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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / April 2007

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Any software recommendations...

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Bill Kraski - 17 Apr 2007 04:49 GMT
for antivirus & firewall for the Cingular 8525?  I'm OK figuring out
who's got it together for PC versions, but I have no clue who's got it
right for Windows Mobile.

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Bill K

Todd Allcock - 17 Apr 2007 06:22 GMT
> for antivirus & firewall for the Cingular 8525?

AFAIK, there are no PPC virii out there yet, (although there is at least
one anti-virus product out there for WinMo- ostensibly for preventing the
PPC from passing on PC virii attached to incoming e-mails.)

As to firewalls, unlike PCs, PPCs are not browsable shares when connected
to networks, so I'm not aware if PPC firewalls are available or even
necessary.
Bill Kraski - 17 Apr 2007 15:04 GMT
> AFAIK, there are no PPC virii out there yet, (although there is at
> least one anti-virus product out there for WinMo- ostensibly for
> preventing the PPC from passing on PC virii attached to incoming
> e-mails.)

OK.  In more recent research, there may be one virus for Windows
Mobile.   Catching any does seem like a smart move, though, in light of
what you've said.

> As to firewalls, unlike PCs, PPCs are not browsable shares when
> connected to networks, so I'm not aware if PPC firewalls are
> available or even necessary.

Several of the A/V producers (Trend Micro & F-Prot) sell a protection
suite that includes firewalling.  With my inexperience with Windows
Mobile stuff, I don't know whether it's really necessary or not.

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Bill K

John Navas - 17 Apr 2007 16:02 GMT
>> As to firewalls, unlike PCs, PPCs are not browsable shares when
>> connected to networks, so I'm not aware if PPC firewalls are
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>suite that includes firewalling.  With my inexperience with Windows
>Mobile stuff, I don't know whether it's really necessary or not.

A firewall is _always_ a good idea.

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Best regards,        FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas          <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

Todd Allcock - 17 Apr 2007 23:08 GMT
> A firewall is _always_ a good idea.

Really?  Which one do you use on your V3xx?

A Windows Mobile phone is still a phone, despite the word "Windows" in
the title, and no more at risk of an exploit than a Nokia series 40 or a
Motorola Razr.  The user base is still too small to attrac the attention
of hackers, and it's lack of full time connectivity makes it less
valuable a platform to "bot."

I already have enough crap running in the background slowing my device
down that I actually need and use to start adding more software to combat
risks that do not, as of yet, exist.
John Navas - 18 Apr 2007 16:09 GMT
>> A firewall is _always_ a good idea.
>
>Really?  Which one do you use on your V3xx?

1. Standard protections built into the phone firmware.
2. J2ME sandbox.

>A Windows Mobile phone is still a phone, despite the word "Windows" in
>the title, and no more at risk of an exploit than a Nokia series 40 or a
>Motorola Razr.

True and false respectively.  Smart phones are much more at risk than
standard phones.

>The user base is still too small to attrac the attention
>of hackers, and it's lack of full time connectivity makes it less
>valuable a platform to "bot."

The attention of hackers has already been attracted.

>I already have enough crap running in the background slowing my device
>down that I actually need and use to start adding more software to combat
>risks that do not, as of yet, exist.

Smart phone viruses do exist.  Google "smart phone virus".

Signature

Best regards,        FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas          <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

Todd Allcock - 18 Apr 2007 23:37 GMT
> 1. Standard protections built into the phone firmware.

What protections do "dumbphones" have that smartphones do not, except,
perhaps, fewer features (i.e. lack of POP/IMAP support would make e-mail
virus delivery difficult?)
 
> 2. J2ME sandbox.

I'll give you that one- but like above, any "security" that offers is at
the expense of functionality.  J2ME is way too limiting- the
"protections" offered, by apps not being able to access/edit the phone's
data directly, prevent Java apps from being very useful.  A GPS/map
applet that doesn't allow me to use my contacts as addresses for example,
is annoying.

Besides, WinMo smartphone users could limit themselves to Java apps as
well in the interest of "security," but it'd be a waste of a WinMo
phone's useability.  

> >A Windows Mobile phone is still a phone, despite the word "Windows" in
> >the title, and no more at risk of an exploit than a Nokia series 40 or a
> >Motorola Razr.
>
> True and false respectively.  Smart phones are much more at risk than
> standard phones.

Only, perhaps, because they're more likely to become targets due to a
single OS allowing one "malproduct" to work on multiple phones.  Either
way, there are no reported exploits of a smartphone OS or available
browsers that allow the remote "hijacking" of a phone that I've ever read.


> The attention of hackers has already been attracted.

I've seen no actual reports of infected phones (outside of intentional
affliction by "proof of concept" malware in a controlled environment.)


> Smart phone viruses do exist.  Google "smart phone virus".

I have, generally when this subject comes up in the WinMo groups.  Unless
I've missed a recent news story, WinMo virii, like the Black Death, only
exist in experimental labs.  AFAIK, every Smartphone virus has been
created for testing purposes (improve OS security, test AV software, etc.)
and do not exist in the "real world" outside an R&D lab.  
All also have one thing in common- they must be actually executed by the
recipient- there is no exploit or vulnerability that allows a phone to be
infected by even these R&D virii without the "victim" intalling/executing
it manually.  Heck, if PC malware was this well behaved, I'd run my PC
without AV protection as well!  ;-)

Will phones ever need security precautions?  Most likely, as OSes, and
hacker talents "improve."  Do smartphone
need such protections now?  IMHO, not as of yet.

When the first real smartphone virus gets released into the "wild" that
can attack my phone without my direct stupidity involved (selecting it to
download, accepting an unknown file from a stranger via bluetooth, or
clicking on an e-mail attachment to allow it to install, for example)
then I'll reexamine if any protection is warranted.

As of today, however, my WinMo phone needs protection from Messers Norton
and/or McAfee about as much as my toaster-oven does.

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John Navas - 20 Apr 2007 17:47 GMT
>> 1. Standard protections built into the phone firmware.
>
>What protections do "dumbphones" have that smartphones do not, except,
>perhaps, fewer features (i.e. lack of POP/IMAP support would make e-mail
>virus delivery difficult?)

That's essentially it, a substantial difference -- every running service
on a smart phone is a point of vulnerability.

>> 2. J2ME sandbox.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>applet that doesn't allow me to use my contacts as addresses for example,
>is annoying.

There's no need for major hassles when J2ME applications are programmed
properly -- it's not all or nothing -- different security options exist.
That said, it's a major vulnerability to allow apps to access data like
that.

>Besides, WinMo smartphone users could limit themselves to Java apps as
>well in the interest of "security," but it'd be a waste of a WinMo
>phone's useability.  

I've used both, and don't see any significant usability issues with
"just" J2ME.

>> True and false respectively.  Smart phones are much more at risk than
>> standard phones.
>
>Only, perhaps, because they're more likely to become targets due to a
>single OS allowing one "malproduct" to work on multiple phones.

The risk comes from allowing things that create points of vulnerability.
It's the same naivete that got PC versions of Windows into so much
trouble.

>Either
>way, there are no reported exploits of a smartphone OS or available
>browsers that allow the remote "hijacking" of a phone that I've ever read.

Again, smart phone viruses do exist, and it's only a matter of time
until they get to be a serious problem.

>> The attention of hackers has already been attracted.
>
>I've seen no actual reports of infected phones (outside of intentional
>affliction by "proof of concept" malware in a controlled environment.)

That's hardly reassuring.  But suit yourself -- I'm not interested in
taking such risks for no good reason.

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Best regards,        FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas          <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

John Navas - 21 Apr 2007 05:38 GMT
>[SNIP]

"Embedded devices a cinch to pwn"
<http://www.theregister.com/2007/04/19/embedded_devices_security/>

  Cell phones, modems, routers and similar devices are a lot easier to
  hack than most people think, making them an opportune target for
  criminals looking for an easy way to pierce a network, a researcher
  from Juniper networks says.

  Speaking at the CanSecWest security conference in Vancouver, Barnaby
  Jack demonstrated how a soldering kit and some basic knowledge about
  the processors typically used in embedded devices can allow
  miscreants to download the firmware running on the hardware. The code
  can then be modified to make the devices do all kinds of nefarious
  things, he warns.

  Over the past decade, computers - usually those running Windows -
  have emerged as the vector of choice for cyber crooks. That is
  beginning to change for several reasons. For one, years of trial and
  error (with an emphasis on error) has helped Microsoft harden the
  defenses of its software, making it harder to find critical
  vulnerabilities. At the same time, the number of cell phones, routers
  and other embedded devices has proliferated.

  Hardware designers often make it easy for their devices to be hacked
  because they contain debugging functionality and hardware interfaces
  not needed by end users.

  Jack demonstrated how modified firmware for a router made by D-Link
  changed default settings so remote administration was enabled. (He
  emphasized gear made by other vendors was equally at risk.) That in
  turn would allow the router to be accessed remotely, potentially
  allowing the altering of DNS settings or the disclosure of VPN
  credentials.

  We would have been more impressed had it been possible to modify the
  firmware remotely. Alas, that was not the case. To alter the
  settings, the criminal would need to access the device on the local
  area network. Jack claims similar attacks could be carried out over
  the net.

  We'll give Jack the benefit of the doubt here, not just because we're
  in a charitable mood, but also because he makes a good point.
  Embedded devices are everywhere and we suspect little thought or
  money is put into fortifying them against the increasing
  sophistication of today's cyber attacks. Consider yourselves warned.

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Best regards,        FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas          <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

Thurman - 21 Apr 2007 13:59 GMT
>>[SNIP]
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>   can then be modified to make the devices do all kinds of nefarious
>   things, he warns.

Apparently the author has been under the covers since 1985 when the market
for engine mods on a chip arrived.

There so many towing vehicles for recreational vehicles modified in warranty
I wonder if the dealers even bother to check.
John Navas - 17 Apr 2007 16:02 GMT
>> for antivirus & firewall for the Cingular 8525?
>
>AFAIK, there are no PPC virii out there yet, ...

The key word there is "yet".

>As to firewalls, unlike PCs, PPCs are not browsable shares when connected
>to networks, so I'm not aware if PPC firewalls are available or even
>necessary.

Firewalls can be helpful even when there is no sharing because there are
means of attack other than shares; e.g., bugs in browsers.  

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Best regards,        FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas          <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

 
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