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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / January 2004

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Is Cingular now all GSM?

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Pat - 05 Dec 2003 00:15 GMT
The shopping malls are a gauntlet of cellphone dealers, that you have to
navigate. These people are as predatory as sharks and very aggressive.

Today, I was informed by a Cingular reseller, at a Boston area mall, that
Cingular is now all GSM. He said it happened in the last 3 weeks. All the
cellphones were GSM in the display case.

Is this guy for real?
Mark W. Oots - 05 Dec 2003 00:29 GMT
In a word....No! In your area, Cingular may have GSM at every cell site, and
95% of their markets will have overlays by the end of the month, but TDMA
still exists along side the GSM. Now, if the question is "Do I have to buy a
GSM phone if I want to buy one now?", the answer is....Yep! Either that or
GAIT (There are only two, no flip phones, no color displays on GAIT phones
... just anticipating the usual questions ....and no, there probably won't
be any new model GAIT phones in the future.....)

Mark

> The shopping malls are a gauntlet of cellphone dealers, that you have to
> navigate. These people are as predatory as sharks and very aggressive.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Is this guy for real?
Hi There - 05 Dec 2003 03:47 GMT
I picked up a GAIT phone at a local Cingular store and they tried to talk me
out of it and into a GSM-only.  TDMA is being "phased out", "that's the old
network".  They are obviously on a commision program that favors GSM, and
they are not thinking of my needs here.  I knew better... and I want
coverage where I know GSM would not be available.

Most of the Cingular stores in the Boston area likely have at least the
6340i GAIT so you can get TDMA/GSM/AMPS.  Just don't ask them what GAIT
stands for....they probably wont know.

> In a word....No! In your area, Cingular may have GSM at every cell site, and
> 95% of their markets will have overlays by the end of the month, but TDMA
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/2003
Aaron Worley - 05 Dec 2003 07:18 GMT
> Just don't ask them what GAIT
>stands for....they probably wont know.

...my question exactly: I'm a musician on the road, and I've GOT to have the
best possible coverage; the Cingular salesgirl sold me the Nokia 6340i about 6
weeks ago, and she said that Cingular wouldn't be all GSM for another
year...anyway, would one of you kind, fine folks explain GAIT to me and how it
works? Muchas gracias,
Aaron Worley
Group Special Mobile - 05 Dec 2003 15:45 GMT
>...my question exactly: I'm a musician on the road, and I've GOT to have the
>best possible coverage; the Cingular salesgirl sold me the Nokia 6340i about 6
>weeks ago, and she said that Cingular wouldn't be all GSM for another
>year...anyway, would one of you kind, fine folks explain GAIT to me and how it
>works?

GAIT:  GSM ANSI Interoperability Team.  A GAIT handset is a handset
that has the capability of using GSM, TDMA (IS-136) and analog AMPS.
The handset is optomized to choose which networks it connects to in a
specific order.  I believe (though am not 100% sure on this) that its
first preference is for GSM networks.  It will then choose TDMA
(IS-136) networks and finally if neither GSM or TDMA IS-136 networks
are available it will chose an analog AMPS network.  In theory anyway
this will give you the best coverage available provided that you can
access GSM, TDMA or AMPS networks.  From what I understand there's no
smooth handoff between GSM or TDMA to the other modes so if you lose
signal your call will drop and your party will have to call you again
or you'll have to call them again.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          To send an email reply send to
         GSMthemobilestandard (@) yahoo.com
Aboutdakota - 05 Dec 2003 19:18 GMT
> GAIT:  GSM ANSI Interoperability Team.  A GAIT handset is a handset
> that has the capability of using GSM, TDMA (IS-136) and analog AMPS.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>            To send an email reply send to
>           GSMthemobilestandard (@) yahoo.com

There is a smooth handoff between TDMA and AMPS, and AMPS to TDMA.  I
have not actually used my GSM mode yet, as I've been roaming in
TDMA/AMPS territory since I got my phone.  I should start picking up a
GSM signal by the end of the year via Western Wireless.

==AD
Chris Russell - 26 Dec 2003 18:19 GMT
GSM will not hand-off to TDMA/AMPS and vice versa.  When you get a GSM
signal and the call leaves GSM, you'll probably get the 3 quiet beeps
then nothing.  Suppossedly they are trying to fix this problem and
make GSM hand-off to TDMA/AMPS.  Altough I see this as the same
situation with my SPCS phone and you are on a call on the SPCS network
and lose the signal, it will aways drop the call and not hand-off to
another CDMA or AMPS carrier.

Chris
Please respond on Usenet
Happy Holidays!

> There is a smooth handoff between TDMA and AMPS, and AMPS to TDMA.  I
> have not actually used my GSM mode yet, as I've been roaming in
> TDMA/AMPS territory since I got my phone.  I should start picking up a
> GSM signal by the end of the year via Western Wireless.
>
> ==AD
JRW - 03 Jan 2004 00:23 GMT
> GSM will not hand-off to TDMA/AMPS and vice versa.  When you get a GSM
> signal and the call leaves GSM, you'll probably get the 3 quiet beeps
> then nothing.

This is not good for me. I'm constantly moving driving between
Cingular's GSM and someone else's TDMA. I'd be dropping almost every
call!
Chris Russell - 03 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT
It is very possible that the phone may switch to ATTWS GSM or T-Mobile GSM,
the largest GSM roaming partners for Cingular.  Also, how do you know that
it didn't switch to Cingular TDMA (outside NYC and CA) and then it could
switch to a TDMA/AMPS roaming signal.  Currently my 6340i is camping on DCCH
(TDMA) on Detroit metro area's very east side.  Sometimes it stays on TDMA
driving all over the metro area-even though GSM was supposedly turned on
10/02.  I have had very few calls drop running out of a GSM signal.  Also,
they are supposedly working on a GSM handoff procedure for a phone upgrade.

Chris
Please respond in the newsgroup

> > GSM will not hand-off to TDMA/AMPS and vice versa.  When you get a GSM
> > signal and the call leaves GSM, you'll probably get the 3 quiet beeps
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Cingular's GSM and someone else's TDMA. I'd be dropping almost every
> call!
John S. - 03 Jan 2004 12:08 GMT
>This is not good for me. I'm constantly moving driving between
>Cingular's GSM and someone else's TDMA. I'd be dropping almost every
>call!

However, if you NEED to make that call, you will and be happy that you are not
looking for the ever disappearing pay phones. Besides, standing out in the cold
and the rain and the snow is not as preferable as just re-dialing the phone.

And have you noticed that there simply are no more "Phone Booths" any more to
get you in out of that above mentioned weather.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
JRW - 03 Jan 2004 20:55 GMT
>>This is not good for me. I'm constantly moving driving between
>>Cingular's GSM and someone else's TDMA. I'd be dropping almost every
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> looking for the ever disappearing pay phones. Besides, standing out in the cold
> and the rain and the snow is not as preferable as just re-dialing the phone.

I wouldn't mind using a payphone, it would certainly be clearer.
However some of the areas I work in don't even have paved roads,
much less a Sonic or Dairy Queen.
Aboutdakota - 05 Dec 2003 15:54 GMT
>>Just don't ask them what GAIT
>>stands for....they probably wont know.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> works? Muchas gracias,
> Aaron Worley

There isn't a whole lot to it.  GAIT stands for GSM/ANSI-136
Interoperability Team.  ANSI-136 is a more technical name for the TDMA
standard that is widely used with Cingular and AT&T.  It works much like
a TDMA/AMPS phone, where the phone will try to attain acceptable TDMA
signal before it will attain AMPS signal.

If am not totally correct, please correct me if I am wrong.
GAIT phones, unless set otherwise, will have a GSM home preference, then
TDMA home preference, then AMPS home preference.  After that it will go
to the most preferred GSM roaming partner, then the most preferred TDMA
partner, then the most preferred AMPS roaming partner.  The idea with
GSM being the preferred technology is that the phone, after the TDMA to
GSM transition, the phone will work fine with new GSM system, but still
have TDMA/AMPS as an additional fallback.

==AD
Chris Russell - 06 Dec 2003 01:08 GMT
I have my 6340i in field test mode much of the time and it always goes
to the 21 section and looks for DCCH(TDMA) and ACCH(AMPS)first before
the 01 section and CCCH(GSM).  When home on the east side of Detroit,
I am on DCCH(TDMA) most of the time and the last time I went over to
the gallery on the west side to pick up my load it stayed on DCCH all
over town. Right now it is 'camping' on DCCH.  I don't know if this
occurs because I came from the TDMA Nation Plan.

Chris
Please respond on Usenet

> >>Just don't ask them what GAIT
> >>stands for....they probably wont know.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> ==AD
NOLA - 07 Dec 2003 15:49 GMT
> I have my 6340i in field test mode much of the time and it always goes
> to the 21 section and looks for DCCH(TDMA) and ACCH(AMPS)first before
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Chris
> Please respond on Usenet

Cingular sets the 6340i to TDMA preferred or GSM preferred depending on your
home market. When I got mine, it was set to TDMA preferred as yours is, but
then about a week before they turned on GSM here, it was changed to GSM
preferred. I started picking up GSM before it went live and only get TDMA
when there is no GSM signal.

Tom
Chris Russell - 26 Dec 2003 18:12 GMT
The Detroit market has been transitioned to GSM since Oct, 02 and my
6340i still starts with TDMA/AMPS first.  I was told in Dec, 02 that
my phone was the first GSM accessible phone in my area and still one
of a very few when I wondered why I hadn't been picking up very much
GSM.  Now give any TDMA service and anything but Cingular GSM.  Suffer
from echo problems on incoming calls and lower voice level except from
other cell phones.  I do not suffer these problems on ATTWS,
VoiceStream(T-Mobile), Einstein PCS, USA 360, 390, 450, Iowa Wireless,
etc. GSM systems.

Chris
Please respond on Usenet
Happy Holidays!

> Cingular sets the 6340i to TDMA preferred or GSM preferred depending on your
> home market. When I got mine, it was set to TDMA preferred as yours is, but
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Tom
John Navas - 05 Dec 2003 21:59 GMT
>> Just don't ask them what GAIT
>>stands for....they probably wont know.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>year...anyway, would one of you kind, fine folks explain GAIT to me and how it
>works? ...

While GAIT will give you the "best possible coverage," actual coverage is
governed by the programming of the SIM, and it won't necessarily give you the
best possible signal in any event.  From prior posts by me:

========================================================================

Which network the phone will select depends on how the phone is
programmed (on the SIM) by the carrier.  There are four different modes
of GAIT operation:

     * GSM Native Mode: This is where the mobile is homed to a GSM
  network and is operating on a GSM network. In this mode, the mobile
  is able to perform standard GSM type functions including SMS and Data
  services (circuit switched at 9600 or 14400 bps and packet switched
  service if it is offered).

     * ANSI-136 Native Mode: This is where the mobile is homed to an
  ANSI-136 network and is operating on an ANSI-136 network. In this
  mode, the mobile is able to perform standard ANSI-136 functions
  including text messaging using GHOST SMS and Data services (circuit
  switched at 9600 bps).

     * GSM Foreign Mode: This is where the mobile is homed to an
  ANSI-136 network but is operating on a GSM network. At this time, the
  GSM portion of the phone is operational and the network's
  Interworking and Interoperability Function (IIF) handles the call
  delivery and SMS routing from the ANSI-136 network to the serving GSM
  network.

     * ANSI-136 Foreign Mode: This is where a GSM native subscriber is
  accessing an ANSI-136 network. Again, routing of calls and SMS is
  handled by the network's Interworking and Interoperability Function.

In short, a GAIT phone will be "homed" to either GSM or ANSI-136 (TDMA).
Network selection will be based on standard mechanisms in both
technologies.

Suppose that the GAIT phone scans for service and determines that there
are two networks available for selection, an ANSI-136 Neutral system and
a GSM Neutral system. If the PPI (Protocol Priority Indicator) is set to
ANSI-136 Preferred, then the mobile selects the ANSI-136 Neutral system.
Conversely, if the PPI is set to GSM Preferred, then the mobile selects
the GSM Neutral system.

Suppose that the GAIT phone scans for service and determines that there
are two network available for selection, an ANSI-136 Group A (Home)
system and a GSM Group B (Preferred) system.  The mobile selects the
ANSI-136 system even if the signal is better on the GSM system.

Network selection is a function of preferences configured by the
carrier, not signal strength.  It doesn't matter that the signal might
be better on the other technology.

========================================================================

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Selection of network is controlled by GAIT SIM programming by the
carrier.  The phone will be "homed" to either GSM or TDMA (ANSI-136),
and selection of network will be done by standard mechanisms in those
technologies (Home, Preferred, etc.).

* If a GAIT phone finds both a usable GSM Group B (Preferred) network
and a usable TDMA Group A (Home) network, then the phone selects the
TDMA network, regardless of relative signal strengths, and vice versa.
Home takes precedence over Preferred.

* If a GAIT phone finds both a usable GSM network and a usable TDMA
network of the same priority (e.g., Preferred), and the phone is homed
to TDMA, then the phone selects the TDMA network, regardless of relative
signal strengths.  Conversely, if the phone is homed to GSM, then it
selects the GSM network, regardless of relative signal strengths.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are in an area where GSM is not usable and non-Cingular ANSI-136
is usable, whether or not a Cingular GAIT phone would work on ANSI-136
would depend on the type of available ANSI-136 network.  The phone would
select a Partner, Favored, or Neutral network, in descending order, if
there were any such network(s) with usable signal(s).  It would not
select a Forbidden network, except for emergency calls.

So whether or not *any* (GSM-homed or TDMA-homed) Cingular GAIT phone
would work on TDMA in a GSM-only area (e.g., California) would depend on
(1) TDMA roaming agreement(s) by Cingular, and (2) programming by
Cingular to reflect those roaming agreements.  I doubt that anyone here
knows for sure the answers to those questions, and I suspect it might be
hard to get that information from Cingular, leaving us only with
speculation; i.e., we can't say for sure one way or the other.

========================================================================

Signature

Best regards,        HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas           <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular

Pat - 06 Dec 2003 17:12 GMT
This is the Gait phone I found on Cingular.

http://tinyurl.com/y0mj

In the Greater Boston area and local regions around RTE495, does it nicely
flow between the various towers based on signal strength or does it try to
use GSM and only go to TDMA when there is no GSM or so weak a GSM there is
no other option than TDMA?

> In a word....No! In your area, Cingular may have GSM at every cell site, and
> 95% of their markets will have overlays by the end of the month, but TDMA
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/2003
JAlves - 06 Dec 2003 17:59 GMT
> This is the Gait phone I found on Cingular.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y0mj

This link doesn't work for me.

Signature

Please reply to the group, not by email.  The email address in the
header is not valid unless you remove the obvious.

Aaron Worley - 13 Dec 2003 11:16 GMT
 OK, then: how exactly do you tell what mode the phone is in, on a 6340i?
Aaron Worley
Jud Hardcastle - 13 Dec 2003 16:23 GMT
>   OK, then: how exactly do you tell what mode the phone is in, on a 6340i?
> Aaron Worley

Quickest way I've found: select menu--select messages--scroll up two
clicks to "Service command editor".  If it's grayed out you're NOT on
GSM.  Some of the call forwarding options are also grayed out on
TDMA/amps and the options themselves behave differently.  On GSM, if
call forwarding is active (or you have voicemail) when you PLACE a call
you'll hear a beep and the display will say something like "call
forwarding active".  The only way I've found to distinguish TDMA from
AMPS is via the field test screens--and the lack of SMS messages :-)

PITA.  Why couldn't they have a G/T/A indicator--oh I forget--the poor
consumer isn't supposed to know or care which system he's on--right.  
Signature

Jud
Dallas TX USA

Bob Niles - 13 Dec 2003 21:02 GMT
>>   OK, then: how exactly do you tell what mode the phone is in, on a 6340i?
>> Aaron Worley

While on a call if the lower right corner displays "MUTE" , you are on
TDMA or analog.  If Hold is displayed you are on GSM.
Aaron Worley - 26 Dec 2003 09:47 GMT
>TDMA or analog.

...thanks guys...now another question: TDMA is the digital signal that followed
AMPS, the original analog signal...is this correct? Oh yeah, and what are
"field test screens", and SMS messages??
   Muchas gracias...
Aaron Worley
Joseph - 26 Dec 2003 16:31 GMT
>Oh yeah, and what are
>"field test screens", and SMS messages??

SMS = Short Message System.  Part of the GSM spec. which other
technologies also used.  Earlier TDMA phones could only accept
messages and could not originate messages.  Some carriers such as
Sprint PCS don't have traditional SMS in that you need to go to the
web to retrieve messages.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          add .com to reply
Chris Russell - 26 Dec 2003 18:55 GMT
To find how to get a Nokia 6340i in to field test mode see this link:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:chris.russell%40aemail4u.com&start=10&h
l=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=68f75104.0312210601.d909ac%40posting.google.com&rnum=11&f
ilter=0


Chris
please respond on Usenet
Happy Holidays!

> >TDMA or analog.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>     Muchas gracias...
> Aaron Worley
Chris Russell - 26 Dec 2003 18:37 GMT
My 6340i usually doesn't beep the call forwarding notice very much
anymore.  I do have menu 12 'Field Test'.  I usually get the GSM
carrier on my alpha tag, but I can get ATT Wireless and
VoiceStream(T-Mobile) as these or Cingular Extend.  I've gotten
Einsein PCS, Iowa Wireless, USA 350, 390, 450(US Cellular) and
Microcell(Canadian) among others.

Chris
Please respond on Usenet
Happy Holidays!

> Quickest way I've found: select menu--select messages--scroll up two
> clicks to "Service command editor".  If it's grayed out you're NOT on
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> PITA.  Why couldn't they have a G/T/A indicator--oh I forget--the poor
> consumer isn't supposed to know or care which system he's on--right.
Aaron Worley - 29 Dec 2003 00:43 GMT
Hey Chris, I tried to send this to your e-mail address, but couldn't firgure
out how to do it...and went to usenet, and they wanted to charge me to send you
something...thanks, Aaron Worley
   Hey, sorry to bother you...you seem to know more about this subject than
Cingular does! What exactly is the purpose of "field test mode"? Is it possible
to re-assign which signal my 6340i will look for first?
  Also, another question, if you're inclined to answer: I've been using my
6340i as a modem with my laptop for internet...however, I'm in Northern
Michigan now (UP) and the phone is on AMPS, I'm pretty sure, and I'm not able
to get through to the Cingular dial-up number like normal...is this because
data can't be transmitted through analog signals?
  Thanks a whole bunch,

Aaron"Wes" Worley
Aaron Worley
Chris Russell - 29 Dec 2003 23:09 GMT
Wes, the field test mode will allow you to see whether you are on GSM,
TDMA or AMPS.  Section 01-01 thru 01-13 are for GSM only and 01-01
will show you the channel you are on and the signal strength (usually
-49 to [-]113-the lower number the better the signal strength) and
will list CCCH.  A few screens later it will show the channels
available.  01-09 wil show the LAC (local [gsm]area code and CID (cell
id-similar to TDMA/AMPS SID).  Some of the later 01 pages, do not fool
with them as you can change them.  21-01 thru 21-09 are for TDMA/AMPS
only.  On 21-01 you will see signal strength, channel #, channel state
and DCCH for TDMA and ACCH for AMPS.  21-02 will show you the SID as
the lower right #.  You will get an idea of the other screens if you
use field test mode.  Also, on any screen you can press * for two
seconds and a cryptic explanation will come up, then press * again for
two seconds to get back. You will not have any control of which signal
it picks, it will all be autonatic.  I have no info on modem usage on
the 6340i as I don't use my phone as a modem.  When I'm on the road in
my 18-wheeler, I use Flying J's Wi-Fi at a couple hundred (and
growing) truckstops around the country.  I got an introductory rate of
$99.95 (has now gone up to $199.95 -still a good rate compared to the
rip-off WI-Fi in hotels, airports, etc.) for one year of service.  At
home I have SBC/Yahoo DSL.

Chris
Please respond on Usenet in the newsgroup
Happy Holidays!

> Hey Chris, I tried to send this to your e-mail address, but couldn't firgure
> out how to do it...and went to usenet, and they wanted to charge me to send you
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Aaron"Wes" Worley
> Aaron Worley
Chris Russell - 26 Dec 2003 18:26 GMT
It will try to hold a Cingular signal either GSM or TDMA before it
will search for another carrier.  And it will hold it down to 0 bars
of signal strength, usually the point that it will switch.  This is
one of the few problems with the 6340i.  I was in Earle, AR at the TA
truckstop and it would keep switching from a 1 bar Cingular signal to
a 6 bar ATTWS signal.  It drove me nuts trying to make a call.

Chris
Please respond on Usenet
Happy Holidays!

> This is the Gait phone I found on Cingular.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> use GSM and only go to TDMA when there is no GSM or so weak a GSM there is
> no other option than TDMA?
 
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