 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups General General TopicsGSMBluetoothProviders AlltelATT WirelessCingularFidoNextelSprint PCST-MobileVerizonManufacturers EricssonNokiaMotorolaCountry Specific Australian GroupUK GroupRelated Topics PocketPCPalmMore Topics ... |
Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / December 2005Tethered Data Connection Plans
Even with a product code, some Cingular outlets have no idea what I'm talking about. Buddy has a $24 per month plan (added to his voice plan) that allows unlimited data while tethered to his laptop and it does not come out of his daytime minutes bucket. While on the road, I visited some Cingular franchises - one said she has done it before, but can't remember how she did it. Radio Shack says it can be done and gave me a product code of MNUN for $19 a month (added to a voice plan). Called a Cingular store where I office out of and manager insisted no such plan exists nor will it work. Told him I had a copy of my buddy's contract in my hand and was using his cellphone tethered to a laptop as we spoke. He still insisted the only plan he could offer was the $79 plan, regardless if it was a handset tethered to laptop or with a data connection card on the laptop. I know the plan exists, its just finding a local store that will under right it. unlimited media net for $19.99 DecTxCowboy Wrote: > Even with a product code, some Cingular outlets have no idea what I'm > talking about. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I know the plan exists, its just finding a local store that will under > right it.  Signaturetroyboy30 > unlimited media net for $19.99 Looked at that, but the Cingular website specifically prohibits laptop tethering for MediaNet. DecTxCowboy Wrote: > > unlimited media net for $19.99 > > Looked at that, but the Cingular website specifically prohibits laptop > tethering for MediaNet. it does? Well thats a shame cause I use it daily to tether as doe everyone else > DecTxCowboy Wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it does? Well thats a shame cause I use it daily to tether as does > everyone else. I don't thing Cingular is likely to crack down on this type of use, even though it violates their terms. The result of a crackdown would not be for users to switch to Cingular's Laptop Connect Unlimited, it would cause users to switch to Verizon's data service which is much faster, and has the same regular price as Cingular's "limited time offer" on Laptop Connect Unlimited (which exists only because of Verizon's pricing of BroadbandAcess. I'm on a grandfatherd unlimited media net plan, and my contract contain no such terms. Check out the price on the UMTS network Unlimited Mobil Internet Data Plan.....$79.99 http://tinyurl.com/9vqq9 SMS Wrote: > > DecTxCowboy Wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > pricing > of BroadbandAcess > I'm on a grandfatherd unlimited media net plan, and my contract contains > no such terms. Same here with my Sprint Vision. The sprint TOS was changed summer of last year to specially prohibit laptop tethering. As John Navas commented, its important to print out the current TOS to cover your posterior. And that "By paying your current bill, you agree to all current TOS" sort of stuff doesn't wash. U.S. Supreme court already made that clear on TOS changes mid-stream. >> I'm on a grandfatherd unlimited media net plan, and my contract contains >> no such terms. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >sort of stuff doesn't wash. U.S. Supreme court already made that clear >on TOS changes mid-stream. Not that I know of -- got an actual citation? SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> >>DecTxCwboy wrote: >>And that "By paying your current bill, you agree to all current TOS" >>sort of stuff doesn't wash. U.S. Supreme court already made that clear >>on TOS changes mid-stream. > > Not that I know of -- got an actual citation? As I recall, a long-distance carrier changed the rates for a business mid-stream. Court said the original pricing plan should stay in place. It was in a trade magazine a few years ago. >>>DecTxCwboy wrote: >>>And that "By paying your current bill, you agree to all current TOS" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >mid-stream. Court said the original pricing plan should stay in place. >It was in a trade magazine a few years ago. In other words, no. Let us know if and when you actually have something verifiable. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> >I'm on a grandfatherd unlimited media net plan, and my contract contains >no such terms. Check out the price on the UMTS network Unlimited Mobile >Internet Data Plan.....$79.99 Current promotion (available through the end of the year) is $60/month. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > Current promotion (available through the end of the year) is $60/month. Not relevant. We're talking about the $24/month plan. >> Current promotion (available through the end of the year) is $60/month. > >Not relevant. We're talking about the $24/month plan. Not true, and there is no $24/month Cingular package. (If you disagree, provide a link.) SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > Not true, and there is no $24/month Cingular package. (If you disagree, > provide a link.) Call your local Cingular store. Ask about product code MNUM. That's what I did. >> Not true, and there is no $24/month Cingular package. (If you disagree, >> provide a link.) > > Call your local Cingular store. Ask about product code MNUM. That's what > I did. Sorry, that was product code MNUN. Mike-November-Uniform-November >> Not true, and there is no $24/month Cingular package. (If you disagree, >> provide a link.) > >Call your local Cingular store. Ask about product code MNUM. That's what >I did. That's MEdia Net Unlimited at $19.99. As I wrote, "there is no $24/month Cingular package." SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > That's MEdia Net Unlimited at $19.99. > > As I wrote, "there is no $24/month Cingular package." WHO CARES WHAT ITS CALLED... its the unlimited data plan from a tethered handset. Cingular calls it the MNUN and says it is $19 for unlimted tethered data access. It exists, Cingular says it exists, users have it. Just because YOU can't get it or find it, does not mean it isn't out there. >> That's MEdia Net Unlimited at $19.99. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >It exists, Cingular says it exists, users have it. Just because YOU >can't get it or find it, does not mean it isn't out there. What part of "there is no >>>$24/month<<< Cingular package" don't you understand?! SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > What part of "there is no >>>$24/month<<< Cingular package" don't you > understand?! Ok...so several Cingular stores offer it, I've seen the contract, someone else here has it. It exists. What part are you missing in theses posts? >> What part of "there is no >>>$24/month<<< Cingular package" don't you >> understand?! > >Ok...so several Cingular stores offer it, I've seen the contract, >someone else here has it. It exists. What part are you missing in >theses posts? No they don't. It doesn't exist. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> this a case for Monty Pythons argument clinic I think this where this misleading I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that last year (fall 04) when I was looking at Cingular there was a $24 plan that was the "media works unlimited" package ( messaging and unlimited data) not a "media net plan" which is straight data - being unlimited =19.95 the "media works unlimited" package was no longer available by the time i got my service feb 05 Since you say your friend is grandfathered in --- he probably has "media works" unlimited package --- which is as I said gone He should stay with that package (messaging and unlimited data) we can argue till were blue in the face Cingular will say there is no such plan If your lucky enough to have a salesperson that has been there longer than a week they may be honest enough to tell you its a now defunct plan Carriers add and drop features at the drop of a marketing idea How many people know that Cingular has 1500 minute anytime plan ( with no roll-over) Saw it on the website -- not the store Seems store (cingular and franchise) web and good old over the phone mail order can make different offers Mark > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > What part of "there is no >>>$24/month<<< Cingular package" don't you > understand?! > we can argue till were blue in the face A concept that is familiar to John Navas > Carriers add and drop features at the drop of a marketing idea A concept that is alien to John Navas >> we can argue till were blue in the face > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > A concept that is alien to John Navas We could argue either side at Mattie's on the Square over a plate of frog legs. ;-0 > We could argue either side at Mattie's on the Square over a plate of frog > legs. ;-0 Would you belive that Matties closed a few months ago? Owners just said "OK, that it..we're gonna retire!" > > That's MEdia Net Unlimited at $19.99. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It exists, Cingular says it exists, users have it. Just because YOU > can't get it or find it, does not mean it isn't out there. As John has repeatedly said, it exists, but Cingular says you are not allowed to use it for tethering a laptop. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com > Not true, and there is no $24/month Cingular package. (If you disagree, > provide a link.) For you convenience, I'll copy and paste part of my OP. ----------------------------------------------------------- Buddy has a $24 per month plan (added to his voice plan) that allows unlimited data while tethered to his laptop and it does not come out of his daytime minutes bucket. While on the road, I visited some Cingular franchises - one said she has done it before, but can't remember how she did it. Radio Shack says it can be done and gave me a product code of MNUN for $19 a month (added to a voice plan). Told him I had a copy of my buddy's contract in my hand and was using his cellphone tethered to a laptop as we spoke. I know the plan exists, its just finding a local store that will under right it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Is English your second language? Just want to make sure. >> Not true, and there is no $24/month Cingular package. (If you disagree, >> provide a link.) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Is English your second language? Just want to make sure. As I wrote, there is no $24/month Cingular package, your childish (and misplaced) sarcasm notwithstanding. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > As I wrote, there is no $24/month Cingular package, your childish (and > misplaced) sarcasm notwithstanding. Ok...so several Cingular stores offer it, I've seen the contract. So my multiple Cingular store information is not as relevant compared to your own singular and Cingular experience. Just wanted to make sure. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DecTxCowboy <dtc_nada_spamo_ramp@swbell.net> > Sent: 11/22/2005 5:38 PM -0500 > Subject: Tethered Data Connection Plans >> As I wrote, there is no $24/month Cingular package, your childish (and >> misplaced) sarcasm notwithstanding. > > Ok...so several Cingular stores offer it, I've seen the contract. So my > multiple Cingular store information is not as relevant compared to your > own singular and Cingular experience. Just wanted to make sure. Recalling my own experience, earlier in 2005, late spring/early summer or thereabouts, the price for MEdia Net Unlimited was reduced from $24.99 to $19.99 per month. Cingular, to my knowledge, didn't tell existing subscribers of the price reduction; you have to request that. So yes, it's believable folks are still paying the $24/month, even though there is no longer the $24/month package, as John has stated. SignatureRJW >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: DecTxCowboy <dtc_nada_spamo_ramp@swbell.net> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> multiple Cingular store information is not as relevant compared to your >> own singular and Cingular experience. Just wanted to make sure. No store offers such a package. >Recalling my own experience, earlier in 2005, late >spring/early summer or thereabouts, the price for MEdia Net [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >though there is no longer the $24/month package, as John has >stated. MEdia Works Unlimited was introduced in early 2004 at $20/month. <http://tinyurl.com/7sfuu> MEdia Net Unlimited was introduced in Feb 2005 at $25/month (*NOT* $24/month). By Aug the price had come down to $19.99/month. Since then there has not been a package at $25/month (or $24/month). SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> >> As I wrote, there is no $24/month Cingular package, your childish (and >> misplaced) sarcasm notwithstanding. > >Ok...so several Cingular stores offer it, ... There is a $20/month Cingular package. There is *NO* $24/month Cingular package. (Are you really this dense, or do you just like to argue?) SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > There is a $20/month Cingular package. There is *NO* $24/month Cingular > package. (Are you really this dense, or do you just like to argue?) Ok...now you're backtracking to cover you a.s. If you were paying attention, the discussion started with me mentioning a $24 plan...you started in with $69, $70 or whatever prices...NOW..NOW you start chiding us for a $4 difference. Oh nevermind.... >> There is a $20/month Cingular package. There is *NO* $24/month Cingular >> package. (Are you really this dense, or do you just like to argue?) > >Ok...now you're backtracking to cover you a.s. Nope. >If you were paying attention, the discussion started with me mentioning >a $24 plan...you started in with $69, $70 or whatever prices...NOW..NOW >you start chiding us for a $4 difference. Nope. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > > There is a $20/month Cingular package. There is *NO* $24/month Cingular > > package. (Are you really this dense, or do you just like to argue?) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Oh nevermind.... Assuming you can read and were paying attention, you ought to have noticed that John has been describing two plans: 1. One at about $20/month, which used to allow tethering, currently does not allow it, but on which you still can tether, even though it is against the rules. 2. One at about $80, currently "on sale" at about $60, which does allow tethering. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com > Assuming you can read and were paying attention, you ought to have > noticed that John has been describing two plans: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 2. One at about $80, currently "on sale" at about $60, which does allow > tethering. Yes, I know...He's been talking about a higher priced plan which has nothing to do with the $19 - $24 plan that I originally posted about. > > Assuming you can read and were paying attention, you ought to have > > noticed that John has been describing two plans: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes, I know...He's been talking about a higher priced plan which has > nothing to do with the $19 - $24 plan that I originally posted about. And he has been saying that the less expensive plan, which he knows about and has repeatedly mentioned, is not intended for tethering, can be used for tethering, but Cingular apparently doesn't want you to use it for tethering. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com > > Current promotion (available through the end of the year) is $60/month. > Not relevant. We're talking about the $24/month plan. The $24 plan is mysterious. I have changed amongst various plans in the last few months. I recently signed up for a 1MB plan, "unlimited for the first month". https://www.cingular.com/media/media_net_purchase At the end of that month, I called to upgrade to unlimited, since it didn't show up on the web as an available feature. I was told that unlimited was $24. I pointed out that the web page listed $19. The rep checked, and put me on a $19.99 plan. I don't know what I would have been charged if she had continued. It seemed like it was in some out of date reference material, maybe Feb 2005. <http://www.cingular.com/download/North%20America%20Rate%20Plan_Brochure_021105.pdf> Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > I was told that unlimited was $24. But...but...John said, "As I wrote, there is no $24/month Cingular package, your childish (and misplaced) sarcasm notwithstanding." >> I was told that unlimited was $24. > >But...but...John said, "As I wrote, there is no $24/month Cingular >package, your childish (and misplaced) sarcasm notwithstanding." And there isn't. All of the current packages are listed at <https://cingular.com/media/media_net_purchase>. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > > I was told that unlimited was $24. > But...but...John said, "As I wrote, there is no $24/month Cingular > package Don't quote me out of context for your argument with John. You said there was a $24 package. He said there wasn't. You are the one who said that the $19 plan was different from the $24 plan. I am saying the $24 rate is obsolete, if it ever was in effect, but does appear in a rate plan brochure printed in Feb of 2005. I provided a link to the current MediaNet pricing, and the online February pdf file. MediaNet Unlimited is $19.99 and prohibits tethering. Data Connect Unlimited $39.99 allows tethering a PDA. Laptop Connect is $59.99, and allows tethering a Laptop. Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > MediaNet Unlimited is $19.99 and prohibits tethering. Read what the legal terms actually say. Cingular is not explicitly prohibiting tethering. They are giving themselves the right to yank customers off of Medianet for tethering, but they stopped short of forbidding it, stating that "MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering." What they are probably looking for is people that are abusing Medianet by excessive use via tethering. It doesn't really matter if you had MediNet prior to the addition of the legalese regarding tethering, Cingular can still remove you from the plan for any reason. If you don't like it, you can sue them, but of course you can't, because you have to go to arbitration. >> MediaNet Unlimited is $19.99 and prohibits tethering. > >Read what the legal terms actually say. MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering. Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering. >It doesn't really matter if you had MediNet prior to the addition of the >legalese regarding tethering, Cingular can still remove you from the >plan for any reason. Actually it does matter, because Cingular can't make a significant change to the terms without letting you out of your subscriber agreement without penalty. >If you don't like it, you can sue them, but of >course you can't, because you have to go to arbitration. It may be possible to have that clause set aside by a court. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the terms without letting you out of your subscriber agreement without > penalty. I'm more interested in the moral issue than the legal issue. I don't think firms I deal with have any obligation to offer me the particular terms I want, any more than I have any obligation to buy from them on the particular terms they want. So if Cingular says "we are selling you this service on condition that you don't use it for tethering," I have a serious problem with using the service for tethering. But looking at the quoted bit above, it looks as though they don't quite say that. It can be read as "we are not providing it for that purpose, and might get annoyed at your using it for that purpose, in which case we can, if we want, remove you from it." Of course, the moral problem would be more serious if my previous experiment with tethering--at a point when I did not think there was any rule against it, and there may not have been--hadn't worked so badly that I eventually gave up on it, with connections rarely lasting more than a few minutes. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com ... > I'm more interested in the moral issue than the legal issue. I don't > think firms I deal with have any obligation to offer me the particular [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and might get annoyed at your using it for that purpose, in which case > we can, if we want, remove you from it." ... I've just read the MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement. Unless I missed it, there is not a word about agreeing not to tether. So as far as I can tell, if I chose to try tethering again, I would not be breaking any agreement, explicit or implicit, with Cingular--merely doing something they don't support and feel free to stop me from doing if they want. Am I missing anything? On a related subject ... . What about PDA/smart phones? If you have a Treo 650, can you use it with Media Net--again, unsupported? SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Am I missing anything? <https://cingular.com/media/media_net_purchase> Bottom of the page: View our MEdia Legal Notices <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal>. Incorporated into the Subscriber Agreement by reference. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal>. > Incorporated into the Subscriber Agreement by reference. That's what I was looking at. "Your use of the service, or signed acknowledgement, will indicate your acceptance of all of the following terms. " That can't refer to the "General Conditions for MEdia Services," which is where the bit about tethering appears, because that bit is preceding, not following. Pretty clearly, the acceptance is of the subscriber agreement, which says nothing I can see about either the "General conditions" or tethering. "You further acknowledge that this Agreement and all other present and future written agreements between you and Cingular Wireless constitute the complete statement of the agreement between you and Cingular Wireless, and that the agreement does not include any other or prior contemporaneous promises, representations or descriptions regarding the Service or the Information even if it were contained in materials provided by Cingular Wireless." For instance, the "general conditions." Again, are there words I am missing? It looks to me as though the subscriber agreement is almost entirely about releasing Cingular from liability either for things you do or for things they do, and explicitly says that it does not include "descriptions" even if from Cingular. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> >Am I missing anything? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >is where the bit about tethering appears, because that bit is preceding, >not following. ... It's in the same document. Whether it's before or after is irrelevant. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > It's in the same document. Whether it's before or after is irrelevant. It is on the same web page. It is not in the "same document" in any legally, morally or logically relevant sense. In particular, it is not in the Subscriber Agreement--and the subscriber agreement is quite explicit about not including other material, including descriptions of the service by Cingular. The web page contains three different documents: * General Conditions for MEdia Services * MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement * DirectBill Service Agreement The first is a description of the service by Cingular. The second and third are agreements between you and Cingular. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> >> >Am I missing anything? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >It is on the same web page. It is not in the "same document" in any >legally, morally or logically relevant sense. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Best of luck in the event you try to make your argument stick. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > On a related subject ... . What about PDA/smart phones? If you have a > Treo 650, can you use it with Media Net--again, unsupported? PDA is specifically mentioned on the "legal" page: <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal> "MEdia Net packages are not available on PDAs, RIM devices, or PC card modems. MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering. " There is a separate PDA-connect plan for $44.99 http://www.cingular.com/sbusiness/data_connect Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > Am I missing anything? Right here, David: Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering. www.cingular.com/media/media_legal > > Am I missing anything? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > www.cingular.com/media/media_legal I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I am agreeing not to tether. The customer agreement is lower down on the same page, says nothing about tethering, and explicitly says that no other statements are incorporated in the agreement, even if made by Cingular. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> > Am I missing anything? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I >am agreeing not to tether. It informs you that MEdia is not for tethering, and that Cingular can remove you from MEdia for tethering. >The customer agreement is lower down on the >same page, says nothing about tethering, and explicitly says that no >other statements are incorporated in the agreement, even if made by >Cingular. The entire document is the agreement, not just the bottom portion -- that argument isn't going to fly. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > The entire document is the agreement, not just the bottom portion -- that > argument isn't going to fly. The entire web page is clearly not the agreement. The agreement is the part after its title: DirectBill Service Agreement. If you read the text, you will see that the part before that is a description of the service. After that we have: MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement Important: Read this agreement before using the service provided by Cingular Wireless. Your use of the service, or signed acknowledgement, will indicate your acceptance of all of the following terms. If this Agreement is unacceptable to you, do not use the Service. Cingular Wireless is willing to provide you the Service only if you agree to be bound by the following terms: "Following" means "following." It doesn't mean "following or preceding." SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> >> www.cingular.com/media/media_legal >> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >The entire web page is clearly not the agreement. ... We'll just have to agree to disagree. Best of luck in the event you ever have to try to make your argument stick. ;) SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I > am agreeing not to tether. The customer agreement is lower down on the > same page, says nothing about tethering, and explicitly says that no > other statements are incorporated in the agreement, even if made by > Cingular. What page, specifically, are you referring to as the customer agreement? Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > > I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I > > am agreeing not to tether. The customer agreement is lower down on the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What page, specifically, are you referring to as the customer agreement? The web page is www.cingular.com/media/media_legal. The relevant part starts with the title "MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement." Not only does it not incorporate by reference the stuff above it, it specifically refers to "the following terms" and explicitly limits the agreement to its text, excluding anything else, including a description of the service by Cingular. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> > I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I >> > am agreeing not to tether. The customer agreement is lower down on the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >agreement to its text, excluding anything else, including a description >of the service by Cingular. Not true. You left out this part: You further acknowledge that this Agreement and ALL OTHER PRESENT AND FUTURE WRITTEN AGREEMENTS between you and Cingular Wireless constitute the complete statement of the agreement between you and Cingular Wireless... [emphasis added] That refers in part to the Cingular Wireless Service Agreement at <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>: 1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available for each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan, feature or promotion selected by you when you activated or changed your Service and are described in a separate Calling Plan, Service Plan or Rate Plan ("Rate Plan") Brochure, in feature or promotional materials, at cingular.com and/or in materials included with your Device (collectively, "Sales Information"), ALL OF WHICH ARE INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE, ARE A PART OF THIS AGREEMENT and were available when you activated or changed Service. To receive copies of Sales Information contact Customer Care. [emphasis added] ... 4. Rates. Your Service rates and other charges and conditions for each Identifier or Device are described in your Sales Information. If you lose your eligibility for a particular Rate Plan, we may change your Rate Plan upon prior notice to you. IF YOU MISREPRESENT YOUR ELIGIBILITY FOR ANY RATE PLAN, YOU AGREE TO PAY US THE ADDITIONAL AMOUNT YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN CHARGED UNDER THE MOST FAVORABLE RATE PLAN FOR WHICH YOU ARE ELIGIBLE. If you select a Rate Plan that includes a predetermined allotment of Services (for example, a predetermined amount of airtime, megabytes or text messages), any unused allotment of Services from one billing cycle will not carry over to any other billing cycle. [emphasis added] ... SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> >>Not only does it not incorporate by reference the stuff above it, it >>specifically refers to "the following terms" and explicitly limits the [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > ... Wrong- not true. In article <YGYhf.171890$zb5.100504@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > constitute the complete statement of the agreement between you and > Cingular Wireless... [emphasis added] You were claiming that material under General Conditions for MEdia Services was incorporated because it was in the same document as Media Nete Subscriber Agreement. You have now abandoned that claim. Your new claim is that a different agreement is also binding on you if you sign it--which is, of course, true, but not the same claim--and that that other agreement incorporates the material in question. When abandoning one assertion and switching to a different one because you realize the initial assertion was mistaken, it is worth saying you are doing so. > That refers in part to the Cingular Wireless Service Agreement at > <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > available when you activated or changed Service. To receive copies of > Sales Information contact Customer Care. [emphasis added] That tells you what they are obliged to provide you at what price--price, features and options. It protects them against your claiming that they are obliged to provide you services that they have not said they are providing. > ... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > ... So far as I can see, someone who buys a plan for which he is eligible and then uses it in a way which Cingular has told him they don't support has not misrepresented his eligibility. The phrasing you have been relying on is "Media Net packages are not intended for tethering," followed by a statement of what Cingular may if it wish do if you use them for a purpose they are not intended for. That statement, unlike the one you quote above, says nothing about changing the charge for services you have already used. The language is "Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering." That's pretty clear. In the case of a pda I think you may have a better case, since the phrasing is "not available for." Arguably, if you tell them your pda is an ordinary cell phone, you are misrepresenting your eligibility. But unless at some point in signing up you assert that you will not use your plan to tether, you are not misrepresenting anything. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >In article ><YGYhf.171890$zb5.100504@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >> Not true. You left out this part: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Services was incorporated because it was in the same document as Media >Nete Subscriber Agreement. You have now abandoned that claim. Nope. >Your new >claim Actually an old claim. >is that a different agreement is also binding on you if you sign >it--which is, of course, true, but not the same claim--and that that >other agreement incorporates the material in question. You don't have to actually sign it to be bound by it. >> That refers in part to the Cingular Wireless Service Agreement at >> <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >claiming that they are obliged to provide you services that they have >not said they are providing. That actually tells you that the other terms are incorporated in your contract with Cingular. >> 4. Rates. Your Service rates and other charges and conditions for each >> Identifier or Device are described in your Sales Information. If you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >and then uses it in a way which Cingular has told him they don't support >has not misrepresented his eligibility. ... I don't think that argument will fly either. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > > > Am I missing anything? > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > other statements are incorporated in the agreement, even if made by > Cingular. So the real issue here is that Cingular states that you can not tether on the media net plan or they can - at their option - cut you off. And you implicitly agree to this. But then you go ahead and use it to tether. I say it is first a moral issue, and then one of will I get caught. Kind of like, hmmm, lying to someone. It's only bad if you get caught. But I will tell you that the Consumer Data Support department will not help you with issues if there is a media net plan and not a data plan of some sort. > > > > Am I missing anything? > > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the media net plan or they can - at their option - cut you off. And you > implicitly agree to this. But then you go ahead and use it to tether. More precisely, they state that it isn't intended for tethering, and if they notice you doing it they are free to cut you off if they want to. > I say it is first a moral issue, and then one of will I get caught. Kind of > like, hmmm, lying to someone. It's only bad if you get caught. On the contrary. The point I was making was that, so far as I can tell, you aren't lying to them and aren't breaking any promises you have made to them. You are simply doing something that might make them decide to cut you off, and they are free to do so. > But I will tell you that the Consumer Data Support department will not help > you with issues if there is a media net plan and not a data plan of some > sort. I already knew that. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com > > I say it is first a moral issue, and then one of will I get caught. Kind of > > like, hmmm, lying to someone. It's only bad if you get caught. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to them. You are simply doing something that might make them decide to > cut you off, and they are free to do so. They are also free to revise their User Agreement to prohibit tethering, yet they have not done so. And they surely do know they have customers using the plan for tethering. Just guessing, but I bet they'd rather have light users pay $20 for MediaNet than nothing for no data plan, especially while their data system is nowhere near capacity. The current system allows them to selectively bump high-usage tethering customers off the Media plan if they think the customer will be willing to pay full price. Signaturejosh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam <http://www.phred.org/~josh/> Updated Bicycle Touring Books List: <http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html> > They are also free to revise their User Agreement to prohibit > tethering, yet they have not done so. That can get sticky. Even though they will say your payment of your bill indicates you accept the revised agreement, could argue what you signed was a contract for specific usage. Lets say you have a credit card and they arbitrarily raise your rates, or a mortgage. >> They are also free to revise their User Agreement to prohibit >> tethering, yet they have not done so. > >That can get sticky. Even though they will say your payment of your bill >indicates you accept the revised agreement, could argue what you signed was >a contract for specific usage. You have a right to terminate without penalty if you don't accept a significant change, but if you continue to use the service, then you have agreed to the change. Like it or not, there's a good deal of case law to support the Cingular position. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> >> > I say it is first a moral issue, and then one of will I get caught. Kind of >> > like, hmmm, lying to someone. It's only bad if you get caught. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >They are also free to revise their User Agreement to prohibit >tethering, yet they have not done so. ... Actually they have, as I've repeatedly explained. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] >>They are also free to revise their User Agreement to prohibit >>tethering, yet they have not done so. ... > > Actually they have, Actually they haven't. >as I've repeatedly explained. And you are still wrong, as I have repeatedly explained. >[SNIP] So, Scott The Wizard, since you're so quick to criticize, tell us what contributions you've actually made. Can't find anything in the Cingular Wireless FAQ Wiki. Is there something else? Or is nastiness all you've got? SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > So, Scott The Wizard, since you're so quick to criticize, tell us what > contributions you've actually made. Can't find anything in the Cingular > Wireless FAQ Wiki. Maybe you should actually read some of my posts. In this thread, I have shown quite a bit of information directly from Cingular, and unlike you I did not clip and selectively paste to suit my own personal agenda. You'll never find anything in your little wireless FAQ from me, because I don't feel the need to contribute to somebody who is constantly posting inaccurate material or posturing opinion as fact. >Is there something else? There's plenty else- you typically ignore it because it is factual information. >Or is nastiness all you've got? Please point out the "nastiness" in my last post- there was none. You seem to be the one getting nasty and childish. >> So, Scott The Wizard, since you're so quick to criticize, tell us what >> contributions you've actually made. Can't find anything in the Cingular >> Wireless FAQ Wiki. > >Maybe you should actually read some of my posts. ... I didn't think so, but thanks for the confirmation. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I didn't think so, but thanks for the confirmation. You'll have to do better than that. > I'm more interested in the moral issue than the legal issue. I don't > think firms I deal with have any obligation to offer me the particular > terms I want, any more than I have any obligation to buy from them on > the particular terms they want. So if Cingular says "we are selling you > this service on condition that you don't use it for tethering," I have a > serious problem with using the service for tethering. Very well put, David. This is something that is quickly forgotten by many consumers. >> >> MediaNet Unlimited is $19.99 and prohibits tethering. >> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >and might get annoyed at your using it for that purpose, in which case >we can, if we want, remove you from it." The serious downside is that without the data package, the charges for your data use could be astronomical. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > The serious downside is that without the data package, the charges for your > data use could be astronomical. I thought the 19.99 package, which I had for a month or two, included unlimited data use. I assume that if they terminate it, for tethering or other reasons, they have to tell you. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com > I thought the 19.99 package, which I had for a month or two, included > unlimited data use. I assume that if they terminate it, for tethering or > other reasons, they have to tell you. Cingular doesn't seem to "tell" you anything. I have had plans changed with no notice. The voicemail has disappeared from one of my phones a couple of times. I had MediaNet canceled twice, both without notice. One I caught because of the $107 bill, the other I happened to notice in looking at my data usage. In neither case did it seem to have anything to do with excess usage. There were external reasons for the change. It seems like asking for any feature to be added or changed on any phone line makes it open season to revert everything back to basic on all lines, or add and subtract packages for no apparent reason. I have had text messaging and internet access pay-as-you go enabled and disabled magically, and international dialing and roaming. All of these seem to be time-associated with some call or activity on my part, just inadvertent by their staff, or system interface. I gather that it is the system interface. I have taken to printing the features page occasionally. Just before and just after the end of the billing period seems like a good idea, using a virtual pdf printer. Then I save those, with time notations. Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 >> The serious downside is that without the data package, the charges for your >> data use could be astronomical. > >I thought the 19.99 package, which I had for a month or two, included >unlimited data use. I assume that if they terminate it, for tethering or >other reasons, they have to tell you. I think so, but all it would take is a notice in your bill, and there's no assurance that you would be told in advance, since you are violating the terms of the agreement. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > assurance that you would be told in advance, since you are violating the terms > of the agreement. As I explained in the post I just sent, I am not violating the terms of the agreement. The MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement says nothing about tethering, and does say that descriptions of the service by Cingular are not included in the agreement. What I am doing is taking an action that gives Cingular the right to terminate the package. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> >> The serious downside is that without the data package, the charges for your >> >> data use could be astronomical. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >tethering, and does say that descriptions of the service by Cingular are >not included in the agreement. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Best of luck in the event you ever have to try to make your argument stick. ;) SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > But looking at the quoted bit above, it looks as though they don't quite > say that. It can be read as "we are not providing it for that purpose, > and might get annoyed at your using it for that purpose, in which case > we can, if we want, remove you from it." Exactly. It doesn't say that they can charge you some exorbitant fee if they decide that your tethered use is excessive, just that they can terminate your MediaNet service. And of course even for those that signed up for MediaNet prior to the change in terms, it still doesn't mean that Cingular can't terminate your MediaNet service, they can do whatever they damn please. The most that they would have to do is to let you out of any early termination fees. Carriers often change terms with subscribers being given the option of terminating service without an ETF. > Of course, the moral problem would be more serious if my previous > experiment with tethering--at a point when I did not think there was any > rule against it, and there may not have been--hadn't worked so badly > that I eventually gave up on it, with connections rarely lasting more > than a few minutes. It may be intentional on the part of Cingular to make tethering unattractive. > > But looking at the quoted bit above, it looks as though they don't quite > > say that. It can be read as "we are not providing it for that purpose, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It may be intentional on the part of Cingular to make tethering > unattractive. Except that other people claim to have done with no serious problem. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> It may be intentional on the part of Cingular to make tethering >> unattractive. > >Except that other people claim to have done with no serious problem. Yet. SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > I'm more interested in the moral issue than the legal issue. > So if Cingular says "we are selling you this service on condition that > you don't use it for tethering," I have a serious problem with using the > service for tethering. I walked in to the Cingular store, and asked which phones would allow me to tether my laptop to the internet. I was sold a Motorola v220, and a MediaBasic package. I wasn't given any instruction on how to tether, so I looked on the cingular page, and found tethering advice. I realized that MediaBasic didn't offer enough data per month, so I added MediaNet. Where does that leave me, in a moral and legal sense? When I added MediaNet 4MB (unlimited for one month) via the web, it was canceled, because you can't have MediaBasic and MediaNet on the same account. I wound up with a $107 bill the first month for excessive data. That was reversed with a phone call to Customer Service. Where does that leave me, in a moral and legal sense? Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5 > > I'm more interested in the moral issue than the legal issue. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Where does that leave me, in a moral and legal sense? In the clear, unless at some point they tell you that they are no longer willing to sell you the service on those terms. > When I added MediaNet 4MB (unlimited for one month) via the web, it was > canceled, because you can't have MediaBasic and MediaNet on the same > account. I wound up with a $107 bill the first month for excessive data. > That was reversed with a phone call to Customer Service. > > Where does that leave me, in a moral and legal sense? Dealing with a firm that makes mistakes but is willing to admit it, apparently. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >In the clear, unless at some point they tell you that they are no longer >willing to sell you the service on those terms. <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal> SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > > >In the clear, unless at some point they tell you that they are no longer > >willing to sell you the service on those terms. > > <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal> As I have pointed out in at least one earlier post, that page has a statement of "General Conditions for MEdia Services" and, below it, "Media Net Subscriber Agreement." The former contains: "MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering. Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering." The latter, which is what the customer is agreeing to, says nothing about tethering. It does say that: " You further acknowledge that this Agreement and all other present and future written agreements between you and Cingular Wireless constitute the complete statement of the agreement between you and Cingular Wireless, and that the agreement does not include any other or prior contemporaneous promises, representations or descriptions regarding the Service or the Information even if it were contained in materials provided by Cingular Wireless." That makes it clear that the description of the service provided by Cingular Wireless under the title "General Conditions for MEdia Services" is not part of the agreement between you and Cingular. So Cingular is telling you that the package is not intended for tethering, and that Cingular reserves the right to remove you from the package for tethering. It is not, however, asking you to agree not to tether. SignatureRemove NOPSAM to email www.daviddfriedman.com >> >In the clear, unless at some point they tell you that they are no longer >> >willing to sell you the service on those terms. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >The latter, which is what the customer is agreeing to, says nothing >about tethering. It does say that: As I have pointed out in at least one earlier post, the entire document is the agreement, not just the bottom part. I don't think your argument is at all persuasive, and I wish you luck should you have to try to make that case. ;) SignatureBest regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ> > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > agreement, not just the bottom part. I don't think your argument is at all > persuasive, and I wish you luck should you have to try to make that case. ;) And as I have pointed out, the entire web page is not the agreement--and says so, quite clearly. I will happily yield to your expertise on cell phone technology, which is much g |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message