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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / June 2006

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All-you-can-eat 3G may not last

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SMS - 14 Jun 2006 15:32 GMT
Good article about unlimited data plans, and statements from Cingular,
Sprint, and Verizon, see:

"http://www.computerpartner.nl/article.php?news=int&id=3549"
GomJabbar - 14 Jun 2006 16:08 GMT
Enjoyed the article - sort of - don't like the implications.

A coworker of mine got cut off from Verizon's EV-DO service for
overuse.  Read downloading movies.  This guy is a video nut.  A couple
of months ago he went to the store and bought over $700 in DVD's.  He
buys all the latest releases whether he thinks he will like them or
not.  I think the reason is, if a friend comes over, he can offer to
show him/her any of the latest movies at his home.  Still, he's nuts in
my opinion.
Frankster - 14 Jun 2006 18:09 GMT
The way I read it, the implications in the article are... they will have to
stop freeloaders sooner or later, and, the rates will have to go up to
support the supposed higher network demand in the future.

My personal view is... yes, they will have to stop freeloading, but the
rates will go *down* due to higher consumer demand and use (if everybody
wants data, and pays, the fee will not be so bad). Like the Internet
globally, I believe the infrastructure will increase and eventually support
lots of users on relatively low cost high speed access. Lower than the
$59/mo today.

Especially with all the FREE Internet stuff popping up all over. It will
become harder and harder to pay for away-from-home Internet when it is
available free in so many places with more popping up every day.

Hey, we all can have an opinion. I like mine :)

-Frank

> Good article about unlimited data plans, and statements from Cingular,
> Sprint, and Verizon, see:
>
> "http://www.computerpartner.nl/article.php?news=int&id=3549"
SMS - 14 Jun 2006 18:16 GMT
> The way I read it, the implications in the article are... they will have to
> stop freeloaders sooner or later, and, the rates will have to go up to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> lots of users on relatively low cost high speed access. Lower than the
> $59/mo today.

Yes, if they want widespread acceptance, prices will have to come down.
You'll probably end up with a tiered pricing structure, with a lower
cost plan that allows relatively unlimited nights and weekends (a limit
that no one would reach unless they were doing something that violated
the terms of service for unlimited), but limited use during normal
business hours.
Isaiah Beard - 15 Jun 2006 16:09 GMT
> The way I read it, the implications in the article are... they will have to
> stop freeloaders sooner or later, and, the rates will have to go up to
> support the supposed higher network demand in the future.

You know, I remember everyone saying the same thing about
all-you-can-eat *wired* broadband, such as DSL and cable.  People were
worried about the 2-percenters... the fabled small minority of power
users who account for the vast majority of bandwidth usage.  Comcast was
(and sometimes still is) down on anyone being a top talker on their
network, even though they never tell you what the threshold is.

Even so, most broadband networks haven't crashed in speed shortages yet.

> My personal view is... yes, they will have to stop freeloading, but the
> rates will go *down* due to higher consumer demand and use (if everybody
> wants data, and pays, the fee will not be so bad). Like the Internet
> globally, I believe the infrastructure will increase and eventually support
> lots of users on relatively low cost high speed access. Lower than the
> $59/mo today.

Hopefully so.  Sprint's already going in that direction with the $39.99
PAM plan.

> Especially with all the FREE Internet stuff popping up all over. It will
> become harder and harder to pay for away-from-home Internet when it is
> available free in so many places with more popping up every day.

While that's true, WiFi has its issues.  It takes a lot of money to
build out a seamless Wifi network.  There's still no such thing as a
free lunch, and *someone* has to pay for these "free" networks.  In
business establishments, usually it's built into the cost of drinks and
food (many are now requiring that you buy something in order to use the
"free" network). Even the municipal networks that are starting to spring
up are paid through government funds, which end up being paid by taxpayers.

So it's important to be careful when you refer to any network as "free." ;)

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Frankster - 15 Jun 2006 16:27 GMT
> So it's important to be careful when you refer to any network as "free."
> ;)

Yes, of course. Howevever, most (I thought all, but maybe not) business that
offer "free" access. do so simply for the increased walk-in traffic and
don't have any "minimum" purchase. Much like "free" TV in a sports bar.

-Frank
SMS - 15 Jun 2006 16:52 GMT
>> The way I read it, the implications in the article are... they will
>> have to stop freeloaders sooner or later, and, the rates will have to
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> food (many are now requiring that you buy something in order to use the
> "free" network).

It's the opposite. The free WiFi is increasing the volume of food and
drink sold, driving down unit prices. In my area, it's good to see
Starbucks at a disadvantage, with their paid hot spots, versus a
plethora of better coffee places that provide free WiFI. If you divide
the cost of providing free WiFi by the number of espresso based drinks,
the burdened cost per drink of the WiFi is lost in the noise, maybe a
couple of cents per drink.

Of course, once every cafe and restaurant has free WiFi, the competitive
advantage may go away slightly, but it still drives more people out to
buy these ridiculously priced drinks.
DecaturTxCowboy - 15 Jun 2006 23:09 GMT
> It's the opposite. The free WiFi is increasing the volume of food and
> drink sold, driving down unit prices. In my area, it's good to see
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the burdened cost per drink of the WiFi is lost in the noise, maybe a
> couple of cents per drink.

When you look at the industry magazines..WiFi and food services, there
are article where establishments suffer from cyber squatters sitting at
a table for hours.  Customer churn (the good kind) is good for biz...an
empty table or a table "out of service" by a squatter is not.

For you convenience, you may select from the following responses:

#1 - Rubbish
#2 - Unverifiable
#3 - I used to manager a restaurant and know this is not so.
#4 - Citation?
John Navas - 15 Jun 2006 23:33 GMT
>> It's the opposite. The free WiFi is increasing the volume of food and
>> drink sold, driving down unit prices. In my area, it's good to see
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>a table for hours.  Customer churn (the good kind) is good for biz...an
>empty table or a table "out of service" by a squatter is not.

Which "industry magazines" would those be, by name?

Which articles would those be, by title and date?

Most hotspot operators seem to feel that the increase in business
outweighs the issues of squatters and leeches, which are fairly easy to
deal with in any event (e.g., by passwords only good for an hour or so).
Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.  (Now there's a thought.)

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Isaiah Beard - 17 Jun 2006 05:15 GMT
>>> It's the opposite. The free WiFi is increasing the volume of food and
>>> drink sold, driving down unit prices. In my area, it's good to see
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Which articles would those be, by title and date?

Google is your friend, Navas.

But since you evidently refuse to google, even though you consider such
a "cite" more than adequate for any argument *you* make:

http://wifinetnews.com/archives/005325.html

May 26, 2005; "Coffeeshop Turns off Wi-Fi on Weekends"; Glenn Fleishman,
WiFi News.

In particular:

"Worse than just the sheer number of laptop users, Strongin noted, is
that many of these patrons will camp six to eight hours—and not buy
anything. This seemed astounding to me, but she said that it was
typical, not unusual."

> Most hotspot operators seem to feel that the increase in business
> outweighs the issues of squatters and leeches, which are fairly easy to
> deal with in any event (e.g., by passwords only good for an hour or so).

> Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.  (Now there's a thought.)

It would appear that at least some shop owners, particular smaller
shops, are in fact re-thinking their policies AND shutting off the WiFi
on certain days.

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John Navas - 17 Jun 2006 05:24 GMT
>>> When you look at the industry magazines..WiFi and food services, there
>>> are article where establishments suffer from cyber squatters sitting at
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>anything. This seemed astounding to me, but she said that it was
>typical, not unusual."

Yet my local coffee shop has no such problem.  Perhaps they have more
clue?  Ya think?  It's actually trivially easy to cut off squatters.
(See the Wiki below.)  So anyone who says that's a real problem is ...
well ... clueless.

>> Most hotspot operators seem to feel that the increase in business
>> outweighs the issues of squatters and leeches, which are fairly easy to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>shops, are in fact re-thinking their policies AND shutting off the WiFi
>on certain days.

They're probably not doing all that well as coffee shops either.

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DecaturTxCowboy - 17 Jun 2006 18:59 GMT
> Yet my local coffee shop has no such problem.

Of course not.

But then...one coffee shop experience is hardly credible statistic evidence.

> They're probably not doing all that well as coffee shops either.

You're guessing. They are doing very well, until the squatters come in.
SMS - 17 Jun 2006 19:58 GMT
>> Yet my local coffee shop has no such problem.
>
> Of course not.
>
> But then...one coffee shop experience is hardly credible statistic
> evidence.

His coffee shop also has unlimited lattes for $20 per month.
Kevin Weaver - 17 Jun 2006 21:15 GMT
>>> Yet my local coffee shop has no such problem.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> His coffee shop also has unlimited lattes for $20 per month.

That's a great deal. I gp to mine 4-6 times a week. I spend that in one
week. :)
Anon E. Muss - 17 Jun 2006 20:31 GMT
[snip]

>Yet my local coffee shop has no such problem.  Perhaps they have more
>clue?  Ya think?  It's actually trivially easy to cut off squatters.
>(See the Wiki below.)  So anyone who says that's a real problem is ...
>well ... clueless.

I see nothing in the Wiki that tells hot to cut off squatters using
WiFi in a coffee shop.

Care to point it out a little more specifically?
John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:32 GMT
>[snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Care to point it out a little more specifically?

<http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_How_To#Controlling_.22squatters.22_and_.22l
eeching.22
>

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Frankster - 17 Jun 2006 12:57 GMT
>>>> It's the opposite. The free WiFi is increasing the volume of food and
>>>> drink sold, driving down unit prices. In my area, it's good to see
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> are in fact re-thinking their policies AND shutting off the WiFi on
> certain days.

But it's not just the WiFi squatters. There are tons of teens today
squatting at coffee shops all over. Coffee shops are now meeting places for
teens on lunch break, college students doing their homework, and on bored
Saturdays. There are tons of squatters. These young people used to sit like
this in Burger King and McDonalds, now they sit in coffee shops. Some of
them have computers (unlike the "olden days") and some of them do not. I
guess the point I wanted to make is that squatters in fast food places and
coffee shops will always be a problem. WiFi or not. I doubt you'll see WiFi
practices significantly change. You'll just see managers starting to require
a purchase if they want to "get rid" of you. They've been doing this for
years.

-Frank
George - 17 Jun 2006 23:01 GMT
> But since you evidently refuse to google, even though you consider such
> a "cite" more than adequate for any argument *you* make:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> outweighs the issues of squatters and leeches, which are fairly easy to
>> deal with in any event (e.g., by passwords only good for an hour or so).

Thats the case with my friends wifes' place. She has a coffee shop and
added free wireless when it becamae popular. It seems people have an
entitlement mentality that the Internet should be free or whatever and
she found that many of the freeloaders wouldn't even make a minimal
purchase and just tie up a table for hours. She also had to turn off the
wireless during busy hours to free up the tables for paying customers.

>> Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.  (Now there's a thought.)
>
> It would appear that at least some shop owners, particular smaller
> shops, are in fact re-thinking their policies AND shutting off the WiFi
> on certain days.
SMS - 18 Jun 2006 03:47 GMT
> Thats the case with my friends wifes' place. She has a coffee shop and
> added free wireless when it becamae popular. It seems people have an
> entitlement mentality that the Internet should be free or whatever and
> she found that many of the freeloaders wouldn't even make a minimal
> purchase and just tie up a table for hours. She also had to turn off the
> wireless during busy hours to free up the tables for paying customers.

One of the trade journals had an article where the owner of a coffee
shop was complaining that the problem with the squatters was that they
took up a whole table for four with their stuff, _and_ made minimal
purchases.

Turning off the wireless wouldn't work where I live, as the whole city
has free wireless, though it's slower than what the cafe's typically
provide.

Managing it by codes on the receipt, that are good for say 20 minutes
per $1 purchased, may be the best solution in areas where the cafe
wireless is the only free wireless.
Michael N. Paris - 18 Jun 2006 04:04 GMT
By me there's an Atlanta Bread Company and Java Moon within a 2 min drive of
each other, the Java Moons overpriced, charges through the roof for wifi.
The Atlanta Bread Company is busy, cheaper and has free  A friend of mine
knows the owner of the JM and he complains that Atlanta Bread is just under
charging to toss him out.  Well it was there befire JM and their prices have
been stable.  I guess he doesn't get $7,00 for a cup of coffee and a bagel
is outrageous, then tack on a $5.00 internet fee.
SMS - 16 Jun 2006 01:33 GMT
>> It's the opposite. The free WiFi is increasing the volume of food and
>> drink sold, driving down unit prices. In my area, it's good to see
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> a table for hours.  Customer churn (the good kind) is good for biz...an
> empty table or a table "out of service" by a squatter is not.

Yes, this is sometimes a problem, but it's on the same level as the
people that are downloading DVDs over there EV-DO or HSDPA connection.

One cafe I was at in Mountain View ensures that no power outlets are
available, so that limits people to a few hours.

There is always the option of using a code on a receipt as a key for a
certain amount of time per dollar spent, but it's probably more trouble
than it's worth, unless cyber-squatting is a huge problem.

Squatting was a problem even before WiFi. I was at a jazz show at a
restaurant/bar a couple of months ago, and the two people at the next
table paid the student cover charge ($5) and never ordered a single
drink in three hours of occupying the table, they just drank water. The
waitress was annoyed, but since there was no minimum, there was nothing
she could do, AND it was a sold-out show so those two people were
affecting her tip income. Clearly they should have had at least a one
drink minimum, or charged a bigger cover charge and included some drink
tickets.

> For you convenience, you may select from the following responses:
>
> #1 - Rubbish
> #2 - Unverifiable
> #3 - I used to manager a restaurant and know this is not so.
> #4 - Citation?

You forgot:

#6 - Nonsense
#7 - Simply not true
#8 - Been there; done that
#9 - Assumes facts not in evidence
DecaturTxCowboy - 16 Jun 2006 03:27 GMT
>> For you convenience, you may select from the following responses:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> #8 - Been there; done that
> #9 - Assumes facts not in evidence

#10 - Google is your friend.

But John wants to know which magazines. Any professional active in the
business would know of them.
John Navas - 16 Jun 2006 03:37 GMT
>>> For you convenience, you may select from the following responses:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>But John wants to know which magazines.

You were referring to.

>Any professional active in the
>business would know of them.

You apparently don't, so I guess that says it all.

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DecaturTxCowboy - 16 Jun 2006 04:21 GMT
>> Any professional active in the
>> business would know of them.
>
> You apparently don't, so I guess that says it all.

Stop it..yer killing me. I got more laughs form you to last me a month.
John Navas - 15 Jun 2006 19:02 GMT
>> The way I read it, the implications in the article are... they will have to
>> stop freeloaders sooner or later, and, the rates will have to go up to
>> support the supposed higher network demand in the future.
>
>You know, I remember everyone saying the same thing about
>all-you-can-eat *wired* broadband, such as DSL and cable. ...

True, but cellular spectrum is limited and expensive, whereas wired
capacity is relatively easy and cheap to increase.

>> My personal view is... yes, they will have to stop freeloading, but the
>> rates will go *down* due to higher consumer demand and use (if everybody
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Hopefully so.  Sprint's already going in that direction with the $39.99
>PAM plan.

Cingular has been there for a long time with "unlimited" MEdia for
$20/month.

>> Especially with all the FREE Internet stuff popping up all over. It will
>> become harder and harder to pay for away-from-home Internet when it is
>> available free in so many places with more popping up every day.
>
>While that's true, WiFi has its issues.  ...

Think WiMAX.

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William Ahern - 15 Jun 2006 23:18 GMT
>>> The way I read it, the implications in the article are... they will
>>> have to stop freeloaders sooner or later, and, the rates will have to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> capacity is relatively easy and cheap to increase.
>  

Spectrum scarcity is artificial. There's effectively no limit (and we
don't need to nitpick qualifications considering the primitive through
puts we see now) on the amount of data that any region of the spectrum can
carry. The only real limit is the quality and performance of our hardware.
Unfortunately, we also have to deal w/ the artificial limit imposed by the
government spectrum monopoly.

Without this monopoly breakthroughs would doubtless occur at a much faster
pace. CDMA, both the theory and most of the practice, were developed in
World War II for heaven's sake.

Things like WiMAX will help to drive cellular technology forward. But we
need more competitors like WiMAX, and we need to open up more free
spectrum so this nascent field can more quickly develop the technology. I
realize the contradiction in saying we need more spectrum for one thing
while saying it's limitless for another, but to get from here to there
engineers still need sufficient wiggle room, and obv certainly regions of
the spectrum are more conducive to certain applications than others.
John Navas - 15 Jun 2006 23:39 GMT
>> True, but cellular spectrum is limited and expensive, whereas wired
>> capacity is relatively easy and cheap to increase.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>puts we see now) on the amount of data that any region of the spectrum can
>carry. ...

I have no idea where you're getting that, but it's simply not true.
It's fairly easy to calculate how much traffic a given amount of
spectrum can handle.  For reference, see calculations done for WiMAX.

>Without this monopoly breakthroughs would doubtless occur at a much faster
>pace. CDMA, both the theory and most of the practice, were developed in
>World War II for heaven's sake.

"There is no magic."(c)  CDMA has limits (defined by noise) just as TDMA
has limits.

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Joel Kolstad - 16 Jun 2006 00:36 GMT
>>Without this monopoly breakthroughs would doubtless occur at a much faster
>>pace. CDMA, both the theory and most of the practice, were developed in
>>World War II for heaven's sake.
> "There is no magic."(c)  CDMA has limits (defined by noise) just as TDMA
> has limits.

As a matter of fact, even the devlopers and propoents of CDMA (folks like
Bob Dixon) will readily admit that CDMA gets you less isolation (and
therefore less ultimate capacity) between multiple subscribers that either
TDMA or FDMA do... it's just that CDMA often ends up being cheaper (even
including the price of spectrum) because a lot of the "smarts" can be
implemented digitally rather than requiring various high-quality analog
components.
William Ahern - 16 Jun 2006 10:23 GMT
>>> True, but cellular spectrum is limited and expensive, whereas wired
>>> capacity is relatively easy and cheap to increase.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> "There is no magic."(c)  CDMA has limits (defined by noise) just as TDMA
> has limits.

Leaving aside the fact that we haven't reached Shannon's limit on channel
bandwidth, and that techniques like code division still haven't been fully
exploited, either in research or in practice, there are other novel
approaches to the problem. To wit:

    Recent developments on multi-antenna transceivers (also known as
    Multi-Input Multi-Output systems) have shown that for the same bandwidth
    and power resources compared to traditional single-antenna communication,
    MIMO systems could increase throughput and/or increase reliability of
    communication (diversity gain). The extra degree of freedom (apart from
    time and frequency) comes from space by exploiting the possible
    statistical independence between transmitting-receiving antenna pairs.

    -- http://web.media.mit.edu/~aggelos/viral.html
William Ahern - 16 Jun 2006 10:36 GMT
>     Recent developments on multi-antenna transceivers (also known as
>     Multi-Input Multi-Output systems) have shown that for the same bandwidth
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>     -- http://web.media.mit.edu/~aggelos/viral.html

And here's real-life use of such a technique (if I understand correctly),
proven and even applied to 3G:

    Gerard J. Foschini, a 40-year veteran of Bell Labs, came up with the
    theory behind Blast about a decade ago while working on a long-term
    project to find the limits of a wide variety of technologies. As part of
    that project, he reviewed the work of Claude Shannon, the Bell Labs
    mathematician who published a paper in 1948 that established the field of
    modern information theory. Dr. Shannon's work still provides the basis
    for much information theory, including the notion of system capacity
    limits.

    ''He found the ultimate limits,'' Dr. Foschini said. ''But he was
    basically dealing with one transmitter and one receiver. It was obvious
    to us that we could deal with many transmitting antennas and many
    receiving antennas for the same transmission.''

    So Dr. Foschini began developing mathematical models to see whether
    sending data through arrays of antennas would expand network capacities.

    Antenna arrays have long been used in radar systems. But Dr. Foschini
    said that radar arrays are used to focus radio beams, whereas he wanted
    to scatter them. He hoped to discover whether wireless capacity could be
    boosted by dividing up data in space as well as time. Rather than
    point-to-point communications, his plan was to create volume-to-volume
    exchanges.

    He had found through mathematical research that the concept would not
    work if the transmitter had only a single antenna. ''If you send the same
    signal from one antenna many times all radiating in the same band, you
    come out statistically right where you started,'' Dr. Foschini said.

    Instead, he developed a system that divided data into multiple streams
    that were then transmitted on the same frequency by several antennas. At
    the receiving end, the different streams of data were picked up by other
    antenna arrays.

    Normally more than one transmission on a single radio frequency produces
    nothing but electronic noise. But Blast can make sense out of the noise
    because of the physical separation of the antennas sending the messages.
    Processing software reassembles the scattered data streams into their
    original form.

    When Dr. Foschini tested the plan mathematically, the results were
    surprising. ''We found the capacities were enormous -- far, far in excess
    of what people were thinking of,'' he said. ''If you put more and more
    antennas at the transmitting end, the capacity kept increasing. We were
    coming out with such ridiculously large capacities that at first, we
    didn't believe it.''

    Prototype systems proved that the experiments were correct. Each
    additional antenna added another element of space and because of that,
    additional capacity.

http://tech2.nytimes.com/mem/technology/techreview.html?res=9C03EFD61131F935A257
52C0A9659C8B63

Mij Adyaw - 16 Jun 2006 18:33 GMT
Yes, however, CDMA is better than TDMA or GSM.

> "There is no magic."(c)  CDMA has limits (defined by noise) just as TDMA
> has limits.
John Navas - 16 Jun 2006 19:18 GMT
[top posting fixed]

>> "There is no magic."(c)  CDMA has limits (defined by noise) just as TDMA
>> has limits.

>Yes, however, CDMA is better than TDMA or GSM.

Depends on what you mean by "better."  ;)

All technologies involve tradeoffs, and "CDMA" is no exception, with
issues of pilot pollution, cell "breathing," and other forms of call
degradation under high load.

Strictly from an efficiency standpoint, as measured in Erlangs, "CDMA"
and GSM aren't that far apart.  Some time ago, Chris Pearson, Executive
Vice President, 3G Americas, wrote:

  Many CDMA operators are currently in the midst of deploying 1XRTT,
  an interim step towards 3G that promises to use spectrum more
  efficiently. Time will tell whether that is the truth but the fact is
  that, based on best-case data from CDMA vendors, 1XRTT with EVRC
  handles up to 156 Erlangs per sector. Bearing in mind that GSM with
  AMR handles 142 Erlangs, it is a great stretch to argue that 1XRTT
  has a major advantage over GSM. GSM operators also can deploy dynamic
  frequency and channel allocation (DFCA), which assigns calls to
  channels based on conditions such as signal and interference. With
  AMR and DFCA, GSM can handle 170 Erlangs per sector - an improvement
  on 1XRTT’s 156.

  In the near future, 1XRTT operators will probably be able to deploy a
  technology called selective mode vocoder (SMV), which could provide
  20% more capacity over EVRC. The catch is that SMV-like methods can
  be applied to GSM to produce almost identical capacity gains. Thus,
  while one technology may have slightly higher capacity gains at one
  point in time, another technology is always preparing to leap-frog
  over it.

In addition, as I've noted in the past:

  Unlike a TDMA/GSM network, a CDMA network is interference-limited
  rather than bandwidth-limited, and the Erlang capacity is calculated
  according to the probability of blocking by the network, i.e., the
  probability that a new mobile is denied access to the network.

  The problem is that CDMA Erlang numbers don't take into account the
  quality/usability of the call.  CDMA networks can be loaded to the
  point where quality is truly horrible, whereas TDMA/GSM networks
  guarantee bandwidth to every call.  Real world RF interference
  further muddies the water.

  The result is that claimed Erlangs (call capacity metrics) for CDMA
  networks tend to be unrealistic (some would say wildly unrealistic);
  i.e., they are not directly comparable to the capacity of GSM
  networks. When CDMA calls are limited to those with quality
  comparable to GSM, then capacity is roughly comparable.

  Contrary to the claims of CDMA boosters, there is no magic.(c)

That said, the whole debate about "better" is mostly meaningless and
pointless from a customer point of view -- "CDMA" and GSM are both
capable of very good results in real-world deployments, which is all
that really matters to customers.

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SMS - 16 Jun 2006 21:04 GMT
> Yes, however, CDMA is better than TDMA or GSM.

This is true, see "http://www.cellphoneinfo.com/index.html"

"CDMA has the best noise immunity, is the least susceptible to multipath
(fading), and can talk to more than one cell at a time so that
cell-to-cell handovers (a critical cause of dropped calls) are a soft
exchange and not a hard switch."

and
"http://www.wirelessdevnet.com/channels/wireless/training/mobilewirelesstoday4.html"

"Advantages of CDMA technology include high user capacity and immunity
from interference by other signals."
DecaturTxCowboy - 16 Jun 2006 03:30 GMT
> Things like WiMAX will help to drive cellular technology forward. But we
> need more competitors like WiMAX

Before I go forward with this, can you define "cellular technology". I
know it seems like a stupid question, but I want to narrow the scope
before I say something.
William Ahern - 16 Jun 2006 10:38 GMT
>> Things like WiMAX will help to drive cellular technology forward. But we
>> need more competitors like WiMAX
>
> Before I go forward with this, can you define "cellular technology". I
> know it seems like a stupid question, but I want to narrow the scope
> before I say something.

We'll, I chumped out on better language. Go ahead and rip into it ;)

I think I was simply getting at an idea (BLAST) that I expounded upon in a
follow-up to John's response.
DecaturTxCowboy - 16 Jun 2006 15:58 GMT
>>> Things like WiMAX will help to drive cellular technology forward. But we
>>> need more competitors like WiMAX
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I think I was simply getting at an idea (BLAST) that I expounded upon in a
> follow-up to John's response.

Well....I really am curious what John Vavas' definition of "cellular
technology" is and if he thinks its referring to companies like
Cingular, Verizon, Sprint or T-Mobile.
Isaiah Beard - 17 Jun 2006 05:24 GMT
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:09:32 -0400, Isaiah Beard

>> Hopefully so.  Sprint's already going in that direction with the $39.99
>> PAM plan.
>
> Cingular has been there for a long time with "unlimited" MEdia for
> $20/month.

The TOS for Unlimited MEdia Net prohibits tethering.

http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal

The last two sentences in the section titled "MEdia Net" state:
"MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering. Cingular reserves
the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a
wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as
determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering."

Please, stop misinforming people.  You are helping no one, and actually
contributing to people having nasty experiences with Cingular when they
discover the hard way that The service is NOT as John Navas advertised.

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John Navas - 17 Jun 2006 05:32 GMT
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:09:32 -0400, Isaiah Beard
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>The TOS for Unlimited MEdia Net prohibits tethering.

1.  I have the old Media Works Unlimited, a different package.

2.  Even on MEdia Net, tethering is just discouraged, not prohibited.

>Please, stop misinforming people.  You are helping no one, and actually
>contributing to people having nasty experiences with Cingular when they
>discover the hard way that The service is NOT as John Navas advertised.

I've seen no real evidence of any "nasty experiences,"  whereas a great
many people are happily using it the way I've documented.

Have a nice day.

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DecaturTxCowboy - 17 Jun 2006 19:01 GMT
> I've seen no real evidence of any "nasty experiences,"

Hardly proof that is isn't happening.
Isaiah Beard - 18 Jun 2006 04:27 GMT
>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:09:32 -0400, Isaiah Beard
>>>> Hopefully so.  Sprint's already going in that direction with the $39.99
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> 1.  I have the old Media Works Unlimited, a different package.

Which is no longer offered and no new customer can get.  Again, your
experience is irrelevant and misleading to others.

> 2.  Even on MEdia Net, tethering is just discouraged, not prohibited.

If "Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net
packages for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other
devices or networks" is what you meant by "discouraged, not prohibited,"
that's a pretty strong discouragement, and a pretty large risk you are
telling people they can and should take.

>> Please, stop misinforming people.  You are helping no one, and actually
>> contributing to people having nasty experiences with Cingular when they
>> discover the hard way that The service is NOT as John Navas advertised.
>
> I've seen no real evidence of any "nasty experiences,"  whereas a great
> many people are happily using it the way I've documented.

Just because you put your head in the sand and refuse to look, doesn't
mean the "evidence" doesn't exist.

A 30 second search revealed:

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=876429&highlight=data+charges+unlimited

And one thread where Cingular arbitrarily changed someone's plan from
your beloved MEdia Works, to unlimited MEdia Net, and was summarily
charged for tether use:

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=914210&highlight=data+charges+unlimited

Google is your friend, remember?

> Have a nice day.

Any day where you're discredited just that little bit more, is a
WONDERFUL day. :)

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SMS - 18 Jun 2006 14:11 GMT
> Which is no longer offered and no new customer can get.  Again, your
> experience is irrelevant and misleading to others.

It actually ended on February 12, 2005. While it's great for the people
that have it, it's no longer available, and it's not helpful for people
to talk about it as if it's still available, and could, if people try to
use MediaNet in the same way, lead to some big surprises on their bills.

Fortunately, Navas's credibility is such that no one is any more likely
to believe him about $20/month unlimited data, than they are about
anything else.

Cingular is under no obligation to continue providing MediaWorks at $20
per month forever. They have, in the past, not hesitated to take people
off older plans, and move them to newer plans.

> Any day where you're discredited just that little bit more, is a
> WONDERFUL day. :)

In a perverse way. Everyone would much rather have him stop posting
misinformation.
Isaiah Beard - 20 Jun 2006 03:58 GMT
> Fortunately, Navas's credibility is such that no one is any more likely
> to believe him about $20/month unlimited data, than they are about
> anything else.

The problem arises when a new person comes in here with a question, sees
this Navas guy acting like he knows his stuff, and they believe him.
When they end up with a nasty surprise on their bill, I doubt Navas will
stand by his claims so much that he'll take care of that overage for them.

And it would be marginally okay if he was honestly misinformed and he
meant well, but it's clear he doesn't mean well, and he refuses to
accept new information that contradicts with his twisted view of the world.

>> Any day where you're discredited just that little bit more, is a
>> WONDERFUL day. :)
>
> In a perverse way. Everyone would much rather have him stop posting
> misinformation.

True, but it seems he has nothing better to do with his life than to see
people get in a tizzy when he spews his nonsense.  So the best one can
hope for is to continue to actively discredit him.

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John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:42 GMT
>> Fortunately, Navas's credibility is such that no one is any more likely
>> to believe him about $20/month unlimited data, than they are about
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>this Navas guy acting like he knows his stuff, and they believe him.
>When they end up with a nasty surprise on their bill, ...

That's just speculative FUD with nothing to back it up.  No case of that
has ever occurred, whereas many have benefitted from help I've given
them.  Have a nice day.

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Scott - 22 Jun 2006 01:18 GMT
>>> Fortunately, Navas's credibility is such that no one is any more likely
>>> to believe him about $20/month unlimited data, than they are about
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> That's just speculative FUD with nothing to back it up.

Nothing except Google.

> No case of that
> has ever occurred,

According to who?

> whereas many have benefitted from help I've given
> them.

The meds kicking in again, oh clueless one?
John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:38 GMT
>> Which is no longer offered and no new customer can get.  Again, your
>> experience is irrelevant and misleading to others.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>per month forever. They have, in the past, not hesitated to take people
>off older plans, and move them to newer plans.

No proof of that, of course, simply your unsubstantiated claim.  ;)

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John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:37 GMT
>> 2.  Even on MEdia Net, tethering is just discouraged, not prohibited.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>that's a pretty strong discouragement, and a pretty large risk you are
>telling people they can and should take.

As I've pointed out before, the risk is only $40, the difference between
MEdia Net Unlimited and Data Connect Unlimited.

>>> Please, stop misinforming people.  You are helping no one, and actually
>>> contributing to people having nasty experiences with Cingular when they
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Just because you put your head in the sand and refuse to look, doesn't
>mean the "evidence" doesn't exist.

We have different standards for what constitutes *real* "evidence."

>A 30 second search revealed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Google is your friend, remember?

Internet legends, remember?

Many (most?) anecdotal horror stories are substantially wrong.

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Isaiah Beard - 24 Jun 2006 16:51 GMT
>>> 2.  Even on MEdia Net, tethering is just discouraged, not prohibited.
>> If "Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> As I've pointed out before, the risk is only $40, the difference between
> MEdia Net Unlimited and Data Connect Unlimited.

No, the risk is NOT $40.  The risk can be several hundreds of dollars,
depending on use.  Cingular does not just throw youon the tehtering
plan, they charge PER KILOBYTE if they choose to take action.  I saw
such a bill first hand (though thankfully, the bills wasn't mine, but a
colleague's), and I've posted threads where others have gotten such bills.

>>>> Please, stop misinforming people.  You are helping no one, and actually
>>>> contributing to people having nasty experiences with Cingular when they
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> We have different standards for what constitutes *real* "evidence."

Yes, your standard is that no evidence except evidence that is
convenient to you (even if the source is questionable) is "real."

> Internet legends, remember?

Yes, you're legendary for being out of gas.

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DecaturTxCowboy - 24 Jun 2006 16:55 GMT
>>>> 2.  Even on MEdia Net, tethering is just discouraged, not prohibited.
>>> If "Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> such a bill first hand (though thankfully, the bills wasn't mine, but a
> colleague's), and I've posted threads where others have gotten such bills.

Navas...you reading this?  Looks like your out of date opinion is
running out of gas.
DecaturTxCowboy - 24 Jun 2006 16:59 GMT
> Yes, your standard is that no evidence except evidence that is
> convenient to you (even if the source is questionable) is "real."

"Old news. Please keep up."  [snicker]
John Navas - 29 Jun 2006 17:00 GMT
>> As I've pointed out before, the risk is only $40, the difference between
>> MEdia Net Unlimited and Data Connect Unlimited.
>
>No, the risk is NOT $40.  The risk can be several hundreds of dollars,
>depending on use.  Cingular does not just throw youon the tehtering
>plan, they charge PER KILOBYTE if they choose to take action.

I've previously cited the part of the service agreement where Cingular
will only charge it most favorable rate, not it's highest rate, thus
making the real risk only $40.

>I saw
>such a bill first hand (though thankfully, the bills wasn't mine, but a
>colleague's), and I've posted threads where others have gotten such bills.

I've gotten them too, and had them reversed, because they are due to
billing system errors, not penalizing.

Can we now stop rehashing this?

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DecaturTxCowboy - 29 Jun 2006 21:56 GMT
> I've gotten them too, and had them reversed, because they are due to
> billing system errors, not penalizing.
>
> Can we now stop rehashing this?

Can you get out of denial this is for real? We are NOT talking about
billing errors, please DO keep up.
John Navas - 29 Jun 2006 22:11 GMT
>> I've gotten them too, and had them reversed, because they are due to
>> billing system errors, not penalizing.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Can you get out of denial this is for real? We are NOT talking about
>billing errors, please DO keep up.

We are actually talking about billing system errors, nothing more.

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Scott - 30 Jun 2006 01:06 GMT
>>> I've gotten them too, and had them reversed, because they are due to
>>> billing system errors, not penalizing.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> We are actually talking about billing system errors, nothing more.

Unless you work for them, your word is hardly authoratative, Novice.  You
have no way of knowing- just more clueless drivel from the Prince of
Guesses.
DecaturTxCowboy - 30 Jun 2006 02:37 GMT
>>> I've gotten them too, and had them reversed, because they are due to
>>> billing system errors, not penalizing.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> We are actually talking about billing system errors, nothing more.

"WE" as in you and that mouse in your pocket.

Isaiah Beard wrote:
------------------------
I saw such a bill first hand (though thankfully, the bills wasn't mine,
but a colleague's), and I've posted threads where others have gotten
such bills.

GomJabber wrote:
------------------------
A coworker of mine got cut off from Verizon's EV-DO service for
overuse.

Stormchaser wrote:
------------------------
Sticker Shock is an Understatement  - i misinformed myself about using
my phone to access the internet and won myself a $900 bill

Once again, John...you are only seeing what YOU want to see.
William Ahern - 18 Jun 2006 23:55 GMT
>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:09:32 -0400, Isaiah Beard
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I've seen no real evidence of any "nasty experiences,"  whereas a great
> many people are happily using it the way I've documented.

Sprint was the same way. You could sign-up for a Power Vision plan
($25 plan according to a rep just one month ago), and tether using
bluetooth (just not using USB, he explained).

That doesn't work anymore, at least not on their latest line of phones.
Sprint's newest phones, like the A900, are smart enough to prohibit that.

So, why tell people that something works when, inevitably, it will stop
working? What happens when it works one month, then the next it stops, or
the person buys the latest greatest phone and it doesn't work? What if
they made their carrier decision based on your comment?

I wouldn't doubt that some managers at Cingular are shrewd enough to
understand that the confusion these plans great can actually serve to
drive more customers and more money their way. $59.99 for "unlimited"
(most people probably use a small factor of the bandwidth that lesser
plans offer) is kinda steep, and if a person is willing to tether using
a MediaNet plan they likely would've never paid the $59.99. But the bean
counters will win the day, and this won't go on forever.
Isaiah Beard - 20 Jun 2006 04:02 GMT
> That doesn't work anymore, at least not on their latest line of phones.
> Sprint's newest phones, like the A900, are smart enough to prohibit that.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the person buys the latest greatest phone and it doesn't work? What if
> they made their carrier decision based on your comment?

It's worse than that!  Yes, Sprint chose to block tethering when
possible, and then you just couldnt' do it without the right plan.  With
Cingular, they just CHARGE YOU, by the kilobyte, and then you get
sticker shock on your next bill.  So posting this drivel is even more
damaging for cingular users.

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Stormchaser - 21 Jun 2006 16:16 GMT
Sticker Shock is an Understatement  - i misinformed myself about using
my phone to access the internet and won myself a $900 bill

I use my Sierra Wireless card for my trucking business, and for
Keeping track of severe storms while Driving (Tornado Chasing)

>> That doesn't work anymore, at least not on their latest line of phones.
>> Sprint's newest phones, like the A900, are smart enough to prohibit that.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>sticker shock on your next bill.  So posting this drivel is even more
>damaging for cingular users.
DecaturTxCowboy - 22 Jun 2006 00:07 GMT
> Sticker Shock is an Understatement  - i misinformed myself about using
> my phone to access the internet and won myself a $900 bill

Hey John...you reading this?  You still want to dismiss this as
anecdotal evidence?
John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:47 GMT
>> Sticker Shock is an Understatement  - i misinformed myself about using
>> my phone to access the internet and won myself a $900 bill
>
>Hey John...you reading this?  You still want to dismiss this as
>anecdotal evidence?

No, I'm dismissing this as too little information to make any sort of
assessment.

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Scott - 22 Jun 2006 01:19 GMT
>>> Sticker Shock is an Understatement  - i misinformed myself about using
>>> my phone to access the internet and won myself a $900 bill
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No, I'm dismissing this as too little information to make any sort of
> assessment.

Further proof of your lack of knowledge.
DecaturTxCowboy - 22 Jun 2006 05:03 GMT
>>> Sticker Shock is an Understatement  - i misinformed myself about using
>>> my phone to access the internet and won myself a $900 bill
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> No, I'm dismissing this as too little information to make any sort of
> assessment.

Just another excuse. I gave you plenty of information in previous posts
describing in detail the issue, but you dismissed them also. You put way
too much credibity in only what you can Google.

So if Stormchaser had his bill discussed in some newspaper and you find
it online, how is that more credible than his first hand experience.

Eventually your MediaWorks is going to cost you. Rate plans are
perpetual, they don't change. If you sign up for 800 minutes a month for
$50...Cingular can't come back and say they want to decrease your
minutes or increase the monthly cost.

Mediaworks is an add-on and subject to the CURRENT terms and
conditions...and Cingular can change them at any time to PROHIBIT
tethering your phone with a cable to your laptop. When you pay your
monthly bill, that signifies you agree to any changes in the terms.

DO have a nice day.....
John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 16:00 GMT
>Eventually your MediaWorks is going to cost you.

It already does, $20/month, and I see no real danger of it changing (as
explained below).

>Rate plans are
>perpetual, they don't change. If you sign up for 800 minutes a month for
>$50...Cingular can't come back and say they want to decrease your
>minutes or increase the monthly cost.

Only during the term of the contract.  After that Cingular is free to
change the terms.

>Mediaworks is an add-on and subject to the CURRENT terms and
>conditions...

The current terms and conditions for the old MEdia Works Unlimited,
which aren't the same as the terms and conditions for the current MEdia
Works Unlimited (a different package and feature code notwithstanding
the confusing name) or MEdia Net Unlimited.

>and Cingular can change them at any time to PROHIBIT
>tethering your phone with a cable to your laptop.

Not until the term of the contract is up.

>When you pay your
>monthly bill, that signifies you agree to any changes in the terms.

Only if (a) the contract terms is up, and (b) you have been properly
notified of any such changes.  Neither is true in my case, which is one
reason why I'm not concerned.  Another reason is that Cingular is well
aware of what I'm doing -- when the data package was accidentally
removed from my account last year it resulted in $8,000 of data charges
in one month, which took review by senior management to have charges
removed, and to have the no longer offered data package restored --
unlike some others, I didn't just roll over and give up.

>DO have a nice day.....

I will.  You too.

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DecaturTxCowboy - 22 Jun 2006 20:14 GMT
> Only if (a) the contract terms is up, and (b) you have been properly
> notified of any such changes.  

Mediaworks is an add-on. Not relevant.
John Navas - 23 Jun 2006 06:42 GMT
>> Only if (a) the contract terms is up, and (b) you have been properly
>> notified of any such changes.  
>
>Mediaworks is an add-on. Not relevant.

Not true.  It's part of the Service Agreement.

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John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:46 GMT
>> That doesn't work anymore, at least not on their latest line of phones.
>> Sprint's newest phones, like the A900, are smart enough to prohibit that.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>sticker shock on your next bill.  So posting this drivel is even more
>damaging for cingular users.

That's just due to billing SNAFUs.  The most Cingular can charge,
according to its own contract, is the most favorable rate, which is
currently $60/month.

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John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:45 GMT
>So, why tell people that something works when,

It works, but the caveat is clearly stated.

>inevitably, it will stop
>working?

I don't think it's inevitable.

>What happens when it works one month, then the next it stops, or
>the person buys the latest greatest phone and it doesn't work? What if
>they made their carrier decision based on your comment?

That would be a poor choice.

>I wouldn't doubt that some managers at Cingular are shrewd enough to
>understand that the confusion these plans great can actually serve to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>a MediaNet plan they likely would've never paid the $59.99. But the bean
>counters will win the day, and this won't go on forever.

I personally think unlimited data for no more than $20/month is here to
stay, but only time will tell.

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Scott - 22 Jun 2006 01:20 GMT
>>inevitably, it will stop
>>working?
>
> I don't think

You should have stopped there.

> it's inevitable.

We don't care for your opinions- please post fact.

>>What happens when it works one month, then the next it stops, or
>>the person buys the latest greatest phone and it doesn't work? What if
>>they made their carrier decision based on your comment?
>
> That would be a poor choice.

Duh!!!!!
SMS - 17 Jun 2006 07:36 GMT
> Please, stop misinforming people.  You are helping no one, and actually
> contributing to people having nasty experiences with Cingular when they
> discover the hard way that The service is NOT as John Navas advertised.

His whole reason for existing is to misinform people. It's like telling
a shark to stop eating fish.
SMS - 17 Jun 2006 08:08 GMT
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:09:32 -0400, Isaiah Beard
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal

One thing to be very careful of is if you have the pay as you go
MediaNet. See
"http://www.golod.com/2005/06/cingular-medianet-review/#comment-7462"
John Navas - 17 Jun 2006 15:07 GMT
>>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:09:32 -0400, Isaiah Beard
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>MediaNet. See
>"http://www.golod.com/2005/06/cingular-medianet-review/#comment-7462"

Looks like a classic case of blaming Cingular for irresponsible use by a
teenager.

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dold@XReXXAll-y.usenet.us.com - 17 Jun 2006 16:56 GMT
In alt.cellular.cingular John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 00:08:21 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>

> >One thing to be very careful of is if you have the pay as you go
> >MediaNet. See
> >"http://www.golod.com/2005/06/cingular-medianet-review/#comment-7462"

> Looks like a classic case of blaming Cingular for irresponsible use by a
> teenager.

No, it doesn't.  It mentions the assumption that the teenager was at
fault, but the charges were on "Mom's" phone.  

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---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA  GPS: 38.8,-122.5

SMS - 17 Jun 2006 19:59 GMT
> In alt.cellular.cingular John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 00:08:21 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> No, it doesn't.  It mentions the assumption that the teenager was at
> fault, but the charges were on "Mom's" phone.  

Cingular did reverse the charges, eventually. You have to wonder how
many other subscribers gave up and just paid unincurred charges.
John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:51 GMT
>> In alt.cellular.cingular John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 00:08:21 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Cingular did reverse the charges, eventually. You have to wonder how
>many other subscribers gave up and just paid unincurred charges.

Assumes facts not in evidence.  Most (all?) guilty people profess
innocence.

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John Navas - 22 Jun 2006 00:50 GMT
>In alt.cellular.cingular John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 00:08:21 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>No, it doesn't.  It mentions the assumption that the teenager was at
>fault, but the charges were on "Mom's" phone.  

Which might well have been run up by the teenager.  Or not.  The story
simply isn't credible on its face.

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Frankster - 17 Jun 2006 13:15 GMT
> The TOS for Unlimited MEdia Net prohibits tethering.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> contributing to people having nasty experiences with Cingular when they
> discover the hard way that The service is NOT as John Navas advertised.

Verizon was saying this too, though all the while allowing it to happen.
Eventually (now) they have "seen the light" and changed their TOS to allow
it. Albeit, only on specific phones. But I don't mean only PDAs, I mean
other specific actual "cell phone" devices. Change (for the good) will come.
It's just a matter of time.

-Frank
Tinman - 14 Jun 2006 18:50 GMT
> Good article about unlimited data plans, and statements from Cingular,
> Sprint, and Verizon, see:
>
> "http://www.computerpartner.nl/article.php?news=int&id=3549"

Sprint seems to be OK with it for now:
=========================
Sprint Nextel Corp. gives subscribers a wide berth, even selling routers
that let users share a connection to the company's Sprint PCS Vision
service. Sprint believes it can expand network capacity fast enough to
keep up with a growing subscriber base, said Barry Tishgart, director of
marketing.

"We're going to keep our policies simple and straightforward and
encourage people to go out there and find new uses for broadband,"
Tishgart said. For example, the company's terms of service don't forbid
subscribers from making large file transfers to their PCs. If
subscribers have to think about how much data they're using, many will
be scared off by 3G, he said.
=========================

I don't see 3G succeeding much, at least in the U.S., if the perception
of value isn't there. I know many people--none who would even think
about posting here--who don't see the value in having data-access on
their phones at all (even at $10-$15 per month).

Should the carriers take action on the bandwidth hogs they risk bad
publicity by not honoring "unlimited." OTOH, if they change the plans so
that "unlimited" is prohibitively expensive, with several other less
expensive limited plans offered, it could be potentially worse
(particularly if it's just too confusing for Joe Anybody).

I think they should just stick with unlimited plans, priced
attractively, and deal with the bandwidth hogs via TOS, particularly
those who use it to tether a laptop. They'll get some bad press, no
doubt. But if they are able to communicate why this is needed, and what
the alternatives are, I think they'll be OK. We shall see...

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Mike

John Navas - 14 Jun 2006 19:53 GMT
>I think they should just stick with unlimited plans, priced
>attractively, and deal with the bandwidth hogs via TOS, particularly
>those who use it to tether a laptop. They'll get some bad press, no
>doubt. But if they are able to communicate why this is needed, and what
>the alternatives are, I think they'll be OK. We shall see...

Can you say, "fair use" policy?  As with satellite Internet.  The
carrier throttles heavy users based on how much data they transfer.
I'd say that's quite likely on cellular as well, although only time will
tell.

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Frankster - 14 Jun 2006 20:24 GMT
> I don't see 3G succeeding much, at least in the U.S., if the perception of
> value isn't there. I know many people--none who would even think about
> posting here--who don't see the value in having data-access on their
> phones at all (even at $10-$15 per month).

It's more than data access on the phone. It's also data access on the
computer.

-Frank
John Navas - 14 Jun 2006 20:26 GMT
>> I don't see 3G succeeding much, at least in the U.S., if the perception of
>> value isn't there. I know many people--none who would even think about
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It's more than data access on the phone. It's also data access on the
>computer.

Carriers are trying to differentiate the pricing for untethered (phone)
use and tethered (computer) use.

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Frankster - 14 Jun 2006 21:04 GMT
>>> I don't see 3G succeeding much, at least in the U.S., if the perception
>>> of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Carriers are trying to differentiate the pricing for untethered (phone)
> use and tethered (computer) use.

Not all computer data access is tethered. In fact, a wireless card is
preferable.  Tethered might be okay, that's how I do it now.

-Frank
John Navas - 14 Jun 2006 21:11 GMT
>>>> I don't see 3G succeeding much, at least in the U.S., if the perception
>>>> of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> Carriers are trying to differentiate the pricing for untethered (phone)
>> use and tethered (computer) use.

>Not all computer data access is tethered. In fact, a wireless card is
>preferable.  ...

That's still considered "tethered," since the PC Card is the mobile
device.

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Paul Miner - 20 Jun 2006 01:06 GMT