Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Fido / December 2003
What will Fido do?
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PublicNews - 30 Nov 2003 07:16 GMT Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones to existing Fido users in order to lure them because they all want to kill the smallest but most aggressive provider. Smart consumers like us can usually tell this is a smoke screen thrown by competitors. But most un-educated consumers could not tell the difference and easily be lured away by their cheap or zero cost phone offers despite contracts.
What do you think is the best strategy for Fido to fight back these big tidal waves? Not only to be able to stand up against the bigger competitors but beat them hands down.
http://www.ihaterogers.ca If you hate Rogers, come visit here to see other alternatives.
Daniel Correia - 30 Nov 2003 07:21 GMT I've notice just really recently, my friend bought a fido moto v60i about 1-2 weeks ago for 50.00 plus tax on the spot with phone activated, and now another friend of mine bought one today for $25.00!!!!! at fido, they seem to have lowered the price even more recently, its insane, the war that has begun with all these cell phone companies, question is whats yet to come?
> Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals > (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://www.ihaterogers.ca If you hate Rogers, come visit here to see > other alternatives. Pavel - 30 Nov 2003 08:35 GMT Where did he get it for $25?? Please DO TELL!!
: I've notice just really recently, my friend bought a fido moto v60i about : 1-2 weeks ago for 50.00 plus tax on the spot with phone activated, and now : another friend of mine bought one today for $25.00!!!!! at fido, they seem : to have lowered the price even more recently, its insane, the war that has : begun with all these cell phone companies, question is whats yet to come? Chopz - 30 Nov 2003 15:55 GMT Go to any Teleplus store in Toronto or Montreal & get it for $25, while quantities last.
> Where did he get it for $25?? Please DO TELL!! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > : to have lowered the price even more recently, its insane, the war that has > : begun with all these cell phone companies, question is whats yet to come? Pavel - 30 Nov 2003 19:05 GMT I might as well pay the $50 because the airfare from Vancouver far exceeds any savings ;-) Goes to show you the East gets the perks while the West doesn't.
: Go to any Teleplus store in Toronto or Montreal & get it for $25, while : quantities last. Nobody - 30 Nov 2003 15:59 GMT My friend bought his yesterday for 0$!!! He got it La Cabine Telephonique (in downtown Montreal). And he even got 3 free accessories (leather, car charger, handsfree)! I think he got the last one though.
CU
> Where did he get it for $25?? Please DO TELL!! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > : to have lowered the price even more recently, its insane, the war that has > : begun with all these cell phone companies, question is whats yet to come? Daniel Correia - 30 Nov 2003 17:16 GMT Fido Flagship Store @ Dufferin Mall (900 Dufferin Street, Toronto)
> Where did he get it for $25?? Please DO TELL!! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > : to have lowered the price even more recently, its insane, the war that has > : begun with all these cell phone companies, question is whats yet to come? Jimbo - 30 Nov 2003 17:49 GMT > Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals > (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://www.ihaterogers.ca If you hate Rogers, come visit here to see > other alternatives. The only thing that Fido has to do to compete is to grow it's revenues and this is usually done by increasing customer numbers. In this business, churn has always been a problem and Fido needs to avoid that by providing excellent customer service and competitive rates. It seems to me that their rates are pretty good but customer service can often be "lacking". Other *small* things: reduce the cost of SMS messages (especially between Fido customers, since that doesn't cost as much as inter-operator) so that people have an incentive to use it more. Allow access to voicemail from landlines without charge.
Just a couple of thoughts .......
Group Special Mobile - 30 Nov 2003 19:37 GMT >Allow access to voicemail from >landlines without charge. It is already free from land lines if you are on post paid. Prepaid uses air time. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To send an email reply send to GSMthemobilestandard (@) yahoo.com
Steve Punter - 30 Nov 2003 20:41 GMT >It is already free from land lines if you are on post paid. >Prepaid uses air time. Actually, it's free on pre-paid too. Just make sure you call one of the voicemail access numbers (like 416-822-1123 in Toronto) rather than your own cell phone number.
 Signature Steve Punter http://www.arcx.com/sites
repatch - 30 Nov 2003 21:42 GMT > >Allow access to voicemail from > >landlines without charge. > > It is already free from land lines if you are on post paid. Prepaid > uses air time. No, it does not. If you call the VM server number directly NOTHING is deducted from your prepaid account. TTYL
repatch - 30 Nov 2003 21:41 GMT > The only thing that Fido has to do to compete is to grow it's revenues and > this is usually done by increasing customer numbers. In this business, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > people have an incentive to use it more. Allow access to voicemail from > landlines without charge. I agree with you on the SMS, however getting VM over landline has been free for as long as I've been with Fido, and that goes back almost to the begining of Fido. TTYL
SB - 01 Dec 2003 23:26 GMT They should have it like the rest of the GSM world does. Free to receive, pay ten of fifteen cents to send an SMS.
It would be great if they did that with calls as well, but that would require an overhaul of the entire system (because ppl calling your cell from landlines would all of a sudden have to start paying to cover the mobile providers fees).
> > The only thing that Fido has to do to compete is to grow it's revenues and > > this is usually done by increasing customer numbers. In this business, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > free for as long as I've been with Fido, and that goes back almost to the > begining of Fido. TTYL Blandine Bigard - 03 Dec 2003 14:54 GMT > They should have it like the rest of the GSM world does. Free to receive, > pay ten of fifteen cents to send an SMS. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > landlines would all of a sudden have to start paying to cover the mobile > providers fees). They try this in the US in the beginnig of cellular and it dosn't work. Pepole in NA are used to phone for free. They never pay to call a local phone or cell except if the call is long distance. In europe it's different. With your landline there you need to pay for ANY call, call to cell phone are just more expensive than others. Also when you call for order a train ticket or for a problem with your internet connexion, you pay a premuim charge so this call cost ever more. Only "green" numers are free and this is very rare at least in France where I go often. Try this in NA, good luck. It's true than the eurpean system is better, you pay for the call you made and not to recieve calls you don't want. Also this model stimulate the sell of cell phones because it cost less to call a cell phone with another one than with landline.
Group Special Mobile - 03 Dec 2003 17:23 GMT >They should have it like the rest of the GSM world does. Free to receive, >pay ten of fifteen cents to send an SMS. I have yet to understand what's the great advantage of caller pays. The receiver doesn't pay anything to receive but the caller pays through the nose. Would you really like to pay the equivalent of CAD .60 per minute to call your bud's mobile?
>It would be great if they did that with calls as well, but that would >require an overhaul of the entire system (because ppl calling your cell from >landlines would all of a sudden have to start paying to cover the mobile >providers fees). And at quite a handsome rate as well!
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repatch - 03 Dec 2003 17:37 GMT > >They should have it like the rest of the GSM world does. Free to receive, > >pay ten of fifteen cents to send an SMS. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > through the nose. Would you really like to pay the equivalent of CAD > .60 per minute to call your bud's mobile? So you'd rather have your bud paying 60 cents/minute when you call him? That doesn't sound very fair does it? Caller pays makes things fair, the initiator pays. I was in Europe this summer and I must say the caller pays system makes things MUCH simpler. You never "resist" picking up your phone, since you don't pay for calls you receive. And you don't blindly call people because you know YOU'LL be paying for the call. It just makes much more sense.
Consider this: if I call another cellular user here two people are paying, I'm paying to call on my cell, they are paying to receive my call. That's double dipping. In Europe that doesn't happen, and yet the rates are still comparable to a single dip here. TTYL
Group Special Mobile - 03 Dec 2003 22:45 GMT >Consider this: if I call another cellular user here two people are paying, >I'm paying to call on my cell, they are paying to receive my call. That's >double dipping. In Europe that doesn't happen, and yet the rates are still >comparable to a single dip here. TTYL You must know a different Europe. Most Europeans pay for mobile calls a la carte and do not have big buckets of minutes as is often the case in North America. Europeans don't get free long distance, free nights or free weekends either. And if you call someone who's not on your network you can pay as much as .60 CDN per minute during peak calling. There's a good reason why people use SMS so much in Europe. It's freakin' expensive to use their phones. I don't have any problem about answering any calls. I've got a bucket of minutes and I don't gab so anyone who calls me I do my business and get off the phone. If I want to gab I'll wait til the weekend when I have unlimited minutes to call.
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repatch - 04 Dec 2003 00:24 GMT > >Consider this: if I call another cellular user here two people are paying, > >I'm paying to call on my cell, they are paying to receive my call. That's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > There's a good reason why people use SMS so much in Europe. It's > freakin' expensive to use their phones. I don't have any problem Austria. Their prices are comparable to here, for example: http://www.t-mobile.at/tarife_rechnung/tmobile_tarife/index.html
The HIGHEST cost is 0.30Euro per minute, and that's on the "worst" plan. And note, the whole coutry is one area code, no long distance charges as long as you're calling in country.
For calls to other parts of the world it's a little more expensive:
http://www.t-mobile.at/tarife_rechnung/tmobile_tarife/ausland/index.html
Here costs go up, but there is nothing stopping you from using calling cards or anything like that.
Remember too that in most of these rates you are paying both for your cell call AND for calling the other cell phone. Here you pay twice (the caller pays once, the receiver pays again), so although it might cost $0.20/minute to call someone the actual cost is $0.40/minute.
You are right that no minutes are usually included, but then there isn't a $6.95/month "system maintanance fee", and you only pay for what you use. You CAN pay a "per month" to get lower rates or other special things (cheaper rates when calling someone specific) but it's perfectly possible to pay nothing per month. This is good IMHO.
If you check some of their other rates you can really see how much better then have it. For example, standard data is always included, no monthly charges. GPRS is FAR more reasonable in price.
Sure, if you talk for 1000 minutes a month then you'll be paying way more, but people over there prefer talking face to face, reducing the "gab" factor.
Their prepaid IS more expensive:
http://www.t-mobile.at/tarife_rechnung/klax_tarife/index.html
but at least you have the option of GPRS and don't have to worry about air time expiring.
Oh well, TTYL
Group Special Mobile - 04 Dec 2003 15:03 GMT > Austria. Their prices are comparable to here, for example: >http://www.t-mobile.at/tarife_rechnung/tmobile_tarife/index.html > >The HIGHEST cost is 0.30Euro per minute, and that's on the "worst" plan. And >note, the whole coutry is one area code, no long distance charges as long as >you're calling in country. Don't base caller pays costs on Austria alone.
e.g. T-Mobile UK: £14.95 per month with 25 included minutes. Off network calls are 25p (CA$.56)/minute.
>Remember too that in most of these rates you are paying both for your cell >call AND for calling the other cell phone. Here you pay twice (the caller >pays once, the receiver pays again), so although it might cost $0.20/minute >to call someone the actual cost is $0.40/minute. But since I have a big bucket of minutes it's irrelevant to me that I'm paying for both incoming and outgoing calls.
>You are right that no minutes are usually included, but then there isn't a >$6.95/month "system maintanance fee", and you only pay for what you use. The $6.96 system fee is unique to Canada and someone at the CRTC must have been in the cell providers' pockets to allow such a thing. Don't feel though as if Canadians are the only ones who get dinged for charges that benefit the telcos. The US has the "Universal Service Fund" which the FCC has told the involved companies they can collect any way they see fit and determine the amount that they will give to the USF.
>You >CAN pay a "per month" to get lower rates or other special things (cheaper >rates when calling someone specific) but it's perfectly possible to pay >nothing per month. This is good IMHO. There are benefits to each way of billing for mobile telephone calls. I highly doubt whether either way of billing will likely change. Caller pays was attempted several years ago and it was a resounding failure in the US. Part of it is the mindset of callers. Most people who make "local" calls in North America expect that any call they make to a "local" number will be free and they can talk as long as they wish for the same amount of money. You'd be hard-pressed to convince the average caller that it's worth their while to call someone who's "local" and pay close to 60 cents/minute to call them when it cost a tenth of that to call someone in Europe or in the UK for less money. A lot of why we do things the way we do in North America is because of legacy issues. No one knows of "send-to-end" billing in Europe or "full increment billing" either. Legacy cellular charged that way so that's the way it's done now a days even though we now have sophisticated billing systems which can bill otherwise.
>If you check some of their other rates you can really see how much better >then have it. For example, standard data is always included, no monthly >charges. GPRS is FAR more reasonable in price. What are you referring to when you say "standard data?" CSD? CSD is free on carriers that have it.
>Their prepaid IS more expensive: Prepaid is always more expensive.
>http://www.t-mobile.at/tarife_rechnung/klax_tarife/index.html > >but at least you have the option of GPRS and don't have to worry about air >time expiring. Are you talking about GPRS with prepaid? I highly doubt that GPRS on prepaid in Europe won't expire.
Since the t-mobile.at site is in German I and most of the people here likely don't have a clue what the pages ultimately say.
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repatch - 04 Dec 2003 15:56 GMT > >Remember too that in most of these rates you are paying both for your cell > >call AND for calling the other cell phone. Here you pay twice (the caller [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But since I have a big bucket of minutes it's irrelevant to me that > I'm paying for both incoming and outgoing calls. Until your bucket runs out of course. And then there's the fact that most people never use their whole bucket, so minutes you are paying for go to waste every month.
> >You > >CAN pay a "per month" to get lower rates or other special things (cheaper [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > that's the way it's done now a days even though we now have > sophisticated billing systems which can bill otherwise. Exactly, hence my statements that we are WAY behind the Europeans when it comes to cellular.
> >If you check some of their other rates you can really see how much better > >then have it. For example, standard data is always included, no monthly > >charges. GPRS is FAR more reasonable in price. > > What are you referring to when you say "standard data?" CSD? CSD is > free on carriers that have it. Not with Fido it wasn't. I don't think it was with others either. I know with Fido you had to subscribe to their "Fido Data" plan to get any data access.
> >Their prepaid IS more expensive: > > Prepaid is always more expensive. I meant their prepaid is more expensive then our prepaid. But since they have a $0/month option of a "monthly" plan I don't really see this as ;bad.
> >http://www.t-mobile.at/tarife_rechnung/klax_tarife/index.html > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are you talking about GPRS with prepaid? I highly doubt that GPRS on > prepaid in Europe won't expire. It won't in Austria, airtime doesn't expire there on their prepaid service.
> Since the t-mobile.at site is in German I and most of the people here > likely don't have a clue what the pages ultimately say. Use an online translator, that's what I did. TTYL
Group Special Mobile - 05 Dec 2003 07:44 GMT > It won't in Austria, airtime doesn't expire there on their prepaid >service. I very seriously doubt that airtime *never* expires. It may expire in six months or a year, but it's not to any operator's benefit to have service running for someone *forever* without any compensation. I highly doubt that there's eternal service with any operator.
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repatch - 05 Dec 2003 15:14 GMT > > It won't in Austria, airtime doesn't expire there on their prepaid > >service. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > service running for someone *forever* without any compensation. I > highly doubt that there's eternal service with any operator. Doubt all you want. Everyone I asked looked at me weird when I asked, not quite understanding WHY it WOULD expire. They were all surprised that the airtime expires in other countries. I asked reps from three different networks.
And it's not a total loss, incoming calls don't use any airtime but the cell provider still makes money, so why not leave it eternal?
SB - 05 Dec 2003 05:20 GMT First, you all seem to be ignoring the main point of the message, which was the free SMS receipt. Fido actually used to have this and there would be no problem in implementing it again... and THAT would be something you could get some serious advertising and new customer growth out of (since no one else offers it).
Regarding the "ALSO" of caller pays, what's so tough to get? If you get a basic $10 card with Fido, you pay $.30/min. If you call your buddy's cell, he'll pay $.30/min as well (more or less, depending on who he's with and how many minutes he's bought). Either way, $.60 was paid. If I didn't want someone to call me (even say a wrong number), I still pay when the phone rings. The idea of not answering the phone unless you recognise the number is just stupid because often times people other than those whose numbers you've saved or memorised call you (work, customers, overseas relatives whose numbers don't show on the display). That's why the caller pays system is attractive. We're fortunate to have a competitive market where our rates aren't as high as in say Europe of Australia. Another thing that you guys are missing is the expiry period. My Vodafone account in Oz is still active. I loaded it once with $20 in the summer and it's good for 365days.
> >Consider this: if I call another cellular user here two people are paying, > >I'm paying to call on my cell, they are paying to receive my call. That's [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > To send an email reply send to > GSMthemobilestandard (@) yahoo.com Group Special Mobile - 05 Dec 2003 07:52 GMT >That's why the caller pays system >is attractive. We're fortunate to have a competitive market where our rates >aren't as high as in say Europe of Australia. Another thing that you guys >are missing is the expiry period. My Vodafone account in Oz is still >active. I loaded it once with $20 in the summer and it's good for 365days. That's fine and dandy. You can admire it all you like, but the fact is that North America will in most likelihood always be called party pays and most likely everywhere else will be caller pays. It's nice to debate the value of each system, but the reality is that the systems we have now are in all likelihood what we'll have. Even with plans for the new numbering system for the NANP there's no provision for caller pays mobile or at least as I've seen the plans for the expanded NANP.
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JF Mezei - 05 Dec 2003 09:23 GMT > is that North America will in most likelihood always be called party > pays and most likely everywhere else will be caller pays. Just a reminder that in North america, it is the caller that pays long distance. So the precedent exists for caller pays.
TYhe problem in north america is that the started handing off phone number in the same area codes as landline phones, so it becomes impossible for a caller to know if a call to a certain number would be "long distance" or not (eg: fees to reach a cellphone user).
Had they created area codes specific to cellphone users, then landline users would be aware that they have to pay to call them since it would be dialed as a long distance number.
SB - 05 Dec 2003 14:59 GMT > Just a reminder that in North america, it is the caller that pays long > distance. So the precedent exists for caller pays. Good point.
> Had they created area codes specific to cellphone users, then landline users > would be aware that they have to pay to call them since it would be dialed as > a long distance number. Unfortunately, even better point. I guess we're screwed with this system.
Group Special Mobile - 05 Dec 2003 15:49 GMT >TYhe problem in north america is that the started handing off phone number in >the same area codes as landline phones, so it becomes impossible for a caller [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >would be aware that they have to pay to call them since it would be dialed as >a long distance number. Which is one of the reasons why caller pays mobile which was tried many years ago was a miserable failure.
As I said earlier you can dream of a caller pays system for North America, but in all likelihood it's never going to happen.
If you're all that unhappy with the present state of mobile technology in North America you can always move to a country that works the way you like :)
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Super Dave - 04 Dec 2003 04:03 GMT Consider this: nobody is paying anything per call if they are on a postpaid plan and don't go over their included minutes. With the Fido plans that are available, for some people a landline is redundant thereby making wireless an even more cost effective solution.
> Consider this: if I call another cellular user here two people are paying, > I'm paying to call on my cell, they are paying to receive my call. That's > double dipping. In Europe that doesn't happen, and yet the rates are still > comparable to a single dip here. TTYL repatch - 04 Dec 2003 04:54 GMT Right, and what about when they DO go over? What about the $7/month charge for nothing? Personally I prefer the system where you pay for what you use, it just simplifies things so much. To each his/her own. TTYL
> Consider this: nobody is paying anything per call if they are on a postpaid > plan and don't go over their included minutes. With the Fido plans that are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > double dipping. In Europe that doesn't happen, and yet the rates are still > > comparable to a single dip here. TTYL JF Mezei - 04 Dec 2003 09:01 GMT > Right, and what about when they DO go over? What about the $7/month charge > for nothing? Look at it this way. Fido doesn't have a $20 plan for 200 minutes, it has a $27.00 plan for 200 minutes. It is unethical, just like Air Canada thatwas advertising an $89 far to New York from Montreal that turned out to be about $400 once you added all the charges and the fact that you needed to pay for the return portion.
>Personally I prefer the system where you pay for what you use, Fido has the $10 plan that works this way. However, if you exceed a certain number of minutes (I think 130 if I remember correctly), it becomes more cost effective to take the $27 plan up to a certain number of minutes above the 200, after which it is better to take another plan etc etc.
(It also depends on when and where you make calls).
The $10 plan is great if all you do is make analogue calls since analogue calls don't benefit from the monthly bank of minutes in the $27 or other packages.
It all comes back to something that is often stated here: analyse your usage and figure out which plan is best for you.
repatch - 04 Dec 2003 15:58 GMT > >Personally I prefer the system where you pay for what you use, > > Fido has the $10 plan that works this way. However, if you exceed a certain > number of minutes (I think 130 if I remember correctly), it becomes more cost > effective to take the $27 plan up to a certain number of minutes above the > 200, after which it is better to take another plan etc etc. No, it's not the same, since I'm paying $10/month for NOTHING. In Europe you can get monthly plans where you don't pay ANYTHING per month, you simply pay for what you use.
> (It also depends on when and where you make calls). > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It all comes back to something that is often stated here: analyse your usage > and figure out which plan is best for you. The plan that's best for me isn't available here. It shows how far behind we are when it comes to cellular. TTYL
Blandine Bigard - 04 Dec 2003 17:55 GMT > > >Personally I prefer the system where you pay for what you use, > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you can get monthly plans where you don't pay ANYTHING per month, you simply > pay for what you use. Maybe in some coutries but I never see that in france. They got plans in between prepaid an postpaid packages but no plan that coust you nothing per month. But you can use prepaid for that. You buy a card and after it expire you can still receive calls for 4,6,12 months depending of operators. Operatours still make money since caller pays. That's why call answer is free even on landline: it generate money since people leave message and pay for it. The system is totally different but at the end of the month it cost the about the same for the average user. If france it cost even more.
Just check the rates there (orange france, in french) http://www.orange.fr/0/visiteur/PV
The smallest package is 2h for 31,5 euros with 2 year contract 10h (600min) is 91,5 euros. no evening/WE free and you pay for gprs, sms and even to talk to customer care! I prefer Fido a lot
> > (It also depends on when and where you make calls). > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The plan that's best for me isn't available here. It shows how far > behind we are when it comes to cellular. TTYL Group Special Mobile - 05 Dec 2003 07:45 GMT > The plan that's best for me isn't available here. It shows how far >behind we are when it comes to cellular. TTYL Your solution is simple! Move to Austria!
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repatch - 05 Dec 2003 15:15 GMT > > The plan that's best for me isn't available here. It shows how far > >behind we are when it comes to cellular. TTYL > > Your solution is simple! Move to Austria! Right, so instead of trying to IMPROVE things here consumers should "give up" and move elsewhere? That's not how it works dude.
SB - 05 Dec 2003 14:55 GMT SuperDave is not so super at math. $20/200 plan (take the most basic as an example). Add $5 vmail/callid (included in prepaid), $7 access fee, $0.25 911 fee plus 15% tax on top of all of that. That $20 plan costs about 37.10. That's $.19/min. Hardly counts as "nobody is paying anything". If you and your buddy are on the same account, that's $.38/min. Better than $.60, but that's because our rates here are more competitive. I'd rather have the caller pay $.40 in this example (or $.60 if I was in Europe or Aus where the rates are higher), since I can control how much I spend because I can control the calls I chose to make. If it's not urgent or is just a quick message, I can log in to MSN or ICQ from any computer around and send them an SMS for free (and they'd receive it for free). It can be much more cost effective if you play it smart. I received many more call minutes (combined sending and receiving) in Australia for less than $20/month than I would have on the $37.10 plan described above... and my account is valid for a year, so if I chose not to make a call for a month or more (which is likely in this case, since I'm back in Canada), I save a lot.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Super Dave" <souperdave@canada.com> Newsgroups: alt.cellular.fido Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: Re: What will Fido do?
> Consider this: per call if they are on a postpaid > plan and don't go over their included minutes. With the Fido plans that are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > double dipping. In Europe that doesn't happen, and yet the rates are still > > comparable to a single dip here. TTYL Super Dave - 05 Dec 2003 20:09 GMT You're making way too many assumptions here. First of all postpaid plans are billed per second, so a 30 second call is not charged for the full minute like a prepaid call would be. Secondly the $0.25 911 fee is also charged on prepaid. Thirdly where I live the tax is only 7% not 15%.
> SuperDave is not so super at math. $20/200 plan (take the most basic as an > example). Add $5 vmail/callid (included in prepaid), $7 access fee, $0.25 > 911 fee plus 15% tax on top of all of that. That $20 plan costs about > 37.10. That's $.19/min. SB - 06 Dec 2003 01:45 GMT What does billing by the second or minute have to do with any of the assumptions I made? In the 'rest of the world' examples referred to where it's caller pays, prepaid is by the second as well. SuperDave is not so super at deductive reasoning either. I'd gladly pay the extra 8% not to live in Alberta (been there, for more than a few months unfortunately).
> You're making way too many assumptions here. First of all postpaid plans are > billed per second, so a 30 second call is not charged for the full minute [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > 911 fee plus 15% tax on top of all of that. That $20 plan costs about > > 37.10. That's $.19/min. Super Dave - 07 Dec 2003 05:16 GMT Obviously Sam, you remain the retard you always were before you were deported from Canada. PLONK
> What does billing by the second or minute have to do with any of the > assumptions I made? In the 'rest of the world' examples referred to where > it's caller pays, prepaid is by the second as well. SuperDave is not so > super at deductive reasoning either. I'd gladly pay the extra 8% not to > live in Alberta (been there, for more than a few months unfortunately). SB - 07 Dec 2003 16:28 GMT I guess this means I won the argument and this is your way of admitting it, but also displaying your bitterness and stupidity.
To summarise, the caller pays model is better since you don't have to worry about who you take calls from and the cost is the same, since the cost charged to each individual is borne entirely by the person initiating the call. As Mezei astutely pointed out, the fact that mobile numbers here have the same area codes as landline numbers (an error in implementation from the outset) has made it impossible to differentiate between the two when making a call and subsequently distinguishing how much you're going to be charged for the call. As such, it's too late to think about implementing an otherwise equitable system such as caller pays.
...not sure what that deporting stuff is about, but I'm in my last year of my grad degree in Economics in an Ontario university. Feel free to try to break into my hotmail and send nasty messages to ppl as you did last time...
> Obviously Sam, you remain the retard you always were before you were > deported from Canada. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > super at deductive reasoning either. I'd gladly pay the extra 8% not to > > live in Alberta (been there, for more than a few months unfortunately). jay - 01 Dec 2003 01:46 GMT > > Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals > > (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Just a couple of thoughts ....... Firstly, Fido's customer service is far from lacking whenc ompared to other carriers, they're very helpful and they have an excellent retention department.
They don't need to reduce the cost of SMS messages between Fido customers since it can be FREE if they subscribe to the F2F option, or the $25 plan. They also allow access to VM without charge.
Where are you coming up with these ideas?
JF Mezei - 01 Dec 2003 03:11 GMT > Firstly, Fido's customer service is far from lacking whenc ompared to > other carriers, they're very helpful and they have an excellent > retention department. Their hours of operation are certaintly lacking.
> They don't need to reduce the cost of SMS messages between Fido > customers since it can be FREE if they subscribe to the F2F option, or > the $25 plan. They also allow access to VM without charge. It used to cost $2.00 for free SMS and you didn,T get charged to received SMS from WEB or TAP. That is what they need to bring back.
repatch - 01 Dec 2003 04:59 GMT > > Firstly, Fido's customer service is far from lacking whenc ompared to > > other carriers, they're very helpful and they have an excellent [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It used to cost $2.00 for free SMS and you didn,T get charged to received SMS > from WEB or TAP. That is what they need to bring back. Agreed, the doubling dipping when sending an SMS to another subscriber is simply insane. It really shows how far ahead the Europeans are when it comes to cell phones. TTYL
Blandine Bigard - 01 Dec 2003 15:20 GMT > > Firstly, Fido's customer service is far from lacking whenc ompared to > > other carriers, they're very helpful and they have an excellent > > retention department. > > Their hours of operation are certaintly lacking. They are lot better than rogers. I got an account on rogers prepaid to use in the rare places where I go and Fido don't work and their interface and service is horrible. First when you want to refill your account you need to talk with a syntetic robot voice called Melanie (in french, don't know her name in english) half the time she don't understand anything and I don't have any exotic accent when I talk. You need to enter your phone number because their stupid system don't even had a call display. Is a long and painful process to refill with them. To talk with somebody the only way I found was to told "her" to got to hell 3 times after that she transfer me to customer service. This service is open 8 to 5 monday to friday! Compared to that crappy service Fido is first class!
> > They don't need to reduce the cost of SMS messages between Fido > > customers since it can be FREE if they subscribe to the F2F option, or > > the $25 plan. They also allow access to VM without charge. > > It used to cost $2.00 for free SMS and you didn,T get charged to received SMS > from WEB or TAP. That is what they need to bring back. Jimbo - 02 Dec 2003 00:24 GMT > > > Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals > > > (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Where are you coming up with these ideas? Hey, I was asked for my opinion and I offered it. Why attack me for that?
JF Mezei - 30 Nov 2003 22:33 GMT > Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals > (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones > to existing Fido users It would be interesting to hear about experiences of any Fido customer who called to cancel service and told Fido they accepted a Telus/AT&T/Bell offer. I suspect that Fido customer retention would get quite agressive to retain such customers.
What the Telus/AT&T/Bell offers will really do is weaken Fido to some extent because it will have to further increase the cost of retention of customers with free phones etc.
One also has to consider why a customer has chosen Fido. If they chose it solely based on advertising and because they like dogs, then yes, the customer can easily be lost if Telus/AT&T/Bell just dangle a dog biscuit to attract them.
But if a Fido customer chose Fido because of no contracts and lower prices, then such customers are more likely to realise that the dog biscuit Telus tries to lure him with is laced with a sleeping agent that will keep you asleep for 2 years.
However, for the masses, I unfortunatly suspect that what attracts one to a mobile provider or another is the phone.
Consider current Telus ads that show cool phones with colour, photos etc. A fido customer with an older phone, upon seing these ads might get a favourable impression of Telus, so when Telus then makes him an offer to switch, even if the phone doesn't have pictures/colour/etc, he may be tempted to jump ship.
This is why I am somewhat disapointed that Fido isn't flaunting camera phones to tell the world "look, I am cool too". ( The story of Fido: first with technology, last to admit it has it).
Personally, the current ads with the offer of free fido-fido for 2 months is a big TURN OFF for me. For one thing, I consider it misleading advertising since someone who gets that offer and starts calling me all the time will be costing ME airtime because I don't have Fido-to-Fido, and secondly, I do not like those "free for x months" offers.
I have a feeling that Fido switched from the dog theme to "regretably only from Fido" and they will try to find any "scam" that fits into that theme. Look at the "free day" scam. The ads clearly stated that the president was giving Fido customers one free day per week. How come, as a Fido subscriber, I didn't get that ?
If they really want the "regretably only from fido" to work, they should re-instate answer-to-end and apply it to all its customers, even prepaid. That would be a good christmas gift.
Remember that Fido has just emerged of bankrupcy. They've had a couple of years of "neglect" on their network due to lack of money, while AT?T and Bell continued to work on their network. Fido doesn't have unlimited resources, and they have to carefully decide how much of their limited resources are allocated to network improvements and how much to subsidies for phones and other freebes.
It costs Fido "monopoly" money to give 2 months of free fido-to-fido. It costs "real" money to subsidize a nokia/moto/ericcson phone. So it is a lot easier for Fido to advertise freebies that don't cost it anything, especially if the christmas customer doesn't stay with Fido. But will those ads really work ?
If Fido's restraint results in it starting to be seen as being behind others in terms of technology, it may cost it a lot of potential new customers who will chose the network that advertises the coolest phones on TV. And it may weaken existing customer's loyalty to Fido if Fido can't counter the lure of fancy handsets from other networks.
What Fido should do to counter the Telus/AT&T/Bell attempst at stealing its cutsomers is give all its cutsomers a little christmas cookie (such as answer-to-end). It wouldn't cost Fido a lot, would give it yet another "regretably only from Fido, and more importantly, might greatly reduce any thought of jumping ship by existing customers.
When a customer calls to cancel service, it is often too late even with gifts from retention department. It is best to kill the urge to move well before they take root.
Blandine Bigard - 01 Dec 2003 18:18 GMT > > Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals > > (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I suspect that Fido customer retention would get quite agressive to retain > such customers. The main reason they attack fido is because fido clients don't have contracts so the only way to stop that is to start the free phone with contract thing. They can give the choice to the customer free phone with contract or 100-200$ phone without one. Also when Fido give you a new phone you "sign" a contract of 18 months I think or you need to pay the full price of the phone
> What the Telus/AT&T/Bell offers will really do is weaken Fido to some extent > because it will have to further increase the cost of retention of customers [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > solely based on advertising and because they like dogs, then yes, the customer > can easily be lost if Telus/AT&T/Bell just dangle a dog biscuit to attract them. Yes and a lot of people don't want to lose their phone number. I got a freind who pay a fortune on rogers and don't want to leave because of that.
> But if a Fido customer chose Fido because of no contracts and lower prices, > then such customers are more likely to realise that the dog biscuit Telus [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > However, for the masses, I unfortunatly suspect that what attracts one to a > mobile provider or another is the phone. The choice of their freinds is important too. If a lot of your freinds got Telus and said it was good, maybe you will be tempted to change.
> Consider current Telus ads that show cool phones with colour, photos etc. A > fido customer with an older phone, upon seing these ads might get a favourable [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ME airtime because I don't have Fido-to-Fido, and secondly, I do not like > those "free for x months" offers. This is to increase usage and if a lot of your freinds got Fido it will be a better choice for you
> I have a feeling that Fido switched from the dog theme to "regretably only > from Fido" and they will try to find any "scam" that fits into that theme. > Look at the "free day" scam. The ads clearly stated that the president was > giving Fido customers one free day per week. How come, as a Fido subscriber, I > didn't get that ? You just need to change your plan to this one, that's all
> If they really want the "regretably only from fido" to work, they should > re-instate answer-to-end and apply it to all its customers, even prepaid. That > would be a good christmas gift. Come on, you are probably the only one to want that. Nobody know that and this is not a important thing in the choice of a provider. The per second billing is more appealing I think.
> Remember that Fido has just emerged of bankrupcy. They've had a couple of > years of "neglect" on their network due to lack of money, while AT?T and Bell [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for Fido to advertise freebies that don't cost it anything, especially if the > christmas customer doesn't stay with Fido. But will those ads really work ? A freind of mine want to switch to fido because of that so for some people, it works. Normaly these ad campaigns are based on the results of focus groups. They called me twice to ask me to participate at some group discussion on fido service. Unfortunatly I can't go because I was out of the country,but I was curious to know what they ask to customers in these surveys.
> If Fido's restraint results in it starting to be seen as being behind others > in terms of technology, it may cost it a lot of potential new customers who > will chose the network that advertises the coolest phones on TV. And it may > weaken existing customer's loyalty to Fido if Fido can't counter the lure of > fancy handsets from other networks. They can, they just need to offer panasonic or samsung phones. Rogers just begin to offer a samsung S307 at an outragous high price (350-550$ whitout accesories) You can get it unlocked for far less. Fido can do it too. This is good for the ads but the vast majority of customers got the cheap free phones, not the 500$ ones.
> What Fido should do to counter the Telus/AT&T/Bell attempst at stealing its > cutsomers is give all its cutsomers a little christmas cookie (such as > answer-to-end). It wouldn't cost Fido a lot, would give it yet another > "regretably only from Fido, and more importantly, might greatly reduce any > thought of jumping ship by existing customers. Pepole don't see the advantage of that. It's only a few seconds per call. They better include SMS or free voicemail. This will had more impact.
> When a customer calls to cancel service, it is often too late even with gifts > from retention department. It is best to kill the urge to move well before > they take root. repatch - 01 Dec 2003 19:21 GMT > > It would be interesting to hear about experiences of any Fido customer who > > called to cancel service and told Fido they accepted a Telus/AT&T/Bell [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you "sign" a contract of 18 months I think or you need to pay the full price > of the phone Umm, the MAIN reason many people are WITH Fido is that they don't HAVE contracts???
mistaroboto - 02 Dec 2003 03:45 GMT > Umm, the MAIN reason many people are WITH Fido is that they don't HAVE > contracts??? But, what if fido did have contracts? I wouldn't mind buying a $500 phone for $100 (along with billing by the second, etc..) if I had to sign a contract..
JF Mezei - 02 Dec 2003 04:47 GMT > But, what if fido did have contracts? I wouldn't mind buying a $500 phone > for $100 (along with billing by the second, etc..) if I had to sign a > contract.. It is fair to have a contract until the subsidy has been paid back. But at the end of that period, Fido should unlock the phone for free and no longer require contracts.
The problem with the old legacy carriers is that they don't use contracts to ensure customer pay the phone's subsidy, they use contracts to keep customer captive forever.
repatch - 02 Dec 2003 05:03 GMT > > Umm, the MAIN reason many people are WITH Fido is that they don't HAVE > > contracts??? > > But, what if fido did have contracts? I wouldn't mind buying a $500 phone > for $100 (along with billing by the second, etc..) if I had to sign a > contract.. Then they'd be the same as all the others. You don't HAVE to sign a contract with the others, you pretty much do if you want a good price on a phone. TTYL
Blandine Bigard - 02 Dec 2003 15:14 GMT > > > It would be interesting to hear about experiences of any Fido customer > who [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Umm, the MAIN reason many people are WITH Fido is that they don't HAVE > contracts??? For a part of them yes, but the price for that is higher prices for the phones. For others no, I don't mind get a contract from fido to get a Samsung for 100-200$. I just pay 500$ for one and I'm with fido since almost the begining. Also these no contracts customers are easier to steal by the others. That what I said in the other post. For the customer maybe is an advantage but not to fido.
None40 - 01 Dec 2003 19:44 GMT > Personally, the current ads with the offer of free fido-fido for 2 months is a > big TURN OFF for me. For one thing, I consider it misleading advertising since > someone who gets that offer and starts calling me all the time will be costing > ME airtime because I don't have Fido-to-Fido, and secondly, I do not like > those "free for x months" offers. Is this true?!! I saw those ads and thought it was a great deal-not so much now that you've explained it. Also your right it is rather misleading.
jay - 02 Dec 2003 21:47 GMT > > Personally, the current ads with the offer of free fido-fido for 2 months > is a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Is this true?!! I saw those ads and thought it was a great deal-not so much > now that you've explained it. Also your right it is rather misleading. I don't get how it is misleading?
Any new customer that activates on a monthly package gets 2 months of free fido to fido calling..they can call Fido customers free.
What is misleading about that?
JF Mezei - 02 Dec 2003 23:22 GMT > I don't get how it is misleading? > > Any new customer that activates on a monthly package gets 2 months of > free fido to fido calling..they can call Fido customers free. The impresison given is that if you get Fido-to-Fido, then all calls to another fido subscriber are free. That is not the case. They are free only for you, not to the other fido recipient (unless he also paid for the option).
And they don't say "if you subscribe now, you get 2 months of Fido to Fido" they say something like "from now on, Fido customers get 2 months of Fido to Fido for free".
There may be fine print at the bottom of screen indicating it applies only to new subscribers, but if you only listen to the spoken voice, it leads one to believe all customers get it. That was certaintly the case with the one-day-per-week-is-free promotion.
Jonathan Timar - 07 Dec 2003 09:24 GMT > > I don't get how it is misleading? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > another fido subscriber are free. That is not the case. They are free only for > you, not to the other fido recipient (unless he also paid for the option). Give me a break. How many people are worried about costing someone else money? As long as they know its free for them, they are happy.
jay - 07 Dec 2003 19:43 GMT > > > I don't get how it is misleading? > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Give me a break. How many people are worried about costing someone else > money? As long as they know its free for them, they are happy. You know what's funny?
"I just realized he said, "The impresison given is that if you get Fido-to-Fido, then all calls to another fido subscriber are free. That is not the case. They are free only for you...."
That is the case, the case is that if you get fido to fido..calls to other Fido subscribers are free.
You really have no case, this is not misleading at all. The commercial with the family talking, obviously means they all have Fido2Fido, stop twisting it around to make it sound as if they're misleading people. I don't know who coudl take it the wrong way, obviously if someone doens't have F2F, they won't be getting the call free..unless they have unlimited evenings and weekends or something.
The commercial, or the whole marketing is far from misleading.
SB - 07 Dec 2003 22:45 GMT I have to give Mezei this one. Not only is the advertising misleading, but it is so to the point that their resellers are confused. I asked a guy at the Telephone Booth about it and he said that the call is free for me and the person I'm calling, but only if you're in the same area code. It turns out that he was wrong on both points, the second being that the call is free for you even if you call the person long distance. You just pay the long distance charge, not airtime (but he still pays his airtime when you call him fido-to-fido).
I actually argued to get the fido-to-fido free on my student account only to find out that I actually can't call my friends on Fido for free (that is, they pay). If all the promo is is that you get to call other Fido subscribers from your Fido phone without additional airtime on your account, then $10 is too much to charge. I can pick up my landline or call from a payphone if I'm really worried about being charged on my end for the call, and $10 is a lot of quarters. If it was, as the impression is given, you and the person you're calling aren't charged for airtime, then that would be a great deal, and you'd have a lot of ppl rushing to add that option to their plan (for every two ppl to add that plan, it's like getting another subscriber on a basic monthly plan... they'd make a killing). As it stands now, I get free Fido-to-Fido (and all my local calls actually) after 7 anyhow. Why would I pay $10 for that? I'd call to cancel fido-to-fido if I was paying for it (but I'm not, so I won't).
> > > > I don't get how it is misleading? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > The commercial, or the whole marketing is far from misleading. Lee - 09 Dec 2003 00:53 GMT > I have to give Mezei this one. Not only is the advertising misleading, but > it is so to the point that their resellers are confused. I asked a guy at [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > > > The commercial, or the whole marketing is far from misleading. Yes, the ads are a bit misleading,but the whole idea is to get as many people to sign up as possible. The $10 you pay for this option is so that YOU don't pay for the Fido to Fido call. Why are you worried about what they are paying. If they are concerned about that then they can cut the conversation short or they can get the Fido to Fido option. They already know how much they are paying for an incomming call no mater where it is coming from if they don't have that option. It's very similar to Fidos text messaging, if you send a message it is going to cost the other Fido user 10 cents (or one message deducted from their package). It's not the best way to do things as most other operators don't charge for incomming messages, but you still send them. L.
JF Mezei - 09 Dec 2003 10:14 GMT > people to sign up as possible. The $10 you pay for this option is so > that YOU don't pay for the Fido to Fido call. Why are you worried > about what they are paying. If they are concerned about that then they > can cut the conversation short or they can get the Fido to Fido > option. Hi it's Jim, how's it going ?
Hey, it is going great, but can't talk to you for long, I've exceeded my minutes already for this month.
Hey, don't worry, I've got the Fido-to-Fido option for free, it won't cost anything because this is a Fido-to-Fido call.
The Fido operator isn't going to barge in to tell the called party that they will be billed for the call, contrary to what the caller said.
When you see the whole family wasting time on the phone, you get the impression that everyone you talk to benefits from you having fido-to-fido. Now, they could have made this more obvious if the father of the family said out loud " hey we have our daughter to thank for convincing us all to get Fido-to-Fido.
Also, that ad is an almost direct ripoff of the nextel ads in the USA, except the nextel ones are better.
jay - 04 Dec 2003 07:36 GMT > > Personally, the current ads with the offer of free fido-fido for 2 months > is a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Is this true?!! I saw those ads and thought it was a great deal-not so much > now that you've explained it. Also your right it is rather misleading. I really don't get it.
It says on any new activation, you get 2 months of free fido to fido calling.
You- person using phone to make a call..
You do get the free fido to fido calling..how is it misleading?
In no way does it give the inpression that the other person on the other line gets the call free too, if they don't have F2F.
YOU get it..you can call any Fido user for free.
*sigh*
JF Mezei - 04 Dec 2003 09:09 GMT > It says on any new activation, you get 2 months of free fido to fido > calling. Yes, the current adds with the 2 montsh free promotion do mention at the end, only for new activations. But the previous batch, which addmounced Fido-to-Fido, said something like "From now on, fido customers get unlimited Fido-to-Fido calls". (that was the batch of ads that included a picture of all the guys friends in the shower with him).
However, when you look at the current batch of ads, where you see the whole family exchanging jokes over dinner table via their phones, it gives the impression that if you get the free Fido-to_Fido, all of your family will benefit.
The ads may not be illegal, but they are borderline misleading.
> You- person using phone to make a call.. I'll have to carefully listen to the ads again. But do you see a difference between:
"When you subscribe to Fido-to-Fido, calls to another fido subscriber are free" and "When you subscribe to Fido-to-Fido, you will not be billed for airtime for calls to another Fido phone"
???
The first one leaves the door wide open for interpretation that the call will be free at both ends if either of the persons have subscribed to Fido-to-Fido. The second one makes it very clear that it is only you who benefits from it.
Just a Guy You Know - 03 Dec 2003 13:20 GMT >Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals >(Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >tidal waves? Not only to be able to stand up against the bigger competitors >but beat them hands down. Introduce Cityfido in Ontario.
N.
Scorpion - 03 Dec 2003 22:29 GMT They will do nothing, this is from the email I got from fido:
"Regarding the marketing strategy described in your e-mail, rest assured that it will never be Fido's one. Here at Fido we are cool, honest and simple! We do not try to lure you with free handsets. Indeed, if a service provider gives you a handset, it clearly knows that it will get back its money with the usage fees. However, here at Fido, we do not do business this way. We offer our customers the best rates on the market that allow you to save on a daily basis!"
> Fido is currently facing attacks, or stab in the back, from all rivals > (Bell, Telus and Rogers) to offer claimed equivalent deals with new phones [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://www.ihaterogers.ca If you hate Rogers, come visit here to see > other alternatives.
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