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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Fido / March 2004

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Rogers (semi-OT)

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alien - 06 Mar 2004 22:24 GMT
I really liked the Rogers prepaid evenings & weekends 5 cents
plan with a $25, 60-day expiry refill cards. Compared to fido,
that was a really good deal, for me at least. However I checked
on their website and saw that they are going to phase out those
refill cards and replace them with 30-day expiry only cards.
Now, isn't that wonderful? ;) But the website isn't very clear
about that, so I went to a couple of rogers stores to ask about
the details. Many customer reps had no clue what I was talking
about. Anyway, it turns out that after the change the minimum
refill amount you need to pay to use your evenings&weekends
plan is going to be the $30 dollar amount and it will expire
after 30 days. The customer rep even tried to convince me
that it was "better" this way, because it "simplifies" your
account managment, and that the 25 dollar cards were expiring
after 30 days anyways. Well, so at this point I see Rogers
losing its only advantage over Fido (I don't care about
coverage, I never go out of the city anyway). It's interesting
that when I first bought my phone I chose Fido because Rogers
wasn't offering prepaid service on GSM. Now, I was ready
to buy Rogers sim card, but I didn't because they are
phasing out the only good deal they had (no surprise there).
It's not fido that is superior, its the competition that is
absolutely crap.
Steven Fisher - 06 Mar 2004 23:49 GMT
> It's not fido that is superior, its the competition that is
> absolutely crap.

I would change this statement to "It's not thast fido is good..."

Because Fido is superior to crap. :) But you're right, it isn't exactly
good either.

For what it's worth, when I moved from Rogers to Fido, most people
thought I'd bought a new phone the sound was so much better.
Blandine Bigard - 08 Mar 2004 15:12 GMT
> > It's not fido that is superior, its the competition that is
> > absolutely crap.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> For what it's worth, when I moved from Rogers to Fido, most people
> thought I'd bought a new phone the sound was so much better.

Probably because you where on the old TDMA system.  Now Rogers is GSM, same
technology than Fido and often same phones, so the sound will be the same.
dafond - 08 Mar 2004 21:22 GMT
Not anymore.  Rogers is using 1900mhz and 850mhz band with power class 4
(more power to transmit).

Fido has only 1900mhz band.

Rogers has reuse their old analog network and convert it on GSM numeric.  It
offers better coverage outside urban center and better in-building coverage
than 1900mhz.

> > > It's not fido that is superior, its the competition that is
> > > absolutely crap.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Probably because you where on the old TDMA system.  Now Rogers is GSM, same
> technology than Fido and often same phones, so the sound will be the same.
Edward S - 11 Mar 2004 23:40 GMT
> ..
> Probably because you where on the old TDMA system.  Now Rogers is GSM, same
> technology than Fido and often same phones, so the sound will be the same.

They definitely don't sound the same.  I use the same 1900 phones on
both Rogers and Fido.  Rogers sucks big time.  It's like Fido using
the "full rate" voice coder while Rogers is half-rate.
repatch - 12 Mar 2004 00:30 GMT
> > > It's not fido that is superior, its the competition that is
> > > absolutely crap.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Probably because you where on the old TDMA system.  Now Rogers is GSM, same
> technology than Fido and often same phones, so the sound will be the same.

   No. Just because they use the same air interface does it mean they will
sound the same. I've used the exact same phone on Rogers and on Fido and I
can assure you that Rogers does NOT sound as good. It all depends on how the
codecs are tuned, Fido has been known for a long time as ranking as the best
in sound quality. Now, Rogers on GSM DOES sound much better then TDMA, and
it absolutely blasts Telus' CDMA. TTYL
Steven Fisher - 12 Mar 2004 01:32 GMT
> Probably because you where on the old TDMA system.  Now Rogers is GSM, same
> technology than Fido and often same phones, so the sound will be the same.

No, I was on GSM. This was less than a year ago.
alien - 12 Mar 2004 05:56 GMT
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:49:24 GMT, Steven Fisher says...

> > It's not fido that is superior, its the competition that is
> > absolutely crap.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Because Fido is superior to crap. :) But you're right, it isn't exactly
> good either.

Agreed, that's what I should have written. But it is sad
that companies are not really trying to compete by offering
better rates instead of trying to steal customers from
each other. I find those Telus ads really annoying. However
it is also interesting they aren't targetting Rogers' customers.
Blandine Bigard - 12 Mar 2004 14:28 GMT
> On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:49:24 GMT, Steven Fisher says...
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> each other. I find those Telus ads really annoying. However
> it is also interesting they aren't targetting Rogers' customers.

Two reasons for that.  First they hate Fido because of Cityfido in
Vancouver, their main landlaine cash cow.  And second Rogers and Bell
customers are stuck with contracts and harder to switch.  This is probably
why Fido finally decide to go with contracts.
JF Mezei - 12 Mar 2004 19:26 GMT
> Two reasons for that.  First they hate Fido because of Cityfido in
> Vancouver, their main landlaine cash cow.  And second Rogers and Bell
> customers are stuck with contracts and harder to switch.  This is probably
> why Fido finally decide to go with contracts.

Telus is in no position to compete against AT&T or Bell because it doesn't
have a bigger network.

There are limits to how much Bell can compete against Telus (and vice versa)
because they rely on each other's networks (for now) for coverage outside
their original territory.

As far as contracts go, Fido used to have the highest brand loyalty, up until
the time they started to ruin the company (ruined web site, ruined SMS, ruined
email, send-to-end, etc). Now, Fido, instead of being a leader, it is a
follower, trying to "catch" up to all the bad business practices used by the
big guys.

Contracts don't make it harder to steal customers, it makes it different.
Every month, you have a whole group of customers whose contract expires. What
is needed is constant advertising to make people curious about your offering
so that they take a look at it before their contract expires and then choose
you, instead of renew.

Also, stealing customers, until number portability arrives, is becoming harder
due to more and more people relying on their mobile phone number being known.

If you love somebody, set them free. People don't like being tied down. Fido
got me exactly because it had no contracts, and it got me when Cantel which
had just switched to the AT&T monicker, wanted me to sign another 3 year
contract. 30 minutes for $30 versus Fido's then 100 minutes for $20 and billed
by the second to boot.

Back then, Fido used to pride itself with simple packages. But now, it has
gotten just as bad with so many packages it is hard to keep track.

The big problem is the pressure to offer free phones which drives monthly
rates up.
AndrewH - 13 Mar 2004 05:58 GMT
> As far as contracts go, Fido used to have the highest brand loyalty, up until
> the time they started to ruin the company (ruined web site, ruined SMS, ruined
> email, send-to-end, etc). Now, Fido, instead of being a leader, it is a
> follower, trying to "catch" up to all the bad business practices used by the
> big guys.

I have to disagree, I don't think the majority of the public really
knows or understands the different, but they do know the brand 'Fido'.
People on this newsgroup are unusually educated about the details of the
 different companies. I still think that Fido's brand loyalty is
immense. Look at Rogers, still can't decide what its name is. Telus'
name is only 2 years old for most of the country, and was AGT until not
that many years ago. Bell is the only one here that has kept its name
for more than a few years.

> Back then, Fido used to pride itself with simple packages. But now, it has
> gotten just as bad with so many packages it is hard to keep track.

Unfortunately, the majority of the public did not see this advantage. As
a user I am disappointed, as a shareholder, I agree with their decision

> The big problem is the pressure to offer free phones which drives monthly
> rates up.

Agreed

Andrew
JF Mezei - 13 Mar 2004 10:03 GMT
> I have to disagree, I don't think the majority of the public really
> knows or understands the different, but they do know the brand 'Fido'.

When Fido started in Montreal, I remember them making a lot of noise about
having chosen GSM so that they could be the first with all the new features
because GSM was much more developped than other protocols. Well, Fido may have
been first to have features implemented, but it has been the last to admit to
having them.

Also, Microcell was to have a division designed to help fund development of
GSM applications to give its network an edge.

CSD DATA is the worse mistake: Fido CSRs were instructed to lie to customers
and tell them Fido didn't have it, even though it had it from the start. One
needed to mention that magic keyword  "Nokia 9000", after which the CSRs were
allowed to admit to having DATA. (heck, initially, Microcell even acted as an
ISP for those phones, which was an advantage since its backpbone was connected directly).

And when my cousin told me last fall that her son chose a AT&T (now Rogers)
phone because Fido didn't have camera phones, I saw that the trend was
continuing. Fido has those phones, but people don't really know about it.

Fido was years ahead of the others. It could have made quite an impression,
especially since TDMA and CDMA were still a long way from fully functional SMS
and CSD Data. And had Rogers not annouced it was getting GPRS ASAP, I suspect
that Fido would have kept GPRS under wraps for quite some time. (And I suspect
that MMS has been available on Microcell for some time too, but Fido is
probably waiting to see how others price theirs before they admit to having
the service).

FIDO had great SMS services offred by 3rd parties, but when Fido finally
decided to do something with its SMS, it killed the pricing scheme that would
have made SMS really work, and it also killed the information providers to
give its own Microcell I5 (Ifido) a chance. It flopped and now there is
nothing left now.

Martin Renter's gateway provided better email gateway service that what Fido
offered (and what Fido still offers), and that was despite Microcell putting
sticks into Mr Renter's wheels instead of helping him and making him part of
"the team" because he was a great asset to Microcell that costed next to nothing.

And when they got their first SMS applications for banking, it turned out to
be more expensive to do it with SMS than to use up air time to dial the bank's
800 numbers to perform the same transaction over conventional telephone banking.

There is quite a long list of "assets" which Microsel sqandered. And Fido's
actions went against their original intentions of fostering 3rd party
providers.

WAP seems destined the same way, with Fido refusing to provide support to 3rd
party developpers. It seems to want WAP to be used as a conduit to sell
ringtones and games, instead of allowing 3rd party to develop contents which
will end up generating a lot of traffic.

Remember that when Fido started it failed IFido SMS service, it blocked
"binary" SMS messages coming from outside its network to prevent customers
from getting ringtones from other providers, in order to give its IFIDO a monopoly.

Microcell shoudln't be a content provider, it should be a content transporter.
It should foster 3rd partty content providers and push users to make the most
use of it.

By having the same mentality as it did with SMS, wanting to be the sole
provider of information, it will not help that product take off like it could.

The problem is that with banks on their tail, FIDO doesn't have much freedom
to use the "if you build it they will come" philosophy. They can't tell the
banks that they need to wait a few years before seing real revenus come out of
wap/gprs. The problem is that by stifling usage at the start, it will never
gain the popularity that it could achieve.

Now, if Rogers supports developpers, the later will develop based on the
documentation provided by Rogers. Since Fido refuses to provide documentation
on how its gateway is implemented, developpers will be forced to ignore Fido
and their contenst may not work on all Fido phones because the gateway will
refuse it. Or developpers may develop identification schemes that rely on the
network providing a subscriber identification string in HTTP headers, and
since Fido doesn't provide this (or omits this), then such sites won't work on
the fido site.

So Fido customers will be stuck with the limited selection of sites that have
probably paid Microcell to appear on their WAP home page, while Rogers will
have a much greater inventory of WAp sites that work well on its network and
generate much traffic.

So far, Fido had waited for all the others to offer a feature before admitting
it also had that feature. It was easy since  TDMA/CDMA networks were late in
getting the technoloogy. But now that Rogers is also on GSM, Microcell has
lost its edge and will no longer start a year or two ahead of its competitors.
This could mean that without 1-2 years of testing/debugging that Microcell had
the luxury of having before, now, they'll be scrambling to keep up with
Rogers. Will they be able to maintain the generally superior quality that
Microcell had over Rogers ? Or will the much shorter timeframes require a
sacrifice of quality before the product is rolled out to the public ?

MMS will be the next thing to check for.

***IF*** Rogers and/or Bell/Telus decide to go 3G, it will be the end of Fido
as a "leader" and their only way to survive will be to offer the older
services at much reduced prices. Fido just doesn't have the financial strength
to widthstand a migration to 3G.

Thankfully, 3G isn't coming to Canada for at least a couple of years, unless
Ricky Branson uses pocket change to setup a 3G system in Canada.

>   different companies. I still think that Fido's brand loyalty is
> immense. Look at Rogers, still can't decide what its name is.

Yes, the name "Fido" is well known. But I think that they are now riding on
their initial ad blitzes from 5-7 years ago that were extremely succesful in
establishing the brand. Their ads now loack the imagination, impact that their
initial ones had. Remember the airship ?

however, Basy Street Analysts keep on picking on the fact that Fido has a
higher churn rtate. Before 2001 when they screwed up web/sms/mail, (or was it
2002 ?), Fido prided itself on having the lowest churn rate. And as Fido's
advantages eroded, the churn rate went up.

Also, the whole concept of "customer retention department" is flawed. They
should abandon that department immediatly. The regular 4 legged furry CSRs
shoudld be the "customer satisfaction department" to make sure that no
customer gets unhappy enough to need to be shunted to a "retention department".

Back when Fido started, except for the lying about DATA, the 4 legged furry
CSRs were excellent. Then, after Fido started to grow, I think that they
outsourced the customer support and it went downhill from there. the CSRs
weren't trained as well.

Right now, if the normal CSRs are not allowed to deal with a case, the
customer will just shop around and his decision has already been made to
leave. When he calls to cancel, there is not much that can be done to retain
him (especially if he has already signed a contract with another carrier).

> Telus'
> name is only 2 years old for most of the country, and was AGT until not
> that many years ago.

I think you'll find that people in BC would probably state that Telus was BC
Tel not that many years ago. BC Tel was bigger than AGT. And I think that most
of Telus' operations and employees are former BC Tel. (even though the head
office is legally in Alberta).

> Bell is the only one here that has kept its name
> for more than a few years.

But Bell is a very new name to people outside of Ontario/Québec. And you'll
find that Bell subsidiaries in other provinces, while sharing the "Mobility"
trademark, will affix their own name to it. So it isn't quite the "one"
national network yet.

> Unfortunately, the majority of the public did not see this advantage. As
> a user I am disappointed, as a shareholder, I agree with their decision

The problem is that when you are the smaller guy, with a smaller network, you
need to stand out with better features, better service and lower prices and
better business practices. All thinsg being equal, a customer will not choose
Fido over Rogers since Rogers has much better network footprint.

Contracts are anothert nail in the coffin for Fido because it removes one of
the major differentiators that gave Fido a distinct advantage.

In the end, if the Banks force Fido to emulate its competitors, why will
people choose Fido ?

When Fido started, it was the underdog (no pun intended). It was the bright
new kid on the block with revolutionary pricing, advertising and business
practices. And no matter what happens next, one has to give a big  milk bone
to the dog for having done that.

But now, instead of continuing the revolution, they are trying to imitate the
bad guys. And you don't see a smaller guy in a large crowd.

We used to think that per-second and no-contracts were sacred since Fido used
them for advertising. Now, per-second is gone for prepaid,  no-contracts is
gone too. In their goal to emulate the bad guys, will Fido kill per-second
billing for all packages too ? Will they do it like when they changed to
send-to-end and not tell anyone ?
mistaroboto - 13 Mar 2004 17:58 GMT
tooo much time on your hands.. my goodness, JF, get a life.

> > I have to disagree, I don't think the majority of the public really
> > knows or understands the different, but they do know the brand 'Fido'.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> billing for all packages too ? Will they do it like when they changed to
> send-to-end and not tell anyone ?

One quick question though.. iFido, City Fido, Fido2Fido, these are not good
things?

Last comment, about Microcell talking to GPRS publicly, check your history..
http://www.microcell.ca/en/04/index.asp?id=04&sid=01&y=all
talking about is back in 2000.

The fact is JF, this is the real world, sometimes things have to change and
sometimes your decisions are based on various factors (customer demand,
competitive marketplace, MONEY).
repatch - 13 Mar 2004 18:32 GMT
Too much time perhaps, but I don't see much wrong with anything he said. In
most points he's absolutely on the money. TTYL

> tooo much time on your hands.. my goodness, JF, get a life.
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> sometimes your decisions are based on various factors (customer demand,
> competitive marketplace, MONEY).
AndrewH - 13 Mar 2004 18:43 GMT
Good points, I agree with most of them. BTW I am from BC and can comment
on Telus. Much of Telus services are now run from Alberta, from the
perspective of the user, not BC. Telus' service is apalling, and
continues to be apalling despite now meeting what the CRTC says is
acceptable, or nearly acceptable.

>>I have to disagree, I don't think the majority of the public really
>>knows or understands the different, but they do know the brand 'Fido'.
[quoted text clipped - 173 lines]
> billing for all packages too ? Will they do it like when they changed to
> send-to-end and not tell anyone ?
alien - 14 Mar 2004 06:48 GMT
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:03:08 -0500, JF Mezei says...

> And when they got their first SMS applications for banking, it turned out to
> be more expensive to do it with SMS than to use up air time to dial the bank's
> 800 numbers to perform the same transaction over conventional telephone banking.

Agreed, it is totally unacceptable having to pay for incoming SMS.

> The problem is that when you are the smaller guy, with a smaller network, you
> need to stand out with better features, better service and lower prices and
> better business practices. All thinsg being equal, a customer will not choose
> Fido over Rogers since Rogers has much better network footprint.

But Rogers is much more expensive.
Mind you, fido is getting there too. ;) But for the moment they still
have some advantage. I don't think it is a bad thing to have many
packages available, it makes a better choice for the customer. But they
certanly lack in terms of prepaid options. I reckon they should focus
much more on those. I mean, it is pointless having refill amounts that
expire within 30 days... It should be at least 6 months to one year.
Basically, they should introduce larger refill amounts, i.e. $100
that would last for 6-7 months, or $150 or more for 1 year, allowing
you to choose your plan the way it suits you better, charging you a
standard fee should you choose to change your plan. They should also
introduce more prepaid options and plans. I, for one, will never switch
to a monthly plan, as my phone usage varies every month, and I do not
want to pay what I do not use. The saddest thing is that fido's
prepaid plan is still superior, at least compared to the joke Rogers
is introducing with all of their prepaid cards expiring within 30 days.
Of course they should also sell unlocked phones. I would prefer buying
an unlocked phone and paying the full price than saving $50-$100.

> Contracts are anothert nail in the coffin for Fido because it removes one of
> the major differentiators that gave Fido a distinct advantage.

Agreed. Makes no sense to me...
repatch - 14 Mar 2004 17:24 GMT
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:03:08 -0500, JF Mezei says...
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> But Rogers is much more expensive.

   Depends on the user. For me (prepaid) Rogers is FAR cheaper for two
major reasons: 1 they offer a weekends and evenings package for a far
smaller monthly amount, 2. their incoming SMS (both from handsets and from
the internet as email) are COMPLETELY free. That alone, plus the vastly
superior coverage int he areas I frequent makes them far cheaper then Fido.
alien - 14 Mar 2004 21:12 GMT
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:24:00 -0500, repatch says...

> > But Rogers is much more expensive.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the internet as email) are COMPLETELY free. That alone, plus the vastly
> superior coverage int he areas I frequent makes them far cheaper then Fido.

Wrong. :) I started this thread because of that. I wanted to buy
Rogers sim card and use it with their prepaid service, because of their
evenings and weekends plan. But since they will be phasing out the $25
refill amounts, and replacing them with $30, 30-day expiry ones
(as a minimum to be able to use evenings & weekends plan), fido will be
cheaper.
repatch - 15 Mar 2004 01:55 GMT
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:24:00 -0500, repatch says...
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> (as a minimum to be able to use evenings & weekends plan), fido will be
> cheaper.

   Umm, NOT wrong:

First there is no official word that this will be done, until it is done it
is foolish to compare something that is with something that isn't.

Second, even if it IS done, Rogers will then be the same price as Fido
(since you can only use a $20/20day card or $40/40day card with Fido the
cost per day is the same, until you factor in Fido is 1 cent more off peak,
while Rogers gives you 1 hour less, so in the end the cost is the same).

Third, that is only that one single aspect of the costs, incoming text
messages are COMPLETELY free with Rogers, you pay $0.10 for each and every
incoming message with Fido. While Rogers is more expensive outgoing the
incoming for free EASILY overcomes this.

Fourth, if you venture ANYWHERE out of an urban area forget Fido. Heck, Fido
doesn't even work in the building I work in, which is the 404 and 407 area
of Markham, that's just sad.

In the end the only real stigma left against Rogers prepaid is you pay for
voice messages left, but for me that's a non issue since all my incoming
calls occur off peak.
Cellular Unlocker - 15 Mar 2004 06:34 GMT
It is official.  As of March 29th, all Rogers prepaid cards will have a
validity of 30 days.  Cons of Rogers: Double-billing on voicemail (minutes
are deducted for receiving a voice message, and minutes are deducted for
retrieving a voice message) is a _huge_ deal, especially if your have
friends who leave long messages for no reason.  And try sending a message
overseas with Rogers.  It only works in select countries, and it costs .20$
per message sent. For that price, Fido gives you sent and received text
messages overseas.  Oh, and I don't know about Markham, but Fido coverage
kills Rogers coverage in the Greater Montreal Area.  I don't get any
"network busy's" at peak hours on my Fido, either.  8pm nights with Rogers.
That's a whole extra hour of .39$/min rate!  Maybe not a big deal for you,
but a huge deal for others.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

CU

> > On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:24:00 -0500, repatch says...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> voice messages left, but for me that's a non issue since all my incoming
> calls occur off peak.
Steve Punter - 15 Mar 2004 17:19 GMT
This argument is rather silly, since the price difference between Rogers and Fido prepaid
services are similar yet DIFFERENT ENOUGH that it makes direct comparisons impossible.
Because of the slight differences Fido can work out cheaper for SOME PEOPLE, while Rogers
can work out cheaper for others.

As with all such variables, including coverage quality in a given location, it all comes
down to personal usage. Only YOU can decide if Fido or Rogers is cheaper for your usage
pattern, and only YOU can decide if Fido or Rogers has better coverage in the specific
places that you need them.

For example, Rogers free incoming text messaging is a BIG deal to someone who receives lot
of SMS, but of no consequence at all to someone who does not. Fido's lack of coverage in
Timbuktu is of great concern to users who are frequently in Timbuktu, but of no
consequence to those who never venture out of Fido's coverage area. Fido's free voicemail
deposits are of great value to those who receive many long voicemail messages, but
inconsequential to those who rarely get voicemail messages at all. Fido offers far cheaper
airtime for those who need anytime minutes, but (after the Rogers 30-day card limit takes
effect) offer no per-minute cost advantage for heavy weekend and weeknight users.

Or in the end, you could do what I do. I have both. I primarily use Fido prepaid because
I'm an anytime minute type, and 15 cents per minute handily beats 33 cents per minute.
However, I also like to receive lots of SMS that I send from my own software, and so I
have a Rogers phone to which they are sent. I top up my Rogers account with $10 each month
to keep it active, but that quickly builds up a fairly hefty balance which I can use on
the odd occasions I find myself outside of Fido's coverage area. All of my phones are
unlocked, so I can put either SIM in any of them. This definitely won't work for everyone,
but it represents yet another way to look at it.
Signature

Steve Punter
http://www.arcx.com/sites

repatch - 15 Mar 2004 17:38 GMT
> It is official.  As of March 29th, all Rogers prepaid cards will have a
> validity of 30 days.

   Where? I have see no official word. Again, even if it's true it just
puts Rogers at the same price as Fido.

> Cons of Rogers: Double-billing on voicemail (minutes
> are deducted for receiving a voice message, and minutes are deducted for
> retrieving a voice message) is a _huge_ deal, especially if your have
> friends who leave long messages for no reason.

   Call the VM server directly from a land line of payphone, doesn't cost
you a cent of airtime. I always did this with Fido, and I continue to do
this with rogers, on peak, off peak it's so cheap it doesn't matter.

> And try sending a message
> overseas with Rogers.  It only works in select countries, and it costs .20$
> per message sent. For that price, Fido gives you sent and received text
> messages overseas.

   I don't know where you get the $0.20/message from, I send all the time
overseas and it's always been $0.15/message. Reception of course is free.

> Oh, and I don't know about Markham, but Fido coverage
> kills Rogers coverage in the Greater Montreal Area.

   If your phone doesn't have 850 coverage that doesn't surprise me. Here
in Toronto Roger's 1900 coverage is equal to Fido, in all areas I've tried,
except for some more important ones to me where there is ZERO Fido coverage,
yet full Rogers.

> I don't get any
> "network busy's" at peak hours on my Fido, either.

   I don't get that on Rogers, granted only time I got that on Fido was new
years eve at about 11:59...

> 8pm nights with Rogers.
> That's a whole extra hour of .39$/min rate!  Maybe not a big deal for you,
> but a huge deal for others.

   Perhaps, for me it's a non issue since most of my airtime used is on the
weekend. TTYL

> Just my thoughts on the matter.
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> > voice messages left, but for me that's a non issue since all my incoming
> > calls occur off peak.
Steven Fisher - 16 Mar 2004 02:56 GMT
>     I don't know where you get the $0.20/message from, I send all the time
> overseas and it's always been $0.15/message. Reception of course is free.

I've heard $0.20 as well, but I can only find $0.15.

But what's this about being charged for incoming SMS on Fido? I've never
been charged for incoming SMS.
repatch - 16 Mar 2004 04:15 GMT
> >     I don't know where you get the $0.20/message from, I send all the time
> > overseas and it's always been $0.15/message. Reception of course is free.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But what's this about being charged for incoming SMS on Fido? I've never
> been charged for incoming SMS.

   Unless you subscribe to some sort of SMS plan you most certainly pay for
incoming text messages with Fido. It's been like that for years now.
Steven Fisher - 16 Mar 2004 07:47 GMT
>     Unless you subscribe to some sort of SMS plan you most certainly pay for
> incoming text messages with Fido. It's been like that for years now.

Hmm. <shrug> Even when I didn't subscribe to an SMS plan, I was never
charged for incoming SMS. Perhaps it was some special offer.
Ototin - 16 Mar 2004 10:01 GMT
>> >     I don't know where you get the $0.20/message from, I send all the
>time
>> > overseas and it's always been $0.15/message. Reception of course is
>free.

>> I've heard $0.20 as well, but I can only find $0.15.

>> But what's this about being charged for incoming SMS on Fido? I've never
>> been charged for incoming SMS.

>    Unless you subscribe to some sort of SMS plan you most certainly pay for
>incoming text messages with Fido. It's been like that for years now.

Fido started charging received SMS with the launch of inter-carrier
SMS. There was a separate company which made it possible to send a SMS
between the cellular service providers (Fido, Bell, Telus, Rogers).
JF Mezei - 16 Mar 2004 11:34 GMT
> Fido started charging received SMS with the launch of inter-carrier
> SMS. There was a separate company which made it possible to send a SMS
> between the cellular service providers (Fido, Bell, Telus, Rogers).

Nop. Fido started to charge for SMS when it launched its .com bomb "iFido"
from its subsidiary Microcell I5, quite some time ago.

At the time, packages such as the unlimited SMS ($2) ended, and packages such
as Fidopro, while still allowing fido-fido SMS, started to charge for incoming
SMS from sources such as Fido's web site as well as TAP port.  The Fidpro
package was essentially made obsolete for many because of that change and was
widthdrawn not too long after that.

Can't remember for sure, but I think that the demise of SMS was in january
2001 (that is also when Fido's web site was down for one week, and no notice
sent to subscribers that the email associated with Fidopro (name alias instead
of telephone number) had ceased to work and all profiles zapped).

It is also the time when, because of iFido, they started to block certain SMS
from foreign GSM networks (notably ringtones).

The bell/telus/rogers/fido  SMS interface came much later than that.
Edward S - 18 Mar 2004 01:17 GMT
>     I don't know where you get the $0.20/message from, I send all the time
> overseas and it's always been $0.15/message. Reception of course is free.

http://www.shoprogers.com/store/wireless/services/email/international_txt.asp?

=============
Remember, receiving Text Messages with Rogers AT&T Wireless is FREE**
and International Text Messages are no exception. Check the country
list below for the cost of sending an International Text Message.
You'll be surprised at how inexpensive it really is - only $0.20 or
less!
============

Country: Mexico
 Local Operator   How to dial   Cost per message sent
 Iusacell   011 - 52 - 2 or 3 digit region code - Mobile Number   $
0.20
 Telefonica Mexico   011 - 52 - 2 or 3 digit region code - Mobile
Number   $ 0.20

Country: Germany
 Local Operator   How to dial   Cost per message sent
 T-Mobile Germany   011 - 49 - 3 digit region code - Mobile Number  
$ 0.20
JF Mezei - 18 Mar 2004 11:16 GMT
>     Call the VM server directly from a land line of payphone, doesn't cost
> you a cent of airtime. I always did this with Fido,

Not true with Fido.  Free consultation of your mailbox from landline arrived
at the same time when Fido imposed a 1000 limit on call forwarding. Prior to
that, one had to pay fido airtime to access your voicemail from a landline.
repatch - 18 Mar 2004 16:31 GMT
> >     Call the VM server directly from a land line of payphone, doesn't cost
> > you a cent of airtime. I always did this with Fido,
>
> Not true with Fido.  Free consultation of your mailbox from landline arrived
> at the same time when Fido imposed a 1000 limit on call forwarding. Prior to
> that, one had to pay fido airtime to access your voicemail from a landline.

   Not with prepaid, I had prepaid with Fido from the start of prepaid
(fall 1998?) and calling the VM server through landline never resulted in
any airtime being deducted. TTYL
JF Mezei - 18 Mar 2004 21:12 GMT
>     Not with prepaid, I had prepaid with Fido from the start of prepaid
> (fall 1998?) and calling the VM server through landline never resulted in
> any airtime being deducted. TTYL

Prepaid arrived much later than the time when Fido stopped charging airtime
for accessing your voicemail from landline (and imposing a 1000 minute lilmit
on call forwarding).
repatch - 18 Mar 2004 23:15 GMT
> >     Not with prepaid, I had prepaid with Fido from the start of prepaid
> > (fall 1998?) and calling the VM server through landline never resulted in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for accessing your voicemail from landline (and imposing a 1000 minute lilmit
> on call forwarding).

   Huh??? No, JF, sorry, you've got things REALLY mixed up, prepaid has
been around for almost as long as Fido ahs existed. I remember when the 1000
minute limit started for voice mail, it was LONG after I had gotten my first
Fidomatic phone. TTYL
JF Mezei - 18 Mar 2004 23:20 GMT
>     Huh??? No, JF, sorry, you've got things REALLY mixed up, prepaid has
> been around for almost as long as Fido ahs existed. I remember when the 1000
> minute limit started for voice mail, it was LONG after I had gotten my first
> Fidomatic phone. TTYL

Ok I checked google. Seems that Fidomatic was introduced end of september
1998. Change to call forwarding limits and voice-mail access done in mid 1999.

But perhaps MistaRoboto is right in that they had the policy in place buit
never actually decucted airtime when accessing voicemail.
mistaroboto - 19 Mar 2004 02:47 GMT
I like this mode of thinking... :)

> But perhaps MistaRoboto is right in that they had the policy in place buit
> never actually decucted airtime when accessing voicemail.
mistaroboto - 18 Mar 2004 17:27 GMT
> >     Call the VM server directly from a land line of payphone, doesn't cost
> > you a cent of airtime. I always did this with Fido,
>
> Not true with Fido.  Free consultation of your mailbox from landline arrived
> at the same time when Fido imposed a 1000 limit on call forwarding. Prior to
> that, one had to pay fido airtime to access your voicemail from a landline.

Actually, you never did pay for accessing vmail from a landline, it was laid
out that they could, but they never did.
repatch - 13 Mar 2004 17:16 GMT
> > As far as contracts go, Fido used to have the highest brand loyalty, up until
> > the time they started to ruin the company (ruined web site, ruined SMS, ruined
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I have to disagree, I don't think the majority of the public really
> knows or understands the different, but they do know the brand 'Fido'.

   About the Fido "brand": it might be strong in the public's eye, but try
asking the public of their opinion of that brand. Most people don't speak
kindly of "Fido", at least the ones I've met. TTYL
mistaroboto - 13 Mar 2004 18:00 GMT
>     About the Fido "brand": it might be strong in the public's eye, but try
> asking the public of their opinion of that brand. Most people don't speak
> kindly of "Fido", at least the ones I've met. TTYL

one can only imagine your reference group.
Super Dave - 13 Mar 2004 18:28 GMT
"mistaroboto"
> one can only imagine your reference group.

ROTFLMAO :-)
repatch - 13 Mar 2004 18:33 GMT
> >     About the Fido "brand": it might be strong in the public's eye, but
> try
> > asking the public of their opinion of that brand. Most people don't speak
> > kindly of "Fido", at least the ones I've met. TTYL
>
> one can only imagine your reference group.

   Many people in the Toronto area. Try it some time: ask a few people you
know what THEY think about Fido. The most common repsonse I get is: their
coverge sucks. And this is coming from Toronto, where Fido's coverage is
about as good as it gets. TTYL
JF Mezei - 13 Mar 2004 19:51 GMT
> >     About the Fido "brand": it might be strong in the public's eye, but
> try
> > asking the public of their opinion of that brand. Most people don't speak
> > kindly of "Fido", at least the ones I've met. TTYL
>
> one can only imagine your reference group.

Actually,  since Fido's churn rate has gone from lowest to higest, wouldn't
the statement actually have some truth in it ? Why do people leave Fido ?

Brand recognition is one thing.
But brand loyalty, and good image is another.

Everyone may know about Fido, but if they see it as too small a network to be
good for them, then they won't high a very high opinion of Fido. And now that
Fido's busicess practices are going down to the same levels as Rogers and
Bell, there will be even fewer incentives for people to choose to switch to Fido.

Image is everything.
JF Mezei - 13 Mar 2004 22:20 GMT
Jyst to make a point: Fido  *still* has some advantages over the others. But
Fido has been eroding its advantages, or not taking advantage of them over the years.

And since the banks/analysts are complaining about high churn rate, instead of
choosing to maximise the potential of its advantages, Fido has chosen to
imitate its bigger rivals. At least that is what it seems to me.

Fido grew the most at a time where it had huge advantage over the others.
Growth stopped once Fido started to move towards the others as well as the
others moving towards Fido (closing the gap).

About Fido dollars: don't kid yourself. Plenty of peopple got free or nearly
free phone in the past. What they have done is to turn this into an official
service. The downside is that unless you get special offers, the average Fido
customer will have to wait a long time to accumulate enough points to get a
free phone. Fido Dollars is a good idea from a marketing point of view, at
least initially. But once people realise that it will take them 7 years before
they can get a free phone, they won't be so happy.

About contracts: They could have tied the contract only to the phone. You get
the phone for free, but with a debt of say $225 to Fido. And each month, Fido
reduces your debt by a percentage of your total bill. If you cancel before it
is back to 0, you owe them the balance. Oh, and once the balance is set to 0,
you get the unlock key if you are still a subscriber.

There are plenty of things that they could have done to protect their phone
subsidies. And if they really want to reduce their acquisition costs, they
coudl have struck a deal with Rogers where they would exchange either other's
locks at a fair price.

This way, if a Fido customer leaves to Rogers, Rogers could pay Fido a certain
amount and Fido would give Rogers the unlock code. Fido would then recuperate
its subsidy. But more importantly, a Rogers customer could "import" his phone
to Fido and that would cost Fido far less to acquire that cutsomer than if a
new phone had to be subsidized.

Fido didn't grow to its size by being conservative. Unfortunatly, they are now
becoming more conservative. (Not surprising considering its owners are now banks).

I would be very interesting in know how much revenu switching to send-to-end
generated for Fido  ? Had Fido marketed their former answer-to-end, I bet it
would have generated more revus in new cuistomers that the revenus the switch generated.
frank-in-toronto - 13 Mar 2004 22:53 GMT
<other stuff snipped>
>I would be very interesting in know how much revenu switching to send-to-end
>generated for Fido  ?
are you saying that my fido account is now send to end?  will i start
seeing all the ring-no-answers costing me air-time now?  
...thehick
repatch - 14 Mar 2004 02:10 GMT
> <other stuff snipped>
> >I would be very interesting in know how much revenu switching to send-to-end
> >generated for Fido  ?
> are you saying that my fido account is now send to end?  will i start

   Fido has been Send to end for years now, where have you been?

> seeing all the ring-no-answers costing me air-time now?
> ...thehick

   Calls that don't get answered don't get charged.
frank-in-toronto - 14 Mar 2004 04:33 GMT
<snip>
>    Fido has been Send to end for years now, where have you been?

>> seeing all the ring-no-answers costing me air-time now?
>> ...thehick
>    Calls that don't get answered don't get charged.
OK.  I interpretted "send-to-end" like my bell pay-as-you-go
where as soon as we hit SEND, it's a minute.

now i know better.
...thehick
repatch - 14 Mar 2004 17:24 GMT
> <snip>
> >    Fido has been Send to end for years now, where have you been?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> OK.  I interpretted "send-to-end" like my bell pay-as-you-go
> where as soon as we hit SEND, it's a minute.

   No. We have Bell pay as you go and you don't get charged for calls that
don't get answered. I don't know of a single carrier that does this. TTYL
JF Mezei - 14 Mar 2004 21:46 GMT
> > seeing all the ring-no-answers costing me air-time now?
> > ...thehick
>
>     Calls that don't get answered don't get charged.

just spoke to a 4 legged furry rep:

it took a long time for him to find this information. But he confirmed that as
long as the person at the other end doesn't pickup the phone, you are not
charged, even if you let it ring for 3 hours.

This is different from when I was with cantel where after 6 rings, they
considered the call to be answered from a billing point of view.
Steven Fisher - 13 Mar 2004 23:45 GMT
> Fido didn't grow to its size by being conservative. Unfortunatly,
> they are now becoming more conservative. (Not surprising considering
> its owners are now banks).

I really can't understand how they can be called conservative by anyone
paying any attention at all to programs like CityFido.
repatch - 12 Mar 2004 15:01 GMT
> On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:49:24 GMT, Steven Fisher says...
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> each other. I find those Telus ads really annoying. However
> it is also interesting they aren't targetting Rogers' customers.

   Those Telus ads are a result of "revenge" by Telus by what Fido did in
it's home turf (CityFido). TTYL
 
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