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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / November 2005TDMA to GSM
I manage my company's cellular services. The majority of our cell phones are GSM, but I have approx 30 or so still on TDMA. My rep thinks migrating these to GSM is a good idea and says it would even save us money. Most of the people with the TDMA service need a phone upgrade already. My question is, would there be a downside to migrating these people over to GSM? > I manage my company's cellular services. The majority of our cell > phones are GSM, but I have approx 30 or so still on TDMA. My rep > thinks migrating these to GSM is a good idea and says it would even > save us money. Most of the people with the TDMA service need a phone > upgrade already. My question is, would there be a downside to > migrating these people over to GSM? Lots of pluses but really only one negative and it doesn't affect everyone or even most. Despite what Cingular's coverage map would have you believe, many of their roaming partners HAVE NOT converted from TDMA to GSM yet--or are still in test mode. Mostly rural areas and small towns (under 10k) but that can really impact someone travelling by car. If any of your TDMA users do a lot of travelling I'd make sure (via that carriers web site or customer service--like I said Cingular's is a bit "optimistic") that the areas they frequent are actually GSM or their new GSM-only phone will be useless. It's changing pretty fast but I didn't have to go very far out of Dallas a couple of weeks ago before I lost GSM.  SignatureJud Dallas TX USA > carriers web site or customer service--like I said Cingular's is a bit > "optimistic") that the areas they frequent are actually GSM or their new > GSM-only phone will be useless. For one specific location, customer service can email a coverage map that is pretty specific. They could at least make valid comments about a few different areas. http://www.rahul.net/dold/clarence/att-gsm-95461.png The red pin is the center of my zip code. The blue tower at the bottom is the nearest tower. The sharp cutoff is where a non-AT&T carrier provided roaming coverage. Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 How do the employees that have the gsm phones like the service? Could the 30 tdma users trade for a short time with some of the gsm users? Perhaps open 30 new gsm accounts. Use the trial period. Cancel the new accounts. Then upgrade the tdma users that were happy with the gsm trial, and for the ones that don't, do a trial period with a different carrier. > I manage my company's cellular services. The majority of our cell > phones are GSM, but I have approx 30 or so still on TDMA. My rep > thinks migrating these to GSM is a good idea and says it would even > save us money. Most of the people with the TDMA service need a phone > upgrade already. My question is, would there be a downside to > migrating these people over to GSM? Some of this depends on your location. The greatest downside my be in NOT upgrading the TDMA users. As of this summer, Cingular was "optimizing" their TDMA network which involved shutting down some TDMA sites in locations where there are duplicate sites nearby. This has the effect of deteriorating service. In our region, where there was no Cingular service, there has been no change since there is no duplication. There is also an end date for TDMA service, sometime in the first 3 months of 2008. The TDMA/GSM argument ends then. GSM is expanding quickly, and there has been few complaints about loss od service from TDMA. Here in the west it is a little more chancy. Not because there is so much TDMA, but because there is still so much analog which is accessable from TDMA phones. Since the end of TDMA is in sight, I would go ahead and set up the remaining empoyees with GSM, but keep a few TDMA phones active, just in case. I bet they won't be needed, but there will be some level of comfort that they can switch back, but only for 2 years. Bill Radio Click for Wireless Reviews at: http://www.mountainwireless.com > I manage my company's cellular services. The majority of our cell > phones are GSM, but I have approx 30 or so still on TDMA. My rep > thinks migrating these to GSM is a good idea and says it would even > save us money. Most of the people with the TDMA service need a phone > upgrade already. My question is, would there be a downside to > migrating these people over to GSM? As far as I know, there is no FCC requirement for tdma to be maintained until the first 3 months of 2008, nor any requirement for it to be turned off then. What do you base that date on? It is my guess that any tdma carrier that has overlaid a 3G network will turn tdma off as soon as practical, as soon as it stops making a profit, in cingular's case maybe as soon as early 2006. > Some of this depends on your location. The greatest downside my be in NOT > upgrading the TDMA users. As of this summer, Cingular was "optimizing" [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>upgrade already. My question is, would there be a downside to >>migrating these people over to GSM? > As far as I know, there is no FCC requirement for tdma to be > maintained until the first 3 months of 2008, nor any requirement for > it to be turned off then. What do you base that date on? It is my > guess that any tdma carrier that has overlaid a 3G network will turn > tdma off as soon as practical, as soon as it stops making a profit, in > cingular's case maybe as soon as early 2006. In 2008, the sunset period for AMPS will occur. Because AMPS is basically an integral part of TDMA, it would make sense to keep TDMA running until AMPS must be shut off, especially since they can share channels. Otherwise, all the current TDMA users would be forced to AMPS, probably encountering capacity problems. >> As far as I know, there is no FCC requirement for tdma to be >> maintained until the first 3 months of 2008, nor any requirement for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >In 2008, the sunset period for AMPS will occur. Actually just an expiration of the AMPS mandate -- carriers are free to continue to provide AMPS service if they wish to do so. Many (most?) probably won't, because it's an inefficient use of expensive spectrum. >Because AMPS is >basically an integral part of TDMA, They are actually different (other than sharing the same FDM channel structure, just as GSM does). >it would make sense to keep TDMA >running until AMPS must be shut off, especially since they can share >channels. Individual channels are either AMPS or TDMA (or GSM), not more than one, and TDMA (IS-136) channels are being migrated to GSM (also based on TDMA). >Otherwise, all the current TDMA users would be forced to >AMPS, probably encountering capacity problems. Thus giving them further incentive to switch to some other technology. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> Amps is an integral part of tdma? I don't think so! The FCC does not say that amps must be shut off. It just says that at that time wireless carriers are not required to keep it running. "all the current tdma users"? You mean the oh so small percentage of them that are left. I can see wireless companies turning off their, used to little to be profitable, tdma networks as soon as 2006. There is no requirement to keep them running. >> As far as I know, there is no FCC requirement for tdma to be >> maintained until the first 3 months of 2008, nor any requirement for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > channels. Otherwise, all the current TDMA users would be forced to > AMPS, probably encountering capacity problems. > Amps is an integral part of tdma? I don't think so! The FCC does > not say that amps must be shut off. It just says that at that time [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> channels. Otherwise, all the current TDMA users would be forced to >> AMPS, probably encountering capacity problems. I should have been more clear in stating that the sunset date of the *requirement* of AMPS will occur in 2008, not necessarily the sunset date of the entire technology. TDMA Time Division Multiple Access - a digital radio technique that divides radio spectrum between users using "timeslots", rather than (only) frequency separation or codes, used in GSM and TDMA (IS-136) mobile networks. TDMA is also the term used to describe the digital enhancement of the AMPS analog standard, formerly known as D-AMPS (Digital Advanced Multiple Access). Also, a method of digital wireless communications transmission allowing a large number of users to access (in sequence) a single radio frequency channel without interference by allocating unique time slots to each user within each channel. http://www.technologyforall.com/TechForAll/3GWS.html Here is a good link to a look at TDMA: http://www.privateline.com/Cellbasics/hart-ch3IS-136.pdf I sure hope they have the smarts to wait until GSM coverage is as good as TDMA before they shut TDMA off. That would force me to Verizon since Cingulars GSm coverage just doesn't compare to either their TDMA coverage or with Verizon in my area. > Amps is an integral part of tdma? I don't think so! The FCC does not say > that amps must be shut off. It just says that at that time wireless [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tdma networks as soon as 2006. There is no requirement to keep them > running. It is my understanding that cingular's entire network has been overlaid with gsm. Therefore their entire tdma coverage area is now covered by gsm. > I sure hope they have the smarts to wait until GSM coverage is as good as > TDMA before they shut TDMA off. That would force me to Verizon since [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>tdma networks as soon as 2006. There is no requirement to keep them >>running. > It is my understanding that cingular's entire network has been > overlaid with gsm. Therefore their entire tdma coverage area is now > covered by gsm. Agreed. Possibly you are experiencing problems because former TDMA roaming partners have chosen not to upgrade or upgraded to CDMA? >Amps is an integral part of tdma? I don't think so! The FCC does not >say that amps must be shut off. It just says that at that time wireless [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >profitable, tdma networks as soon as 2006. There is no requirement to >keep them running. And you know how many TDMA customers are left just how? I imagine there are still a good number of people who haven't left TDMA for GSM yet. They are likely on plans that cingular cannot duplicate or their area's GSM coverage has not yet equalled that of the TDMA service. - - Tdma phones have not been sold for many years. They do not last forever, especially the batteries. cingular has launched gsm on their entire network. You can't get more equaled than that. A plan is no good if there is no signal to use. >>Amps is an integral part of tdma? I don't think so! The FCC does not >>say that amps must be shut off. It just says that at that time wireless [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > - - > > Tdma phones have not been sold for many years. ... Cingular was selling TDMA phones last year. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > Tdma phones have not been sold for many years. They do not last >forever, especially the batteries. cingular has launched gsm on their >entire network. You can't get more equaled than that. A plan is no >good if there is no signal to use. I know you love to play Jeopardy but I don't so bear with me. You *still* don't get it! There are still *many* people both native cingular and former ATTWS subscribers who have not converted to GSM and still retain their TDMA handsets many of which are less than two years old. cingular stopped selling TDMA handsets but not the "many years" ago that you claim. cingular only started to sell GSM in their non-GSM areas only since 2002 since there weren't even any GSM 850 handsets on the market before then and cingular hadn't overlaid GSM on anything and the only GSM they had was in California, Nevada, Washington state and in the Carolinas on PCS. >>>Amps is an integral part of tdma? I don't think so! The FCC does not >>>say that amps must be shut off. It just says that at that time wireless [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> - - >> - - > > Tdma phones have not been sold for many years. They do not last > >forever, especially the batteries. cingular has launched gsm on their [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > - - > SignatureI believe my father has used the "insurance" within the last year to get a new TDMA phone after the previous one stopped working. But that may not be the same as just ordering a new one from Cingular. I believe he considers the coverage not as good as a few years ago, which would agree with some reports here, plus cancelling of some "duplicate" coverage with the purchase of AT&T WS by Cingular. He only went to AT&T WS years ago when the very early TDMA coverage by SBC (later Cingular) wasn't good for his purposes. > Tdma phones have not been sold for many years. They do not last > forever, especially the batteries. cingular has launched gsm on their [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - - > > At this point, it isn't just Cingular's network that has to be considered, but the networks of roaming partners. Unless you remain with a pre-paid plan, you will likely roam at some point while driving long distances. I sure noticed a few weeks ago how bad coverage was in Kansas and Nebraska compared to Oklahoma when off the major interstates. We would get signal (my dad on TDMA, myself on GSM). Then it would go away in a short distance. Then back again. But in most cases, we both had signal together or not. A few times, he had signal and I didn't, and once I had it and he didn't. cingular does not have to consider anybody else's network. Their entire network is gsm. They have given the inherited att tdma customers enough time to move off of tdma and become cingular customers or someone else's customers. cingular can turn att's tdma network off anytime they want, with no loss to cingular's customers. > At this point, it isn't just Cingular's network that has to be > considered, but the networks of roaming partners. Unless you remain [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > But in most cases, we both had signal together or not. A few times, > he had signal and I didn't, and once I had it and he didn't. > Tdma phones have not been sold for many years. They do not last > forever, especially the batteries. cingular has launched gsm on their > entire network. You can't get more equaled than that. A plan is no > good if there is no signal to use. Actually, Cingular was selling TDMA phones with new contracted service last year. Some areas, where there was not enough spectrum to run both technologies effectively, Cingular did a "cold" coverage change, where one day it was all TDMA service, and the next day it was all GSM service. In some parts of Florida, including the GTA ("Greater" Tampa Area), the switch was on or around 25 June 2004. During this transition time period, either directly before or directly after the change in coverage, *all* users were allowed to roam on AT&T Wireless. This time was after Cingular won the bid for AT&T Wireless, but before the acquisition was legally and offically approved. That's almost exactly 16 months ago....which is not many years. Depending upon the market, TDMA may not have been sold for many years, if at all (Pacific Bell Wireless and BellSouth DCS were always GSM, which some of the predecessors of Cingular Wireless). Well, they say memory is the second thing to go. If I remember correctly, by the time I stopped selling phones at the end of 2002, cingular in WI was no longer selling tdma. For just how long before that they stopped, I don't recall. Didn't someone post that cingular was not holding any tdma customer to a contract or etf? cingular bought the spectrum and offered an easy transition for the att customers, but did not say that they would stay in the tdma business long term. They were/are quite plain about staying a gsm only company. >> Tdma phones have not been sold for many years. They do not last >> forever, especially the batteries. cingular has launched gsm on their [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > if at all (Pacific Bell Wireless and BellSouth DCS were always GSM, > which some of the predecessors of Cingular Wireless). >>Amps is an integral part of tdma? I don't think so! The FCC does not >>say that amps must be shut off. It just says that at that time wireless [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >there are still a good number of people who haven't left TDMA for GSM >yet. ... As of the end of the 3rd quarter, Cingular has just 18% of subscribers on TDMA, or about 9 million out of over 50 million. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >As of the end of the 3rd quarter, Cingular has just 18% of subscribers on >TDMA, or about 9 million out of over 50 million. > > That's just raw numbers, most of the use is with the GSM network. I would guess a lot of those subscribers are on prepaid or 10 or 20 dollar per month plans, used mainly for emergencies and occasional use. Even if there are that many, 9 million, are they enough to keep the tdma network profitable? And that number is likely dropping quickly. >> As of the end of the 3rd quarter, Cingular has just 18% of subscribers on >> TDMA, or about 9 million out of over 50 million. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would guess a lot of those subscribers are on prepaid or 10 or 20 dollar > per month plans, used mainly for emergencies and occasional use. Jerome, I am happy to provide that information. For the following news page: http://www.mountainwireless.com/news/ for the August 26th article, I interviewed Ritch Blasi, the technical spokesman for Cingular Wireless, who says the expected cutoff date is "the first quarter, 2008". Mr Blasi also outlined how many TDMA customers are still active (10 Million), and points out that while they constitute 20% of their customer base, they only make 10% of the calls. -Bill Radio > As far as I know, there is no FCC requirement for tdma to be maintained > until the first 3 months of 2008, nor any requirement for it to be > turned off then. What do you base that date on? >Mr Blasi also outlined how many TDMA customers are still active (10 >Million), and points out that while they constitute 20% of their customer >base, they only make 10% of the calls Does that 10 million also include those who use cingular's TDMA network through MVNOs such as CallPlus, JusTalk and Beyond Wireless? - - >>Mr Blasi also outlined how many TDMA customers are still active (10 >>Million), and points out that while they constitute 20% of their customer >>base, they only make 10% of the calls > >Does that 10 million also include those who use cingular's TDMA >network through MVNOs such as CallPlus, JusTalk and Beyond Wireless? <http://cingular.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=1346>: "... 93 percent of minutes now on Cingular's GSM network" So hard to say, but seems to me it probably includes roaming partners as well as own subscribers. SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> > <http://cingular.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=1346>: > > "... 93 percent of minutes now on Cingular's GSM network" > > So hard to say, but seems to me it probably includes roaming partners as well > as own subscribers. I saw a similar number in a cellular trade magazine describing the Texas GSM market. Cingular rep used an acronym for something like Total Minutes Used to describe GSM availability. Was misleading as one could say San Antonio, Houston and the Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex support 90% of the revenue and leave 90% of the state out in the cold without GSM. As of the end of the 3rd quarter, per Cingular's reported results, TDMA subscribers are now down to 18%, or about 9 million, and they made only 7% of calls. >Jerome, >I am happy to provide that information. For the following news page: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> until the first 3 months of 2008, nor any requirement for it to be >> turned off then. What do you base that date on? SignatureBest regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> >>Mr Blasi also outlined how many TDMA customers are still active (10 >>Million), and points out that while they constitute 20% of their customer >>base, they only make 10% of the calls. Cingular could shut down TDMA all together in Texas and only loose a small percent of their minutes used base. 95% of their revenue comes from the three major metroplex areas...everyting else is a cost, not profit, center. >>>Mr Blasi also outlined how many TDMA customers are still active (10 >>>Million), and points out that while they constitute 20% of their customer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >from the three major metroplex areas...everyting else is a cost, not >profit, center. It's still a profit center in the sense that subscribers from the three major metroplex areas expect their mobile devices to work elsewhere in Texas. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> MY HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular> |
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