Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Fido / January 2005
Rogers Wireless curbs Fido unit
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Norman - 27 Jan 2005 17:52 GMT I'm surprised nobody's posted this yet.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_T ype1&c=Article&cid=1106779811499&call_pageid=970599119419
Jan. 27, 2005. 01:00 AM
Rogers Wireless curbs Fido unit `Redesign' raises calling costs
Two new plans starting in March
TYLER HAMILTON TECHNOLOGY REPORTER Toronto Star
Rogers Wireless Inc. has put Fido on a shorter leash less than three months after acquiring its master, Microcell Telecommunications Inc., by upping the cost, capping the talk time and shrinking the coverage of its "unlimited" CityFido plan.
Analysts said the changes, what Rogers is calling a "redesign," signal that competition in Canada's wireless industry is beginning to cool off as the three service providers left in the market put more emphasis on profits than subscriber growth.
The situation stands in contrast with the U.S. market, where wireless plans generally offer more value for less money.
"The bad thing about all of this is we're going to get back to where the carriers are very conservative," said Mark Quigley, Canadian managing director for the Yankee Group, a technology research firm.
"The Canadian carriers definitely have not been as aggressive on the price side as they have been in the U.S. market. From a consumer's perspective it certainly is a shot."
CityFido created a stir when it was first introduced because it offered unlimited local calls for just $45, including the $6.95 monthly system access fee its rivals routinely charge. Montreal-based Microcell promoted the controversial plan as a replacement for traditional local-phone services provided by Telus Corp. and Bell Canada.
When it was introduced in Vancouver in late 2003 and in Toronto last May, the flat-rate plan sparked pricing battles in each market as Bell and Telus moved to defend their respective turfs.
"What CityFido was trying to do was get rid of that local phone," said Brian Sharwood, a telecom analyst with the Seaboard Group in Toronto. "It was saying to people, `Why are you wasting that money on Bell?'"
After Rogers acquired Microcell last fall to become the country's largest wireless provider, it surprised analysts by going ahead with the launch of CityFido in Montreal. It did, however, slightly increase the monthly cost and hinted that bigger changes were likely to come.
Beginning March 1, the redesigned CityFido will be sold as two plans, both "smaller in size and more urban-focused," said Rogers.
The first offers 750 minutes for $45 a month; the second offers 1,500 minutes for $65. Each plan's local coverage area has been greatly reduced, and calls made outside the local zone will cost 50 cents a minute.
"It's pricey," said Sharwood, pointing out that the 50 cent a minute charge for calls outside the local calling zone harkens back to cellular prices of the late 1980s and those large bricklike phones.
"And it's nice to know they understand urban lifestyle needs. Apparently those needs were not met by an unlimited plan."
Rogers said the system access fee, local number portability, as well as call waiting, call forwarding and conference call services will continue to be included in both plans. Calls that exceed minute caps will cost an additional 30 cents a minute.
Existing CityFido customers will be protected from the changes for a year or until the end of their service agreements, Rogers said.
Quigley said the decision, while it makes good business sense for Rogers and its shareholders, is going to anger many CityFido subscribers who, after the effort of liberating themselves from their local phone company, will face paying more or going back to Bell.
Analysts also pointed out that the changes benefit Virgin Mobile Canada, which is planning to launch mobile phone services any week now and is expected to aggressively target disgruntled wireless users.
"This will fall into their hands," said Sharwood. "They'll be like, `You've been lied to again, come to us.' "
- --- Norman Please reply via group. E-mail ID does not exist.
sbdot - 27 Jan 2005 19:38 GMT Wow. From 'unlimited' to 750mins, added monthly service fee, reduced coverage, 50 cent/min roaming. I guess the government really knew what they were doing when they figured that competition wouldn't be affected by this merger. And they wonder why people are against bank mergers (I canceled my Canada Trust account after the TD merger because my promised 'no fee changes' had my montly fees go from $3 to $11). And don't get us started on the raging success of merging Canada's only two major airlines.
Back to the topic: The thing about Virgin Mobile is that, from what little I've read, they won't be offereing GSM service, so it's really no help to disgruntled Rogers/Fido customers. I, as well as many others I would suspect, liked having GSM service because I could use my triband mobile when travelling. A Virgin Mobile reselling Bell Mobility won't help me.
> I'm surprised nobody's posted this yet. > [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > Norman > Please reply via group. E-mail ID does not exist. JF Mezei - 27 Jan 2005 20:53 GMT > Back to the topic: The thing about Virgin Mobile is that, from what > little I've read, they won't be offereing GSM service, so it's really no > help to disgruntled Rogers/Fido customers. Unfortunatly, the majority of customers don't know the difference between CDMA and GSM. And they are used to the fact that changing carriers requires changing handsets.
Come to think of it, Rogers's move to sabotage Fido at this point in time may not be so stupid. If removing all the good packages from the market now means that Virgin will be able to price their packages higher, it is good for Rogers, Bell, Telus.
If Fido were allowed to retain their competitive pricing, it means that Virgin would match them. And then, when Rogers would remove those packages, Virgin would end up with a clear pricing advantage over all the others.
So this is in fact reverse comnpetition where people raise their rates so that the new entrant won't offer very low rates, and the legacy carriers can then afford to lower their rates to appear to be competing against the new entrant. (a bit like raising price of items and the next day announcing a sale that brings the price back to what it use dto be).
sbdot - 27 Jan 2005 21:07 GMT I will be calling to cancel my fido account at the end of this billing cycle. I have a pretty sweet deal, but the service is noticeably deteriorating in my area and I suspect that my fees are going to increase shortly. The only question that I have is what if anything I can do about keeping my number. I haven't been keeping up, but what's the deal with number portability as it stands now? I could opt to switch to prepaid until I manage to get in touch with everyone I would want to communicate a new number to, but that would be giving Rogers something every month. I want them to get nary a nickel from me, seeing as they don't deserve it.
>>Back to the topic: The thing about Virgin Mobile is that, from what >>little I've read, they won't be offereing GSM service, so it's really no [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > against the new entrant. (a bit like raising price of items and the next > day announcing a sale that brings the price back to what it use dto be). JF Mezei - 27 Jan 2005 21:58 GMT > I will be calling to cancel my fido account at the end of this billing > cycle. I have a pretty sweet deal, but the service is noticeably > deteriorating in my area and I suspect that my fees are going to > increase shortly. ... I want them to get nary a nickel from me, seeing > as they don't deserve it. While I also dislike Rogers, and deplore the disapearance of Fido, until I find a better deal than what I currently have, I have to bite my tongue and keep paying what is now rogers.
When Fido comes to me and tells me my deal is finished and I must eother get a 2 year contract or see a hige price increase, then I will shop around to see what is available. The day Fido introduced contracts, they lost something which was very valuable: loyalty.
They used to have the lowest churn rate, until the period where they started messing up SMS, web site, email etc. They went to one with the highest churn rate.
Note: from what I have read, the GRPS offering on Ragers is 2 tiered. There is a low end GPRS services that gives you just WAP and no IP address visible to the internet, and the full services which gives you a routable IP address which you can use from laptop. i.e. the base one is really just for WAP and possibly retrieve/send email from handset, the second tier, much more expensive, is for what we get here on Fido: real GPRS service.
JF Mezei - 27 Jan 2005 20:48 GMT > CityFido created a stir when it was first introduced because it offered > unlimited local calls for just $45, including the $6.95 monthly system access Actually, it was $40 at first. Weeks later they upped it to $45 when the realised how popular it was :-)
> The first offers 750 minutes for $45 a month; the second offers 1,500 minutes > for $65. Each plan's local coverage area has been greatly reduced, and calls > made outside the local zone will cost 50 cents a minute. Ted Rogers's comments about Rogers being a premium brand, and Fido being a low end brand seem to be key to understanding this. My guess is that Rogers will or already has plans which are better then the 750 minutes for $45, especially when you consider the exchorbitant $0.50 charges when you cycle out of the downtown area.
Rogers is effectively killing CityFido. No surprise there. It isn't as if they hadn't given out hints on this.
What puzzles me though is WHY they are doing this. I can understand Rogers hating City Fido when it was a competitor since Fido was stealing customers. But that very success should have been welcome now that Rogers owns Fido.
Rogers has access to real data about CityFido usage, how many minutes on average are being used and the actual profitability. Considering that Microcell had just existed from bankrupcy when it introduced CityFido, I can't believe that it would have been a money losing thing. Or was it just a trick to raise ARPU (a metric very important to measure a wireless network's performance) even if it lost loney ?
From a PR point of view, it is a total cataclismic mistake, especially in Vancouver. Rogers had a foothold through Microcell in Vancouver, competing against Telus and having a huge advantage over Telus. Now that it is Telus vs Bell vs Rogers, such a competitive edge should have been considered like gold instead of sh.t.
Rogers had made plenty of promises to maintain packages and maintain Fido etc etc. While I knew that such promises would be broken because I have observed many mergers in the past, this will really piss off MANY customers who will no longer trust Rogers to take care of Fido.
But in the end, those customers will look around, find nothing that is competitive, and reluctantly sign a 2 years contract, hoping that within 2 years, something will have happened to make mobile phones affordable again in Canada.
Rogers seems to be very good have keeping disgruntled customers who hate Rogers but who are forced to stay with Rogers.
And during the heydays of Fido (first 5 years before they ruined SMS and their web site which signaled the start of downdard trend), Fido had 0 contracts and knew that they had to be very nice to customers and couldn't afford to piss them off.
Rogers is very much a monopoly in tersm of mentality where it feels no need to keep customer shpapy and knows exactly how mcuh it can screw customers without customers leaving.
Bell is far mroe professional in that regards with much more subtle ways of screwing customers at the same time as making cutsomers feel good about it.
> Rogers said the system access fee, local number portability, as well as call > waiting, call forwarding and conference call services will continue to be > included in both plans. Calls that exceed minute caps will cost an additional 30 > cents a minute. Well, there is a positive in all that... Since Rogers now added the $6.95 extorsion fee, it seems that it will remove it when it introduces the extorsion package where the extorsion fee is included :-) :-)
0.30 per minute for excess minutes is ridiculous. But I bet that these new packages will also include using Rogers's network.
> Existing CityFido customers will be protected from the changes for a year or > until the end of their service agreements, Rogers said. So, the big question now: if they introduce those extorsion packagees June 1 2005, grand father non-contract CityFido customers for 1 year, does this mean that a customers could remain no-contract for 11 months, and in May 2006 call to get a 2 year contract at his existing rate (thus keeping the real cityfido for 3 years). ???
> Analysts also pointed out that the changes benefit Virgin Mobile Canada, Until they start to advertise packages, we have no idea what they plan to do. And because they don't own the network, I somehow doubt that bell will allow Virgin to provide a tru CityFido unlimited equivalent.
Remember that Rogers is now the only network that allows roaming outside of north america. Virgin's wrong choice of technology will make it useless and its own customers will continue to roam on Rogers when they visit canada from abroad.
malingerer@gmail.com - 28 Jan 2005 00:31 GMT Your whole post points to your lack of insight.
You mention Rogers coming out with a better plan at $45? Why would they? They want to drive revenue higher than that and have customers pay more than that ($45 is not high end). City Fido for Fido itself was a great product and provided a great boost to their bottom line, but it must have been degrading Rogers revenue (I can't imagine what it did to Telus and Bell). With Fido now owned by Rogers they would need to manage their business with respect to the whole company, not just Fido.
Fido is grandfathering ALL existing customers for at least the next year, if they go on a contract they can keep the plan in perpetuity. I can't see why customers would be made at that. I know I finally signed a contract when I heard this was changing.
Virgin as a true threat? Funny, not from what I know.. Premium handset prices because of the Virgin brand name, plus CDMA backbone, plus higher per minute rates? You might be suprised to find out how competitors may strike before Virgin launches.
Finally, you will notice not many people frequant this group anymore, only you here most of the time, to bitch to yourself.
> > CityFido created a stir when it was first introduced because it offered > > unlimited local calls for just $45, including the $6.95 monthly system access [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > useless and its own customers will continue to roam on Rogers when they > visit canada from abroad. Amur_ - 28 Jan 2005 02:31 GMT A friend of mine is a CSR for Fido (he's the one who talked me into joining Fido a year ago.) I passed this news item along to him and his comments were:
- Virgin will be offering a pay-as-you-go service.
- Rogers is trying to "annoy" Fido customers into leaving the CityFido plans and switch to capped roaming plans. Fido customers on unlimited plans are now sharing their towers with Rogers customers, congesting their network. Conversly, Fido customers on capped plans are now roaming on Rogers' towers, escaping that congestion. I can't verify any of this, btw. :-)
- he mirrored JF's comments about Rogers eventually using Fido to 'counter-attack' Virgin
I came to Fido to escape Rogers after two years of being treated like an annoyance by their CSRs. Now I'm back in bed with them. At least I'm not locked into a contract. As soon as I see Rogers trying to hike my bill, I'm done. I think I'll drop using cell phones altogether until something more appealling (and not Rogers, Bell or Telus) comes along. I don't mean to sound like I'm pinning my hopes on Virgin, but hey - I saw a little of Rebel Billionaire and Branson seems like a decent guy. ;-)
ttyl, Amur_
JF Mezei - 28 Jan 2005 09:15 GMT > - Rogers is trying to "annoy" Fido customers into leaving the CityFido > plans and switch to capped roaming plans. Fido customers on unlimited > plans are now sharing their towers with Rogers customers, congesting > their network. This would need more explanation. None of the unlimited currently sue Rogers network. But Rogers customers can use Fido's network.
My guess is that Fido wants to transfer 1900 spectrum from Fido towers to Rogers towers so that Rogers can grow. The spectrum was Fido's most valuable asset. But Rogers can't really transfer that spectrum if it is still being used.
I guess that the thinking is that if 2 cityfido customers take up as much bandwidth as 3 Rogers customers, and total revenus from the 3 Rogers customers is higher, then it would pay to get rid of the CityFido customers to free up the bandwdith, transfer it to Rogers and then grow Rogers.
> Conversly, Fido customers on capped plans are now > roaming on Rogers' towers, escaping that congestion. Correct. But this will end at end of February, except for those paying an extra $5.00 per month.
> - he mirrored JF's comments about Rogers eventually using Fido to > 'counter-attack' Virgin That would leave fido only for pre-paid stuff. Which was my prediction from the start: the Fido name will become a product name for Roger's prepaid.
> I came to Fido to escape Rogers after two years of being treated like > an annoyance by their CSRs. I came from Cantel because they were too expensive compared to Fido and wanted 3 year contracts at $26 for 30 minutes (billed per minute) while Fido wanted $20 for 100 minutes, billed by second, and Fido had GSM whilst Rogers was still analogue. And Cantel was renamed to AT&T, and they wouldn't even give me a deal on a replacement battery for my Moto handset which I had paid $1200 in the early 1990s.
Lots of the early Fido adopters have similar stories. But Fido now has a large percentage of its cutsomer base who are first time mobile phone users and don't really know much about Rogers.
> I'm not locked into a contract. As soon as I see Rogers trying to hike > my bill, I'm done. I think I'll drop using cell phones altogether until > something more appealling A lot of us would love to be able to do that. But in the end, Rogers knows full well that as long as its package is $0.xx cheaper than Bell or Telus, that it is still better to stick with Rogers. (The $0.xx is the magic value which Rogers must very carefully evaluate in order to make the price advbantage bigger than the psychocolocal need to give Rogers a kick on the a.s for ruining Fido.
malingerer@gmail.com - 28 Jan 2005 15:06 GMT > I don't mean to sound like I'm pinning my hopes on Virgin, but hey - I > saw a little of Rebel Billionaire and Branson seems like a decent guy. ;-) He is a Billionaire, he is out to make money by maximizing his brand in the marketplace, thus building more wealth. The plan, as with any business in a capitalist society, is to make money, he does a good job. As does Ted Rogers.
Mason Storm - 28 Jan 2005 15:17 GMT <malingerer@gmail.com> wrote in alt.cellular.fido:
> He is a Billionaire, he is out to make money by maximizing his brand > in the marketplace, thus building more wealth. The plan, as with any > business in a capitalist society, is to make money, he does a good > job. As does Ted Rogers. No matter what any of these people make. I am not addicted to my phone. I have a pager that costs me $6.00 with voicemail. I am more than happy to stick with that as there is always a phone around.
 Signature Mason Storm
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JF Mezei - 28 Jan 2005 19:55 GMT > He is a Billionaire, he is out to make money by maximizing his brand in the > marketplace, thus building more wealth. The plan, as with any business in a > capitalist society, is to make money, he does a good job. As does Ted > Rogers. There is a significant difference. Branson is also out to beat old style stuffy establishment. He has attacked British Airways constantly since he started Virgin Atlantic (airline).
The thing is that Branson's enteprises are designed to appear to be low cost, but aren't in fact that low cost. But the marketing is excellent and makes customers feel really good and happy to shop/use Virgin services.
Had the "Fido" brand not been so strong, Microcell would gave been a perfect fit for Virgin Mobile. (forgetting foreign investment rules for a minute). In fact, Branson might have been able to return Microcell to its pre 2000 mentality.
Ted Rogers is more like Conrad Black than Branson. He is out to build an empire. He doesn't care about making customers like him, he knows that he is despised and he doesn't mind. He views customers as a necessary evil.
Remember that from a mobile point of view, Rogers has a very weak brand because of the constant name changes over the years, combined with the bad image Rogers has for its cable operations.
Virgin should have an easy time with its marketing gimmicks to steal lots of customers. If I were Branson, I'd even consider using an airship with a big Virgin logo on it and parade it over many cities. That would really rub it in for Rogers.
malingerer@gmail.com - 29 Jan 2005 02:01 GMT > Ted Rogers is more like Conrad Black than Branson. He is out to build an > empire. He doesn't care about making customers like him, he knows that > he is despised and he doesn't mind. He views customers as a necessary > evil. So.. Ted told you this? That he doesn't care? He has 19,000 employees contributing to Canadian society..
Deep - 29 Jan 2005 04:44 GMT I bet you if he could do it with 10, he would...
It's all about profit, not giving back...
Deep
> > Ted Rogers is more like Conrad Black than Branson. He is out to build an > > empire. He doesn't care about making customers like him, he knows that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So.. Ted told you this? That he doesn't care? He has 19,000 employees > contributing to Canadian society.. monkey cow moon - 28 Jan 2005 23:22 GMT Anyone know how we can complain? Who do we complain to? the CRTC? is there a competition bureau or some sort of government agency that we can complain to?
> I'm surprised nobody's posted this yet. > [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > Norman > Please reply via group. E-mail ID does not exist. JF Mezei - 29 Jan 2005 06:21 GMT > Anyone know how we can complain? Who do we complain to? the CRTC? is > there a competition bureau or some sort of government agency that we can > complain to? Industry Canada is the body in charge of mobile phones. CRTC is useless to begin with and thankfully they don't regulate mobile phones (except for the number portability issue which is part of its jurisdiction over legacy landline carriers).
From a political point of view, the Bloc and NDP are most likely to provide some opposition. The Reform party probably likes the disapearance of Microcell (Québec based) since it re-enforces their western based Telus.
Pavel - 29 Jan 2005 22:14 GMT The dog's been neutered and also being experimented on. We all know what happens to animals when they do this. My guess is that City Fido will be dead within a few years. Here is some info on the latest changes for those who use it in the Vancouver area:
"As of March 1, Surrey, Delta, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, Pitt Meadows, Maple Ridge, Langley, Aldergrove, Mission, Abbotsford and Chilliwack will no longer be served by City Fido."
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/business/story.html?id=f0d7d6a 6-0933-4bbe-b857-51dd4bdee7e7
JF Mezei - 30 Jan 2005 02:35 GMT > http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/business/story.html?id=f0d7d6a 6-0933-4bbe-b857-51dd4bdee7e7 What I find interesting is that despite this, they still insist City Fido continues to exist.
As if anyone is going to find a 5000 minute @ $45 plan to be the same as a 750 minute @ $45 plan.
It is a bit like Via Rail calling a train "The Canadian" when it doesn't even use the same tracks or link the same cities as the real/original train.
Had a brief look at the rogers site. Boy, we had it good with Fido.
for 750 minutes, one has to pay $100 per month with Rogers. It si no wonder Rogers want to get rid of Fido rates ASAP. Note that Rogers charges between 0.20 and 0.25 cents per minute for minutes above on'e plan. So the $0.50 is a true ripoff if they really intend to charge this to Fido customers who choose "City Fido".
The next step I guess is to roll out Wi-Max, and provide mobile IP-telephony and watch that Rogers monster crumble.
malingerer@gmail.com - 30 Jan 2005 08:04 GMT > The next step I guess is to roll out Wi-Max, and provide mobile > IP-telephony and watch that Rogers monster crumble. Ummm.. Wi-Max in Canada has already been secured by Microcell/Inukshuk (ifido trials earlier this year). License already provide to Microcell (now Rogers owned) in 8 out of 10 provinces. http://www.inukshuk.ca/anglais/offre.html is Wi-Max.
repatch - 30 Jan 2005 15:28 GMT On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:04:27 +0000, malingerer wrote:
>> The next step I guess is to roll out Wi-Max, and provide mobile >> IP-telephony and watch that Rogers monster crumble. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (now Rogers owned) in 8 out of 10 provinces. > http://www.inukshuk.ca/anglais/offre.html is Wi-Max. Ahh, you just ruined JF's dreams of some little company coming to his rescue...
That said, WiMax is a protocol that can run on MANY different frequencies, licensed or not. By the time it does come out developing a WiMax network will be VERY cheap, so there will be alot of players.
Hopefully the Canadian government won't do what they do best: protect the interests of the big companies without concern for how much we the consumer are being screwed.
JF Mezei - 30 Jan 2005 20:52 GMT > Ummm.. Wi-Max in Canada has already been secured by Microcell/Inukshuk > (ifido trials earlier this year). License already provide to Microcell (now > Rogers owned) in 8 out of 10 provinces. > http://www.inukshuk.ca/anglais/offre.html is Wi-Max. When did ifido change its infrastructure from the proprietary technology to wimax ? At the time ifido was setup, Wi-Max didn't exist, I am not even sure if the standard has been officially adopted yet.
And are you sure Inukshuk was actually purchased by Rogers ?
malingerer@gmail.com - 30 Jan 2005 20:54 GMT > > Ummm.. Wi-Max in Canada has already been secured by Microcell/Inukshuk > > (ifido trials earlier this year). License already provide to Microcell (now [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And are you sure Inukshuk was actually purchased by Rogers ? MCS was the technology now called Wi-Max. Inukshuk control is fully on the Rogers side now. Not even within FIDO's house anymore.
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