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Cellular Phone Forum / Country Specific / Australian Group / February 2008Cash carrot for Telstra slowcoaches
From http://business.smh.com.au/cash-carrot-for-telstra-slowcoaches/20080103-1k2c.html ELSTRA has resorted to offering customers on its CDMA mobile phone network a cash incentive to switch services, in the latest sign it is struggling to force thousands of users to make the move just three weeks before the old regional network is scheduled to be shut down. The company yesterday introduced a $50 cash-back offer for CDMA customers who buy a pre-paid Samsung mobile phone recommended for use in rural areas. Telstra has given customers until January 28 - when the network is due to close - to accept the offer. It will not say how many customers are still using the regional network, but says it is on track to close it this month despite the possibility that the Minister for Communications, Stephen Conroy, will prevent it from happening should it fail to pass an audit. A report from the Australian Communications and Media Authority is expected to go before Senator Conroy next week. An Ovum telecommunications analyst, David Kennedy, said Telstra's cash-back offer was "fairly substantial", which suggested that significant numbers of customers were still using the CDMA network. Telstra's biggest mobile phone dealer, Fone Zone, estimated in late October that more than 880,000 customers remained on the network. However, a month later Telstra said the figure was "several hundred thousand customers". Mr Kennedy said Telstra would only be offering incentives to customers because it still had many who were resisting the switch to the much-trumpeted NextG network. "It could only be because they are not upgrading customers fast enough," he said. However, Mr Kennedy said it was unclear how many customers had switched to NextG over Christmas, which was traditionally when people upgraded their mobile phones. "The faster the migration the better because during the migration period [Telstra is] bearing the cost of running two separate networks. Their cost base is elevated . which is why Telstra is so keen to do the switch-off in the period they had proposed." But a Telstra spokesman, Peter Taylor, said the closure of the network was on track after "exceptionally busy" trading last month. Telstra was opening temporary kiosks in regional areas to help customers make the shift. > From > http://business.smh.com.au/cash-carrot-for-telstra-slowcoaches/20080103-1k2c.html > ELSTRA has resorted to offering customers on its CDMA mobile phone network a cash incentive to switch services, in the > latest sign it is struggling to force thousands of users to make the move just three > weeks before the old regional network is scheduled to be shut down. > The company yesterday introduced a $50 cash-back offer for CDMA > customers who buy a pre-paid Samsung mobile phone recommended for use in rural areas. Telstra has given customers > until January 28 - when the network is due to close - to accept the offer. So much for the lie that what they would offer in Dec was the best it would ever be. > It will not say how many customers are still using the regional > network, but says it is on track to close it this month despite the > possibility that the Minister for Communications, Stephen Conroy, > will prevent it from happening should it fail to pass an audit. > A report from the Australian Communications and Media Authority is expected to go before Senator Conroy next week. > An Ovum telecommunications analyst, David Kennedy, said Telstra's > cash-back offer was "fairly substantial", which suggested that > significant numbers of customers were still using the CDMA network. > Telstra's biggest mobile phone dealer, Fone Zone, estimated in late > October that more than 880,000 customers remained on the network. > However, a month later Telstra said the figure was "several hundred thousand customers". > Mr Kennedy said Telstra would only be offering incentives to customers because it still had many who were resisting > the switch to the much-trumpeted NextG network. "It could only be because they are not upgrading customers fast > enough," he said. > However, Mr Kennedy said it was unclear how many customers had switched to NextG over Christmas, which was > traditionally when people upgraded their mobile phones. > "The faster the migration the better because during the migration > period [Telstra is] bearing the cost of running two separate > networks. Their cost base is elevated . which is why Telstra is so keen to do the switch-off in the period they had > proposed." Another bare faced lie. > But a Telstra spokesman, Peter Taylor, said the closure of the > network was on track after "exceptionally busy" trading last month. > Telstra was opening temporary kiosks in regional areas to help > customers make the shift. >> From >> http://business.smh.com.au/cash-carrot-for-telstra-slowcoaches/20080103-1k2c.html [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So much for the lie that what they would offer in Dec was the best it > would ever be. Yes - exactly. I think those who transferred over to more expensive non-cashback handsets last year should demand a $50 credit from Telstra, or else complain to the ACCC and TIO that their previous claims (ie: spin doctor John Rolland's letter to customers) were misleading and deceptive, in breach of the Trade Practices Act. >> It will not say how many customers are still using the regional >> network, but says it is on track to close it this month despite the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> Telstra was opening temporary kiosks in regional areas to help >> customers make the shift.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Alan Parkington wrote... > ELSTRA has resorted to offering customers on its CDMA mobile phone network a > cash incentive to switch services, in the latest sign it is struggling to > force thousands of users to make the move just three weeks before the old > regional network is scheduled to be shut down. I'm starting to wish that I wasn't an early adopter. Instead of a "cash incentive" I would have liked to have hit Telstra up for a Motorola Razr2 V9 on a cheaper plan than the $60 plan that it's currently available on. > But a Telstra spokesman, Peter Taylor, said the closure of the network was > on track after "exceptionally busy" trading last month. Telstra was opening > temporary kiosks in regional areas to help customers make the shift. Haven't seen any around here and talking to a mate on Monday who runs a local Telstra shop (I think that he's an independant dealer, rather than a "Telstra shop" dealer), he said that he hasn't had any great numbers rushing in to get new phones. Certainly I know quite a few people who are still on CDMA, but also have a few who are now on NextG, some migrating from CDMA and some from GSM. talking to a coupla mates who own ZTEs, they tell me that when they go fishing offshore (down towards Cliffy Island off Wilson's Prom), that NextG reception can actually improve over what CDMA was doing on previous trips. They also reckon that they're picking up cells from Tassie. Last weekend though, they were out with their young blokes. One of them had no problems getting a NG signal while the other had nothing. In the end he turned off his phone and back on and it came good. Alternatively, at another mate's chalet up near Mt Hotham (Dinner Plain), the guy who had a reliable signal on the water had problems, while the other one had no problems. This might be a function of the ZTEs' performances, or batch quality, perhaps. >You've received an answer to your question about subverting the USA >Alan Parkington wrote... >> ELSTRA has resorted to offering customers on its CDMA mobile phone network a >> cash incentive to switch services, in the latest sign it is struggling to >> force thousands of users to make the move just three weeks before the old >> regional network is scheduled to be shut down. >I'm starting to wish that I wasn't an early adopter. Instead of a "cash >incentive" I would have liked to have hit Telstra up for a Motorola Razr2 V9 on >a cheaper plan than the $60 plan that it's currently available on. Personally I would like to have a CDMA handset and refuse to transfer since Telstra cannot force you to move to another type of handset if you don't want to. How many people are locked into contracts for the CDMA phones? Did Telstra come up with a 'creative' way to allow people to break their current contracts in order to suck them over to 3G? >> But a Telstra spokesman, Peter Taylor, said the closure of the network was >> on track after "exceptionally busy" trading last month. Telstra was opening >> temporary kiosks in regional areas to help customers make the shift. >Haven't seen any around here and talking to a mate on Monday who runs a local >Telstra shop (I think that he's an independant dealer, rather than a "Telstra >shop" dealer), he said that he hasn't had any great numbers rushing in to get >new phones. >Certainly I know quite a few people who are still on CDMA, but also have a few >who are now on NextG, some migrating from CDMA and some from GSM. Who's been able to migrate back the other way though? Surely it has to be possible, but there are probably a lot of 'procedures' in place so call centre droids cannot sell CDMA SIM's. >talking to a coupla mates who own ZTEs, they tell me that when they go fishing >offshore (down towards Cliffy Island off Wilson's Prom), that NextG reception >can actually improve over what CDMA was doing on previous trips. They also >reckon that they're picking up cells from Tassie. >Last weekend though, they were out with their young blokes. One of them had no >problems getting a NG signal while the other had nothing. In the end he turned >off his phone and back on and it came good. >Alternatively, at another mate's chalet up near Mt Hotham (Dinner Plain), the >guy who had a reliable signal on the water had problems, while the other one had >no problems. >This might be a function of the ZTEs' performances, or batch quality, perhaps. http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2049 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1647 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1934 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1495 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1368 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1126 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1117 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=947 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1123 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2043 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2039 http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1836 BD. SignatureBethany Ryan - ORBnet Bounty Hunter - Seeking and Killing spammers and scammers Supporting products such as the Body Bouncer at http://www.bodybouncer.com - the Fleshlight at http://www.fleshlightuk.com - Home-Made Sex Toys for you at http://www.homemade-sex-toys.com - my site http://lios.apana.org.au/~bethanybb > centre droids cannot sell CDMA SIM's. Umm dingbat, CDMA phones don't have SIM cards.. > Marts <marts_57@yahoo.com.au> wrote >> You've received an answer to your question about subverting the USA >> Alan Parkington wrote... >>> ELSTRA has resorted to offering customers on its CDMA mobile phone >>> network a cash incentive to switch services, in the latest sign it is >>> struggling to force thousands of users to make the move just three >>> weeks before the old regional network is scheduled to be shut down. >> I'm starting to wish that I wasn't an early adopter. Instead of a >> "cash incentive" I would have liked to have hit Telstra up for a >> Motorola Razr2 V9 on a cheaper plan than the $60 plan that it's >> currently available on. > Personally I would like to have a CDMA handset and refuse to transfer since > Telstra cannot force you to move to another type of handset if you don't want to. Yes, but they can certainly make your cdma handset useless if the govt allows that. > How many people are locked into contracts for the CDMA phones? None now. > Did Telstra come up with a 'creative' way to allow people to > break their current contracts in order to suck them over to 3G? Nothing 'creative' about it, they cant hold you to the contract if they reneg on their side of the contract and turn the cdma system off. Arguably you can hold them to the contract and force them to keep the cdma system turned on, but your chances arent that great. >>> But a Telstra spokesman, Peter Taylor, said the closure of the >>> network was on track after "exceptionally busy" trading last month. >>> Telstra was opening temporary kiosks in regional areas to help >>> customers make the shift. >> Haven't seen any around here and talking to a mate on Monday who >> runs a local Telstra shop (I think that he's an independant dealer, >> rather than a "Telstra shop" dealer), he said that he hasn't had any >> great numbers rushing in to get new phones. >> Certainly I know quite a few people who are still on CDMA, but also >> have a few who are now on NextG, some migrating from CDMA and some >> from GSM. > Who's been able to migrate back the other way though? No one, zero, nada, ziltch. > Surely it has to be possible, Yes, but a fat lot of good that will do you when the cdma system is turned off. > but there are probably a lot of 'procedures' in place > so call centre droids cannot sell CDMA SIM's. cdma phones dont have sims. >> talking to a coupla mates who own ZTEs, they tell me that when they >> go fishing offshore (down towards Cliffy Island off Wilson's Prom), >> that NextG reception can actually improve over what CDMA was doing >> on previous trips. They also reckon that they're picking up cells from Tassie. >> Last weekend though, they were out with their young blokes. One of >> them had no problems getting a NG signal while the other had nothing. >> In the end he turned off his phone and back on and it came good. >> Alternatively, at another mate's chalet up near Mt Hotham (Dinner >> Plain), the guy who had a reliable signal on the water had problems, >> while the other one had no problems. >> This might be a function of the ZTEs' performances, or batch quality, perhaps. >> Marts <marts_57@yahoo.com.au> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Yes, but they can certainly make your cdma handset useless if the govt allows that. Not completely useless. I still use my old AMPS handset as a Tetris/Snake gaming console. > Rod Speed wrote >>> Marts <marts_57@yahoo.com.au> wrote >>>> You've received an answer to your question about subverting the USA >>>> Alan Parkington wrote... >>>>> ELSTRA has resorted to offering customers on its CDMA mobile phone >>>>> network a cash incentive to switch services, in the latest sign it is struggling >>>>> to force thousands of users to make the move just three weeks before the >>>>> old regional network is scheduled to be shut down. >>>> I'm starting to wish that I wasn't an early adopter. Instead of a >>>> "cash incentive" I would have liked to have hit Telstra up for a >>>> Motorola Razr2 V9 on a cheaper plan than the $60 plan that it's >>>> currently available on. >>> Personally I would like to have a CDMA handset and refuse to >>> transfer since Telstra cannot force you to move to another type of >>> handset if you don't want to. >> Yes, but they can certainly make your cdma handset useless if the govt allows that. > Not completely useless. I still use my old AMPS handset as a Tetris/Snake gaming console. You're sposed to give some sort of warning before you leap out of that closet quite so enthusiastically. Bethany Ryan wrote... > >This might be a function of the ZTEs' performances, or batch quality, perhaps. > > http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2049 What's all this crap s'posed to be? > Personally I would like to have a CDMA handset and refuse to transfer > since > Telstra cannot force you to move to another type of handset if you don't > want to. How many people are locked into contracts for the CDMA phones? > Did a) Telstra would like you to migrate but you can choose to port or disconnect instead Not sure if anyone is left locked into contracts, but when network ends they will not be charged for the contract termination > Telstra come up with a 'creative' way to allow people to break their > current > contracts in order to suck them over to 3G? Theyve been waived ETCs within limits for months and months now >>Certainly I know quite a few people who are still on CDMA, but also have a >>few [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > possible, but there are probably a lot of 'procedures' in place so call > centre droids cannot sell CDMA SIM's. a) CDMA SIMs dont exist b) Telstra has not sold CDMA services for some time. No point. > Alan Parkington wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > V9 on > a cheaper plan than the $60 plan that it's currently available on. Phones (whether 3G or 2G) never get more expensive, they only get cheaper > Haven't seen any around here and talking to a mate on Monday who runs a > local [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > get > new phones. Most people are organised and did the change ages ago > talking to a coupla mates who own ZTEs, they tell me that when they go > fishing > offshore (down towards Cliffy Island off Wilson's Prom), that NextG > reception > can actually improve over what CDMA was doing on previous trips. They also > reckon that they're picking up cells from Tassie. Quite possible. > Last weekend though, they were out with their young blokes. One of them > had no > problems getting a NG signal while the other had nothing. In the end he > turned > off his phone and back on and it came good. First thing you do when you have an reception problems >> Alan Parkington wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> Motorola Razr2 V9 on >> a cheaper plan than the $60 plan that it's currently available on. > Phones (whether 3G or 2G) never get more expensive, they only get cheaper Wrong, as always. >> Haven't seen any around here and talking to a mate on Monday who >> runs a local [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> in to get >> new phones. > Most people are organised and did the change ages ago Bare faced pig ignorant lie. >> talking to a coupla mates who own ZTEs, they tell me that when they >> go fishing [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> he turned >> off his phone and back on and it came good. > First thing you do when you have an reception problems Stupid to need to. >> Phones (whether 3G or 2G) never get more expensive, they only get cheaper > > Wrong, as always. I'd like to see examples where you think they have gone UP in price >>> Haven't seen any around here and talking to a mate on Monday who >>> runs a local [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bare faced pig ignorant lie. The number of people left is just a mere shadow of the height of the customer based. I've seen the figures. >>> Last weekend though, they were out with their young blokes. One of >>> them had no [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Stupid to need to. Might be, but thats exactly what you do with computers, mobiles and other electronic devices when you have a problem with them. fixes things 50% of the time. >>> Phones (whether 3G or 2G) never get more expensive, they only get cheaper >> Wrong, as always. > I'd like to see examples where you think they have gone UP in price I know the Nokia N series phones have, you stupid pig ignorant dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>>> Haven't seen any around here and talking to a mate on Monday who runs a local >>>> Telstra shop (I think that he's an independant dealer, rather than a "Telstra shop" dealer), he said that he hasn't >>>> had any great numbers rushing in to get new phones. >>> Most people are organised and did the change ages ago >> Bare faced pig ignorant lie. > The number of people left is just a mere shadow of the height of the customer based. Irrelevant to that bare faced pig ignorant lie. > I've seen the figures. But are so stupid that you dont even realise that what figures you have seen say absolutely NOTHING about that bare faced pig ignorant lie of yours. >>>> Last weekend though, they were out with their young blokes. One of them had no problems getting a NG signal while >>>> the other had nothing. In the end he turned off his phone and back on and it came good. >>> First thing you do when you have an reception problems >> Stupid to need to. > Might be, No might be about it. > but thats exactly what you do with computers, mobiles and > other electronic devices when you have a problem with them. Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a f.cking clue about anything at all, ever. > fixes things 50% of the time. Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. >>>> Phones (whether 3G or 2G) never get more expensive, they only get >>>> cheaper [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I know the Nokia N series phones have, you stupid pig ignorant dunny > cleaning fuckwit child. Very vague claim not supported by any evidence >>>> Most people are organised and did the change ages ago > >>> Bare faced pig ignorant lie. Quite correct. very few left > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>>>> Phones (whether 3G or 2G) never get more expensive, they only get cheaper >>>> Wrong, as always. >>> I'd like to see examples where you think they have gone UP in price >> I know the Nokia N series phones have, you stupid pig ignorant dunny cleaning fuckwit child. > Very vague claim Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. > not supported by any evidence Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>>>> Most people are organised and did the change ages ago >>>> Bare faced pig ignorant lie. > Quite correct. very few left Bare faced pig ignorant lie. >> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones > explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. There are multiple "N-Series" phones, w.nker, thus making your claim "vague" >> not supported by any evidence > > Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices > of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. Cite them then > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>>>>>> Phones (whether 3G or 2G) never get more expensive, they only get cheaper >>>>>> Wrong, as always. >>>>> I'd like to see examples where you think they have gone UP in price >>>> I know the Nokia N series phones have, you stupid pig ignorant dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>> Very vague claim >> Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones >> explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. > There are multiple "N-Series" phones, Use the most expensive ones, you stupid pig ignorant dunny cleaning fuckwit child. > thus making your claim "vague" Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>> not supported by any evidence >> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices >> of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. > Cite them then Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. > Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones > explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices > of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. Ehh, he. You claim the prices had gone up, then you try to make someone else prove you were correct. As you would say, Roddles-fuckwit, "YOU made the claim. YOU get to prove it". One of my favorites lines from you, actually >> Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones >> explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>>>> not supported by any evidence >>>> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices >>>> of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>> Cite them then >> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices >> of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. > Ehh, he. Pathetic. > You claim the prices had gone up, then you try to make someone else prove you were correct. You're lying, as always. I told you which prices to check for yourself, liar. >>> Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones >>> explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You're lying, as always. I told you which prices to check for yourself, > liar. Prove it by checking your OWN claim. fuckstick > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>>> Bare faced lie. Nothing vague whatever about specifying the phones >>>> explicitly, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>>>>>> not supported by any evidence >>>>>> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices >>>>>> of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>>>> Cite them then >>>> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices >>>> of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. >>> Ehh, he. >> Pathetic. >>> You claim the prices had gone up, then you try to make someone else prove you were correct. >> You're lying, as always. I told you which prices to check for yourself, liar. > Prove it by checking your OWN claim. fuckstick Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. Michael wrote... >> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the prices >> of those, you stupid pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning fuckwit child. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You claim the prices had gone up, then you try to make someone else prove >you were correct. That's Rod all over. He won't post any links to support his stance on this issue, you watch. > Michael wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > That's Rod all over. He won't post any links to support his stance on this > issue, you watch. He's a real stale fart at times >>>>>> Most people are organised and did the change ages ago > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bare faced pig ignorant lie. Ive seen the latest subbie numbers, Roddles, very few left >>>>>>> Most people are organised and did the change ages ago >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ive seen the latest subbie numbers, Roddles, very few left Bare faced pig ignorant lie. >>>>>>>> Most people are organised and did the change ages ago >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bare faced pig ignorant lie. Believe what you will. > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>>>>>>>> Most people are organised and did the change ages ago >>>>>>>> Bare faced pig ignorant lie. >>>>> Quite correct. very few left >>>> Bare faced pig ignorant lie. >>> Ive seen the latest subbie numbers, Roddles, very few left >> Bare faced pig ignorant lie. > Believe what you will. That you never ever have a f.cking clue. Michael wrote... >> I know the Nokia N series phones have, you stupid pig ignorant dunny >> cleaning fuckwit child. > >Very vague claim not supported by any evidence What about the Motorola V series? The V3 is cheaper than the V6 which is in turn cheaper than the V8 and V9 respectively. The dearest RRP is around $900, maybe a bit less. That's an awful lot for a phone that doesn't do anything more than what the V3 does, for example, aside from a larger LCD display on the outside, probably a higher res camera (but that's a gimmick, not a core function of the phone) and some asthetic changes. It's like those people with more money than sense who buy HSV Clubsports which have about $30k over the base Commodore or Berlina on which they're based. Lots of money paid for something that's nothing more than a mass produced family sedan with some "go fast" bits tacked on. SignatureA little knowledge is dangerous. So is a lot. |
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