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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Fido / December 2003

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CityFido in Toronto?

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TS - 10 Oct 2003 16:45 GMT
Anyone know of any plans to implement CityFido in Toronto anytime soon?
I got rid of my landline, and would love to be able to have a plan like
CityFido here in Toronto!

--
Group Special Mobile - 11 Oct 2003 18:36 GMT
>Anyone know of any plans to implement CityFido in Toronto anytime soon?
>I got rid of my landline, and would love to be able to have a plan like
>CityFido here in Toronto!

It's being tested in Vancouver.  My understanding is that if it's
successful in Vancouver they'll expand the City Fido service elsewhere
in Canada.
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JF Mezei - 14 Oct 2003 20:43 GMT
> It's being tested in Vancouver.  My understanding is that if it's
> successful in Vancouver they'll expand the City Fido service elsewhere
> in Canada.

I suspect that the word "tested" has a different meaning. When they rolled out
Interac Debit, they first introduced it in Ottawa, then Vancouver, then
Québec, and finally the rest of Canada, including Toronto. Why ? This was
totally new, and they needed to evaluate the resources  that would be needed
to handle the loads. And some of the banks had some hickups. 9I still remember
one bank being "down" for an hour during christmas season, and you can't begin
to imagine the mess it made at a supermarket when customers had put all their
food through, but when came time to pay the amount, their card failed and they
didn't have enough cash to pay.

I do not know if Microcell has access to statistics on calling patterms for
local landline calls. (number of calls, average call duration etc). If not,
they will need to build up solid usage statistics so that they can plan their
network properly.  If you have a senior citizen centre in a cell, and all
grand mothers talk all day on the phone, that will monopolise a LOT of the
limited number of circuits on the cell.

Question to Mr Punter: How much spare capacity does Microcell have in Toronto
? Would a non trivial increase in usage require Microcell to further divide
cells ? Or does Microcell still have spare bandwidth they could open up ?
J. Helmsley - 13 Oct 2003 15:10 GMT
If CityFido come to the east, BELL and FUTUREWAY the local phone companies will
be affected, so I guess when that happens it will draw BELL MOBILITY into the
attack against Fido.

>Anyone know of any plans to implement CityFido in Toronto anytime soon?
>I got rid of my landline, and would love to be able to have a plan like
>CityFido here in Toronto!

.
John. H.
JF Mezei - 14 Oct 2003 21:16 GMT
> If CityFido come to the east, BELL and FUTUREWAY the local phone companies will
> be affected, so I guess when that happens it will draw BELL MOBILITY into the
> attack against Fido.

No, I think that Telus may be a big loser in this. Remember that Telus, whose
natural territory is BC and Alberta, decided to spend the big bucks to venture
out to Ontario/Québec dead against Bell etc. Part of this investment was
geared towards eventually offering local telephone service.

Their infrastructure in BC/ALTA has long been paid for. But they have yet to
get substantial revenus from all the investments they have made on landline
stuff in Ontario/Québec. Remember that this was at a time when telephone lines
were multiplying like rabbits with dial up modems, faxes etc.

Fido can provide voice service with relatively little investment since it
already has a presence. I wouldn't be surprised to see Fido strike some deal
with Shaw since if someone currently drops landline service, the only real
internet you can get is through cable. (no DSL possible).

If Bell/Telus want to remain relevant, they may be forced to allow DSL service
on twsted pairs not associated with voice line. Otherwise they would lose to
cable those customers who drop their landline in favour of mobile phones for voice.

I think that there are interesting times ahead. This will be the true meaning
of convergence, or rather the total opposite: divergence. TV by satellite,
internet by DSL, voice by mobile, instead of everything by cable !
Mark - 15 Oct 2003 05:52 GMT
>Their infrastructure in BC/ALTA has long been paid for.

Not only paid for, but reduced. Remember, they tore down most of the
Clearnet towers and shipped them back east.

On top of that, they've concentrated their advertising, and their best
plans back east...

Another reason to dislike Telus: they treat customers in their own
natural territory like second class citizens. What would have been
right was a nationwide pricing plans (including the slightly sweeter
deals back east) that are applicable to all residents of Canada, not
just Ontario and Quebec.

But the good news is, this "strategy" of the company is about to bite
them on the a.s as more and more Telus hostages finally slip free of
their long term contracts, and leave for greener (read: Fido) pastures
in BC and Alberta.

Mark
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Super Dave - 15 Oct 2003 06:25 GMT
> But the good news is, this "strategy" of the company is about to bite
> them on the a.s as more and more Telus hostages finally slip free of
> their long term contracts, and leave for greener (read: Fido) pastures
> in BC and Alberta.

Yep. And it's even more true when people like me cancel their landlines in
Alberta. Goodbye telus crap.........ripoff long distance, lousy ADSL
service, overloaded wireless etc etc etc. Are you listening telus? DON'T
call me asking why I left and what you can do to get my business back, I
ALREADY TOLD YOU!
J. Helmsley - 19 Oct 2003 06:12 GMT
I don`t think Telus will be that quick to launch local phone service in the
east. There's already 3 local phones providors in the east. Bell Canada,
Sprint, and FCI Broadband (Formerly futureway, fibre to home)

>No, I think that Telus may be a big loser in this. Remember that Telus, whose
>natural territory is BC and Alberta, decided to spend the big bucks to
>venture
>out to Ontario/Québec dead against Bell etc. Part of this investment was
>geared towards eventually offering local telephone service.

.
John. H.
Networkburn - 09 Dec 2003 09:54 GMT
Fido will bring out City Fido beyond B.C...It's simply a matter of
time. They would need to upgrade there network to be able to handle
the increase in call load on the system. Then they have to figure  out
what will be the local calling area for the City...Ottawa for one has
a very large calling area with Fido..You can go to plantagenet and
call alymer Quebec and it will still be a local call...

>I don`t think Telus will be that quick to launch local phone service in the
>east. There's already 3 local phones providors in the east. Bell Canada,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>.
>John. H.
JF Mezei - 09 Dec 2003 10:22 GMT
> Fido will bring out City Fido beyond B.C...It's simply a matter of
> time. They would need to upgrade there network to be able to handle
> the increase in call load on the system.

This isn't a given. Fido was given only so much bandwidth. If X amount of
bandwidth is just enough to cover a city of the population of vancouver, then
X would not be sufficient to handle the load of a city like toronto.

So for Toronto, they may have to do some significant splitting of cells to
make even greater re-use of their bandwidth. If you have to put your cells too
close to each other, does it not start to cause technical problems with
interference between cell sites ?

If Steve Punter starts to have difficulty tracking all the new cell sites in
the GTA, then it will be a big indication that Fido is preparing to launch in
Toronto :-)
Steve Punter - 09 Dec 2003 17:19 GMT
>So for Toronto, they may have to do some significant splitting
>of cells to make even greater re-use of their bandwidth. If you
>have to put your cells too close to each other, does it not start
>to cause technical problems with interference between cell sites ?

Just remember that Fido's site density (even in Toronto) doesn't even begin
to approach what they've been doing in VERY POPULOUS CITIES like Hong Kong
and London. GSM networks in those cities use site densities and mini-cell
schemes that make our urban GSM networks look like rural installations. In
other words, we are a long way from reaching the density limitations of GSM.
Signature

Steve Punter
http://www.arcx.com/sites

JF Mezei - 10 Dec 2003 00:28 GMT
> Just remember that Fido's site density (even in Toronto) doesn't even begin
> to approach what they've been doing in VERY POPULOUS CITIES like Hong Kong
> and London. GSM networks in those cities use site densities and mini-cell
> schemes that make our urban GSM networks look like rural installations. In
> other words, we are a long way from reaching the density limitations of GSM.

Thanks for the information.

However, in going from their current "rural" arrangements to the hong-kong
density, how much of the current infrastructure would be re-used ? If they
want to split one curent cell with heaps of miniature cells, wouldn't this
mean that they would de-activate the large antenna so that it wouldn't
interfere with the mini-cells ?
Steve Punter - 10 Dec 2003 18:36 GMT
To build a network based solely upon mini-cells would require an incredible
density. It is unlikely that we'll see anything on that scale in Canada for
quite some time. In the meantime the network will likely consist of macro
and mini sites co-existing.
Signature

Steve Punter
http://www.arcx.com/sites

AndrewH - 09 Dec 2003 17:23 GMT
>>Fido will bring out City Fido beyond B.C...It's simply a matter of
>>time. They would need to upgrade there network to be able to handle
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bandwidth is just enough to cover a city of the population of vancouver, then
> X would not be sufficient to handle the load of a city like toronto.

The issue is (roughly) users per tower. Vancouver is as dense (people
per square kilimeter) as Toronto, if not more so.

> So for Toronto, they may have to do some significant splitting of cells to
> make even greater re-use of their bandwidth. If you have to put your cells too
> close to each other, does it not start to cause technical problems with
> interference between cell sites

I believe the engineering gets a a little more difficult, but it is
manageable down to very small sites. GSM works fine in London England,
Taiwan, China, and other places with more phones per person, and more
persons per square kilometer, so there should be no difficulty. Just an
issue of cost of towers.
?

> If Steve Punter starts to have difficulty tracking all the new cell sites in
> the GTA, then it will be a big indication that Fido is preparing to launch in
> Toronto :-)

Look forward to hearing this.
 
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