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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Cingular / December 2003

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What Band GSM?

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cc0057160 - 24 Dec 2003 17:07 GMT
Can anyone tell me if Cingular's GSM is 800 or 1900?  Is it the same system
wide, or area specific?  I am in Central Indiana, and it seems to be 1900,
but I can't get a straight answer locally.

Ken
John S. - 24 Dec 2003 19:20 GMT
>Can anyone tell me if Cingular's GSM is 800 or 1900?  Is it the same system
>wide, or area specific?  

They have both. And it is area specific.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Joseph - 24 Dec 2003 20:46 GMT
>Can anyone tell me if Cingular's GSM is 800 or 1900?  Is it the same system
>wide, or area specific?  I am in Central Indiana, and it seems to be 1900,
>but I can't get a straight answer locally.

cingular is 1900 on the west coast.  It's 1900 in NC and SC and part
of eastern TN.  Most of the rest of cingular is GSM "850" (800.)

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Jack D. Russell, Sr. - 24 Dec 2003 21:19 GMT
I'm in central IN too. My MotoT720 is 850/1900 GSM so that leaves 800
out, I would think. Must be 1900.

c> Can anyone tell me if Cingular's GSM is 800 or 1900?  Is it the same
c> system wide, or area specific?  I am in Central Indiana, and it
c> seems to be 1900, but I can't get a straight answer locally.

Signature

Jack

bgmncwj - 24 Dec 2003 21:25 GMT
850mhz is the same as 800mhz.

--bgmncwj

> I'm in central IN too. My MotoT720 is 850/1900 GSM so that leaves 800
> out, I would think. Must be 1900.
>
> c> Can anyone tell me if Cingular's GSM is 800 or 1900?  Is it the same
> c> system wide, or area specific?  I am in Central Indiana, and it
> c> seems to be 1900, but I can't get a straight answer locally.
John S. - 25 Dec 2003 02:52 GMT
>I'm in central IN too. My MotoT720 is 850/1900 GSM so that leaves 800
>out, I would think. Must be 1900.

850 is really 800. Same set of frequencies and same lisences. For some reason
someone along the line decided to bastardize the band and call it 850.

Kinda like 19th street in Austin Texas - someone along the way decided to call
it "Martin Luther King Jr Blvd Day".

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Chris Russell - 25 Dec 2003 15:11 GMT
In Indiana, that is a transition market, it should be 850 for
Cingular. Although I just went to WirelessAdvisor.com and saw that
Cingular does indeed have a license for 1900 TDMA/AMPS that can be
transitioned to GSM in Indianapolis.  I think that came when they
bought a small carrier 2 years ago and also gave us native 1900
coverage in Monroe, MI.  Both ATTWS and T-Mobile have 1900 GSM service
in Indianapolis also.  If 1900 is deployed properly, it is irrelevant
whether you have 850(800) or 1900 GSM.  Cingular uses both 850(800)
and 1900 through it's system for TDMA/AMPS/GSM.  CA is only 1900 GSM.

Chris
Plese respond on Usenet
Happy Holidays!

> Can anyone tell me if Cingular's GSM is 800 or 1900?  Is it the same system
> wide, or area specific?  I am in Central Indiana, and it seems to be 1900,
> but I can't get a straight answer locally.
>
> Ken
cc0057160 - 25 Dec 2003 15:21 GMT
Thanks for all the responses.  My main concern is with building penetration.
As far as I know, the lower freq (800 or 850) would penetrate a building
better than the 1900 band.  Especially in a basement level area, where I
spend a great deal of my work days.

Ken

>  If 1900 is deployed properly, it is irrelevant
> whether you have 850(800) or 1900 GSM.  Cingular uses both 850(800)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >
> > Ken
Joseph - 25 Dec 2003 19:19 GMT
>Thanks for all the responses.  My main concern is with building penetration.
>As far as I know, the lower freq (800 or 850) would penetrate a building
>better than the 1900 band.  Especially in a basement level area, where I
>spend a great deal of my work days.

Despite the hype 1900 is just as good as 850 provided that you are
near enough to the base station.     People somehow think that 850 is
some sort of magic bullet.  It is not.  You can have crappy 850
coverage as well as crappy 1900 coverage.  850 in a basement won't
mean anything if you're in a poor reception area.  It's the very
nature of radio communication which is what cellular telephony is.

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John S. - 26 Dec 2003 19:01 GMT
>Despite the hype 1900 is just as good as 850 provided that you are
>near enough to the base station.  

Duhhhhh........

What he said he was concerned about was building penetration. He is correct in
that the lower frequencies WILL penetrate better than the higher frequencies.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Joseph - 26 Dec 2003 23:32 GMT
>>Despite the hype 1900 is just as good as 850 provided that you are
>>near enough to the base station.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>What he said he was concerned about was building penetration. He is correct in
>that the lower frequencies WILL penetrate better than the higher frequencies.

But it doesn't make *any* difference if you are close enough to the
base station.  All the hype in the world about 850 GSM isn't going to
change that fact.
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John S. - 27 Dec 2003 12:35 GMT
>But it doesn't make *any* difference if you are close enough to the
>base station.  All the hype in the world about 850 GSM isn't going to
>change that fact.

No, you don't seem to understand my statement or the reality of the situation.
Frequency penetration of anything has nothing to do with closeness and
everything to do with physics. An 800 signal will penetrate better than a 1900
signal. It has nothing to do with the location of the base station.

Has nothing to do with "hype".

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Joseph - 27 Dec 2003 22:55 GMT
>>But it doesn't make *any* difference if you are close enough to the
>>base station.  All the hype in the world about 850 GSM isn't going to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Has nothing to do with "hype".

Well, I've been in the real world situations and I can tell you that a
higher frequency carrier often times will beat the performance of the
lower frequency carrier including penetration of buildings.  Anyone
who says it makes no difference as far as building penetration using
how close the base station doesn't appear to know what he's talking
about despite his being an "expert" on the subject.  Maybe in theory
it makes a difference.  Reality says something else again.

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Jer - 28 Dec 2003 11:28 GMT
>>>But it doesn't make *any* difference if you are close enough to the
>>>base station.  All the hype in the world about 850 GSM isn't going to
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
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>            add .com to reply

I'm sorry guys, but without empirical evidence in the form of microvolt
RF measurements from multiple points both outside and inside the same
building for both frequency bands, this is all pure conjecture and
happenstance.  This would not only provide detailed real-time data to
stand on it's own merits, but would eliminate the inherent incongruities
 that are part and parcel to differing receiver sensitivities and
display segmentation designs.  You say tuh-may-to and I say tuh-mah-to
and all that other rubbish just isn't gonna cut it.

Signature

jer  email reply - I am not a 'ten'  ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know."  -- Richard Wilbur

John Smith - 29 Dec 2003 06:57 GMT
The 850 MHz vs. 1900 MHz debate is like comparing apples & oranges.

Shorter wavelengths tend to fare better (read: penetrate into tunnels and
buildings) better than longer wavelengths. This is because the aperture size
determines how low it will admit RF to pass. Thus, a larger aperture will
allow lower frequencies to pass than a smaller opening. The "penetration"
also consists of signal bounce, allowing it penetrate deeper. Keep in mind
there are limits. A longer bounce path increases the possibility of
interference from a co-inciding signal bounce. Also, RF needs a clear path
so don't expect flawless performance in an all-metal elevator.

Another upshot of 1900: it can carry higher data transfer rates than 850.
The downshot is shorter wavelengths have more "path loss", so a 1900 MHz
signal needs a lot more power to go the same distance as an 850 MHz RF
source. This is a major source of coverage headaches for the carriers that
used 1900 MHz-only.

Summary: all factors equal (especially power levels at the point of entry),
1900 will cover the interior of a building better. In real life this doesn't
always happen, which is one reason why the cell sites sometimes signal the
telephone to drop down to 850MHz if the 1900MHz doesn't have a good RF path.

This information came from years of testing before it was released to the
public.

Jer wrote in message ...
...>An 800 signal will penetrate better than a 1900
...

>> Well, I've been in the real world situations and I can tell you that a
>> higher frequency carrier often times will beat the performance of the
>> lower frequency carrier including penetration of buildings...
Jer - 29 Dec 2003 11:31 GMT
> The 850 MHz vs. 1900 MHz debate is like comparing apples & oranges.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> This information came from years of testing before it was released to the
> public.

Well, okay then, if you're gonna get all sensible about this, I'm
willing to accept RF measurements in decibels in lieu of microvolts, but
the datapoints must be for non-coincident signal paths - because
multipath can be a bitch to sort out.  One building floor will have
steel lockers all over the place and another floor will have carpet on
the walls - apples and oranges everywhere.  Now, how many segments was
that fella's red herring showing?

Signature

jer  email reply - I am not a 'ten'  ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know."  -- Richard Wilbur

John Smith - 29 Dec 2003 22:22 GMT
>because
>multipath can be a bitch to sort out.

Nearly everything's digital now. Bit error rate and signal quality are
inversely related...low or no BER=good signal, high BER=problem in RF path.
When multipath appears the bit error rate takes off, so we only  take
readings with BER at or very near zero. Plus BER can be read remotely, which
saves a lot of windshield time.

Hope this helped.
Chris Russell - 26 Dec 2003 00:25 GMT
This ia a real-world example of 1900 vs 800.  In my apartment in the
very East side of Metro Detroit, my Cingular 800 TDMA, GSM, AMPS
service is at best 3 bars of service and usually 1-2.  My Sprint 1900
CDMA is usually 3-4 bars and is the only one I can use in the basement
on a regular basis.  Usualy the Cingular phone will ring in the
basement, but you can't have a 2-way conversation.  The best thing you
could do is to test friend's phones on different services where you
want coverage to see the real-world comparison.  As I posted
previously, what would be the result if the 1900 tower was 500 feet
and the 800 tower was 1 mile from your basement?  I think the 1900
service would put the 800 service to shame.  All things are relative,
there is no set answer.

Chris
Please respond on Usenet
Happy Holidays

> Thanks for all the responses.  My main concern is with building penetration.
> As far as I know, the lower freq (800 or 850) would penetrate a building
> better than the 1900 band.  Especially in a basement level area, where I
> spend a great deal of my work days.
>
> Ken
 
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