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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / August 2005Analog signals & Cingular cell towers
Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old analog phone signal? No. Why would it want to? What is the purpose? > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old > analog > phone signal? My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction of the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here. > No. Why would it want to? What is the purpose? > > > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old > > analog > > phone signal? Call the police and let them handle it (if she is really missing that is). >My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular >is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > analog >> > phone signal? I believe the only way they could figure out the direction of the signal would be to have 2 or more towers that picked up the phone's ID. From there, based on signal strength, they should be able to triangulate. Then again, I might be assuming that the system is more sophisticated than it may actually be. Get the police involved. They're undoubtedly more likely to get telco cooperation. > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old > > > analog phone signal? The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe it. Cell towers have three antenas and they could easily could use doppler effect for direction finding, but I'm not sure if they do. I'm hoping someone here with actual experience can answer the question for certain. I know of no other place to shop for experts for a second opinion. > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > analog > > > phone signal? > The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is > Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe it. At that late stage (29 days) there's another factor to consider. Is it believed she might have a cell phone charger with her? I hate to put a damper on the possibilities here, but given that it's an AMPS phone, I fear the battery isn't going to last long and without recharging, and without access to a charger (which I doubt is readily available for such an old phone) it could be long dead by now, and thus not transmitting anything. Not even the most efficient digital cell phones will last 29 days on standby without spending some time plugged into a wall or car socket. > Cell towers have three antenas and they could easily could use doppler > effect for direction finding, but I'm not sure if they do. They can in theory. But, what MAY be causing the problem is that AMPS doesn't have any sort of soft-handoff capability, in other words, it has no ability for a phone to be connected with two or more cell sites to ease the handoff when an active handset moves during a call. This is why when a call was handed off in analog, both parties KNEW and could tell it was happening. The AMPS system was very advanced for its day, but quite rudimentary by current technological standards in that generally one and only one cell site could be formally connected to a handset at once. This greatly limits the possibilities of triangulation. It also depends largely on how Cingular has their AMPS gear configured. I have a feeling they've let the condition of the gear deterioriate quite a bit to the point where it offers only extrmemely basic features and service levels to stay "legal" in the eyes of the FCC. As a result, they might have removed a lot of the gear that normally would have been used for this sort of tracking. They could also be using very few frequencies for AMPS (bandwidth IS limited on Cingular) and configuring multiple analog suites to operate in a "zone" fashion rather than by individual cell site. > I'm hoping > someone here with actual experience can answer the question for certain. I > know of no other place to shop for experts for a second opinion. Unfortuantely, I don't think we can give you a definitive answer without knowing some inside information on what Cingular has done with their AMPS network, how it's configured, and what features and capabilities it still has as opposed to what parts have been left to rot or been cannibalized for TDMA or GSM.  SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. > > The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is > > Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Not even the most efficient digital cell phones will last 29 days on > standby without spending some time plugged into a wall or car socket. Prior to the next day the phone had not logged in since 12/29/04, she never use it. But she did carry a car charger and had be instructed that is was required for use. We suspect she would have had to plug it in to attempt a call, and trigger a login at the tower. Cingular has acknowledged the login at 2:40 pm the next day, but hasn't indicated that a number was dialed. We wonder if she dialed a number, and didn't remember to press the send key. They had been notified just three hour or so before that she was missing, and the police had taken a report and was fully involved. But they did not report the incident until the second phone request from my brother, some 5 days later. > > Cell towers have three antenas and they could easily could use doppler > > effect for direction finding, but I'm not sure if they do. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > capabilities it still has as opposed to what parts have been left to rot > or been cannibalized for TDMA or GSM. That's excellent input, and not something we had thought to consider. We have been afraid their reluctance might be based on the possibility they might have had the chance to save a life and yet took no action. But allowing their AMPS equipment to deteriorate might be hampering their own internal efforts as well. Now I wonder if their reluctance might be based on allowing their equipment to deteriorate below FCC minimums. Upon conclusion, we will be filling a formal written with the FCC, and it might be a good time to pose that suspicion as well. Thanks so much for taking time to post your ideas. >..snip.. > That's excellent input, and not something we had thought to consider. We [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > we will be filling a formal written with the FCC, and it might be a good > time to pose that suspicion as well. I put your questions to a guy that has been awarded five patents covering >digital< cellular systems. Unfortunately, he doesn't know a lot about analog systems. But here is additional data points that might be of help: When a cell phone is turned on, a 'heartbeat' is broadcast to identify the handset/owner. That information is transmitted over the cellular network along with the 'tower' data to a database that verifies you are a customer in good standing. In the >digital world<, the tower and antenna (horn) ID is transmitted with other data in a packet. If you knew the actual antenna used at login, you can estimate a pie slice area from the antenna, limited by the power of the broadcast of the handset and the terrain. At worse, in theory, if the antenna were only one of three, you would have a pie slice ~120 degrees wide and ~five miles radius. That's a big piece of territory, but smaller than all of NE Oklahoma. > >..snip.. > > That's excellent input, and not something we had thought to consider. We [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > pie slice ~120 degrees wide and ~five miles radius. That's a big piece of > territory, but smaller than all of NE Oklahoma. You're absolutly right. We have so many towers in the Tulsa area, just knowing which one did take the login and which other towers would be applicable, would make all the difference to us right now. We have literally dozens of volunteers from her 2 church congregations, and family and friends wanting to help, and have had since day 1. But just knowing it was a Tulsa tower has proven little help besides limiting the search to a 20 or 25 mile radius, and we still can't find her. We have so many trees and foilage here, that a vehicle can be lost from sight just 20' or so off the roadway, and that doesn't speak for creeks and embankments. Thanks for your input. >..... > But just knowing it was a Tulsa [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that a vehicle can be lost from sight just 20' or so off the roadway, and > that doesn't speak for creeks and embankments. Only because efforts so far haven't been fruitful, I'd suggest one more thing that is on the limit of my knowledge: Assume there is a chance someone took or found her cell phone. That first call or sign on could have been someone other than your mother. I just check my unused ATT analog cell phone to verify it has an ESN: electronic serial number. My Sprint devices all use the ESN as an identifier, but Cingular, on digital handsets, use the SIM card for identification. Someone else needs to verify, but I think the handset somehow broadcasts the ESN with the SIM ID to set behavior or performance. Much stolen or found equipment finds it's way to eBay. You would not likely be able to search on the ESN on eBay, but if the device has been sold and put in to service, there is remote chance Cingular would have the ESN and owners name. Sorry I can't be of more assistance. > >..... > > But just knowing it was a Tulsa [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Sorry I can't be of more assistance. Thanks Thurman, that might be a good idea if we don't turn something up soon. However, the phones latest statement was posted to the web late last week. It covers the 30 day period beginning 2 days before she disappeared. Although no calls were listed, it did show a charge for one call. The phone was on a straight rate of 37 cents a minute I believe. When my brother contacted Cingular about the charge with no calls listed, they admitted a call to my home phone number was made at 4:55 pm the day after she disappeared. Since the call was not answered, it was not shown on the bill, but has now been confirmed. I was in an aircraft searching her nearby home town at the time. Also my brother confirmed no phone numbers were programmed into the phone, so it just about had to be her placing the call about 24 hours after she was last seen. No other calls or logins have been admitted my Cingular as yet. So it was my brothers phone, and had not logged in since 12/29/04, and the only call and login made was the day after she disappeared, and was made trying to contact me. But Cingular still insists they can't help for privacy reasons, until they get the subpoena they accepted two weeks ago. > Much stolen or found equipment finds it's way to eBay. You would not likely > be able to search on the ESN on eBay, but if the device has been sold and > put in to service, there is remote chance Cingular would have the ESN and > owners name. Well, Cigular no longer offers analog service plans, it's highly unlikely that they will activate an AMPS phone. What remains of their AMPS service is reerved mainly for stalwarts who have never upgraded their phones, for OnStar, and for "last resort" roaming for people with dual-mode phones. SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. >> Much stolen or found equipment finds it's way to eBay. You would not >> likely be able to search on the ESN on eBay, but if the device has [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their phones, for OnStar, and for "last resort" roaming for people with > dual-mode phones. Even Onstar has seen the light. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >You're absolutly right. We have so many towers in the Tulsa area, just >knowing which one did take the login and which other towers would be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >that a vehicle can be lost from sight just 20' or so off the roadway, and >that doesn't speak for creeks and embankments. You're making the assumption that the closest tower would have handled the call, thus narrowing your search. That's not a valid assumption -- AMPS has considerable range, and a phone might actually use a more distant tower, depending on a several factors (e.g., terrain, tower capacity). Thus knowing the exact tower probably won't give you much (if any) more information than you have now. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each tim you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person eac time? Also, who are you speaking with -- customer service? or hav you gotten beyond them? Who you talk to is half the battle. I recommend speaking with 2- people continuously (any more = chaos, any less = possibility of th ball dropping). Also, push and push and push until you get to a to tier, or someone who has the knowledge to assist you > I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each time > you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person each [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ball dropping). Also, push and push and push until you get to a top > tier, or someone who has the knowledge to assist you. Typically, a police department assigns an chief investigator to the case, and that's the person that runs the show. That's the same person he should be talking to. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > > I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each time > > you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person each [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > case, and that's the person that runs the show. That's the same person > he should be talking to. The detective is certainly in the loop, but having no more luck with Cingular than we have, he has encouraged us to keep persuing them as well. He is not at all the narrow minded or controlling type and seems happy to recieve all the help he can get. But is being hampered by the same subponia nonsense as everyone else. > I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each time > you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person each [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ball dropping). Also, push and push and push until you get to a top > tier, or someone who has the knowledge to assist you. Actually we have just been taking what ever we can get. We just have to coax what ever we can until they begin insisting on a subponia, and try our luck with someone else later. I think the detective found out it was a Tulsa tower through a friend of a friend. Last week someone my brother contacted indicated it was a Tulsa tower as well, but they were not sure which one. When a charge for a single phone call showed up on the bill last Thursday, my brother was finally able to get someone to tell him that is was my home phone number that was called, but two hours after her phone logged in. But it seems each contact ends with the insistance for a subponia. The state's attorney generals office issued a subponia on the 12th, but a Cingular rep indicated to them three days later (the 15th) during a follow up call that the subponia had been lost. So the AGs office faxed it to them three times on the 15th. No news since, but we are hoping for next week. Seems ironic to us that Cingular's insistance on a subponia has been based on privacy issues, yet the only call my step mother has made on the phone in the past 8 years, was an attempt to contact me the day after she disappeared. And the phone belongs to my brother, the person making all the inquires. My brothers first call was to alert them to the situation the very next day, just 3 hours before the phone logged in. >>>The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is >>>Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > Thanks so much for taking time to post your ideas. On a cell phone, a number isn't "dialed" until the Send/Call button is pressed. You can punch in all the digits you want, but until the magic button is pressed, they're just digits held in the phone's memory. When the magic moment arrives, the digits are sent all at once. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I > think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction of > the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here. Oh, okay... reading further... Any wireless service provider would be reluctant to release such info to anyone, including law enforcement, without a Title 3 warrant. OTOH, if the situation truly is a life and death situation, the provider may choose to not wait on a warrant to be issued to begin data collection, but releasing anything learned would still require a warrant. Suppose your step mother had simply decided to step out incognito and finish her life privately refusing further contact with you or anyone else she has known? Sans a warrant, the provider would be seriously remiss to provide any viable information to you, and in fact, if my supposition turned out to be accurate, would subject the provider to actionable offenses of a civil and criminal nature for violating the privacy rights of your step mother. There is such a thing as a "welfare" warrant. It could be used by law enforcement to contact your step mother on your behalf to determine her state of mind and intent while keeping her location private. What I don't know is whether a welfare warrant qualifies as a Title 3. Luck in your endeavour. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' Cingular was contacted by my brother, the owner of the phone and account, about 11a.m. the next day. She turned on phone on just three hours later, but no calls have been made to date. It was the first time the phone had been turned on in 7 months, per Cingular. However Cingular never contacted anyone, and would not admit the phone had been turned on for about 6 more days, and two more phone calls from my brother. My step mother would have never gone incognito. Her cherished pets were abandoned. She was a 40 year founding member of her church yet contacted neither her sisters or church friends. Her bank account has not been touched, she kept little cash at home. She would not drive on expressways, or after dark, and she has always asked to be driven in those instances. In the past few days a subponia has been issued by the state's Attorney Generals's Office, although it was my brother's phone, and of course he is fully cooperating with the family and police. I'm trying to determine what kind of information could have, or should have been available the very next day, as well as the days following. In our opinion, Cingular is clearly not cooperating with anyone, including the police department, they contacted no one when the phone was turned on. That's why I am soliciting here for expert opinions, hopefully from persons familiar with these type of systems, to see what can be done now, or should have been done the day the phone was turned on. > > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular > > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Luck in your endeavour. > Cingular was contacted by my brother, the owner of the phone and account, > about 11a.m. the next day. She turned on phone on just three hours later, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > familiar with these type of systems, to see what can be done now, or should > have been done the day the phone was turned on. Tom I'm trying to empathize with your situation as well as any stranger can, and I'm certainly don't want to sound like I'm defending Cingular in particular. However, Cingular, like any provider, has a office somewhere (Atlanta?) that serves as a single point-of-contact for this type of thing (Subpoena Compliance Dept). Ordinarily, privacy laws and corporate policies that support them going to require a warrant to release any info about a customer, so getting law enforcement officially involved to at least this level should be priority one. Beyond that, yes, rules and policies have been bent in the interest of brevity, but the release of sensitive info will only occur under the highest scrutiny possible. In the interest of spreading the wealth, any business that obtains, records, uses, and retains personally identifiable detailed information about a customer is held to the same level of responsibility, ie. financial, medical, municipal, etc. For your reference: Title 1 = billing and usage records, ie. historical only Title 2 = real-time digital data only (digits dialed) and Title 1 above Title 3 = real-time & record analog data (voice) and Title 1 & 2 above You'll notice there's no mention of location info, because there's no current provision in any of the above criminal warrant requirements for it. In these circumstances, the term "life or death" emergency are paramount for action. Location info has always been provided (within technological limits) for 911 calls, given the presumptive nature of calling an emergency number. Yes, improvements have been made for homing in on a handset's location, but only if the caller dials 911. Outside of that event, anything more is a crap shoot, especially when dealing with Homeland Security. Keywords = health and welfare It may also serve to understand that Cingular will only be able to respond with info gleaned from their own internal systems, other providers would have to supply their own cards to the table independently. Keyword = roaming. I hope this has been helpful for you in your time of concern. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' I appreciate your input Jer, but that's not really the question. What myself and the rest of the family is trying to determine is what was then, and is now, technologically possible. The owner of the phone (by brother) is the person asking for the information. Requests for this information has been requested by the police department with his blessing since day 2. The police department and state's Attorney General's Office determined a subponia was the approiate course of action, and was what was stated by Cingular as being required. I see no need to second guess any of them, but will certainly keep your suggestions in mind in the event the subponia doesn't yeild favorable results. To the best of our knowledge, based on what Cingular has admitted, the login was received on one of their local towers, so roaming and other shared services shouldn't be a problem. But at this point, they are telling some of us they can't determine which tower took the login. Thanks for your input, Tom > > Cingular was contacted by my brother, the owner of the phone and account, > > about 11a.m. the next day. She turned on phone on just three hours later, [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > I hope this has been helpful for you in your time of concern. > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I > think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction of > the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here. At the very least, they should be able to find out which cell the phone logged into. Chances are they won't give YOU that information, but the they will give it to police, if compelled to do so. SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. > > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular > > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > logged into. Chances are they won't give YOU that information, but the > they will give it to police, if compelled to do so. By which cell, do you mean which tower? The information has been requested by the police department, and is now the subject of a subponia from the state's attorney generals office. But the subponia was issued on the 12th, and as of the 26th we were not aware it had been answered yet. >>>My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > subponia was issued on the 12th, and as of the 26th we were not aware it had > been answered yet. Ordinarily, when a telecom provider is notified of a warrant (yes, there is an audit trail), that company has 24 hours to acknowledge receipt of the warrant. This acknowledgement does not constitute compliance - it merely certifies receipt. However, once that acknowledgement occurs, that company is encumbered for the duration of it's terms, or has another 24 hours to file a "no cause" order stipulating why they can't/shouldn't comply. The occurance of the latter option is extremely rare. Any company encumbered under a warrant is also bound to discuss it's very existence *only* with the agency that requested the warrant, and *only* the details related to maintain their compliance. Trust me, there are no exceptions. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > >>>My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But > > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > and *only* the details related to maintain their compliance. Trust me, > there are no exceptions. Actually on a follow up call from the state's attorney general's office on the 15th, they admitted having lost it (the subponia). It was faxed again the same day. But as of late last week, or about the 25th or 26th, no one is aware of their compliance. I talked to the Tulsa detective who is in contact with the attorney general's office on Friday the 26th, and he still hasn't received anything. My brother had spoke with a contact in the SGA office earlier in the week as well. > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old analog > phone signal? Of course. Radio is radio. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' Tom, Check out this Wired magazine article from 11 years ago, especially page 2 about half way down the page. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.01/phreaks.html > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old analog > phone signal? > Tom, > > Check out this Wired magazine article from 11 years ago, especially > page 2 about half way down the page. > > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.01/phreaks.html Thanks for the reference Spammer, it's certainly a lot of food for thought. It's a shame you can't find guys like that in the phone book. |
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