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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / July 2005ATT-Cingular Hell - Tower problem help needed
We signed up for a four phone, family plan last fall because the salesman said ATT has the best packages and it is even going to get better when it joins with Cingular. Well, I do think ATT has a good package, but part two didn't come true. Cingular has been a disaster for us. For the past week none of our phones has worked correctly. We can call out, but we cannot receive calls and missed calls are not shown. We do get voice mail, but it shows up several hours after the voicemail was placed. We have called Cingular Customer Service each day and all we get are mixed signals and no information that has helped us. There were a couple of good ones, but the rest seemed clueless. The main cause that is sited is that there is trouble with a tower in Denver and it is affecting everyone in that area. They say they are working on it but are not sure when it will be fixed. I asked, by, "everyone," did they mean Cingular customers also. I was told yes by the CS agent, but when I went to my local Cingular store, they said, yeah, all the ATT customers are having problems, but the Cingular customers are not. "We can fix you up by migrating you to Cingular." Of course you know what that means, worse plan, having to get new phones, migrating charges, etc. I'm at the end of my rope, we did away with our land line two months ago because we figured why pay an extra $35 a month when everyone already has their own phone. I hope someone knowledgeable can answer a few simple questions I have and give me some advice of what to do next. If a tower is bad, why doesn't that impact the outgoing call? I can call out with no problems, but cannot receive? The CS rep said that's just the way it works. Are both Cingular and ATT calls handled by the same tower? I was told they were, but when I asked why were Cingular customers not affected then, the answer I got was, "I don't know." At one point we were given a code, #002# then told to turn off the phone. We did that and when the phones came back on, they worked, but only for about ten minutes, then they failed again. Any idea what that was about? At this point I would just like to break the contract if possible with no penalty, because they cannot provide us service, and go back to T-Mobile, which we had for several years with no problems. Anyone have an idea who I would contact to discuss that? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sorry to be so long winded, but don't really know what to do next. Bill > For the past week none of our phones has worked correctly. We can call out, > but we cannot receive calls and missed calls > are not shown. We do get voice mail, but it shows up several hours after the > voicemail was placed. this has started happening to me (a former ATT Wireless customer), too. And this is interesting: go to cingular.com and look for the customer forums. Look at the forum for former ATT Wireless customers. Your situation (and mine) is a very large discussion right at the top. The reason as I understand it is that they are not maintaining the ATT towers. You will be forced to migrate, trust me. I've migrated 3 phones. It works out better in the long run. Just migrate.  SignatureScorp >The reason as I understand it is that they are not maintaining the ATT >towers. You will be forced to migrate, trust me. I've migrated 3 >phones. It works out better in the long run. Just migrate. While it's true that everyone will be forced to migrate eventually, there's no truth to the rumor that Cingular isn't maintaining the ATTWS towers. In fact they're being integrated into the Cingular network. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > While it's true that everyone will be forced to migrate eventually, there's no > truth to the rumor that Cingular isn't maintaining the ATTWS towers. In fact > they're being integrated into the Cingular network. In terms of migration, I would expect that the GSM users eventually could be "imported" into the Orange GSM system, couldn't they? I mean, it's not like a copy and merge because of different billing features, but I would expect that it would indeed be possible. I, and other Blue GSM users have not heard anything about "migration" from Cingular. I heard a rumor that Cingular is only pushing migration to Orange GSM from both Orange TDMA and Blue TDMA. Any thought, anyone? TH >> While it's true that everyone will be forced to migrate eventually, there's no >> truth to the rumor that Cingular isn't maintaining the ATTWS towers. In fact [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Any thought, anyone? Cingular GSM subscribers (orange and blue) can freely roam on both GSM networks (orange and blue). SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Cingular GSM subscribers (orange and blue) can freely roam on both GSM >networks (orange and blue). Whoops, you're right, I should have said TDMA towers. SignatureScorp >>The reason as I understand it is that they are not maintaining the ATT >>towers. You will be forced to migrate, trust me. I've migrated 3 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >truth to the rumor that Cingular isn't maintaining the ATTWS towers. In fact >they're being integrated into the Cingular network. Actually, this not true. They are converting a percentage of the TDMA towers to GSM. This results in less coverage for TDMA users. You can call that "integrating" into the Cingular network, but it's not a very honest claim. Cingular should wait until the last TDMA contract ends, and then shut everyone's butt off. But not during their contract where their only option is to sign a longer contract or not use their service. I have trouble with telling a company that I'm displeased with the service it provides me, and then the only answer they can offer is that I sign up to stay longer. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>While it's true that everyone will be forced to migrate eventually, there's no >>truth to the rumor that Cingular isn't maintaining the ATTWS towers. In fact [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You can call that "integrating" into the Cingular network, but it's > not a very honest claim. Why is it not an honest claim? AT&T made no definitive committment to continue the TDMA network, and in fact, they were migrating users as well to GSM pre-merger. This is simply a continuation of that practice. Seems like integration to me. SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. >> Actually, this not true. They are converting a percentage of the TDMA >> towers to GSM. This results in less coverage for TDMA users. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >well to GSM pre-merger. This is simply a continuation of that practice. > Seems like integration to me. Example: My girlfriend has a TDMA phone and a contract that runs through the end of the year. She can no longer use the phone reliably, as about 4 out of 5 calls drop upon connection. She has to continue paying for service for another 5 months. In order to use that service, she has to either sign a new contract for two more years, or shell out $200 for a new phone. I don't recall signing a contract that said, "You may use 75% of this contract and then you must either extend by two more years or pay for a new phone to use the remaining portion.. but you have to keep paying for it." The right thing to do, is either provide equipment that will work, or wait until the last contract expires. Hell, I don't care if they shut all the TDMA towers down with no notice.. provided it's the day after the expiration of the last contract. So essentially, she has a device that is no longer functioning a reasonable percentage of the time, which means they are no longer providing her the service she contracted for. But she still has to pay her monthly bill. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >Example: My girlfriend has a TDMA phone and a contract that runs >through the end of the year. She can no longer use the phone >reliably, as about 4 out of 5 calls drop upon connection. She has to >continue paying for service for another 5 months. *If* that's *really* true, and it's not a handset fault, then I think she has a right to terminate without penalty. >In order to use >that service, she has to either sign a new contract for two more >years, or shell out $200 for a new phone. She can switch with a 1-year contract and/or a cheaper phone. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>Example: My girlfriend has a TDMA phone and a contract that runs >>through the end of the year. She can no longer use the phone [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >*If* that's *really* true, and it's not a handset fault, then I think she has >a right to terminate without penalty. One would think. They've made it pretty clear that there are plenty of towers, just none that she can use with a TDMA device. They made it pretty clear that getting out of the contract was not an option. >>In order to use >>that service, she has to either sign a new contract for two more >>years, or shell out $200 for a new phone. > >She can switch with a 1-year contract and/or a cheaper phone. She's not happy with the wireless service, or the customer service (not one phone call has gone less than two hours).. why would she obligate to stay with the company longer? She just wants what she paid for: Two years of service, in exchange for two years of timely monthly payments. No extensions, no new devices, no less-attractive calling plans. She signed a contract, she has to hold up her end of it -- so should Cingular have to. We'll determine at the end of her contract if we stay or not. My contract has already ended, and with the exception of not getting the roaming that my contract says I get, I haven't really had any problems. The coverage is excellent here (I'm in a much larger city than she is) and I don't know that I necessarily want to leave. But the simple lack of ethics in their business model lead me to believe that I might feel better taking my business elsewhere. While she is stuck with Cingular as the only provider that has coverage where she goes to school, I actually can pick from three different major providers that have strong coverage in my area. I just haven't made up my mind that Cingular has done enough to run me/us off. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>*If* that's *really* true, and it's not a handset fault, then I think she has >>a right to terminate without penalty. > >One would think. They've made it pretty clear that there are plenty >of towers, just none that she can use with a TDMA device. They made >it pretty clear that getting out of the contract was not an option. If you just accept that, then you have no real complaint (no offense intended). SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>One would think. They've made it pretty clear that there are plenty >>of towers, just none that she can use with a TDMA device. They made >>it pretty clear that getting out of the contract was not an option. > >If you just accept that, then you have no real complaint (no offense >intended). There's a limit to how much she can focus on arguing this matter with them. She spends 55 minutes of every hour on hold, and after several hours of trying, she just can't keep doing it. That's really been my biggest complaint with them -- I get wonderful coverage -- but every call I've made has gone longer than two hours, and in the past year, I've made 11 calls to resolve my issue with roaming charges.. that's more than 22 hours on the phone.. or half of a full-time work week. I don't mind people or systems making errors.. it happens. Fortunately, my problems were not device-related, and they were eventually resolved. But there's a limit to how much I should be punished by having to sit on my phone on hold for hours on end as a result. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>>The reason as I understand it is that they are not maintaining the ATT >>>towers. You will be forced to migrate, trust me. I've migrated 3 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Actually, this not true. They are converting a percentage of the TDMA >towers to GSM. This results in less coverage for TDMA users. I know of no actual, verifiable case where a TDMA cell has been eliminated -- do you? What I know to be happening is network capacity being migrated from TDMA to GSM, as ATTWS was doing pre-merger, to reflect the percentage of customers using GSM as compared to TDMA. >You can call that "integrating" into the Cingular network, but it's >not a very honest claim. I call "integrating" that (a) Cingular subscribers now have free roaming on ATTWS and vice versa, and (b) technical preparations are being made to fully integrate the two networks. >Cingular should wait until the last TDMA contract ends, and then shut >everyone's butt off. Why? That makes no sense to me. >But not during their contract where their only >option is to sign a longer contract or not use their service. If you actually do lose coverage, then IMHO you have a right to terminate without penalty. >I have trouble with telling a company that I'm displeased with the >service it provides me, and then the only answer they can offer is >that I sign up to stay longer. Better to switch than fight. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >I know of no actual, verifiable case where a TDMA cell has been eliminated -- >do you? What I know to be happening is network capacity being migrated from >TDMA to GSM, as ATTWS was doing pre-merger, to reflect the percentage of >customers using GSM as compared to TDMA. She had 14 months of strong service anywhere in here area, then within 3 months of the merger, only about 20% of her calls connect. That 20% is plagued with signal strength issues. Cingular was pretty straight forward with her about the fact that they've adjusted their coverage to service GSM rather than TDMA in her area. In two years, I've not had one dropped call (literally.. not one) and I can't get a good signal there either. This may not be indicative of technology changes in other areas, but it sure seems overwhelmingly evident where she is. >>You can call that "integrating" into the Cingular network, but it's >>not a very honest claim. > >I call "integrating" that (a) Cingular subscribers now have free roaming on >ATTWS and vice versa, and (b) technical preparations are being made to fully >integrate the two networks. Ok, I'll agree with you there. Except for the fact that she's unable to get on most of the towers in her area now. >>Cingular should wait until the last TDMA contract ends, and then shut >>everyone's butt off. > >Why? That makes no sense to me. Well, here's my theory. Let's say I own MangusComm (ya like that?) and I have a million subscribers. I'd like to move to GSM and I've recently picked up 250k of those subscribers from the acquisition of Tele-Navas. If I alter the configuration of, say, 60% of my TDMA towers to cover GSM devices, I've effectively cut off about 60% of my TDMA customers, as they're not competing for a much smaller number of towers.. if they can even reach them. If they're on contracts that are still enduring, I'm not providing the service they have contracted for. I owe them service, just as they owe me a payment each month. It's not ethical for me to make them obligate to a longer period in order to use a service I'm already bound by contract to provide them, nor is it ethical for me to say they can only use the remainder of their contract by buying a new device, which many of them may not be able to afford. I'm obligated to provide them new service, even if it means providing them with a compatible device. Now, I think you and I can agree that I would be a fool to start handing out $200 phones for free, so the ethical thing to do would be to leave the towers intact for the duration of the existing contracts. Fast-forward to the day that the last contract expires. I now have no obligation to provide them with crap. I send out a mailing that says effective such-and-such date, TDMA devices will no longer work. We'd love for you to stay with us, but you'll need a new device. You can buy one and we'll migrate your account to use it or sign a contract and we'll provide you a phone at a discounted rate, but one way or another, TDMA is gone in __ days. There's no contractual agreement on either side. Period. This is the impact of "doing business". Not holding people hostage to finish out their contracts only if they extend it to longer terms. >>But not during their contract where their only >>option is to sign a longer contract or not use their service. > >If you actually do lose coverage, then IMHO you have a right to terminate >without penalty. I agree, my friend. Cingular does not. Personally, I think the right thing for Cingular to have done would have been to offer the same 30-day guarantee they offer new customers when the service changed. It would've been fair -- my girlfriend would've left, as she gets poor service. I would've stayed, because my service is strong. Now we're both considering leaving.. what good does that do Cingular as a company? >>I have trouble with telling a company that I'm displeased with the >>service it provides me, and then the only answer they can offer is >>that I sign up to stay longer. > >Better to switch than fight. True. And as I mentioned, I'm not completely resigned to switching. Overall, my service is spectacular. I've just never gotten my national roaming (despite faxing them a contract numerous times that says, "National Roaming: $0.00 (Included with plan)" To their defense, they've made some rather extraordinary efforts to ensure I do not get the roaming changes, such as putting me on plans that are not susceptible to roaming changes during billing cycles in which I was roaming, but (a) I was supposed to have this anyway and (b) this was at my expense of 4-6 hours of holdtime every time this happened. Why should I be punished to sitting in my house holding a phone to my head for several hours at a stretch because they can't seem to add roaming to my account? Mistakes happen. Once is something I can tolerate. This was nearly a dozen incidents. I'd say there's a better chance I'll stay than switch carriers.. I just feel as though I'm violating my own principles by doing so because of the way the company is doing business. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner [....] > Now, I think you and I can agree that I would be a fool to start > handing out $200 phones for free, so the ethical thing to do would be > to leave the towers intact for the duration of the existing contracts. One would presume there's a cost difference between these two choices, and business being business, those costs would be a valid component of any evaluation before a business decision is made. I'm not excusing it, but like you, just trying to understand it. [....] Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >>I know of no actual, verifiable case where a TDMA cell has been eliminated -- >>do you? What I know to be happening is network capacity being migrated from [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >3 months of the merger, only about 20% of her calls connect. That 20% >is plagued with signal strength issues. Lots of things could explain that, including handset issues, changes in roaming coverage, etc. >Cingular was pretty straight forward with her about the fact that >they've adjusted their coverage to service GSM rather than TDMA in her >area. That's not "Cingular" -- that's probably just someone that works for Cingular, and not necessarily the position of the company itself. >In two years, I've not had one dropped call (literally.. not >one) and I can't get a good signal there either. > >This may not be indicative of technology changes in other areas, but >it sure seems overwhelmingly evident where she is. One anecdotal data point is a long way from being "overwhelmingly evident". >>If you actually do lose coverage, then IMHO you have a right to terminate >>without penalty. > >I agree, my friend. Cingular does not. What matters is the law, not Cingular. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>She had 14 months of strong service anywhere in here area, then within >>3 months of the merger, only about 20% of her calls connect. That 20% >>is plagued with signal strength issues. > >Lots of things could explain that, including handset issues, changes in >roaming coverage, etc. Entirely agree. In this case, she switches to roam on nearly all of her calls. Never happened before. It's a change in the allocation of towers for her device type. >>Cingular was pretty straight forward with her about the fact that >>they've adjusted their coverage to service GSM rather than TDMA in her >>area. > >That's not "Cingular" -- that's probably just someone that works for Cingular, >and not necessarily the position of the company itself. Unfortunately, the COO did not answer when she called. She was stuck having to talk to representatives of the company. >>In two years, I've not had one dropped call (literally.. not >>one) and I can't get a good signal there either. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >One anecdotal data point is a long way from being "overwhelmingly evident". You'll note I said "where she is". It's very evident where she is, which is on her college campus. As mentioned, it's not indicative of other locations. And I'd say that over 400 dropped calls in a four-month period would be defined as a substantial number of data points. >>I agree, my friend. Cingular does not. > >What matters is the law, not Cingular. Do you realize the likelihood that a single individual can afford the (a) legal costs or (b) time to fight a company the size of one of the major wireless providers? She's communicating with an attorney in NJ that is trying to certify a class-action lawsuit, but there's no telling how long that will take, and it's certainly unlikely that it would occur before the end of her contract. The necessary effort to fight a legal battle doesn't outweigh the cost of paying 6 more months of service. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that the company's ethics leave a lot to be desired. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>That's not "Cingular" -- that's probably just someone that works for Cingular, >>and not necessarily the position of the company itself. > >Unfortunately, the COO did not answer when she called. She was stuck >having to talk to representatives of the company. Employees, not "representatives" (in the legal sense). >>What matters is the law, not Cingular. > >Do you realize the likelihood that a single individual can afford the >(a) legal costs or (b) time to fight a company the size of one of the >major wireless providers? Small Claims Court. >She's communicating with an attorney in NJ that is trying to certify a >class-action lawsuit, but there's no telling how long that will take, >and it's certainly unlikely that it would occur before the end of her >contract. Waste of time (IMHO). File a complaint with the BBB. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>Unfortunately, the COO did not answer when she called. She was stuck >>having to talk to representatives of the company. > >Employees, not "representatives" (in the legal sense). Schematics. To a customer calling into the customer service center (expecting customer service), these people represent the company. >>>What matters is the law, not Cingular. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Small Claims Court. Full Time Student >>She's communicating with an attorney in NJ that is trying to certify a >>class-action lawsuit, but there's no telling how long that will take, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >File a complaint with the BBB. Duly noted. I think that the BBB is actually the route she's going to take. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>>Unfortunately, the COO did not answer when she called. She was stuck >>>having to talk to representatives of the company. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Schematics. To a customer calling into the customer service center >(expecting customer service), these people represent the company. Actually legality. Statements by customer service people (especially when unverifiable) don't bind the company or modify the Service Agreement. >>>Do you realize the likelihood that a single individual can afford the >>>(a) legal costs or (b) time to fight a company the size of one of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Full Time Student Big deal. I'm full time employed. >>>She's communicating with an attorney in NJ that is trying to certify a >>>class-action lawsuit, but there's no telling how long that will take, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Duly noted. I think that the BBB is actually the route she's going to >take. Best place to start. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>Schematics. To a customer calling into the customer service center >>(expecting customer service), these people represent the company. > >Actually legality. Statements by customer service people (especially when >unverifiable) don't bind the company or modify the Service Agreement. To a customer, they represent the company. She's a customer. >>Full Time Student > >Big deal. I'm full time employed. You have time to spend several hours on the phone with Cingular everytime there's a problem? MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>In <tqmtd1tlb4lbu96qukhic49udrgjoo96oe@4ax.com> on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:19:21 >>Actually legality. Statements by customer service people (especially when >>unverifiable) don't bind the company or modify the Service Agreement. > >To a customer, they represent the company. She's a customer. Caveat emptor. >>Big deal. I'm full time employed. > >You have time to spend several hours on the phone with Cingular >everytime there's a problem? Nope, and I don't -- since the start of this year I've been able to resolve all of my issues in a fraction of an hour. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>>Big deal. I'm full time employed. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Nope, and I don't -- since the start of this year I've been able to resolve >all of my issues in a fraction of an hour. I fax them copies of a my agreement that says: "National Roaming: $0.00 (Included with package)" and they still can't get it fixed after 8-9 calls that were all over 2 hours each.. Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours.. Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>>>Big deal. I'm full time employed. >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas. Probably just a difference in style and approach; e.g., unlike you, I'm not regularly dropping the term "class-action lawsuit" (7 posts by my count). ;) SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on >her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours.. > >Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas. Perhaps it's just a different approach. This morning, for example, I got a billing error corrected in a call of only about 5 minutes, with full credit for the past six months. I was polite ( i.e., not threatening a "class action lawsuit" :) and the Customer Service person was cheerful and helpful. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > >Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on > >her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours.. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > for the past six months. I was polite ( i.e., not threatening a "class action > lawsuit" :) and the Customer Service person was cheerful and helpful. Or perhaps John Navas, in his unrelenting quest for attention, just makes up random sh.t and posts it to the faceless masses of the Usenet. >>Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas. > >Perhaps it's just a different approach. This morning, for example, I got a >billing error corrected in a call of only about 5 minutes, with full credit >for the past six months. I was polite ( i.e., not threatening a "class action >lawsuit" :) and the Customer Service person was cheerful and helpful. I'm not buying this. It's not like either of us call and are rude or discuss potential legal action. We're actually desparately nice in hopes of one last problem with the accounts. We'd be happy for only 5 minutes of hold time, much less a call time of such. You're just not able to convince me that Cingular *ever* handles something in this short amount of time.. unless they take longer with ATTWS account (i.e. the account setup looks odd to them or something). MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>>Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >something in this short amount of time.. unless they take longer with >ATTWS account (i.e. the account setup looks odd to them or something). Suit yourself. I don't appreciate being called a liar, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this. You're obviously not interested in real help. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > Suit yourself. I don't appreciate being called a liar, waaaaaah. You may not appreciate being called on the lies you tell, but that's not our problem. That's YOUR problem. If you don't like the truth coming out, then stay away. You could also quit telling lies... >>You're just not able to convince me that Cingular *ever* handles >>something in this short amount of time.. unless they take longer with >>ATTWS account (i.e. the account setup looks odd to them or something). > >Suit yourself. I don't appreciate being called a liar, so I'm not going to >waste any more time on this. You're obviously not interested in real help. No, I wasn't interested in "real help". I simply voiced my opinion. While you're helpful one moment and asking probing questions as though you're sincerely interested, you respond by arguing most points I make and chalking them up to "being skeptical". Other than a suggestion of contacting the BBB, you haven't offered anything other than insinuation that what I say is wrong. And if, as a Cingular Orange customer, you're able to be serviced and off the phone in five minutes, then it's hardly helpful to rub that in the faces of Cingular Blue customers who haven't had a customer service phone call run less than two hours. Again, company ethics. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >While you're helpful one moment and asking probing questions as though >you're sincerely interested, you respond by arguing most points I make >and chalking them up to "being skeptical". You just don't like the answers. I think that's probably because they don't fit your personal point of view -- your mind seems to be made up. >Other than a suggestion of contacting the BBB, you haven't offered >anything other than insinuation that what I say is wrong. In fact I gave you both real help and accurate information -- you're the one making accusations. >And if, as a Cingular Orange customer, you're able to be serviced and >off the phone in five minutes, then it's hardly helpful to rub that in >the faces of Cingular Blue customers who haven't had a customer >service phone call run less than two hours. I've made many "blue" calls on behalf of friends, and have never had to wait anywhere near that long. Most have been only a few minutes on hold. The worst was about 40 mins, but that was late in the day -- just as with other customer service centers, it's best to call as early as possible. Please note: another useful tip. ;) >Again, company ethics. No, just personal point of view. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > >>Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas. > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > something in this short amount of time.. unless they take longer with > ATTWS account (i.e. the account setup looks odd to them or something). like I said, John Navas will say anything to try to make his life look superior to yours. But you have no way of knowing if he's bullshitting you or not, and his claims are way outrageous, so...a rational person assumes that he is in fact bullshitting you. And he is. >like I said, John Navas will say anything to try to make his life look >superior to yours. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And he is. Thank you for an honest response. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>like I said, John Navas will say anything to try to make his life look >>superior to yours. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >MP- "We are known by the company we keep." ;) SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > "We are known by the company we keep." ;) On the same note, we are known for the company we don't keep. =============================================== * Reply by Jack D. Russell, Sr. <jackru$$ell2@notmail.com> * Newsgroup: alt.cellular.cingular * Reply to: All; "Mangus Pyke" <manguspyke@REMOVE-TO-REPLYcomcast.net> * Date:Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:31:10 -0500 * Subj: Re: ATT-Cingular Hell - Tower problem help needed ===================================================== MP>On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:00:49 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote: >>like I said, John Navas will say anything to try to make his life >>look superior to yours. >>But you have no way of knowing if he's bullshitting you or not, >>and his claims are way outrageous, so...a rational person >>assumes that he is in fact bullshitting you. >>And he is. MP>Thank you for an honest response. You seem to have confused "Honesty" with "A personal opinion based on fulfilling an agenda". You would be well served to research some of this group's history before forming alliances. Truth can be elusive if you already have your mind made up. ;) Have a good one. SignatureJack > I fax them copies of a my agreement that says: > "National Roaming: $0.00 (Included with package)" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas. I wonder if the thought ever occurred to you that Navas might be a very, very assertive person, perhaps more assertive than you or Jen. perhaps even with more experience at arguing with other people than you or Jen. SignatureIf John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination, my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin. >> Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on >> her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours.. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >very assertive person, perhaps more assertive than you or Jen. perhaps >even with more experience at arguing with other people than you or Jen. Not until now.. but perhaps that's it! MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>> Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on >>> her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours.. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Not until now.. but perhaps that's it! Hey, I was always too wimpy to try that stuff before, but the other day I decided I hade nothing to lose with Verizon. Starting balance two days before transaction, $2. Balance two days after transaction, negative $69 plus two $50 rebates on two v710 phones. Big tip: be very friendly with the customer service person; she's not the one causing problems. Be mad at her company insted. Out customer service lady pulled things out of her hat we would never have IMAGINED her doing to keep our (admittedly long-term) business. SignatureIf John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination, my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin. >[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >What matters is the law, not Cingular. Here's Cingulars plan for the second half of the year: 2nd half of this year= substantially complete over 10k cell sites for decommissioning. 47 overlap tdma markets will have decommissioning. 35 out of the 63 markets will be integrated by year-end. Umts/hsdpa will be launched in 15 to 20 markets by end of 2005. Complete all 47 tdma markets by year-end. (Tdma decommissioning) SignatureScorp > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > > I know of no actual, verifiable case where a TDMA cell has been > eliminated -- > do you? Not strictly TDMA but I do know of many sites that have been elimnated. The sites were moved one or two miles (or less in some instances) to a Cingular owned tower/site and new larger buildings were put in place to handle the TDMA/AMPS and GSM equipment that was moved into the new buildings from the old. In these instances the equipment for what both Cingular had AND AT&T had were combined into one building. In every instance this also caused an antenna change on the site to put on dual band antennas. > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > >What I know to be happening is network capacity being migrated from > TDMA to GSM, as ATTWS was doing pre-merger, to reflect the percentage of > customers using GSM as compared to TDMA. They are definatly doing this all over the country. The result is that the TDMA service is being degraded. On a recent trip of about 600 miles by car, I found that I couldn't reliably hold a TDMA call (on a major interstate) for more than a few miles/minutes. I laiddown the TDMA phone and picked up the GSM phone and was connected for well over 2 hours (Customer Service at an online ticketing agency) with no issues of any kind! > I know of no actual, verifiable case where a TDMA cell has been eliminated -- > do you? What I know to be happening is network capacity being migrated from > TDMA to GSM, as ATTWS was doing pre-merger, to reflect the percentage of > customers using GSM as compared to TDMA. According to my Cingular pals, there have been a number of TDMA cells that went the way of the dodo bird, some orange, some blue, due to duplicate coverages without enough demand to keep both. This doesn't mean TDMA coverage has disappeared, only pared back where merged capacity wasn't justified. [....] Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > > I know of no actual, verifiable case where a TDMA cell has been eliminated > > -- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > mean TDMA coverage has disappeared, only pared back where merged > capacity wasn't justified. how DARE you dispute the word of John Navas! John Navas knows all, sees all, and is the SOLE knower of all! And if John Navas said that no TDMA cell has been eliminated, then NO CELL HAS BEEN ELIMINATED. Period. You, sir, are an obvious twit who is just here to cause trouble with your blatant, spiteful lies. >>>I know of no actual, verifiable case where a TDMA cell has been eliminated >>>-- [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > CELL HAS BEEN ELIMINATED. Period. You, sir, are an obvious twit who is > just here to cause trouble with your blatant, spiteful lies. It's a conspiracy I tell ya. A conspiracy! :) Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >We signed up for a four phone, family plan last fall because the salesman said ATT has the best packages and it is even >going to get better when it joins with Cingular. Well, I do think ATT has a good package, but part two didn't come true. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >If a tower is bad, why doesn't that impact the outgoing call? I can call out with no problems, but cannot receive? The CS rep said that's just the way it works. You can't depend on what CS reps say. >Are both Cingular and ATT calls handled by the same tower? I was told they were, but when I asked why were Cingular customers not affected then, the answer I got was, "I don't know." They aren't. >At one point we were given a code, #002# then told to turn off the phone. We did that and when the phones came back on, they worked, but only for about ten minutes, then they failed again. Any idea what that was about? > >At this point I would just like to break the contract if possible with no penalty, because they cannot provide us service, and go back to T-Mobile, which we had for several years with no problems. Anyone have an idea who I would contact to discuss that? Insist on speaking to a "supervisor." If that doesn't work, ask for the "executive office." Don't give up. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> A couple of days after posting this the phones started working again and I have not had any more problems. Thanks for your response. Bill I know the problem is already resolved, but as omeone who has a bit of knowledge on how these things work, I can maybe do a little write in case this happens again in the future: > I hope someone knowledgeable can answer a few simple questions I have > and give me some advice of what to do next. > > If a tower is bad, why doesn't that impact the outgoing call? I can > call out with no problems, but cannot receive? The CS rep said that's > just the way it works. A CS rep may have been told the "tower" is bad, but that likely could mean anything related to handling the calls is in a fault condition. It could be that incoming calls are not being correctly routed to the right central office, or the switching office may, due to some glitch in the software, not be keeping track of which handsets are registered with the network, resulting in everyone being listed as "unavailable." Often though, the engineers and tech in the know aren't inclined to give a lengthy explanation of these things to a low-level CS rep because it's likely they won't understand it, and it's also likely that most end user's won't either. So, the catch-all for any such issue is "the tower is down," since most end users will accept that and deal. > Are both Cingular and ATT calls handled by the same tower? Not exactly. A better way to say this is that both Cingular and AT&T calls can be handled by either type of tower, BUT, if both happen to exist in your area, then your phone is likely to try and stick to whichever cell sites match the logo on your phone. If your phones sport the AT&T logo, then they're likely to hang on to AT&T towers for dear life unless there aren't any to be "heard" nearby, and only then will the phone try a Cingular tower. Though, phones with newer 64K sims are more likely and willing to user either network. > I was told > they were, but when I asked why were Cingular customers not affected > then, the answer I got was, "I don't know." What MIGHT be happening in this case is that someone in Cingular's engineering department mucked things up and set up the switching software so that all calls, regardless of whether they were for Cingular Orange or blue customers, would route to orange towers only. The Blue phones, which by default don't listen to orange towers unless they absolutely have to, would then not receive these calls, and the network would simply assume that the phones were turned off, thus rolling the calls to voicemail. This would of course not affect outgoing calls because the towers and all outgoing routing functions are workign just fine; the blue towers were only cut out of the loop when it came to incoming calls. This is of course, just a theory. It's certainly plausible though. > At one point we were given a code, #002# then told to turn off the > phone. We did that and when the phones came back on, they worked, but > only for about ten minutes, then they failed again. Any idea what that > was about? That code seems to send an instruction to the cell network to turn off call fowarding. If my above theory is right, then this would make sense: your phone basically sent a command to the switch saying "I'm OVER HERE. Send all calls to ME." This instruction would then work for a while, but would ultimately get overridden again by the default route programming, reverting back to the same old problem until you re-issue the command. SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. > What MIGHT be happening in this case is that someone in Cingular's > engineering department mucked things up and set up the switching [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would simply assume that the phones were turned off, thus rolling the > calls to voicemail. Hmmmmm. Interesting. But how does that reconcile with my getting a voicemail notification immediately after the caller leaves the message? Are VM notifications handled separately? And then there are the situations where the VM notification didn't happen for over an hour after the caller left the message, with the phone turned on and showing a good signal... >... A better way to say this is that both Cingular and AT&T >calls can be handled by either type of tower, BUT, if both happen to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >life unless there aren't any to be "heard" nearby, and only then will >the phone try a Cingular tower. More precisely, your handset will prefer the Home network programmed into the SIM card as long as there is a "usable" Home network signal, even when it gets a much better signal from a non-Home network tower. That's just the way GSM works. Thus ATTWS handsets locked to ATTWS SIMs will always prefer the ATTWS (blue) network, and only roam on Cingular (orange) when there is no "usable" ATTWS (blue) signal. Likewise Cingular handsets locked to non-ENS Cingular SIMs will always prefer the Cingular (orange) network, and only roam on ATTWS (blue) when there is no "usable" Cingular (orange) signal. Unlocked phones (with the necessary bands), regardless of logo, will prefer the Home network of the actual SIM card in use. >Though, phones with newer 64K sims are >more likely and willing to user either network. Newer 64K Cingular SIMs are ENS-capable. With an ENS-capable handset (and only with an ENS-capable handset), the Home network can be programmed OTA (over the air) by Cingular to either blue (ATTWS) or orange (Cingular). Otherwise, ENS is just like non-ENS with regard to network preference; e.g., ENS programmed to Home on ATTWS (blue) will always prefer ATTWS (blue) over Cingular (orange). In other words, ENS isn't "more likely and willing to user either network" on a automatic, dynamic basis. >What MIGHT be happening in this case is that someone in Cingular's >engineering department mucked things up and set up the switching >software so that all calls, regardless of whether they were for Cingular >Orange or blue customers, would route to orange towers only. Very, very doubtful -- an essential part of GSM systems is routing calls to whichever network and cell a given SIM is registered to by a mobile device. >The Blue >phones, which by default don't listen to orange towers unless they >absolutely have to, would then not receive these calls, and the network >would simply assume that the phones were turned off, thus rolling the >calls to voicemail. GSM handsets actually "listen" to all towers that have usable signals, even when registered on a Home network. >This would of course not affect outgoing calls >because the towers and all outgoing routing functions are workign just >fine; the blue towers were only cut out of the loop when it came to >incoming calls. A GSM handset has to register itself with a given tower before being able to initiate a call. >This is of course, just a theory. It's certainly plausible though. Not really. There can of course be registration failures, but that's why GSM handsets are programmed to register themselves periodically -- no manual intervention of special command is necessary. Bottom line is that this sounds like just a "normal" tower problem, probably one that would affect multiple subscribers. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> This is so funny...I have had Cingular for 2 years without problem unti the last two months. Massive error/dialing codes, 8 out of 10 dropped calls...etc...ha handsets replaced x2 already..same problem. (LG and Motorola V40 phones). Called Cingular...here's a new twist....they said "your in a grea coverage area, we don't know why this is happening" (chicago) and whe asked if the merger is affecting the towers in the area the respons was "well if a tower is down in your area, then your signa automatically gets routed to the AT&T towers"...huh? Haven't they been telling people the opposite....I acutally asked hi to repeat that because I thought I had just hallucinated tha response...but NO he did say that. Have jumped thru every hoop Cingular has asked me to jump thru an still no decent service... We are getting handset number 3 tomorrow...I was told that after times they would send a different brand of phone... They are a shady bunch....they conviently offered to "upgrade" m hubby's phone (V400) free of charge because they could see just ho many dropped calls he was having....but wait there's a catch (isn' there always)... I would have to sign a new two year agreement with them....I actuall was so shocked I couldn't speak.... If the 3rd handset still doesn't provide service, I have no recours (if they don't allow contract to be voided) but to take steps toward litigation. I've been battered and bruised enough by this company. I have been a good customer, always paid my bills on time and never ha any issue up until now...I think they would value my business rathe then treat me like something they scraped off their shoe -- dazedandconfused > This is so funny...I have had Cingular for 2 years without problem until > the last two months. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Called Cingular...here's a new twist....they said "your in a great > coverage area, we don't know why this is happening" wow, deja vu for me. Everything you've said so far, has happened to me. >This is so funny...I have had Cingular for 2 years without problem until >the last two months. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >any issue up until now...I think they would value my business rather >then treat me like something they scraped off their shoe. I tried 2 v400s about 6 months ago and cancelled service after a week. Now I have a RAZR and it's like night and day. Part of that could be network improvement but I borrowed an old Nokia at the time and it worked better for sure at my office. My guess is that the network integration probably has something to do with the problem since it worked previously. That should eventually sort itself out but won't help in the meantime. >I tried 2 v400s about 6 months ago and cancelled service after a week. >Now I have a RAZR and it's like night and day. > >Part of that could be network improvement but I borrowed an old Nokia >at the time and it worked better for sure at my office. Most or all was probably network improvement -- the RAZR isn't that different from the V400 in terms of RF capability. As for the Nokia, there may have been other differences (e.g., band capability) that explain the difference -- the V400 is pretty good RF performance. >My guess is that the network integration probably has something to do >with the problem since it worked previously. That should eventually >sort itself out but won't help in the meantime. Agreed. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >Called Cingular...here's a new twist....they said "your in a great >coverage area, we don't know why this is happening" (chicago) and when >asked if the merger is affecting the towers in the area the response >was "well if a tower is down in your area, then your signal >automatically gets routed to the AT&T towers"...huh? Indeed -- if all Home towers are completely down (no usable Home network signal), blue Home SIMs will roam automatically on orange, and vice versa. >They are a shady bunch....they conviently offered to "upgrade" my >hubby's phone (V400) free of charge because they could see just how [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I would have to sign a new two year agreement with them....I actually >was so shocked I couldn't speak.... How is that at all "shady?" That's SOP for an upgrade as compared to replacement. >If the 3rd handset still doesn't provide service, I have no recourse >(if they don't allow contract to be voided) but to take steps towards >litigation. I've been battered and bruised enough by this company. First, return all subsidy equipment, and insist that your account be closed without termination charges. >I have been a good customer, always paid my bills on time and never had >any issue up until now...I think they would value my business rather >then treat me like something they scraped off their shoe. No offense, but I think you're being unrealistic. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > >I have been a good customer, always paid my bills on time and never had > >any issue up until now...I think they would value my business rather > >then treat me like something they scraped off their shoe. > > No offense, but I think you're being unrealistic. There goes Navas, shilling for the cell companies again. He's being VERY realistic. > I have been a good customer, always paid my bills on time and never had > any issue up until now...I think they would value my business rather > then treat me like something they scraped off their shoe. Welcome to the way the world works now - almost no company cares about any customer anymore (unless you spend a ridiculously large amount with them). If you leave, there'll be a dozen more to replace you in an instant. This pretty much holds true with any company anywhere that I've dealt with that has sucked in some way or another that I've had to leave. brian SignatureIf you want to reply to this message by mail, you will have to change the reply address to beuchaw@beuchaw.net its called growing pains. also a 64k sim will do nothing for you if you dont have an ens capabl phone. it wont do anything for you if you do, depending on you prefered network. ens does nothing more than help with tower loa balancing, it does not make your phone lock onto the strongest signal. if youre a blue customer ignore the above, it does not apply to you! lol if you are orange and get a weak signal on your home network, do som searching and learn how to enable manual network selection on you phone. if you have tdma you won't for long. Join the rest of the world an update to a new phone. everything will improve as soon as the intergration is completed >its called growing pains. No, it's called breach of contract. You can't ethically hold a customer to a 24-month contract, but only allow them to use 18 months of it without paying absorbant rates for equipment. You're still obligated to provide 6 more months of service. This is why class-action lawsuits exist. >if you have tdma you won't for long. Join the rest of the world and >update to a new phone. The contract doesn't toss in a clause that says, "Oh, and you'll have to buy some new equipment too!" If the customer has to pay for service, the provider has to provide service at a reasonable level. Period. This doesn't come with the stipulation that the user has to extend a contract in order to use it (but still pay for it if they cannot), nor does it come with a stipulation that they would be able to use their equipment for only 75% of the contract period. >everything will improve as soon as the intergration is completed. Everything will improve when Cingular honors the contracts into which it or it's acquired companies has entered with customers. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner > No, it's called breach of contract. You can't ethically hold a > customer to a 24-month contract, but only allow them to use 18 months > of it without paying absorbant rates for equipment. "absorbant rates". That's a new one on me. Exorbitant rates. >> No, it's called breach of contract. You can't ethically hold a >> customer to a 24-month contract, but only allow them to use 18 months [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Exorbitant rates. You're correcting when tons of people don't even have a clue on the difference between to and too or your and you're?! If you want erudition usenet is not the place to find it! - - >"absorbant rates". That's a new one on me. > >Exorbitant rates. ::chukle:: It was late. Apparently I was more tired than I thought. Though absorbant rates could be handy around the house. MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>its called growing pains. > >No, it's called breach of contract. Really? What specific clauses (actual quotations please)? >You can't ethically hold a >customer to a 24-month contract, but only allow them to use 18 months >of it without paying absorbant rates for equipment. You're still >obligated to provide 6 more months of service. Cingular is still providing service. That coverage isn't prefect in all areas is a given and specifically disclaimed. >This is why class-action lawsuits exist. Class actions mainly exist to enrich lawyers. >If the customer has to pay for service, the provider has to provide >service at a reasonable level. Period. True, and if service has substantially degraded in a verifiable way, then the service agreement is null and void. Caveat: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. That said, I'm pretty confident that a complaint to the BBB would get this resolved, and if not, that Small Claims Court would. Of course whether you pursue available remedies or not is your choice, but you really don't have much complaint if you fail to do so. I speak from experience: I had a dispute with Cingular a couple of years ago that was quickly and amicably resolved in my favor after I filed a complaint with my local BBB. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>No, it's called breach of contract. > >Really? What specific clauses (actual quotations please)? I'd have to find a backup with my ATTWS contract on it. They had a reasonable service clause that exempts them from breaching due to interuptions in service, but it also claimed reasonable service, and 20-25% success rate on completed connections is probably not what the average prudent person would classify as "reasonable". The only contract I have access to at the moment is Cingular's, which is irrelevant. >>You can't ethically hold a >>customer to a 24-month contract, but only allow them to use 18 months [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Cingular is still providing service. That coverage isn't prefect in all areas >is a given and specifically disclaimed. They're not providing her a reasonable level of service. It's a far cry between "isn't perfect in all areas", and "4 out of 5 calls drop before connection". >>This is why class-action lawsuits exist. > >Class actions mainly exist to enrich lawyers. Agreed. But they are also the only way to get the attention of a company as large as Cingular. >>If the customer has to pay for service, the provider has to provide >>service at a reasonable level. Period. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >confident that a complaint to the BBB would get this resolved, and if not, >that Small Claims Court would. You keep saying that, but you weren't providing any suggestions. I think the BBB is a good starting point and I appreciate the guidance. >Of course whether you pursue available remedies or not is your choice, but you >really don't have much complaint if you fail to do so. True, but at the same time, I have little complaint, nor do I have time to spend fighting a battle for her service. She's the customer that is so unhappy, and as a student, doesn't have the time or resources to spend hours focusing on this. >I speak from experience: I had a dispute with Cingular a couple of years ago >that was quickly and amicably resolved in my favor after I filed a complaint >with my local BBB. I appreciate the information. That will be my next stop. Thanks again, MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>Really? What specific clauses (actual quotations please)? > >I'd have to find a backup with my ATTWS contract on it. ... I suggest you contact Cingular for a copy of the current contract. >The only contract I have access to at the moment is Cingular's, which >is irrelevant. What's relevant is that Cingular assumed all ATTWS contracts, and probably has the right to modify them, albeit with subscribers having the right to terminate if such modifications are significant. >>Cingular is still providing service. That coverage isn't prefect in all areas >>is a given and specifically disclaimed. > >They're not providing her a reasonable level of service. It's a far >cry between "isn't perfect in all areas", and "4 out of 5 calls drop >before connection". That would have to be proven. >>Class actions mainly exist to enrich lawyers. > >Agreed. But they are also the only way to get the attention of a >company as large as Cingular. I doubt that Cingular is terribly concerned. >>I speak from experience: I had a dispute with Cingular a couple of years ago >>that was quickly and amicably resolved in my favor after I filed a complaint >>with my local BBB. > >I appreciate the information. That will be my next stop. I wish you the best of luck. Let us know how it goes. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>I'd have to find a backup with my ATTWS contract on it. ... > >I suggest you contact Cingular for a copy of the current contract. She's actually bound by the ATTWS contract provisions, not the Cingular contract. Otherwise, she would not be able to participant in a class-action lawsuit. >>The only contract I have access to at the moment is Cingular's, which >>is irrelevant. > >What's relevant is that Cingular assumed all ATTWS contracts, and probably has >the right to modify them, albeit with subscribers having the right to >terminate if such modifications are significant. Yes, but only with notification. They have done neither (modification nor expressed intent to modify) as of yet. >>>Cingular is still providing service. That coverage isn't prefect in all areas >>>is a given and specifically disclaimed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That would have to be proven. The dropped calls show on her billing invoice each month. >>Agreed. But they are also the only way to get the attention of a >>company as large as Cingular. > >I doubt that Cingular is terribly concerned. I don't know.. they budget for individual settlements, but class-action settlements can get expensive. A few of them would get Cingular's attention, I suspect. >>>I speak from experience: I had a dispute with Cingular a couple of years ago >>>that was quickly and amicably resolved in my favor after I filed a complaint [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I wish you the best of luck. Let us know how it goes. Thanks, John- MP- -- "Learning is a behavior that results from consequences." B.F. Skinner >>>I'd have to find a backup with my ATTWS contract on it. ... >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Cingular contract. Otherwise, she would not be able to participant in >a class-action lawsuit. She's actually bound by her current contract, which is with Cingular now that ATTWS no longer exists. >>What's relevant is that Cingular assumed all ATTWS contracts, and probably has >>the right to modify them, albeit with subscribers having the right to >>terminate if such modifications are significant. > >Yes, but only with notification. They have done neither (modification >nor expressed intent to modify) as of yet. She may well have overlooked notification. Does she read all of every bill carefully? ;-) >>>They're not providing her a reasonable level of service. It's a far >>>cry between "isn't perfect in all areas", and "4 out of 5 calls drop [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The dropped calls show on her billing invoice each month. The "4 out of 5 calls [tha |
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