator. there's a reason why
they're so popular and why people even collect them.
Michelle Steiner - 12 Feb 2010 23:51 GMT
> > > > You can also find lots of HP calculators, even one from HP itself
> > > > ... simply put, they are obsolete.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> clearly, you have not used an hp calculator. there's a reason why
> they're so popular and why people even collect them.

Then there's this:
<http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id323665854?mt=8>

and this:
<http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id284406088?mt=8>

-- Michelle

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Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 05:21 GMT
> > > > You can also find lots of HP calculators, even one from HP itself ...
> > > > simply put, they are obsolete.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> clearly, you have not used an hp calculator.

I've been using a HP calculator for more than a decade.

> there's a reason why y're so popular and why people even collect them.

For the same reason that there's basis for a Commodore 64 application on
the iPhone.

Nostalgia.

BTW, non-HP calculators like powerOne and PCalc on the iPhone also
support RPN. But the easiest way to integrate is through WolframAlpha,
SpaceTime if no internet access is available. And the easiest way to
perform error-free repeated equation-solving is through user-defined
powerOne templates.
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

nospam - 13 Feb 2010 05:24 GMT
> Nostalgia.

the hp 12c is still sold.

> BTW, non-HP calculators like powerOne and PCalc on the iPhone also
> support RPN.

they don't do a very good job of it.

> But the easiest way to integrate is through WolframAlpha,
> SpaceTime if no internet access is available. And the easiest way to
> perform error-free repeated equation-solving is through user-defined
> powerOne templates.

and that helps someone who wants to calculate a morgage payment with an
hp12c, how?
Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 10:14 GMT
> > Nostalgia.
>
> the hp 12c is still sold.

Still, nostalgia. I trashed my old HP 12C when by accident I had placed
a paper punch on it - the calculator was placed under a sheet of paper
and the display was broken. Instead, I turned to powerOne Graph on my
old Palm Treo.

> > BTW, non-HP calculators like powerOne and PCalc on the iPhone also
> > support RPN.
>
> they don't do a very good job of it.

You don't think so?

> > But the easiest way to integrate is through WolframAlpha,
> > SpaceTime if no internet access is available. And the easiest way to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and that helps someone who wants to calculate a morgage payment with an
> hp12c, how?

If it has to be with a HP 12C I can find four HP 12 C applications on
AppStore two of whom are called 'Financial'.

If you just want to calculate a monthly mortgage payment you can use
WolframAlpha; just write 'mortgage' and you will be presented with cells
to fill in your data.

Or if you come from a country like Denmark where mortgage payments are
done two or four times a year you can use a pre-defined template in
powerOne.
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Your Name - 13 Feb 2010 06:18 GMT
> For the same reason that there's basis for a Commodore 64 application on
> the iPhone.
>
> Nostalgia.

Not only that. Many of the C64 games are actually more playable and more
imaginative than all the silly 3D Doom-clones we get these days.
Per Rønne - 13 Feb 2010 10:14 GMT
> > For the same reason that there's basis for a Commodore 64 application on
> > the iPhone.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Not only that. Many of the C64 games are actually more playable and more
> imaginative than all the silly 3D Doom-clones we get these days.

Well, I installed the C64 before christmas - but at the family's yule
eve party neither children nor adults were interested. But of course,
the adults had been too old for the C64 back in the 80s [already it
professionals or computer science students] and the children had not
even been born yet ... well, in Scandinavia /the/ day is yule eve, 24th
December, and in my family we tend to get the first child at the age of
40 ...
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Fa-groon - 11 Feb 2010 19:57 GMT
>>>> Jooby changes the name and offers them a $500 iPhone that is not a
>>>> phone
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Amazon's Kindle and B&N's Nook are already present on Apple's AppStore
> as iPhone OS applications - as are other eBook readers.

I'm sure that when the iPad ships, Amazon and B&N will have iPad specific
readers available for it. The problem with the iPhone/Touch readers is that
they are formatted for those unit's small screens. Used on an iPad, these
iPhone apps will likely either display their content as an iPhone sized
screen in the middle of the large iPad screen, or they will fill that screen
with kindergarten sized text. I consider neither to be a satisfactory
solution.  

> This means that owners of an iPad will not be forced to use Apple's
> iBooks Store only when purchasing e-books. Something especially useful
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> ePub format. This might mean that it is able to be used with e-books
> purchased from other bookshops than iBooks Store.

Basically, it will remain an interface issue. There are number of e-book
readers available for iPhone/Touch now. They are all slightly different in
the way that they work. Of all of them I've tried, I like the Kindle app's
interface the best. If Apple nails the interface for their e-book reader,
then, indeed it will be used to buy books from all sources, but if not, I'll
continue to use the Kindle app.
Per Rønne - 11 Feb 2010 20:25 GMT
> I'm sure that when the iPad ships, Amazon and B&N will have iPad specific
> readers available for it. The problem with the iPhone/Touch readers is that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with kindergarten sized text. I consider neither to be a satisfactory
> solution.  

The iPad already has the feature that any iPhone application can run on
it in such a way that if you touch a button, every pixel will quadruple.
So one pixel will fill two pixels as well vertically as horizontally.
Bur of course this will not solve the problem in the way it should.

I agree with you that the present eReaders for the iPhone will come in
versions for the iPad.

> > This means that owners of an iPad will not be forced to use Apple's
> > iBooks Store only when purchasing e-books. Something especially useful
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> then, indeed it will be used to buy books from all sources, but if not, I'll
> continue to use the Kindle app.

I have tried those that were free, and with free e-books only, and I
happen to agree with you.

However, I have also seen that some publishing houses has published
e-books for the iPhone outside eReader applications. The e-books are
published as appliations instead. I guess companies like O'Reilly will
soon upgrade these apps such that they will better suit the iPad.
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http://www.RQNNE.dk
Errare humanum est, sed in errore perseverare turpe

Priam - 11 Feb 2010 19:04 GMT
>>> Jooby changes the name and offers them a $500 iPhone that is not a
>>> phone
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> sold a single book, has already convinced publishers to raise prices on
> new releases by 50%.

Don't forget the Apple Kindle sells for only $500. Jooby has to grab the
Apple tax somewhere.
Priam - 11 Feb 2010 19:00 GMT
>> Jooby changes the name and offers them a $500 iPhone that is not a
>> phone
>
> But is the size of an eReader without the hardlinks to bookstores like
> Amazon [Kindle] or B&N [Nook].

A $500 Kindle! How nice!
Michelle Steiner - 03 Feb 2010 16:45 GMT
> The difference between an WiFi-only iPad and a 3G one is
> plug, *click*, and close the case.

In case you hadn't noticed, they have different cases.

> I noticed that if Apple had built it with a 56k modem as the only
> connectivity option, you'd be defending that decision as a stroke of
> genius with rationalizations about the reliability of landline service
> and the ubiquity of phone jacks.

You didn't notice any such thing.  We would be screaming that Apple really
stepped on it, big time.

That's the problem with you extremists; everything to you is black and
white, and you can't imagine anyone else seeing shades of grey.  Heck, you
can't imagine grey at all.

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Todd Allcock - 03 Feb 2010 19:30 GMT
> > The difference between an WiFi-only iPad and a 3G one is
> > plug, *click*, and close the case.
>
> In case you hadn't noticed, they have different cases.

I hadn't but in either case, I suspect the case simply accomodates the
module.  I never meant to suggest end users or Apple store employees
would be slapping them in- just that Aplle probably designed them to
easily accomodate different wireless technologies as needed.


> > I noticed that if Apple had built it with a 56k modem as the only
> > connectivity option, you'd be defending that decision as a stroke of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You didn't notice any such thing.  We would be screaming that Apple really
> stepped on it, big time.

I used "you" in the singular, meaning our resident troll, Vic, who I was
replying to, and used an obviously ridiculous hyperbole.  How did you see
yourself lumped in there?  (Perhaps the lady doth protest too much?)  ;)


> That's the problem with you extremists; everything to you is black and
> white, and you can't imagine anyone else seeing shades of grey.  Heck, you
> can't imagine grey at all.

Again, I was referring to an individual.  Apparently you've branded me a
member of some anti-Apple terrorist group, which seems terribly black and
white of you!  

I was simply taking issue with Vic's comment that Amazon used the "wrong"
technology vs. Apple using the "right" technology, suggesting that to
Vic, the "right" tech is automatically that which has been ordained by
Apple.
Michelle Steiner - 03 Feb 2010 20:32 GMT
> > > I noticed that if Apple had built it with a 56k modem as the only
> > > connectivity option, you'd be defending that decision as a stroke of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> see yourself lumped in there?  (Perhaps the lady doth protest too much?)
>  ;)

You've been mouthing off about "fanboys", so I took your "you" to be the
generic "you" for all Apple supporters.

BTW, our resident trolls are Larry and "News".  At least Vic usually stays
on topic.

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Todd Allcock - 04 Feb 2010 03:09 GMT
> > > > I noticed that if Apple had built it with a 56k modem as the only
> > > > connectivity option, you'd be defending that decision as a stroke of
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> You've been mouthing off about "fanboys", so I took your "you" to be the
> generic "you" for all Apple supporters.

Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with fanbois.
Vic is a fanboi.

> BTW, our resident trolls are Larry and "News".  At least Vic usually stays
> on topic.

On topic here, perhaps- in the pile of unrelated cellular groups he
crossposts to, no so much.
Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 04:46 GMT
> Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with fanbois.

I've yet to see you make that distinction.

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Todd Allcock - 04 Feb 2010 06:13 GMT
> > Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with
> > fanbois.
>
> I've yet to see you make that distinction.

If you've somehow felt included in any "fanboi" comments I've made, I'm
not sure if that's more a reflection on me or you!

Perhaps we need some sort of Jeff Foxworthy-esque "You know yer an Apple
Fanboi if.." test?  ;)
Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Feb 2010 13:56 GMT
>>> Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with
>>> fanbois.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Perhaps we need some sort of Jeff Foxworthy-esque "You know yer an Apple
> Fanboi if.." test?  ;)

Apple McIntosh is no better and no worse than a PC and Windows for
anything that *I* need/want to do.  I say this from twenty to
twenty-five years of observation and maybe four hours "face time".

As an IT professional I had to deal with Macs from time to time.  At one
time I even considered buying a Mac but the pricing forced me out of the
market.  My first PC was a "Trash 80".

"Graphic Arts" people love the Mac.  Nobody else, AFAICT, gives a sh.t!
SMS - 04 Feb 2010 15:06 GMT
<snip>

> "Graphic Arts" people love the Mac.  Nobody else, AFAICT, gives a sh.t!

One area where the Mac excels, and maybe it's still considered graphics
arts, is in video editing. For simple productions, iMovie is very
intuitive and easy to use. For Hollywood productions, Final Cut Pro is a
very popular and inexpensive alternative to Avid when you're not doing
extremely complicated stuff. iMovie and Final Cut Pro are available only
for the Mac.

It upset a lot of video editors in Hollywood when Apple dropped the
CardBus slot from their MacBooks. You could stick the digital media card
from the Panasonic Professional Video Cameras directly into the MacBook
for backups and for on-the-spot editing. Now you have to carry around a
bulky external card reader.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 04 Feb 2010 15:58 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> extremely complicated stuff. iMovie and Final Cut Pro are available only
> for the Mac.

Meanwhile, the rest of the graphic arts community is perfectly well
served by the software running on ANY platform.  For better or worse,
Adobe CS is Adobe CS, regardless of the platform it's running on.

And in most ways (and this has been coming for some time now), Apple's
infrastructure for printing is way inferior to that of Windows.  Now
that PDF is the way to go, that's not as important as maybe it once
was--but it's still an issue.  Windows printing is superior.

And please note:  I say the above (writing it on my iMac) as a 22 year
Mac user who strongly prefers the Macintosh overall, but who also works
in the graphic arts world and sees the reality.
Fa-groon - 04 Feb 2010 21:30 GMT
>> <snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Mac user who strongly prefers the Macintosh overall, but who also works
> in the graphic arts world and sees the reality.

The Mac has several advantages for graphic arts that Windows doesn't have.
First is built-in PDF as well as PostScript rasterization (OSX converts
PostScript images to PDF and then displays them as fully rasterized). Also
Macs have system-level color calibration which works far better than the
application-level system employed by Windows.

You are correct that Photoshop is Photoshop and Illustrator is Illustrator on
either platform, but God is in the details, as they say, and with regard to
graphics, the details are in the extra mile that Apple goes to support the
graphics world.
Alan Baker - 04 Feb 2010 21:11 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> for backups and for on-the-spot editing. Now you have to carry around a
> bulky external card reader.

For values of "bulky" that equate to "small enough to fit in a shirt
pocket"

Come on: you really think that someone who is carrying both a
professional video camera and a laptop isn't going to have room for a
card reader?

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Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 16:07 GMT
> Apple McIntosh is no better and no worse than a PC and Windows for
> anything that *I* need/want to do.

There is no such thing as "Apple McIntosh"; it's "Apple Macintosh".

> Apple McIntosh is no better and no worse than a PC and Windows for
> anything that *I* need/want to do.  I say this from twenty to
> twenty-five years of observation and maybe four hours "face time".

Four hours over 25 years?  You don't know enough about it to say anything
about it.  You don't even know how to spell it.

> "Graphic Arts" people love the Mac.  Nobody else, AFAICT, gives a sh.t!

In that case, you can't tell anything.

IT professionals, for the most part, hate the Macintosh because Macs give
and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood of IT
professionals.

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WindsorFox<[SS]> - 04 Feb 2010 17:47 GMT
>> Apple McIntosh is no better and no worse than a PC and Windows for
>> anything that *I* need/want to do.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood of IT
> professionals.

   Then why don't IT pros use Macs?

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Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 17:52 GMT
> > IT professionals, for the most part, hate the Macintosh because Macs
> > give and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood
> > of IT professionals.
>
>     Then why don't IT pros use Macs?

Because they don't want Macs anywhere in their system.  They want computers
that require their expertise.

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WindsorFox<[SS]> - 04 Feb 2010 18:49 GMT
>>> IT professionals, for the most part, hate the Macintosh because Macs
>>> give and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Because they don't want Macs anywhere in their system.  They want computers
> that require their expertise.

   No, they want computers that do what they need done. The Internet
does not run on a Mac. Most of the ones I know run some type of Linux.

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Fa-groon - 04 Feb 2010 21:33 GMT
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:49:43 -0800, WindsorFox wrote
(in article <hkf4t2$djn$1@posting2.glorb.com>):

>>>> IT professionals, for the most part, hate the Macintosh because Macs
>>>> give and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>     No, they want computers that do what they need done. The Internet
> does not run on a Mac. Most of the ones I know run some type of Linux.

Servers are irrelevant to this desktop discussion.
Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Feb 2010 17:53 GMT
>> Apple McIntosh is no better and no worse than a PC and Windows for
>> anything that *I* need/want to do.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood of IT
> professionals.

I was an IT professional before I retired.  I didn't hate the Mac.  I
didn't have much call to do anything to or with them.  I recall having
to change the IP addresses and netmasks on about eight of them.  It took
a couple of minutes to figure out the how and and thirty seconds or so
per machine to do it.  The company I worked for had about 300 PC's and
the aforementioned Macs.  PCs were used in the call center for order
entry.  The Mac's were used for a typesetting application and some graphics.

My primary responsibility was administering a bunch of VMS and Unix
systems.  In my copious spare time I patched Windows machines, removed
viruses and worms, installed new hardware. . . .
No Apple 4 Verizon! - 04 Feb 2010 18:48 GMT
On Feb 4, 12:53 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> > In article <E4adnU3wda8rT_fWnZ2dnUVZ_hGdn...@giganews.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> systems.  In my copious spare time I patched Windows machines, removed
> viruses and worms, installed new hardware. . . .

Unix and OSX are some what similar.
Skills on one transfer to the other.
ZnU - 06 Feb 2010 04:27 GMT
In article
<33fb22b5-a054-46c8-b492-31c904905116@c4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

> On Feb 4, 12:53 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Unix and OSX are some what similar.
> Skills on one transfer to the other.

As of 10.5, OS X is UNIX(TM):
http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3555.htm
http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3581.htm

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Fa-groon - 04 Feb 2010 21:31 GMT
>> Apple McIntosh is no better and no worse than a PC and Windows for
>> anything that *I* need/want to do.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood of IT
> professionals.

Hell, I've had IT people TELL ME THAT! "If we had all Macs, I'd have nothing
to do!"
(PeteCresswell) - 04 Feb 2010 22:08 GMT
Per Michelle Steiner:
>IT professionals, for the most part, hate the Macintosh because Macs give
>and cause less trouble, meaning that they endanger the livelihood of IT
>professionals.

Speaking as an IT professional - and a one-time Mac chauvinist
who managed to write a sales/inventory app for his Mac -  that
has not been my experience.

The reasons I saw that my IT department (large electric utility
on the East Coast of the USA) didn't like Macs were:

1) Maintenance: Keeping the environment all PC simplified
  maintenance.

2) Development: An all-PC environment means only having to
  develop/deploy for that one platform.

3) Support:  At the time, IBM was all about corporate-level
  support and Apple wasn't having any of it.

4) IBM-Generated FUD: At the time the corporation was buying
  it.  

Item #4 is probably moot today, but items 1-3 still apply in
the places I've worked in over the last 10 years and the
place I'm working now.

Also: couple years back my grand daughter graduated from design
school and just *had* to have a Mac - so I bought her a
G-something-or-other and had a couple of weeks to play with it
before graduation day.

My take was that Mac has pretty much lost the edge both in UI and
plug-and-playness.   I'm not saying it's that much worse than
Windows, but it's definitely not head-and-shoulders above Windows
like it was back in the DOS and/or Win98 days.

She's currently using a PC.
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nospam - 04 Feb 2010 22:13 GMT
> 1) Maintenance: Keeping the environment all PC simplified
>    maintenance.

that's an argument against a mixed environment, not against macs, and
maintenance would be easier if it was all mac anyway.

> 2) Development: An all-PC environment means only having to
>    develop/deploy for that one platform.

that's an argument against a mixed environment, not against macs.
developing software is generally much faster on a mac, so again, macs
would be the better choice.

transitioning, however, would be difficult.

> 3) Support:  At the time, IBM was all about corporate-level
>    support and Apple wasn't having any of it.

what corporate level support did you need?

> 4) IBM-Generated FUD: At the time the corporation was buying
>    it.  

that happens.
Richard B. Gilbert - 04 Feb 2010 22:27 GMT
> Per Michelle Steiner:
>> IT professionals, for the most part, hate the Macintosh because Macs give
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Windows, but it's definitely not head-and-shoulders above Windows
> like it was back in the DOS and/or Win98 days.

Head and shoulders above Windows 98 was not that tough a target.

Head and shoulders above W/XP is a bit more difficult.  And a lot still
depends on what you want to do with the machine.
Larry - 04 Feb 2010 22:52 GMT
"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in news:QM6dnZs_7PDl1
_bWnZ2dnUVZ_v1i4p2d@giganews.com:

> And a lot still
> depends on what you want to do with the machine.

And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of the
software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for years.

....The same is true for Linux, of course, but at least Linux has its
dedicated hacker base who usually come out with their own brand of the
software which is usually far superior to the original Win version,
anyways.

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Larry

nospam - 04 Feb 2010 22:59 GMT
> And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of the
> software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for years.

*which* software?

you mean like final cut pro, for which there is no windows version at
all? or aperture?

> ....The same is true for Linux, of course, but at least Linux has its
> dedicated hacker base who usually come out with their own brand of the
> software which is usually far superior to the original Win version,
> anyways.

hah. you're delusional.
Fa-groon - 04 Feb 2010 23:27 GMT
> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in news:QM6dnZs_7PDl1
> _bWnZ2dnUVZ_v1i4p2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of the
> software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for years.

An example please of what we Mac Owners are "still waiting" for? Because I
don't think that you know what you are talking about.
(PeteCresswell) - 05 Feb 2010 01:25 GMT
Per Fa-groon:
>An example please of what we Mac Owners are "still waiting" for? Because I
>don't think that you know what you are talking about.

I'm not the poster you are responding to, but my experience is
that at least some of them are waiting for Microsoft Access tb
available on Macs.
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Michelle Steiner - 05 Feb 2010 00:50 GMT
> And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of the
> software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for years.

Which software in particular?

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Per Rønne - 05 Feb 2010 04:49 GMT
> > And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of the
> > software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for years.
>
> Which software in particular?

The Mac MS Office is still missing some applications. In particular
Access and Project. Well, Project used to be a Mac application too, back
in the days of MacOS Classic.
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Michelle Steiner - 05 Feb 2010 14:17 GMT
> > > And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of
> > > the software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Access and Project. Well, Project used to be a Mac application too, back
> in the days of MacOS Classic.

There's lots of project management software for the Mac.  BTW, Project is
not part of Office; it is a separate software package.  And Access is
available only with the Professional and Ultimate versions of Office.  
Besides, who would want to use Access when they have Filemaker Pro
available?

I remember the days when Excel, Pagemaker, and Photoshop were available
only for the Mac, and Windows didn't have them.

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Larry - 05 Feb 2010 16:07 GMT
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in news:michelle-
08EFBB.07172305022010@nothing.attdns.com:

> I remember the days when Excel, Pagemaker, and Photoshop were available
> only for the Mac, and Windows didn't have them.

At our Best Buy, in the middle of the Windows software section, is the
Apple kiosk.  The Macs are all there with half a shelf of software.

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SMS - 05 Feb 2010 17:34 GMT
<snip>

> At our Best Buy, in the middle of the Windows software section, is the
> Apple kiosk.  The Macs are all there with half a shelf of software.

The thing is, with a Mac, you can run all of the Mac-only titles (and
there are some very good ones) and if you need Windows-only titles for
specialized scientific, engineering, financial, or educational
applications you can dual boot Windows. It doesn't work in the other
direction since very few Windows laptops can run OS-X without limitations.

A MacBook is not terribly more expensive than a similarly configured
Windows laptop with a dual core Centrino processor, $200 more or so.
What you can't buy is an Apple laptop for $300-400 like the
super-low-end laptops with high power (watts, not performance) desktop
processors you often see available. You can thank Apple for not getting
into the business of producing low-cost, crappy quality, laptops.
Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 02:04 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> processors you often see available. You can thank Apple for not getting
> into the business of producing low-cost, crappy quality, laptops.

Nice try but Sorry, plenty of NON crappy laptops in the $500-$600
category.

Steve
Your Name - 06 Feb 2010 02:27 GMT
> > <snip>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Nice try but Sorry, plenty of NON crappy laptops in the $500-$600
> category.

There may well be, but none of them are anywhere near equal in specs nor
quality to Apple's laptops.
Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 03:11 GMT
>>> <snip>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> There may well be, but none of them are anywhere near equal in specs nor
> quality to Apple's laptops.

Quality?  That is not what it used to be with Apple.  Same parts
everyone uses.

And who said anything about specs?

Steve
Fa-groon - 06 Feb 2010 07:07 GMT
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Steve

So, when a $500-$600 Windows Laptop uses DDR2 DRAM and an 800 MHz frontside
bus, those are the same parts as a Macbook with DDR3 DRAM and 1066 MHz
frontside bus? I see.
SMS - 06 Feb 2010 07:33 GMT
> So, when a $500-$600 Windows Laptop uses DDR2 DRAM and an 800 MHz frontside
> bus, those are the same parts as a Macbook with DDR3 DRAM and 1066 MHz
> frontside bus? I see.

You can certainly buy a name brand Windows laptop with DDR3 DRAM and
1066 MHz for $600.
Fa-groon - 06 Feb 2010 15:31 GMT
>> So, when a $500-$600 Windows Laptop uses DDR2 DRAM and an 800 MHz frontside
>> bus, those are the same parts as a Macbook with DDR3 DRAM and 1066 MHz
>> frontside bus? I see.
>
> You can certainly buy a name brand Windows laptop with DDR3 DRAM and
> 1066 MHz for $600.

I didn't say you couldn't. My contention is with de Mented's assertion that
Mac laptops have all the same parts as cheap Windows laptops. In most cases,
this simply is NOT the case.
Your Name - 06 Feb 2010 21:07 GMT
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:11:48 -0800, Steve de Mena wrote
(in article <wtydnRf5lLVpQPHWnZ2dnUVZ_qxi4p2d@giganews.com>):

> Your Name wrote:
>> In article <bpydnYI77JmBU_HWnZ2dnUVZ_q9i4p2d@giganews.com>, Steve de Mena
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> And who said anything about specs?

Oh god! We're dealing with another anti-Apple moron with a brain the size of
an ant. Gee, it's such a surprise that an 486 PC computer with a 15" CRT
display is cheaper than a Core i7 iMac?!?! You may as well complain that
Ferraris aren't as cheap as Hyundai, they both have four wheels and an
engine. :-\

Good grief there are some absolute imbeciles on this planet ... and the
scary thing is most of them end up in politics and management!   :-(
Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 21:37 GMT
> On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:11:48 -0800, Steve de Mena wrote
> (in article <wtydnRf5lLVpQPHWnZ2dnUVZ_qxi4p2d@giganews.com>):
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> an ant. Gee, it's such a surprise that an 486 PC computer with a 15" CRT
> display is cheaper than a Core i7 iMac?!?!

Right, when I talked about "NON crappy laptops in the $500-$600
category" I was referring to 486 PC with 15" CRTs.

Now whose brain is the size of an ant?

How many Apple computers have you bought?  I bet I've bought more.

Steve
Todd Allcock - 06 Feb 2010 22:47 GMT
> On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:11:48 -0800, Steve de Mena wrote
> (in article <wtydnRf5lLVpQPHWnZ2dnUVZ_qxi4p2d@giganews.com>):
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> Good grief there are some absolute imbeciles on this planet ... and the
> scary thing is most of them end up in politics and management!   :-(

I think the point was "quality", which I interpreted from a reliabilty
stanpoint.  The argument being that since Apple now uses many of the same
"off the shelf" compoments and chipsets used by PC makers, the "quality"
might be similar.  There's not reason reason to believe a particular
vendor's DDR3 memory chips are any longer lasting or reliable than their
DDR2 chips used in a low end PC.

Specs are another issue entirely, and I guess the only argument there is
that low-spec'd PCs open up computing to more economic levels.  If the only
cars availalbe were Ferraris, less people would be able to afford cars- some
can only afford Hyundais.

If Grandma wants a computer to shop on eBay and receive pictures of the
grandkids via email, any lousy $250 PC will do, whereas a $500 "entry-level"
Mac, while of couse being a better machine, would be overkill, much like the
Ferrari would be overkill for Grandma's occasional shopping trips to the
grocer or the pharmacy.

(Insert the obligatory "then just buy a used $250 Mac" counter-argument
here...)
Alan Baker - 06 Feb 2010 22:49 GMT
> > On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:11:48 -0800, Steve de Mena wrote
> > (in article <wtydnRf5lLVpQPHWnZ2dnUVZ_qxi4p2d@giganews.com>):
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> (Insert the obligatory "then just buy a used $250 Mac" counter-argument
> here...)

On the contrary. The extra $250 (which over a reasonable machine
lifetime works out to something like $5/month more) is money well spent
when it's Grandma. She's the one who's going to least be able to
understand and thus needs the machine that provides that easiest to use
experience.

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Larry - 07 Feb 2010 01:59 GMT
> Oh god! We're dealing with another anti-Apple moron with a brain the size of
> an ant. Gee, it's such a surprise that an 486 PC computer with a 15" CRT
> display is cheaper than a Core i7 iMac?!?! You may as well complain that
> Ferraris aren't as cheap as Hyundai, they both have four wheels and an
> engine. :-\

The fun part of this comparison is unless you're a super gamer, it makes no
difference at all as the BIG drag on getting something done is the SAME
internet data rates on both machines and the same old 7200 RPM crap
harddrives BOTH computers have been running since way back when....

A Cray supercomputer plugged into the hard drive in your laptop, Mac, Win7,
netbook and your internet modem operates the internet EXACTLY at the same
speed as your cheapest netbook.....all waiting for DATA locally or by
remote control.  All that power only matters if you're crunching
numbers....BIG numbers.

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SMS - 06 Feb 2010 03:29 GMT
<snip>

> Nice try but Sorry, plenty of NON crappy laptops in the $500-$600 category.

This is true, but it jives with what I said. You can buy an Apple laptop
for $800, about $200 more than a high quality laptop from a top tier
manufacturer with similar specifications.
Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 04:51 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for $800, about $200 more than a high quality laptop from a top tier
> manufacturer with similar specifications.

You just don't get the level of Windows support that other hardware
manufacturers provide (HP, Dell, etc.)

Steve
nospam - 06 Feb 2010 05:26 GMT
> You just don't get the level of Windows support that other hardware
> manufacturers provide (HP, Dell, etc.)

to end users? included with the purchase price?

if you have a problem with an apple product and it's under warranty,
take it to an apple store and if they can't fix it on the spot, it will
be fixed in as little as 3 hours, for free, or they pull a new one off
the shelf, depending on what it is.

does hp or dell do that? where's the dell store again?
Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 12:01 GMT
>> You just don't get the level of Windows support that other hardware
>> manufacturers provide (HP, Dell, etc.)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> does hp or dell do that? where's the dell store again?

I said "Windows support".

Apple only just a few weeks ago released Boot Camp drivers for Windows
7, months and months after everyone else.

When the next Service Pack or major version of Windows is released, I,
as a consumer, don't have confidence they will update those boot camp
drivers in a speedy manner, or at all.  Or maybe not for my model.
(My 2nd Gen MacBook Pro 15" is not supported by the latest Boot Camp
drivers).  What is worse is that I suspect their delayed release of
support for Windows 7 was *intentional*.

Steve
nospam - 06 Feb 2010 18:56 GMT
> > if you have a problem with an apple product and it's under warranty,
> > take it to an apple store and if they can't fix it on the spot, it will
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I said "Windows support".

you can get 'mac support' at an apple store, in or outside of warranty.
they'll even help you with a windows machine if it relates to using an
apple product, such as plugging an ipod into a dell laptop.

> Apple only just a few weeks ago released Boot Camp drivers for Windows
> 7, months and months after everyone else.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> drivers).  What is worse is that I suspect their delayed release of
> support for Windows 7 was *intentional*.

oh please. it's not as high a priority as other more important things.
most mac users don't regularly run windows and not that many xp users
(the bulk of the userbase) upgrade to windows 7 anyway, largely because
microsoft intentionally made it difficult (very stupid move). get
vmware or parallels instead. they run win7 just fine.
Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 21:35 GMT
>>> if you have a problem with an apple product and it's under warranty,
>>> take it to an apple store and if they can't fix it on the spot, it will
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> microsoft intentionally made it difficult (very stupid move). get
> vmware or parallels instead. they run win7 just fine.

You're just full of inside information & statistics today!

"it's not as high a priority [for Apple] as other more important things"

"most mac users don't regularly run windows"

"not that many xp users (the bulk of the userbase) upgrade to windows
7 anyway"

Regardless, I fail to see how that contradicts what I said about one
not getting the same level of Window support from Apple as one would
if they bought a PC from Dell or HP.

Steve
nospam - 06 Feb 2010 21:43 GMT
> "it's not as high a priority [for Apple] as other more important things"
>
> "most mac users don't regularly run windows"

cite something that shows otherwise. if win7 support was a high
priority, it would have been done much earlier. common sense, really.

> "not that many xp users (the bulk of the userbase) upgrade to windows
> 7 anyway"

given that microsoft made it nearly impossible to move from xp to win7,
that statement is true.

<http://www.infoworld.com/d/windows/windows-7-quickly-displacing-vista-n
ot-xp-582>

 Windows 7 is quickly displacing Vista -- but not XP

 InfoWorld's tracking service shows that Windows 7 uptake is surging,
 and Vista switchers account for the lion's share

 And even that number is beginning to erode: As Windows 7 picks up
 user share, it seems to be making most of its gains at the expense of
 Vista. In fact, there seems to be a direct correlation between
 Windows 7 adoption and Vista abandonment, with the latter losing a
 percentage point and the former gaining the same in a little over a
 week.

 Of course, the lion's share of our user base remains on Windows XP.

> Regardless, I fail to see how that contradicts what I said about one
> not getting the same level of Window support from Apple as one would
> if they bought a PC from Dell or HP.

why would anyone expect a high level of windows support from apple? do
you call dell for os x support if you manage to install it on a
netbook?
Larry - 07 Feb 2010 01:53 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:060220101343001778%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

> Windows 7 is quickly displacing Vista -- but not XP

Want to guess why?

My guess is fairly basic.....bloatware.  XP works great, really it does!  
It run for months without rebooting, rarely crashes now that the users have
beta tested the bugs out of it.  XP software has also very nicely matured
and rarely crashes, either.  So, why would anyone want to change, just for
the glitz and glamour and Mac-like bloatware GUI sucking up the CPU that
could be better spent working on my input than the pretty graphics?

BINGO!  XP has plenty of graphics and is very easy to use.  Unfortunately
for Redmond, Earth's XP population has also gotten very comfortable with
it, like an old friend, and no longer are buying into the constant
revolving OS door the company created trying to keep the income flowing in
all these years.

Corporate customers fail to see any new benefit that would warrant the
outlay of money and wasted time training Win7 to its XP users who do just
fine with the current, STABLE software.  Why create more headaches in the
depressed financial environment most companies can no longer ignore.

Vista customers are going to 7 out of desparation trying to escape the
Vista disaster that also scared the XP users into NOT upgrading to it....or
any future version of Windows.

Win7 gives them the hope to escape the Vista mistake....like they did
escaping to XP from horrible ME or 2000 disasters.  Staying with Win98
until XP was stable was sheer genius!

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ZnU - 07 Feb 2010 04:18 GMT
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:060220101343001778%
> nospam@nospam.invalid:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> fine with the current, STABLE software.  Why create more headaches in the
> depressed financial environment most companies can no longer ignore.

This is precisely the problem with Microsoft's business model. While
Apple is off building interesting products for people who care,
Microsoft has settled into the role of delivering "good enough" generic
computing infrastructure. So most people get about as excited over a
Windows upgrade as they would about, say, renovations to bring
electrical wiring up to code.

> Vista customers are going to 7 out of desparation trying to escape the
> Vista disaster that also scared the XP users into NOT upgrading to it....or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> escaping to XP from horrible ME or 2000 disasters.  Staying with Win98
> until XP was stable was sheer genius!

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(PeteCresswell) - 07 Feb 2010 21:26 GMT
Per Larry:
> XP software has also very nicely matured
>and rarely crashes, either.  So, why would anyone want to change, just for
>the glitz and glamour and Mac-like bloatware GUI sucking up the CPU that
>could be better spent working on my input than the pretty graphics?

Not just that, but every time they introduce a new OS,
functionality gets moved around for no apparent reason - so
somebody who is used to using the old OS to the point where it's
like tying their shoes - almost 100% automatic - has to re-learn
basic tasks in the new system.

I could understand if there were some reason for the moves, but
all the ones I've come up against seemed tb totally gratuitous.
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Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 03:11 GMT
>> "it's not as high a priority [for Apple] as other more important things"
>>
>> "most mac users don't regularly run windows"
>
> cite something that shows otherwise. if win7 support was a high
> priority, it would have been done much earlier. common sense, really.

I'm saying it was done intentionally, Windows 7 support wasn't delayed
because it was a "low priority".

>> "not that many xp users (the bulk of the userbase) upgrade to windows
>> 7 anyway"
>
> given that microsoft made it nearly impossible to move from xp to win7,
> that statement is true.

Right, using Windows Easy Transfer is "nearly impossible". I've done
it once on my brother's system (& using a backup file too) and it
worked great.

XP market share is going down as Windows 7 increases, and not
primarily from Vista:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11

>> Regardless, I fail to see how that contradicts what I said about one
>> not getting the same level of Window support from Apple as one would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you call dell for os x support if you manage to install it on a
> netbook?

I'm talking about driver support primarily.  But Apple markets their
systems as being able to run Windows, so yes I expect support.  Dell
does not market netbooks as being OS X compatible, so your analogy is
FLAWED.

Steve
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 03:21 GMT
> >> "it's not as high a priority [for Apple] as other more important things"
> >> "most mac users don't regularly run windows"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'm saying it was done intentionally, Windows 7 support wasn't delayed
> because it was a "low priority".

where's your proof? were you a participant of the meetings at apple
where they said they would intentionally delay it?

no, you weren't.

> > given that microsoft made it nearly impossible to move from xp to win7,
> > that statement is true.
>
> Right, using Windows Easy Transfer is "nearly impossible". I've done
> it once on my brother's system (& using a backup file too) and it
> worked great.

it's a royal pain in the a.s, and there was absolutely no reason to do
make it so difficult.

<http://cnettv.cnet.com/upgrade-windows-xp-windows-7/9742-1_53-50078260.
html>

compare that to apple where you can migrate from os x several versions
back, with one click.

> XP market share is going down as Windows 7 increases, and not
> primarily from Vista:

because people are buying new machines. they are *not* migrating their
xp boxes because it's such a bitch (see above).
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 07:56 GMT
>>>> "it's not as high a priority [for Apple] as other more important things"
>>>> "most mac users don't regularly run windows"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> no, you weren't.

Doesn't really matter here kiddo.  We're in an internet newsgroup, not
a court of law.  There is no reasonable explanation why it took Apple
SIX MONTHS, with their limited range of hardware they support with
Boot Camp, to support Windows 7, when Dell, HP, etc, supported it on
launch day.

>>> given that microsoft made it nearly impossible to move from xp to win7,
>>> that statement is true.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> compare that to apple where you can migrate from os x several versions
> back, with one click.

Can't migrate from PPC to Intel.

>> XP market share is going down as Windows 7 increases, and not
>> primarily from Vista:
>
> because people are buying new machines. they are *not* migrating their
> xp boxes because it's such a bitch (see above).

I watched some of that CNET video.  They make the XP upgrade sound
harder than it is.  First they tell you to make a backup of your hard
drive.  This isn't required for this process.  Sure, it's nice to
do...FOR ANY OS, INCLUDING APPLE.  You can also upgrade to Vista and
then upgrade that to Windows 7.   Will take a few hours, but that's
inconsequential for something you do once every few years.
Personally even on OS X most recommend re-installing
applications...."just like the CNET XP video".

Steve
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 12:32 GMT
> >> I'm saying it was done intentionally, Windows 7 support wasn't delayed
> >> because it was a "low priority".
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Boot Camp, to support Windows 7, when Dell, HP, etc, supported it on
> launch day.

you don't know what the reason is. you can speculate all you want
though, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily correct.

> > compare that to apple where you can migrate from os x several versions
> > back, with one click.
>
> Can't migrate from PPC to Intel.

nonsense. of course you can.

> >> XP market share is going down as Windows 7 increases, and not
> >> primarily from Vista:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> harder than it is.  First they tell you to make a backup of your hard
> drive.  This isn't required for this process.  

it's *always* a good idea to make a backup prior to upgrades. just ask
t-mobile.

> Sure, it's nice to
> do...FOR ANY OS, INCLUDING APPLE.  You can also upgrade to Vista and
> then upgrade that to Windows 7.   Will take a few hours, but that's
> inconsequential for something you do once every few years.

upgrade to vista and *then* to windows 7???

you just proved my point that xp->win7 upgrading is a pain in the butt.

> Personally even on OS X most recommend re-installing
> applications...."just like the CNET XP video".

no. most recommend migration assistant.
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 21:20 GMT
>>>> I'm saying it was done intentionally, Windows 7 support wasn't delayed
>>>> because it was a "low priority".
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> you don't know what the reason is. you can speculate all you want
> though, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily correct.

So you don't agree with my conclusion?

>>> compare that to apple where you can migrate from os x several versions
>>> back, with one click.

>> Can't migrate from PPC to Intel.
>
> nonsense. of course you can.

Nope. Applications are incompatible. Have to reinstall them.

>> Sure, it's nice to
>> do...FOR ANY OS, INCLUDING APPLE.  You can also upgrade to Vista and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> you just proved my point that xp->win7 upgrading is a pain in the butt.

That's not a pain in the a.s,  did you know you don't have to sit
there while it's working?

Steve
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 21:29 GMT
> >>> compare that to apple where you can migrate from os x several versions
> >>> back, with one click.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Nope. Applications are incompatible. Have to reinstall them.

completely wrong. non-intel native apps will run in rosetta on an intel
mac.
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 23:17 GMT
>>>>> compare that to apple where you can migrate from os x several versions
>>>>> back, with one click.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> completely wrong. non-intel native apps will run in rosetta on an intel
> mac.

(1) Guess you don't use any AU music apps.  NONE of them work under
Rosetta.  Guess how I know?  :(

(2) PPC kexts will crash your Intel system.

(3) ACK!!!  :

"A Basic Guide for Migrating to Intel-Macs

If you are migrating a PowerPC system (G3, G4, or G5) to an Intel-Mac
be careful what you migrate. Keep in mind that some items that may get
transferred will not work on Intel machines and may end up causing
your computer's operating system to malfunction.

Rosetta supports "software that runs on the PowerPC G3 or G4 processor
that are built for Mac OS X". This excludes the items that are not
universal binaries or simply will not work in Rosetta:

Classic Environment, and subsequently any Mac OS 9 or earlier applications
Screensavers written for the PowerPC
System Preference add-ons
All Unsanity Haxies
Browser and other plug-ins
Contextual Menu Items
Applications which specifically require the PowerPC G5
Kernel extensions
Java applications with JNI (PowerPC) libraries

In addition to the above you could also have problems with migrated
cache files and/or cache files containing code that is incompatible.

If you migrate a user folder that contains any of these items, you may
find that your Intel-Mac is malfunctioning. It would be wise to take
care when migrating your systems from a PowerPC platform to an
Intel-Mac platform to assure that you do not migrate these
incompatible items.

If you have problems with applications not working, then completely
uninstall said application and reinstall it from scratch. Take great
care with Java applications and Java-based Peer-to-Peer applications.
Many Java apps will not work on Intel-Macs as they are currently
compiled. As of this time Limewire, Cabos, and Acquisition are
available as universal binaries. Do not install browser plug-ins such
as Flash or Shockwave from downloaded installers unless they are
universal binaries. The version of OS X installed on your Intel-Mac
comes with special compatible versions of Flash and Shockwave plug-ins
for use with your browser.

The same problem will exist for any hardware drivers such as mouse
software unless the drivers have been compiled as universal binaries.
For third-party mice the current choices are USB Overdrive or
SteerMouse. Contact the developer or manufacturer of your third-party
mouse software to find out when a universal binary version will be
available.

Also be careful with some backup utilities and third-party disk repair
utilities. Disk Warrior 4.1, TechTool Pro 4.6.1, SuperDuper 2.5, and
Drive Genius 2.0.2 work properly on Intel-Macs with Leopard. The same
caution may apply to the many "maintenance" utilities that have not
yet been converted to universal binaries. Leopard Cache Cleaner, Onyx,
TinkerTool System, and Cocktail are now compatible with Leopard."

Steve
nospam - 08 Feb 2010 00:08 GMT
> (1) Guess you don't use any AU music apps.  NONE of them work under
> Rosetta.  Guess how I know?  :(

just because a couple of apps fail doesn't mean *all* apps fail. some
apps fail going from tiger->leopard on the same hardware.

for the vast majority of users, migrating powerpc->intel works fine.

> (2) PPC kexts will crash your Intel system.

only if they're buggy, and it has nothing to do with migration.

i migrated a powerbook g4 with virtual pc (which has kexts) to a
macbook pro and there were no problems whatsoever. zip. after the
migration, i removed the kexts since there is no point in having them,
but nothing crashed prior to that.
Michelle Steiner - 08 Feb 2010 03:33 GMT
> > (1) Guess you don't use any AU music apps.  NONE of them work under
> > Rosetta.  Guess how I know?  :(
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> for the vast majority of users, migrating powerpc->intel works fine.

Yup; I have software that I was running under 10.0 that are still running
under 10.6.

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nospam - 08 Feb 2010 04:17 GMT
> Yup; I have software that I was running under 10.0 that are still running
> under 10.6.

what software is that?

there were a *lot* of changes from 10.0 to 10.1 and quite a bit broke.
it was a huge moving target until mid-10.2, and i'd be surprised if
something that old still worked at all now.
Fa-groon - 08 Feb 2010 17:20 GMT
>> Yup; I have software that I was running under 10.0 that are still running
>> under 10.6.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it was a huge moving target until mid-10.2, and i'd be surprised if
> something that old still worked at all now.

In my case it's MooDex, a freeware replacement for Cassidy and Greene's old
System 7 - System 9 free-form database called QuickDex. MooDex reads QuickDex
files and allows one to keep using and adding-to one's databases even though
C & G are out of business. Been using it since 10.0 ( I still have PPC Macs,
so I'm currently at 10.5.8).
Michelle Steiner - 08 Feb 2010 17:54 GMT
> > Yup; I have software that I was running under 10.0 that are still running
> > under 10.6.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it was a huge moving target until mid-10.2, and i'd be surprised if
> something that old still worked at all now.

I have a game that ran under 10.0 that is still running.  Super Daleks.  I
guess that I should have written "is still running" rather than "are still
running".

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Steve de Mena - 08 Feb 2010 10:54 GMT
>> (1) Guess you don't use any AU music apps.  NONE of them work under
>> Rosetta.  Guess how I know?  :(
>
> just because a couple of apps fail doesn't mean *all* apps fail. some
> apps fail going from tiger->leopard on the same hardware.

A copuple of apps?  We're talking about the music creation category
(hint: Apple is big in that industry)

> for the vast majority of users, migrating powerpc->intel works fine.
>
>> (2) PPC kexts will crash your Intel system.
>
> only if they're buggy, and it has nothing to do with migration.

Has nothing to do with migration?  How did they get to the new system?

> i migrated a powerbook g4 with virtual pc (which has kexts) to a
> macbook pro and there were no problems whatsoever. zip. after the
> migration, i removed the kexts since there is no point in having them,
> but nothing crashed prior to that.

<Steve noticed all of my other statements were snipped.  Figures>

Steve
Alan Baker - 08 Feb 2010 19:40 GMT
> >> (1) Guess you don't use any AU music apps.  NONE of them work under
> >> Rosetta.  Guess how I know?  :(
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> A copuple of apps?  We're talking about the music creation category
> (hint: Apple is big in that industry)

Hint: Apple remains big in that industry.

<snip>

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Michelle Steiner - 07 Feb 2010 18:20 GMT
> Doesn't really matter here kiddo.  We're in an internet newsgroup, not a
> court of law.  There is no reasonable explanation why it took Apple SIX
> MONTHS, with their limited range of hardware they support with Boot
> Camp, to support Windows 7, when Dell, HP, etc, supported it on launch
> day.

Because Dell, HP, etc., had direct support from Microsoft?

> Personally even on OS X most recommend re-installing
> applications...."just like the CNET XP video".

Who recommends that?  Apple certainly doesn't.  And, anecdotally speaking,
I never have.  Migration Assistant has never failed me.

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SMS - 06 Feb 2010 06:01 GMT
>> <snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You just don't get the level of Windows support that other hardware
> manufacturers provide (HP, Dell, etc.)

This is true, but not in the way you're implying. If you buy a retail
copy of Windows (for any machine, not just a Mac) your support comes
directly from Microsoft. If you buy a machine from HP or Dell you must
get support from those companies. Support directly from Microsoft is far
better for resolving any operating system related problems.
Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 12:02 GMT
>>> <snip>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> get support from those companies. Support directly from Microsoft is far
> better for resolving any operating system related problems.

Actually I meant Apple's support via drivers (Boot Camp).

Steve
Fa-groon - 06 Feb 2010 07:09 GMT
>> <snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Steve

Who (other than Windroids and the hopelessly clueless) would WANT Windows or
Windows support?
Richard B. Gilbert - 06 Feb 2010 15:12 GMT
>>> <snip>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Who (other than Windroids and the hopelessly clueless) would WANT Windows or
> Windows support?

Given that Windows has the VAST MAJORITY of the desktop market there
must be an awful lot of the "hopelessly clueless"!

I've used Apple Mac and Linux and I prefer Windows.  I keep a Linux
machine and a couple of Solaris machines because they can do some things
more easily and/or better than Windows.

Ten years ago there might have been some hope of replacing Windows but
nobody stepped up to the plate with a more acceptable product.
Fa-groon - 06 Feb 2010 16:39 GMT
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Given that Windows has the VAST MAJORITY of the desktop market there
> must be an awful lot of the "hopelessly clueless"!

Most individual computer buyers are just that, clueless. Don't forget that
the vast majority of Windows machines are corporate. Most corporations don't
ask an employee what platform they prefer. So, most people have no say. They
get Windows by default. Most people BUY personal Windows machines because
it's what they use at work, not because it's what they prefer. That's not to
say that these people would buy a Mac over Windows if they have a choice  
but, because most computer users ARE technically clueless, they buy for home
what they have at work. Most really don't know enough about any platform to
make an intelligent decision in that regard. It really never occurs to MOST
buyers that there might be something better or more suitable out there. They
are either afraid to learn something different, or are scared of
incompatibilities if and when they need to take work home or, more likely,
they've never given the matter any thought at all. Windows is the default
standard. Like most standards, that doesn't mean that it's the best choice.
In fact, if one looks at the history of defacto or even official standards,
More often than not the "winner" was not the best choice either technically
or practically. Some examples that come to mind are DOS vs Amiga, where Amiga
was clearly ahead of DOS (as was the original Mac OS), NTSC television over
alternatives like PAL or SECAM, The world-wide GE/Zenith Stereo FM system
over the technically superior Crosley system, VHS over Beta, HDTV (8VSB-the
chosen system, is technically inferior to the Sinclair/COFDM system), Blu-Ray
over HD-DVD, etc.

> I've used Apple Mac and Linux and I prefer Windows.  I keep a Linux
> machine and a couple of Solaris machines because they can do some things
> more easily and/or better than Windows.

That's your right of course, but don't pretend for a moment that you or
anyone else who posts here are in any way "average" users. Most of us are at
least somewhat computer savvy and have made our decisions based on more
criteria than "This is what I have at work". We're luckier than most.  The
great majority of computer buyers in the world don't have the expertise to
make a decision like that., so they just "go with the flow".

> Ten years ago there might have been some hope of replacing Windows but
> nobody stepped up to the plate with a more acceptable product.

Sure they have, but nobody can survive for long in the same room with an 800
pound gorilla, and that's what Microsoft is. Only Mac can compete at all, and
Linux exists because it's pretty much beneath Microsoft's radar and not seen
as a mainstream solution at all. Anyone else who tries to come up with a
viable alternative gets beaten up by MS in the marketplace because the latter
is so deeply entrenched. I'll tell you that in their day, both NeXT and BeOS
were FAR superior to either Windows or the then current Mac. The problem is
not the OSes per se. It's getting the major software developers to support
yet a third platform and getting PC vendors to offer it as well as Windows on
their machines. Microsoft won't allow the latter (as was shown when several
PC vendors tried to offer Linux as an alternative OS to Windows. IIRC,
Microsoft threatened to pull their OEM licenses), and without a preponderance
of desktops out there, software developers aren't about to commit resources
to developing for a computer platform that likely won't gather enough
momentum to stay around very long.

I have been hoping that Linux would gather enough momentum eventually to
displace Windows in the corporate world, but I'm afraid that window of
opportunity has closed with Linux remaining, largely, a geek's plaything.
Very capable, but without enough desktops to challenge Microsoft's hegemony,
it seems likely to remain a computer enthusiasts OS, with none of the
commercial software that supports the two major platforms available for it.

I also hoped that Mac's ability to run any or the three OSes out there (or
all of them simultaneously) would make the Mac a lot more competitive. With
any Intel Mac, one can run OSX, Windows, Linux, any of Linux' open source
applications (either pre-compiled or compiled by the user) all at the same
time. I find this feature very attractive, and while it has resulted in some
growth for the platform, it hasn't picked up nearly as much as I thought it
would.

I agree with you that it is unlikely that anything will seriously challenge
Microsoft's Windows hegemony any time soon. This is unfortunate because at
best, Windows is mediocre (and Mac OS is only a bit better in this regard).
As long as Windows dominates the market like they do and as long as they are
committed to supporting legacy software, the current UI paradigm is unlikely
to change. Software manufacturers develop for Windows and port to Mac (or any
other OS that might come around) and that keeps software locked into
Microsoft's vision of a computer interface. While Mac and Windows and Linux
differ in the details, they are all application-centric and this hasn't
changed in over 25 years. To move forward, Microsoft and ONLY Microsoft can
change the PC paradigm by abandoning this ridiculous and non-productive
legacy support that they cling to like ivy on a brick wall. There is no
reason for it. Don't believe me? Produce a document in the latest CS4
Photoshop or the latest MS Word's default format (docx), and try to open them
in say, Photoshop 3 or Word 6. YOU CAN"T!  That's why legacy support is so
worthless. It's just holding computing back. As long as MS has this policy,
the major software developers aren't going to stray from MS' interface
requirements, which means that Apple can't can't move the Mac in any radical
new directions either. This is why I believe that Apple is going in another
direction with the iPad. Freed from having to share cross-platform apps
between the Mac and Windows, the iPad is an opportunity to explore another
direction with regard to the user/computer interface. Whether or not this
direction will bear fruit, only time will tell.
Larry - 07 Feb 2010 02:38 GMT
> I also hoped that Mac's ability to run any or the three OSes out there (or
> all of them simultaneously) would make the Mac a lot more competitive. With
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> growth for the platform, it hasn't picked up nearly as much as I thought it
> would.

Why has Mac failed after all these years of really nice computers.

A - Greed.  Snobbery only sells to the small sector of humanity that
doesn't care what anything costs.  So, Apple charges exhorbitant prices
for that sector and spends a LOT of that money on breeding YOU the very
loyal fan base that will sit in a lawn chair in a huge line in the
freezing cold for half a day...just to see the next exhorbitantly priced
gadget....

B - Proprietary.  Since the Apple 1, Jobs and Company have done
everything in their power to PREVENT anyone else from making a profit
off their proprietary, controlled OS.  It's not as bad now, but it sure
was THEN.  Gates, on the other hand, wasn't as interested in producing
ALL the software for DOS.  He opened up the system, for really the first
time in computer history, to anyone who wanted to tinker around and
write software for it.  The Freeware/Shareware phenomenon sold DOS, not
Bill Gates.  Crazy programmers more interested in bragging rights for a
hobby than being a billionaire suddenly had this cheap OS on all these
machines that they could play with from their basements.  Early on, just
finding their toys was a problem until places like tucows.com and other
repositories sprung up where they could leave everyone a copyable, free-
for-the-asking, later very simple to install software that did just
about anything you could dream of on the cheap little machine and its
relatively open OS.

http://www.tucows.com/

I remember when this repository had thousands and thousands of DOS and
WINDOWS sharewares/freewares, tested by a worldwide group of people who
like to break things and improve them....and there was no MAC tab or any
of the others....only WINDOWS/DOS.  The whole mentality of "Why buy that
thing that won't run any of the free software on the bulletin boards?"
nearly killed Apple Computer and their hard-as-stone corporate
mentality.  Many of us old XP users still remember it, too.  

Tucows' old freeware repository, now that they are a profit-making corp,
is:
http://www.butterscotch.com/free-software-search.html
enter word processors and click the MAC linker.  There are 11 free word
processors.  NONE of them are MAC programs, even in 2010!  They are all
PORTED from Linux, which didn't exist in the old days, and Windows.  Mac
users have been waiting for software porting since the Apple 1/IIe.  If
there was no porting, there'd be no freeware.

There are TWO Mac free music players.  Why?  Itunes?  The Mac OEM music
player is so fantastic noone wants another option?  There are 48 Windows
music players listed that do some really great things, not ported to
Mac.  

It wasn't too long ago when Mac users who wanted to play:
http://www.tucows.com/preview/221414?q=music+player
simply couldn't and had to sit back and take what apple offered, no
matter how neat the world thought Express Scribe Transcription Player
4.30 was.  It was freeware only on Windows.

Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
iPad.  INcompatiblity with non-Apple-revenue-generating freeware....and
JAILBREAKING, which I'm going to bet you is damned near impossible with
the CODE hard programmed into this new PROPRIETARY CPU to stop it.  Jobs
is wisening up.....and his same old, proprietary self.

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Larry

Alan Baker - 07 Feb 2010 02:49 GMT
> > I also hoped that Mac's ability to run any or the three OSes out there
> (or
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> freezing cold for half a day...just to see the next exhorbitantly priced
> gadget....

Bullshit. Apple sells things that some people find they prefer over the
less expensive options.

When I'm considering the purchase of something I intend to use for 3 - 5
years, more money up front has to be looked at accordingly.

> B - Proprietary.  Since the Apple 1, Jobs and Company have done
> everything in their power to PREVENT anyone else from making a profit
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> about anything you could dream of on the cheap little machine and its
> relatively open OS.

This is, of course, nonsense. Nonsense in that Apple hasn't done
anything differently than any other company trying to turn a profit.

Gates did not "open the system". In fact, the evidence points heavily to
Microsoft having deliberately tried to use their OS to give their own
applications an edge.

> http://www.tucows.com/
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> nearly killed Apple Computer and their hard-as-stone corporate
> mentality.  Many of us old XP users still remember it, too.  

For the Mac, there's been versiontracker.com for a long time...

> Tucows' old freeware repository, now that they are a profit-making corp,
> is:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> users have been waiting for software porting since the Apple 1/IIe.  If
> there was no porting, there'd be no freeware.

<http://www.versiontracker.com/php/qs.php?mode=basic&action=search&str=wo
rd+processor&srchArea=macosx&submit=Go>

> There are TWO Mac free music players.  Why?  Itunes?  The Mac OEM music
> player is so fantastic noone wants another option?  There are 48 Windows
> music players listed that do some really great things, not ported to
> Mac.  

<http://www.versiontracker.com/php/qs.php?mode=basic&action=search&str=mp
3+player&srchArea=macosx%7Cmacosx-all&submit=Go>

> It wasn't too long ago when Mac users who wanted to play:
> http://www.tucows.com/preview/221414?q=music+player
> simply couldn't and had to sit back and take what apple offered, no
> matter how neat the world thought Express Scribe Transcription Player
> 4.30 was.  It was freeware only on Windows.

Learning where to look for Mac shareware and freeware would help to make
you look a little less idiotic.

> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
> iPad.  INcompatiblity with non-Apple-revenue-generating freeware....and
> JAILBREAKING, which I'm going to bet you is damned near impossible with
> the CODE hard programmed into this new PROPRIETARY CPU to stop it.  Jobs
> is wisening up.....and his same old, proprietary self.

I'll take that bet.

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Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

nospam - 07 Feb 2010 03:05 GMT
> Why has Mac failed after all these years of really nice computers.

it hasn't failed. sales are outpacing the market.

> A - Greed.  Snobbery only sells to the small sector of humanity that
> doesn't care what anything costs.  So, Apple charges exhorbitant prices
> for that sector and spends a LOT of that money on breeding YOU the very
> loyal fan base that will sit in a lawn chair in a huge line in the
> freezing cold for half a day...just to see the next exhorbitantly priced
> gadget....

prices are comparable with similar spec hardware.

> B - Proprietary.  Since the Apple 1, Jobs and Company have done
> everything in their power to PREVENT anyone else from making a profit
> off their proprietary, controlled OS.

nonsense. it's far more open than microsoft. a lot of os x is open
source. apple uses industry standards not proprietary crap like wmv,
active-x, internet explorer extensions, etc.

> There are TWO Mac free music players.  Why?  Itunes?  The Mac OEM music
> player is so fantastic noone wants another option?  There are 48 Windows
> music players listed that do some really great things, not ported to
> Mac.  

there's far more than two.

> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
> iPad.

it's a standard cortex a9 reference design. all apple did was do a
system on a chip. you really are an idiot.
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 07:48 GMT
>> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
>> iPad.
>
> it's a standard cortex a9 reference design. all apple did was do a
> system on a chip. you really are an idiot.

Wow, you're giving up more inside information.  I must assume then
that you work on the iPad development team, as no one else has this
information.

Steve
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 12:32 GMT
> >> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
> >> iPad.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that you work on the iPad development team, as no one else has this
> information.

that's right. nobody else but you and me.

oh, and all of the readers of engadget:

<http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/28/apples-a4-is-an-arm-based-system-on-
a-chip-a-la-tegra-2/>

and all of the readers of appleinsider too:

<http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/01/28/ipads_custom_apple_a4_pro
cessor_includes_arm_based_cpu_gpu.html>
Dennis Ferguson - 07 Feb 2010 12:45 GMT
>> >> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
>> >> iPad.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
><http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/01/28/ipads_custom_apple_a4_pro
> cessor_includes_arm_based_cpu_gpu.html>

I think, though, that those reports are just repeating what was
written the day before in this one:

<http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2010/1/27/apple-a4-soc-unveiled---its-an-ar
m-cpu-and-the-gpu!.aspx
>

It is worth reading the postscript appended to the bottom.

Dennis Ferguson
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 21:22 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

nospam, here is that addendum:

Update #1, January 28, 2010 22:22 GMT/UTC - Following the request for
comments, we were incline to update the story. First of all, we do not
have concrete information about the number of cores inside the Apple
A4 "CPU that it isn't" i.e. A4 SOC. We were told that the ARM licensed
its CPU and GPU technology to Apple. That's it. Out of that
technology, Cortex-A9 is intended for manufacturing in advanced
manufacturing process such as 45nm, 40nm, 28nm and so on, while
Cortex-A8 doesn't have advanced video processing capabilities that
Cortex-A9 has. As the time progresses, we'll know more about what LEGO
brick components did Apple use to create the A4. One thing is certain
- it uses ARM IP throughout the silicon. Don't shoot the messenger.

Your welcome.

Steve
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 21:18 GMT
>>>> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
>>>> iPad.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> <http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/28/apples-a4-is-an-arm-based-system-on-
> a-chip-a-la-tegra-2/>

"Apple's A4 chip is ARM Cortex A9 with an ARM Mali GPU?"

The question mark at the end is NOT mine.

"we're hearing that it is in fact a system-on-a-chip driven by a
Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU "identical" to the one found inside NVIDIA's Tegra 2"

"We're hearing".  Not a fact, as you presented it.

> and all of the readers of appleinsider too:
>
> <http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/01/28/ipads_custom_apple_a4_pro
> cessor_includes_arm_based_cpu_gpu.html>

"According to Bright Side of News, the Apple A4 is based mostly on
intellectual property from ARM reference designs..."

Rumor.

"I don't see any empirical data to back up the idea that Apple didn't
modify the processor or GPU."

Comment on the post on AppleInsider.

"Fact check please? Just because BSN didn't bother to be precise
doesn't mean you should. Nvidia's Tegra uses ARM11 cores (however,
Tegra 2 uses dual Cortex A9s) and the Snapdragon isn't powered by A9
either."

Another comment from AppleInsider.

Steve
Tim Adams - 07 Feb 2010 14:15 GMT
> >> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
> >> iPad.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that you work on the iPad development team, as no one else has this
> information.

Funny how an article posted a week or so ago last week detailed that same
information isn't it.

http://www.osnews.com/story/22805/Apple_s_A4_ARM_CPU_GPU

> Steve

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you are flamed because you are a hideous troll and keep disrupting
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ZnU - 07 Feb 2010 15:56 GMT
In article
<teadams$2$0$0$3-6C3DD0.09155707022010@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,

> > >> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
> > >> iPad.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story/22805/Apple_s_A4_ARM_CPU_GPU

It has been pointed out that this article is quite possibly wrong about
what graphics hardware is being used. The whole thing looks more like
informed speculation than actual first-hand information. That Apple is
using some sort of Cortex A9 core is likely to be true, but which
variant, whether they're using PowerVR, Mali or something else for
graphics, and what other functionality might be on the processor die,
nobody really knows at this point.

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 21:23 GMT
>>>> Back on topic, I think there's two reasons for the PROPRIETARY CPU in
>>>> iPad.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>> Steve

Tim,

Yes, but they didn't state it as FACT.  And see the related posts.

Do you guys know the difference between fact and conjecture?

Steve
SMS - 07 Feb 2010 04:29 GMT
> B - Proprietary.  Since the Apple 1, Jobs and Company have done
> everything in their power to PREVENT anyone else from making a profit
> off their proprietary, controlled OS.

That is not true. The Apple I and Apple II were open architecture. There
were even CP/M cards for the Apple II. A lot of companies made money
selling add-on cards for the Apple II. I worked for one that sold $395
network cards for the Apple II back in 1980. It was the first Mac that
was closed, even opening the case required a special extra long
screwdriver. Even though this was annoying, there were good reasons for
the closed architecture.
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 05:11 GMT
> It was the first Mac that
> was closed, even opening the case required a special extra long
> screwdriver.

standard torx

> Even though this was annoying, there were good reasons for
> the closed architecture.

but everything about it was thoroughly documented. writing software and
modifying the operating system was very easy. it was *anything* but
closed.
SMS - 07 Feb 2010 20:06 GMT
>> It was the first Mac that
>> was closed, even opening the case required a special extra long
>> screwdriver.
>
> standard torx

The problem wasn't the bit, it was that you needed a screwdriver with a
very long shaft and most Torx screwdrivers don't have that.

The instructions from Apple for opening the Mac Mini case were quite
amusing. Someone at work bought one right when it came out and of course
wanted to open it. The official instructions told you to use a putty knife.
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 20:25 GMT
> > standard torx
>
> The problem wasn't the bit, it was that you needed a screwdriver with a
> very long shaft and most Torx screwdrivers don't have that.

auto parts stores had them, among other places. it was not a big deal.
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 21:24 GMT
>>> It was the first Mac that was closed, even opening the case required
>>> a special extra long screwdriver.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> amusing. Someone at work bought one right when it came out and of course
> wanted to open it. The official instructions told you to use a putty knife.

Yes, I used a putty knife to open mine.  Until it overheated for the
2nd time (out of warranty) and I threw it away.

Steve
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 21:31 GMT
> Yes, I used a putty knife to open mine.  Until it overheated for the
> 2nd time (out of warranty) and I threw it away.

you probably didn't hook up the fan when you put it back together. a
common mistake.
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 23:19 GMT
>> Yes, I used a putty knife to open mine.  Until it overheated for the
>> 2nd time (out of warranty) and I threw it away.
>
> you probably didn't hook up the fan when you put it back together. a
> common mistake.

The last person to open it was Apple, when replacing a fried system
board.  I only opened it to upgrade the memory and to try and
troubleshoot the issue that Apple had to end up fixing.

Steve
Your Name - 08 Feb 2010 00:18 GMT
> >> It was the first Mac that
> >> was closed, even opening the case required a special extra long
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> amusing. Someone at work bought one right when it came out and of course
> wanted to open it. The official instructions told you to use a putty knife.

I'm not sure, but the OFFICIAL instructions probably tell you to take it
to an authorised Apple service centre.  :-)
Your Name - 07 Feb 2010 20:17 GMT
In article <4b6e4183$0$1593$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, SMS
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Even though this was annoying, there were good reasons for
> the closed architecture.

One of those reasons was because the screens were CRT tubes, which are
dangerous and should never be opened by John & Jill "Handyman". The first
iMacs were similarly "closed" due to this same reason.
Larry - 07 Feb 2010 02:46 GMT
Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C792DB35000523CCF01846D8
@news.giganews.com:

> Freed from having to share cross-platform apps
> between the Mac and Windows, the iPad is an opportunity to explore another
> direction with regard to the user/computer interface. Whether or not this
> direction will bear fruit, only time will tell.

iPad isn't new.  WebTV failed because it didn't run what people wanted,
either.  Ipad is just the portable equivalent of WebTV, an APPLIANCE for
the ignorant masses that have $600 extra in a depression.  None of the
software on Tucows or download.com will run in iPad...zero.  Total
incompatibility nearly put Apple into bankruptcy in the past.  They can do
it again touting this appliance as a computer, all tied up to a Box Office
app store of only Apple software, like the old days Steve dreams of.

People are used to totally incompatible sellphones controlled by the
companies.  This won't wash with the LAPTOPS, as Apple found out with the
Newton.

Remember the Newton?  How soon we forget in the noise of Applesauce
Advertising.  Remember how Quicktime was going to REVOLUTIONIZE the way we
watched video on the internet?....with PROPRIETARY software from Apple?

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

Alan Baker - 07 Feb 2010 02:52 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C792DB35000523CCF01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> it again touting this appliance as a computer, all tied up to a Box Office
> app store of only Apple software, like the old days Steve dreams of.

None of what's on the App Store will run on Windows or Linux... ...zero.

> People are used to totally incompatible sellphones controlled by the
> companies.  This won't wash with the LAPTOPS, as Apple found out with the
> Newton.

What was there for the Newton to be compatible with?

> Remember the Newton?  How soon we forget in the noise of Applesauce
> Advertising.  Remember how Quicktime was going to REVOLUTIONIZE the way we
> watched video on the internet?....with PROPRIETARY software from Apple?

Quicktime has done just that.

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Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

nospam - 07 Feb 2010 03:07 GMT
> None of the
> software on Tucows or download.com will run in iPad...zero.

who the f.ck cares. there are 140,000 apps on the apps store that
*will* run on it, many of which are free.

> Total
> incompatibility nearly put Apple into bankruptcy in the past.

nonsense.

> People are used to totally incompatible sellphones controlled by the
> companies.  This won't wash with the LAPTOPS, as Apple found out with the
> Newton.

the newton was not a laptop, nor is the ipad.

> Remember the Newton?  How soon we forget in the noise of Applesauce
> Advertising.  Remember how Quicktime was going to REVOLUTIONIZE the way we
> watched video on the internet?

it did. microsoft stole part of it for wmv and got caught too.
Michelle Steiner - 07 Feb 2010 06:13 GMT
> > None of the software on Tucows or download.com will run in
> > iPad...zero.
>
> who the f.ck cares. there are 140,000 apps on the apps store that *will*
> run on it, many of which are free.

Larry is probably pissed off that gasoline engines can't run on Diesel
fuel, and vice versa.

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nospam - 07 Feb 2010 06:16 GMT
> Larry is probably pissed off that gasoline engines can't run on Diesel
> fuel, and vice versa.

i think he's sniffed one of those a little too much. maybe both.
Steve de Mena - 07 Feb 2010 07:49 GMT
>> None of the
>> software on Tucows or download.com will run in iPad...zero.
>
> who the f.ck cares. there are 140,000 apps on the apps store that
> *will* run on it, many of which are free.

And MANY MANY are either worthless, duplicate 100 other iPhone apps,
are actually just information wrapped up in an "application", etc. etc.

Steve
nospam - 07 Feb 2010 12:32 GMT
> >> None of the
> >> software on Tucows or download.com will run in iPad...zero.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> And MANY MANY are either worthless, duplicate 100 other iPhone apps,
> are actually just information wrapped up in an "application", etc. etc.

yea and? there are many worthless apps on tucows.
ZnU - 07 Feb 2010 15:51 GMT
> >> None of the
> >> software on Tucows or download.com will run in iPad...zero.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> And MANY MANY are either worthless, duplicate 100 other iPhone apps,
> are actually just information wrapped up in an "application", etc. etc.

90% of everything is crap, sure. This applies to apps on Download.com
and everywhere else as well.

There are also a lot of really, really good iPhone apps. Leveraging the
existing Mac developer base onto the iPhone got Apple a lot of
world-class developers who already basically knew the underlying
technologies and who care deeply about user experience.

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

ZnU - 07 Feb 2010 04:25 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C792DB35000523CCF01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the ignorant masses that have $600 extra in a depression.  None of the
> software on Tucows or download.com will run in iPad...zero.

And that's precisely the reason why, a few months ago, I was arguing
that appliance-like Linux/ARM netbooks probably weren't going to be a
big success anytime soon.

The difference is that Apple has demonstrated over the last couple of
years that they're capable of launching a new platform and securing
widespread third-party developer support for it.

[snip]

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anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes

Steve de Mena - 06 Feb 2010 02:02 GMT
>>>> And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of
>>>> the software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Besides, who would want to use Access when they have Filemaker Pro
> available?

Because you are sharing or dealing with people who have Access.

Steve
(PeteCresswell) - 06 Feb 2010 20:51 GMT
Per Michelle Steiner:
>Besides, who would want to use Access when they have Filemaker Pro
>available?

I've done a few apps using FileMaker Pro and agree that it's
pretty slick.  It's also the only cross-platform file-based DB
I've seen and it's totally seamless in that respect: just plug
and play across Macs and PCs.

Having said that, FM development is limited compared to Access
and functionality gets hidden behind parameters-driven queries
and processes - as opposed to VBA code being right out there
where it can be seen.
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PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) - 05 Feb 2010 21:36 GMT
Per Per Rønne:
>The Mac MS Office is still missing some applications. In particular
>Access and Project. Well, Project used to be a Mac application too, back
>in the days of MacOS Classic.

This is just a guess, but I'd venture that the DotNet framework
and development environment do not include MacIntosh - either for
development or for built applications.

If that is true, that would be a pretty big deal the corporate IT
departments I know of.
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Dennis Ferguson - 05 Feb 2010 06:42 GMT
> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in news:QM6dnZs_7PDl1
> _bWnZ2dnUVZ_v1i4p2d@giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> And, even now, Mac owners are STILL waiting for the "Mac Version" of the
> software to be written, while the Windows users have had it for years.

I don't know.  Mine runs Word, Excel and Powerpoint, and Matlab,
and Indesign.  I'm not waiting for anything else in particular in
the way of shrink-wrapped software.

> ....The same is true for Linux, of course, but at least Linux has its
> dedicated hacker base who usually come out with their own brand of the
> software which is usually far superior to the original Win version,
> anyways.

The funny thing is that I find most Linux software, or Unix software
in general, runs just fine on the Mac.  You just need to recompile it.
Sometimes things which make extensive use of some UI libraries become
a little tedious because of the amount of library code you need to
build to support it, but anything which can run on top a standard X
server can generally be made to work and anything which doesn't
use a GUI, or relies on generic X services, is a snap.  The latter
describes pretty much all of what I care about.

From my point of view the Mac is a generic Unix box which has a pretty
UI which I don't have to maintain, and which runs some Microsoft
Office applications, which more or less satisfies the only need for
Microsoft software I ever had.  I wasn't interested in Macs at all
before OSX but the current system matches my needs in a way which
Windows absolutely never could, and without the labour I seemed to
have to spend maintaining my own work environment on Unix boxes.  For
me it is worth the cost of the limited selection of hardware.

Then again, while I probably don't qualify as an "IT Professional",
I've been a Unix user for 30 years and have managed to make a decent
living having a good time building stuff and writing software for, or
based on, Unix to support that stuff for about 25 of those years.  I'm
too old to change, but too lazy to try to maintain less well supported
software.  The Mac aligns pretty well with my needs.

It really does depend on what you want to do with the machine, but
from my point of view Macs are "appliances" only if all you want is
an appliance.

Dennis Ferguson
Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 22:33 GMT
> The reasons I saw that my IT department (large electric utility
> on the East Coast of the USA) didn't like Macs were:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 2) Development: An all-PC environment means only having to
>    develop/deploy for that one platform.

And if it had been an all-Mac environment, those two items would still hold
true, but there would have been less maintenance required.

> 3) Support:  At the time, IBM was all about corporate-level
>    support and Apple wasn't having any of it.

At the time.  No longer true today (and I don't mean because IBM is out of
the PC business).

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Per Rønne - 05 Feb 2010 04:49 GMT
> > 3) Support:  At the time, IBM was all about corporate-level
> >    support and Apple wasn't having any of it.
>
> At the time.  No longer true today (and I don't mean because IBM is out of
> the PC business).

Well, they've sold their PC division to the Chinese. Lenovo ...
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Alan Baker - 04 Feb 2010 21:06 GMT
> >>> Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with
> >>> fanbois.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> "Graphic Arts" people love the Mac.  Nobody else, AFAICT, gives a sh.t!

Actually, you find Macs in larger numbers wherever people value their
time more highly.

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Vancouver, British Columbia
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Your Name - 05 Feb 2010 05:32 GMT
> > >>> Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with
> > >>> fanbois.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Actually, you find Macs in larger numbers wherever people value their
> time more highly.

Most people who do make the switch to Mac say they will never go back to
Windoze.

Personally I've always hated Windoze with all it's idiocies,
incompatibilities, inconsistencies, bugs and malware. I simply can't be
bothered wasting time trying to sort that mess out every few of days.
Windoze 7 may be the best version yet, but it's still just an inferior copy
of the Mac OS.
Fa-groon - 04 Feb 2010 21:22 GMT
>>>> Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with
>>>> fanbois.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> "Graphic Arts" people love the Mac.  Nobody else, AFAICT, gives a sh.t!

Video production people love the Mac, audio recording people love the Mac and
in fact, anybody who does anything really creative, prefers the Mac. It is
true that people using PCs to do the more mundane tasks such as building
databases, writing reports, doing accounting and making spreadsheets don't
give a sh.t. I think that alone speaks volumes.
Larry - 04 Feb 2010 22:56 GMT
Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C7907AB1000E6ED9F01846D8
@news.giganews.com:

> Video production people love the Mac, audio recording people love the Mac and
> in fact, anybody who does anything really creative, prefers the Mac. It is
> true that people using PCs to do the more mundane tasks such as building
> databases, writing reports, doing accounting and making spreadsheets don't
> give a sh.t. I think that alone speaks volumes.

People like photographers are not interested in computers and are looking
for an APPLIANCE that does what they want without them having to learn
anything about computers and what's under the lid, sort of like your
girlfriend isn't interested in knowing what makes the car go, just wants it
to drive her from A to B.

Mac has done this very well, even to the point where the company doesn't
want you to open the hood and tinker with the fuel injection, even if you
want to.

Macs ARE great appliances.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

nospam - 04 Feb 2010 23:00 GMT
> Macs ARE great appliances.

holy sh.t.

you said something complimentary about a mac? the other day you
apologized for being wrong?

is the world ending tomorrow or something?
Larry - 04 Feb 2010 23:02 GMT
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:040220101500438569%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

>> Macs ARE great appliances.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> is the world ending tomorrow or something?

Ipad has the potential of being a great appliance, too, but not with that
shitty hobbled up iPhone OS it will never be.

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"iPad is to computing what Etch-A-Sketch is to art!"

Larry

nospam - 04 Feb 2010 23:04 GMT
> >> Macs ARE great appliances.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Ipad has the potential of being a great appliance, too,

whoa. who hacked larry's account?

> but not with that
> shitty hobbled up iPhone OS it will never be.

ok. that's more like it.
Fa-groon - 04 Feb 2010 23:30 GMT
> Fa-groon <fa-groon@mad.com> wrote in news:0001HW.C7907AB1000E6ED9F01846D8
> @news.giganews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Macs ARE great appliances.

Which is exactly what a computer SHOULD be. And from the number of times that
I have to talk my non-technical friends through even the most mundane of
tasks on the Mac, I'd say that even it's not appliance-like ENOUGH.
Larry - 05 Feb 2010 04:59 GMT
> Which is exactly what a computer SHOULD be. And from the number of times that
> I have to talk my non-technical friends through even the most mundane of
> tasks on the Mac, I'd say that even it's not appliance-like ENOUGH.

Appliance operation is just fine for many, just like not all drivers
love to tinker with car engines.  AND, at one time, Mac had it all over
Windows 3.1 and Windows 98/ME for appliance ease.

But, beginning with XP, the most popular operating system on the planet
(STILL), that is no longer the case.  The biggest difference between
them, now, is the Windows owner is not confronted with the hood of his
computer NOT being welded shut and is free to tinker around under it and
really screw things up.  When I find something I bought sealed up so I
can't take it apart and play inside, I get very angry.  It's a freedom-
to-choose thing.  It's also why I choose for many things to boot Ubuntu
Linux, instead of WinXP and chose Ubuntu for the basis of The Beast, a
Dell Poweredge 2600 server computer I bought from a thrift shop for the
amazing sum of $5.99US, as-is.  The Beast had Windows Server 2003 on it,
but no more.  It's the "Linux Box", just for fun, a high powered Veyron
sports car of a computer with dual 3.2Ghz Xeon processors sitting under
huge heat-pipe cooling towers with impressive-sounding 12 fans.  Its six
15,000 RPM SCSI drives provide a very smooth environment as the
entertainment center, now plugged digitally into a new Samsung
SyncMaster monster from its new video card and the 15" floor speakers
that shake the house at the appropriate moments under 480 watts/channel.

I suppose owning an appliance, like Apple sells, is great for some
people not interested in computing, only what computing can do for them
from someone else.  Hell, Mac won't even dim the lights winding up the
hard drive like The Beast does....(c;]

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Larry

nospam - 05 Feb 2010 05:27 GMT
> Appliance operation is just fine for many, just like not all drivers
> love to tinker with car engines.

very few people care about tinkering with car engines and even those
people who used to be backyard mechanics don't bother anymore. working
on cars these days is a *lot* more complex and often requires a lot of
fancy (and expensive) equipment.
Fa-groon - 05 Feb 2010 08:38 GMT
>> Which is exactly what a computer SHOULD be. And from the number of
> times that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> love to tinker with car engines.  AND, at one time, Mac had it all over
> Windows 3.1 and Windows 98/ME for appliance ease.

It still does.

> But, beginning with XP, the most popular operating system on the planet
> (STILL), that is no longer the case.

Balderdash! XP is just NT warmed-over with most of NT's problems intact. It's
still arcane, difficult to use and disruptive to anyone but a fanboi's
workflow.
Michelle Steiner - 05 Feb 2010 00:49 GMT
> Macs ARE great appliances.

Right, and ain't that grand?

And for those who want to tinker under the lid, there's the Mac Pro.

BTW, just about all laptops and netbooks are also appliances, but not
nearly as sophisticated as MacBooks and MacBook Pros.

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Larry - 05 Feb 2010 05:01 GMT
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in news:michelle-
5CDB49.17490404022010@nothing.attdns.com:

> BTW, just about all laptops and netbooks are also appliances, but not
> nearly as sophisticated as MacBooks and MacBook Pros.

Not here.  Even my netbook has an added touchkit screen and dual-boots
Ubuntu and XP for different reasons.  XP netbooks aren't hobbled up in any
way, just like XP desktops.

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Larry

Juergen Lorenz Simon - 08 Feb 2010 14:18 GMT
Troll sense tingling

> "Graphic Arts" people love the Mac.  Nobody else, AFAICT, gives a sh.t!
Michelle Steiner - 04 Feb 2010 15:59 GMT
> > > Again with the black and white?  I don't equate supporters with
> > > fanbois.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If you've somehow felt included in any "fanboi" comments I've made, I'm
> not sure if that's more a reflection on me or you!

You made it abundantly clear that you consider anyone whoever said anything
supportive of Apple to be a fanboi.  Stop being disingenuous.

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Per Rønne - 01 Feb 2010 23:19 GMT
> -Minimize data usage on the 3G network, as a condition of receiving
> preferential 3G data pricing (this included limiting web browsing
> capability by not allowing Flash or Java, not including a camera, and
> not allowing tethering). However all this may change once the 3G and
> 4G networks are able to handle the data load (and they'll change for
> the iPhone as well).

The iPhone is already able to thether - but of course your carrier has
to accept it. Outside the US the 3G networks have no problems handling
the data load.

I talked with a guy from my carrier - in his company they were quite
sure tethering through bluetooth would be possible. But of course not
sure.

> A camera in a future model is virtual certainty.

In the front, I guess. Like on MacBook, iMac and the new 24" Apple
Cinema Display.
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http://www.RQNNE.dk
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Jim Mason - 02 Feb 2010 08:55 GMT
> > -Minimize data usage on the 3G network, as a condition of receiving
> > preferential 3G data pricing (this included limiting web browsing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to accept it. Outside the US the 3G networks have no problems handling
> the data load.

O2 in the UK appear to contradict that opinion.
Per Rønne - 02 Feb 2010 11:12 GMT
> > > -Minimize data usage on the 3G network, as a condition of receiving
> > > preferential 3G data pricing (this included limiting web browsing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> O2 in the UK appear to contradict that opinion.

OK, problems in the UK too. I guess there will be problems in Zimbabwe
and Bulgaria also ...
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Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk
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Jim Mason - 02 Feb 2010 11:25 GMT
> > > > -Minimize data usage on the 3G network, as a condition of receiving
> > > > preferential 3G data pricing (this included limiting web browsing
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> OK, problems in the UK too. I guess there will be problems in Zimbabwe
> and Bulgaria also ...

O2 allow it but at a heavy premium ON TOP of your £34 or £45 a month
unlimited data Iphone package.

http://shop.o2.co.uk/update/internet.html
Per Rønne - 02 Feb 2010 20:04 GMT
> O2 allow it but at a heavy premium ON TOP of your £34 or £45 a month
> unlimited data Iphone package.

My carrier 'allows' it as part of my company's standard iPhone package
at £49 a month which does also include free sms and up to ten hours of
telephone conversation a month. More wil cost 7 pence a minute.
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Dennis Ferguson - 03 Feb 2010 02:04 GMT
>> O2 allow it but at a heavy premium ON TOP of your £34 or £45 a month
>> unlimited data Iphone package.
>
> My carrier 'allows' it as part of my company's standard iPhone package
> at £49 a month which does also include free sms and up to ten hours of
> telephone conversation a month. More wil cost 7 pence a minute.

The carrier 3 in the UK does have prepaid tethering plans at £10 for
3 GB and £15 for 7 GB, but that's another carrier which doesn't (yet)
sell the iPhone so the iPhone won't tether on it.

Dennis Ferguson
Per Rønne - 03 Feb 2010 05:19 GMT
> >> O2 allow it but at a heavy premium ON TOP of your £34 or £45 a month
> >> unlimited data Iphone package.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 3 GB and £15 for 7 GB, but that's another carrier which doesn't (yet)
> sell the iPhone so the iPhone won't tether on it.

My carrier is excactly 3, excactly the same carrier as your 3 [at least
they use the same 3 logo on www.3.dk and www.three.co.uk]. But of course
acting on two different markets.

We haven't got data tethering plans, just data plans. Whether you use it
from a smartphone, a laptop og from a 3G router doesn't really matter.

The only reason for not yet supporting 3G on iPad is that the company
doesn't have micro SIM cards - yet. I guess they will have it in less
than three months.
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David Moyer - 02 Feb 2010 01:26 GMT
that list is 100% bogus
el KaBong - 02 Feb 2010 01:32 GMT
-No multi-tasking of 3rd party applications (the reasons for this were
to not impact performance, battery life, and 3G data usage, i.e. they
don’t want people streaming online radio stations in the background
the whole day). No surprise considering the iPhone has the same
restriction.

http://www.pandora.com/on-the-iphone
Per Rønne - 02 Feb 2010 05:49 GMT
> -No multi-tasking of 3rd party applications (the reasons for this were
> to not impact performance, battery life, and 3G data usage, i.e. they
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://www.pandora.com/on-the-iphone 

It says nothing about it being able to run in the background in iPhones.
Well, of course we all know it will be able if it is jailbroken but that
doesn't really matter in this discussion.
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Per Erik Rønne
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Elmo P. Shagnasty - 02 Feb 2010 02:51 GMT
In article
<640d11a4-03ea-4f2e-b96a-c790004cba69@s36g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,

> The inevitable Apple bashing over the iPad¹s design specifications
> began minutes after it was announced, and most of it was uniformed
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for every single design decision made by Apple, even though some of
> the decisions make some people very unhappy.

Decisions can't be "valid" or "not valid".  They were simply decisions.

You are making fanboi excuses for this box.

BTW, it's really an iPod.
-hh - 02 Feb 2010 03:25 GMT
> There’s been a lot of talk recently about the Apple iPad.

And here's some more of it.

> I thought
> that I’d explain to everyone the reasons for the iPad’s design
> issues.  The design criteria for the iPad were laid out by a select
> marketing team, including “he who must not be named.” There was very
> little room for compromise.  There were completely obvious design
> criteria, and some that were not so obvious.

I thought that I'd explain to everyone that the reasons for providing
proper citations in journalistic endeavors.

> Some of the criteria were:

...unsubstantiated.   As such, it hardly merits any critiquing of
them, since we don't really know if they truly were from the actual
design team, or merely YA piece of fiction.   Regardless of how much
sense they may or may not appear to have.

> [deleted]

FWIW, this list would have been far more credible had it been posted a
day or three before the unveiling.   Afterall, Hindsight is 20/20 ...
just ask the Illuminati.

> The inevitable Apple bashing over the iPad’s design specifications
> began minutes after it was announced, and most of it was uniformed
> drivel from those that had no knowledge of the design process.

Which infers that this piece does have intimate knowledge, despite no
references or other clear & impartial credentials.

> © 2010 Ira J. Schechtman. Ira J. Schechtman is a technology expert
> specializing in smart phones.  Contact him at...

No thanks, and no need.   If Ira is going to spam a bunch of public
discussion groups, he'll have to "stoop" to coming back to read &
reply in public to whatever feedback transpires.

-hh

--
© 2010 Huntzinger Group, An International Center of Excellence in
technologies to generate satirical .sig entries
nospam - 02 Feb 2010 03:33 GMT
In article
<dad2545c-bd21-4ca9-b036-da5be82bc6af@q4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, -hh
<recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:

> > Thereís been a lot of talk recently about the Apple iPad.
> > Some of the criteria were:
>
> ...unsubstantiated.   As such, it hardly merits any critiquing of
> them, since we don't really know if they truly were from the actual
> design team, or merely YA piece of fiction.  

if you've seen this person's posts before, it's very clear that much of
it is fiction.

> Which infers that this piece does have intimate knowledge, despite no
> references or other clear & impartial credentials.

don't hold your breath on that.

> No thanks, and no need.   If Ira is going to spam a bunch of public
> discussion groups, he'll have to "stoop" to coming back to read &
> reply in public to whatever feedback transpires.

and if you do a little digging you'll find there really isn't an ira
who specializes in smartphones at all...
-hh - 02 Feb 2010 12:12 GMT
> > > Thereís been a lot of talk recently about the Apple iPad.
> > > Some of the criteria were:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> if you've seen this person's posts before, it's very clear that much of
> it is fiction.

But of course; as the saying goes, "on the Internet no one knows that
you're a dog".

> > No thanks, and no need.   If Ira is going to spam a bunch of public
> > discussion groups, he'll have to "stoop" to coming back to read &
> > reply in public to whatever feedback transpires.
>
> and if you do a little digging you'll find there really isn't an ira
> who specializes in smartphones at all...

A little digging produces:

http://www.taftjobs.com/

YMMV if that webpage fails to render improperly.

Such as this:
<http://www.huntzinger.com/usenet/www.taftjobs.com.gif>

Of course, if this "Ira" really is that Ira, then this webpage problem
will be fixed by this afternoon.  Otherwise, we can conclude that this
"Ira" is merely a sockpuppet who is committing Identity Theft in
addition to AstroTurfing.

-hh
Larry - 02 Feb 2010 09:48 GMT
-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote in news:dad2545c-bd21-4ca9-b036-
da5be82bc6af@q4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

> I thought that I'd explain to everyone that the reasons for providing
> proper citations in journalistic endeavors.

My Irony Meter just blew another fuse......(c;]

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Larry

Your Name - 02 Feb 2010 05:33 GMT
> The inevitable Apple bashing over the iPad’s design specifications
> began minutes after it was announced, and most of it was uniformed
> drivel from those that had no knowledge of the design process.

It was pretty much established that it wasn't going to be a full computer
MANY months before the announcement. Most of those still whining about it
are morons who wanted a tablet Mac, but were only willing to pay about $200
for it.  :-\
Mr X - 02 Feb 2010 05:33 GMT
> -Do not impact sales of the Macintosh product line (or as they said,
> this is an iPad, not a MacPad).

? Why would the go ahead and make $9 versions of the Works suite.

Does not compute.

> -Drive sales of more content, applications, music, videos, and books.

Serve customer's needs for a universal media player and this will be
the side benefit.

> -Become the eBook reader of choice, destroying the Kindle, the Sony
> reader, and any other potential entrants into that market.

Yup. Waiting around for competition to assemble itself is dumb.

> -Make it impossible to run mainstream operating systems on the
> platform, including OS-X, Linux, and Windows (the CPU choice
> guarantees this).

? This is appliance computing. While the hardware isn't a loss-leader
like the PS3, Apple WILL defend its OS to keep it from becoming a
hacker's den of thieves.

> -No connectivity to non-Apple external peripherals that could turn the
> device into a vertical market platform.

Wut. This will do 720p out and last I checked Apple doesn't make HD
TVs.

It supports bluetooth and 802.11n data interchange, not sure how the
BT pairing works tho.

> -No handwriting recognition.

"3rd party opportunity"

> -No USB ports, no memory card slots, no ports at all other than the
> standard dock connector (the “connectivity kit” is a misnomer since it
> only allows the device to read memory cards and USB sticks, it does
> not provide a general purpose USB port or SD card slot).

and output 720p.

> the iPhone as well). A camera in a future model is virtual certainty.

Perhaps, nothing certain IMO.

> -No multi-tasking of 3rd party applications (the reasons for this were
> to not impact performance, battery life, and 3G data usage, i.e. they
> don’t want people streaming online radio stations in the background
> the whole day). No surprise considering the iPhone has the same
> restriction.

AFAICT this is to limit the RAM footprint of 3rd party apps. Closing
backgrounded processes makes for a tidier long-term application
environment.

> trademark in many countries, including the U.S.. But they had the same
> issue with the iPhone (Cisco owned the trademark) and they were able
> to come to a satisfactory agreement to obtain the trademark.

$30B in the bank helps . . .

> points that netbooks don’t have. Apple tends to be what’s called a
> “fast follower” when it comes to new product categories. They don’t
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> take other companies’ ideas and create compelling products from the
> other companies’ failures.

yup x 100.

Apple didn't invent laser printing or Postscript either, but the
LaserWriter was a multi-billion-dollar innovation for the company.

Pioneers take the arrows, settlers take the land.

> Apple was especially wise to not get into the netbook business.
> Netbooks are a low-margin business which affects sales of higher cost
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> specializing in smart phones. Contact him at
> iraDOTjDOTschecht...@gmail.com (replace DOT with a period).
ZnU - 02 Feb 2010 06:35 GMT
In article
<8063c439-986f-4029-924b-1cccec742acd@v37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,

> > -Do not impact sales of the Macintosh product line (or as they said,
> > this is an iPad, not a MacPad).
>
> ? Why would the go ahead and make $9 versions of the Works suite.
>
> Does not compute.

The pricing on the iWork apps is actually really interesting. Apple is
clearly trying to lead by example with the kind of pricing they want to
see for apps on the platform. I think they're working off of the theory
(apparently correct, or so some iPhone developers report) that the App
Store makes it so easy to buy apps that, if they're reasonably priced,
people just buy a lot more of them than they do for desktops, and
developers end up making more money even with the lower prices.

[snip]

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Mr X - 02 Feb 2010 09:36 GMT
> In article
> The pricing on the iWork apps is actually really interesting. Apple is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> people just buy a lot more of them than they do for desktops, and
> developers end up making more money even with the lower prices.

Free market competition with a level playing field is a beautiful
thing.

Apple has sold more than 75M iPhone OS devices, which is FIFTEEN times
the TOTAL number of Apple II's sold over the 80s.

Software development is magical, development cost is perfectly spread
over the sales base since the marginal cost of a copy is approximately
$0 (at least for a fire & forget platform like the iPhone . . . when
you sell a $50 game the buyers rightfully expect technical support).

I was lucky to work at Microprose in the 90s and got to see how a
first-rank software operation is organized. We played morning BB in
the warehouse, and at the time I didn't understand that all the boxes
in the warehouse was Bad News for the company.

Steam and the App Store are the future. ex-Palm people I know have
told me that they tried hard to bring in app sales into Palm early
last decade, but didn't have the resources or the corporate oomph to
push it through.
 
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