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Cellular Phone Forum / General / GSM / June 2004a835...is this legal?
Hi there, recently myhome was burgled & i lost a shed load of gear, stereo,tv etc & my motorola A835. The phone was deactivated shortly after being stolen, but now I have had the phone returned. I can't get it to work, even though I have a new phone (A835), can I change the IMEI number..willthis allow the phone to work again or is it permanatley dead!!!! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards & TIA MT > Hi there, recently myhome was burgled & i lost a shed load of gear, > stereo,tv etc & my motorola A835. The phone was deactivated shortly after [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards & TIA > MT Contact your Service Provider and have the IMEI number removed from the Black list. 73 de Simon, VK3XEM. > > Hi there, recently myhome was burgled & i lost a shed load of gear, > > stereo,tv etc & my motorola A835. The phone was deactivated shortly after [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > 73 de Simon, VK3XEM. for a moment there simon I thought you were going to send me dah-dah-dah-di-dit dah-dah-dah-di-dit's ;))))) Good to see a fellow ham answering my pleafor help. I would do that but then my insurance company will get shirty, it's a long winded story but maybe my last resort!!!! do you know if I can change the IMEI & will this cure the problem???? Have searched the net,but can't find this out :( Regards Mac EX:G0TXK >> > Hi there, recently myhome was burgled & i lost a shed load of gear, >> > stereo,tv etc & my motorola A835. The phone was deactivated shortly [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > answering my pleafor help. I would do that but then my insurance company > will get shirty, Only if you or your service-provider told them. Have you got the insurance payout cheque yet ? > it's a long winded story but maybe my last resort!!!! > do you know if I can change the IMEI & will this cure the problem???? Have > searched the net,but can't find this out :( Changing a phone's IMEI is most definately illegal (upto 5 years in prison), and is virtually impossible on some handsets, e.g. Nokia DCT4.  SignatureMichael Turner ( --. ----- -- . -- ) Email (ROT13) zvxr.gheare1963@ivetva.arg > Changing a phone's IMEI is most definately illegal (upto 5 years in > prison), and is virtually impossible on some handsets, e.g. Nokia DCT4. What country/ies is it illegal in? Given that this is a rather global newsgroup, it's important to be clear which laws you are referring to. >What country/ies is it illegal in? Given that this is a rather global >newsgroup, it's important to be clear which laws you are referring to. Well, it is illegal in the United States, the European Union and most African Nations. It is illegal in Japan, Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia. Not sure about Thailand but I suspect there too. I dont know but also suspect that it is also illegal in Austrailia and New Zeland. Most phones you cannot change the IMEI number without physically removing the chip that is the heart of the phone and replacing it. -- John S. e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net >> Changing a phone's IMEI is most definately illegal (upto 5 years in >> prison), and is virtually impossible on some handsets, e.g. Nokia DCT4. > > What country/ies is it illegal in? Given that this is a rather global > newsgroup, it's important to be clear which laws you are referring to. Europe, USA, Austrialia, New Zealand, and I'm sure there's quite a few more. The main exeptions would seem to be some African countries. SignatureMichael Turner Email (ROT13) zvxr.gheare1963@ivetva.arg > for a moment there simon I thought you were going to send me > dah-dah-dah-di-dit dah-dah-dah-di-dit's ;))))) Good to see a fellow ham [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Mac > EX:G0TXK Hi Mac! I have heard of IMEIs being changed, but not sure how to do it, maybe others here could explain it. I know here in Australia if you are caught changing the IMEI you can be in a lot of trouble though. 73 de Simon, VK3XEM. >>>Hi there, recently myhome was burgled & i lost a shed load of gear, >>>stereo,tv etc & my motorola A835. The phone was deactivated shortly [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Mac > EX:G0TXK If you're insurance carrier has already covered your loss by paying out on your claim, the old handset belongs to them. Call them from your new handset and ask them where to send it. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur I would challenge those here, who are saying it's illegal to change an IMEI The US, Europe, Africa, etc. You're telling me, that in the few years GSM phones have been around all of these nations have agreed and legislated, that changing an IMEI is illegal? I say horse-sh.t. Most of these nations have been debating for decades on gun control, abortion, legalisation of marijuana and in the case of the EEC, super-important things like whether a banana's the "legal" size, shape and colour to be imported. For them to have got laws on the books criminalising the changing of a cellphone IMEI in such a short space of time is very hard to believe. Is it also illegal, to change to MAC address of your ethernet card? It's essentially the same thing, as a phone's IMEI. It's hardly surprising, that people would think it was illegal - or to want it to be illegal. I can think of plenty reasons why someone would WANT to change their IMEI, but none of them are legitimate. Stolen phones. Drugs. Terrorism. Is there anyone here who can offer a legitimate reason for changing their IMEI? But back to the point. Like I said, I would seriously challenge whether it's "illegal" yet. Undoubtedly the phone companies would like you to think so, maybe the manufacturers too. But have any of them really persuaded governments to sit down and pass laws on the subject? I think I'd like to see it in writing or at least, from a lawyer. >I would challenge those here, who are saying it's illegal to change an IMEI And you woul lose! >I say horse-sh.t. How little you know! I suspect that the GSM companies have lobied the local authorities to legislate this. Your tirade (all of the rest of which has been left out) is just that and doesn't change the fact that it IS illegal in all the civilized world. -- John S. e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net >>I would challenge those here, who are saying it's illegal to change an IMEI > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > John S. > e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net Considering the millions that cellular carriers have spent on their own fraud prevention programs over the last 10-15 years, one would think a little federal legislation would help clean the stable just a wee bit. Oh, did I mention the CTIA has always had the attention of congress where fraud prevention is concerned? Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > >I would challenge those here, who are saying it's illegal to change an IMEI > And you woul lose! He hasn't lost until you've cited the law... Don't take it personally, this is just Usenet, and it's rather hard to prove a negative. >He hasn't lost until you've cited the law... Well, I am not going to search the FCC/Federal register or the particular law. He can do that if he really wants to know that detail. It is against the law regardless of whether I site the particular law or not. Ignorance of the law is no defence in the USA. -- John S. e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net > I would challenge those here, who are saying it's illegal to change an IMEI > > The US, Europe, Africa, etc. You're telling me, that in the few years GSM > phones have been around all of these nations have agreed and legislated, > that changing an IMEI is illegal? I say horse-sh.t. Equine excrement to you to! ;-) The problem with your theory, is that the law isn't always so specific. For example, if I invent the Star Trek "phaser" gun tomorrow, I can't go around killing people with it because the law hasn't banned ray-guns yet... murder is already very illegal. Similarly, the US government took care of IMEI changing in Title 18, Part I, Chapter 47, Section 1029, which makes a criminal of anyone who... "uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses a telecommunications instrument that has been modified or altered to obtain unauthorized use of telecommunications services..." or... "knowingly and with intent to defraud produces, uses, or traffics in one or more counterfeit access devices" (the law defines 'access device' to mean "any card, plate, code, account number, electronic serial number, mobile identification number, personal identification number, or other telecommunications service, equipment, or instrument identifier"... So, since our OP seems to be wanting to change an IMEI to use a phone his insurance company has reimbursed him for the loss of, that, at least in the USA, would fit the definition of altering the device "with the intent to defraud"... > For them > to have got laws on the books criminalising the changing of a cellphone IMEI in > such a short space of time is very hard to believe. Again, the law wouldn't specifically have to refer to an IMEI, just as the US laws do not. > Is it also illegal, to change to MAC address of your ethernet card? It's essentially > the same thing, as a phone's IMEI. Technicaly, perhaps, but since a subscription service isn't involved, it doesn't have the same ramifications with respect to fraud. Even with the US law, the actual changing of the IMEI isn't the illegal part- it's WHY you changed it. As you yourself stated, if there actually was a legitimate reason to change it, it'd technically be legal. Damned if I can think of a legitimate reason, however! > It's hardly surprising, that people would think it was illegal - or to want it to be > illegal. I can think of plenty reasons why someone would WANT to change their > IMEI, but none of them are legitimate. Stolen phones. Drugs. Terrorism. Is there > anyone here who can offer a legitimate reason for changing their IMEI? I'm coming up blank! > But back to the point. Like I said, I would seriously challenge whether it's > "illegal" yet. I've picked up your gauntlet, sir, and offer you a slap with it! ;-) At least where American law is concerned. I'll leave the postings of other countries' laws to their citizens. > Undoubtedly the phone companies would like you to think so, > maybe the manufacturers too. But have any of them really persuaded governments > to sit down and pass laws on the subject? In the States, yes. Motorola was very active in pushing cellular anti-fraud legislation in the early to mid-90's, when analog phone "cloning" was costing cellphone providers millions. > I think I'd like to see it in writing or at > least, from a lawyer. Sorry, just a civilian here who can cut and paste the US Code when necessary... > The problem with your theory, is that the law isn't always so > specific. For example, if I invent the Star Trek "phaser" gun It's a common problem when techies read the law. They assume it should be as precise as code. > > For them > > to have got laws on the books criminalising the changing of a cellphone IMEI in > > such a short space of time is very hard to believe. > Again, the law wouldn't specifically have to refer to an IMEI, just as > the US laws do not. Cellphone muggings have been in the news for years. What counter-argument would you use to stop a law banning IMEI changing? The OP cited many controversial examples of laws that people fight over. He may want to debate this, but if you can't come up with one or two sentences explaining why IMEI-changing shouldn't be banned, you will be ignored by lawmakers. > > Is it also illegal, to change to MAC address of your ethernet card? It's essentially > > the same thing, as a phone's IMEI. > Technicaly, perhaps, but since a subscription service isn't involved, > it doesn't have the same ramifications with respect to fraud. If you had DSL service that specified one, and only one computer, and that you must notify them if your computer changes, hacking your MAC address would probably be illegal. I'll remind you of the DMCA from 1998. It's illegal to use a device to bypass an access control system, even if what you were doing was legal. Fair use doctrine says that some copying is permitted - the DMCA says that if the media is encrypted, merely bypassing it is illegal. It utterly guts fair use and criminalizes going against the wishes of a copyright holder, a fundamental change from the past where your rights as a copyright holder were determined by law rather than your wish/business model. > Even with the US law, the actual changing of the IMEI isn't the > illegal part- it's WHY you changed it. As you yourself stated, if > there actually was a legitimate reason to change it, it'd technically > be legal. > > Damned if I can think of a legitimate reason, however! By the letter of the law, you're acting as if it's guilty until proven innocent. Obviously in front of a jury they'd be asking questions like "why were you waiting in the bushes with a baseball bat and chloroform?", but you don't actually need a legitimate reason. If I bought my phone direct from the manufacturer, changed the IMEI number, and then paid for service for the phone, I really wouldn't need to justify myself. How cryptographically secure is the IMEI exchange with the network? Privacy could be one argument - it is legal for me to wear a disguise. The SIM card proves I am a subscriber. The law says I must have nefarious intent. > I've picked up your gauntlet, sir, and offer you a slap with it! ;-) > At least where American law is concerned. > > I'll leave the postings of other countries' laws to their citizens. Based on your reading of fraud laws, it may be illegal in other countries as well, without explicit laws. I found a link to UK law that said changing the IMEI was illegal if you didn't make the phone, or have written permission from the manufacturer. Proving criminal intent is hard. > In the States, yes. Motorola was very active in pushing cellular > anti-fraud legislation in the early to mid-90's, when analog phone > "cloning" was costing cellphone providers millions. Right. Did you know that you can't buy a radio receiver that can pick up cellular frequencies in the US? Radio receivers must be difficult to modify to remove this limit - in practice the FCC has interpreted this to mean that reprogrammable firmware is not enough. Scanners for picking up police, fire, the military, and pretty much everything else are legal. It's just cellular that got the special treatment. > If I > bought my phone direct from the manufacturer, changed the IMEI number, > and then paid for service for the phone, I really wouldn't need to > justify myself. Except the fraud doesn't necessarily have to be pepetrated on the cell provider- in the OP's case, he was defrauding his insurance company- he recovered a lost/stolen phone he was reimbursed for and wants to use it without paying his insurer back. > How cryptographically secure is the IMEI exchange with the network? No idea. > Privacy could be one argument - it is legal for me to wear a disguise. > The SIM card proves I am a subscriber. The law says I must have > nefarious intent. The law I quoted does, yes. Like I mentioned in a reply to John S., the FCC issued a ruling barring any ESN changes. FCC rulings don't quite carry the full force of the law in court, but close enough. > Based on your reading of fraud laws, it may be illegal in other > countries as well, without explicit laws. I found a link to UK law > that said changing the IMEI was illegal if you didn't make the phone, > or have written permission from the manufacturer. Proving criminal > intent is hard. Depending on the circumstances- in the OP's case it wouldn't be... ;-) > Right. Did you know that you can't buy a radio receiver that can pick > up cellular frequencies in the US? Radio receivers must be difficult > to modify to remove this limit - in practice the FCC has interpreted > this to mean that reprogrammable firmware is not enough. It was at one time, however- the FCC actually "phased-in" the cellular scan-ban. For a brief period (to minimize costs to scanner manufacturers) existing scanner designs could be reworked with simpler blocking measures, but eventually harder to defeat measures had to be employed. When that law first came in effect, most scanners were basically reworked quickly to comply, and had an internal "switch"- a diode that needed to be cut, or a key sequence entered, to bypass the hurried firmware changes. I used to have an old RadioShack scanner (a rebadged Uniden) that was easy to remove the cellular lockout (cut diode D419, IIRC...) Regardless of the law, the wonderful inefficiencies of radio make cellular ea y to eavesdrop on, even after the ban. Most scanners werare inefficient enough to "ghost" signals on harmonics- adding the scanners IF frequency (or 2x the IF) to the cellular range received almost as well... > Scanners for > picking up police, fire, the military, and pretty much everything else > are legal. It's just cellular that got the special treatment. Sure- no Congressman was ever overheard calling his mistress on a police frequency! ;-) More interestingly, CORDLESS phone scanning was never banned- just cellular! One would think that a cordless phone user had the same right to privacy as a cellphone user! Of course, modern digital phones (both cordless and cell/PCS) pretty much made the scanner issue moot anyway. [....] > More interestingly, CORDLESS phone scanning was never banned- just > cellular! One would think that a cordless phone user had the same > right to privacy as a cellphone user! [....] I don't recall any specific statutory restriction of scanning consumer-grade cordless phone frequencies like cell phone frequencies are, but the right to privacy IS the same for both user classifications. Divulging the content of someone else's private conversation carries the very real risk of criminal sanctions, particularly if the intent was to cause harm, regardless of the transport medium. LAN/WAN technicians users aren't usually aware of this, but would do well to be aware of this when logged into a packet sniffer. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > If I > bought my phone direct from the manufacturer, changed the IMEI number, > and then paid for service for the phone, I really wouldn't need to > justify myself. Except the fraud doesn't necessarily have to be pepetrated on the cell provider- in the OP's case, he was defrauding his insurance company- he recovered a lost/stolen phone he was reimbursed for and wants to use it without paying his insurer back. > How cryptographically secure is the IMEI exchange with the network? No idea. > Privacy could be one argument - it is legal for me to wear a disguise. > The SIM card proves I am a subscriber. The law says I must have > nefarious intent. The law I quoted does, yes. Like I mentioned in a reply to John S., the FCC issued a ruling barring any ESN changes. FCC rulings don't quite carry the full force of the law in court, but close enough. > Based on your reading of fraud laws, it may be illegal in other > countries as well, without explicit laws. I found a link to UK law > that said changing the IMEI was illegal if you didn't make the phone, > or have written permission from the manufacturer. Proving criminal > intent is hard. Depending on the circumstances- in the OP's case it wouldn't be... ;-) > Right. Did you know that you can't buy a radio receiver that can pick > up cellular frequencies in the US? Radio receivers must be difficult > to modify to remove this limit - in practice the FCC has interpreted > this to mean that reprogrammable firmware is not enough. It was at one time, however- the FCC actually "phased-in" the cellular scan-ban. For a brief period (to minimize costs to scanner manufacturers) existing scanner designs could be reworked with simpler blocking measures, but eventually harder to defeat measures had to be employed. When that law first came in effect, most scanners were basically reworked quickly to comply, and had an internal "switch"- a diode that needed to be cut, or a key sequence entered, to bypass the hurried firmware changes. I used to have an old RadioShack scanner (a rebadged Uniden) that was easy to remove the cellular lockout (cut diode D419, IIRC...) Regardless of the law, the wonderful inefficiencies of radio make cellular ea y to eavesdrop on, even after the ban. Most scanners werare inefficient enough to "ghost" signals on harmonics- adding the scanners IF frequency (or 2x the IF) to the cellular range received almost as well... > Scanners for > picking up police, fire, the military, and pretty much everything else > are legal. It's just cellular that got the special treatment. Sure- no Congressman was ever overheard calling his mistress on a police frequency! ;-) More interestingly, CORDLESS phone scanning was never banned- just cellular! One would think that a cordless phone user had the same right to privacy as a cellphone user! Of course, modern digital phones (both cordless and cell/PCS) pretty much made the scanner issue moot anyway. >Sorry, just a civilian here who can cut and paste the US Code when >necessary... I think that there is also a law in place in the FCC rules that says ONLY a manufactrer can alter a serial number (IMEI or ESN). You might have it somewhere at your fingertips like you just provided in your previous message. This being the case, any individual altering the number is breaking yet another law. And the manufacturers won't change it for you for sure. -- John S. e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net > >Sorry, just a civilian here who can cut and paste the US Code when > >necessary... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This being the case, any individual altering the number is breaking yet another > law. And the manufacturers won't change it for you for sure. Not at my fingertips- sorry, but IIRC, the FCC issued a ruling even before the law passed saying the changing the ESN (or IMEI) was basically an unauthorized alteration of licensed transmitting equipment and therefore illegal under already-existing laws. The FCC often issues rulings to make things they don't like illegal simply because as a regulatory agency they can move much more quickly than a law-making body like Congress can. In some cases they probably overstep their authority with such rulings, but it buys enough time for Congress to ban something before the original FCC ruling gets challenged! ;-) > Not at my fingertips- sorry, but IIRC, the FCC issued a ruling even > before the law passed saying the changing the ESN (or IMEI) was > basically an unauthorized alteration of licensed transmitting > equipment and therefore illegal under already-existing laws. Interesting. I suspect that the FCC would win a challenge of this rule, since they would argue that, for example, they might discover a defect in a certain batch of phones. Thus, they'd want to know if they were on the air and block them from causing further interference. Robust identification requirements are a longstanding part of FCC rules. As a ham radio operator, I can be fined for not giving out my callsign every 10 minutes - and my callsign is linked to my home address in a public database. Privacy? what's that :) > for Congress to ban something before the original FCC ruling gets > challenged! ;-) Heh. Right. And of course, if the FCC is overruled, that in and of itself is an argument for Congress to pass a law. > I would challenge those here, who are saying it's illegal to change an > IMEI > > The US, Europe, Africa, etc. You're telling me, that in the few years > GSM phones have been around all of these nations have agreed and > legislated, that changing an IMEI is illegal? I say horse-sh.t. Wanna bet ? As I'm in the UK, we've got the "Mobile Telephones (Re-programming)" Act 2002" http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020031.htm ---------------- 1 Re-programming mobile telephone etc. (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he changes a unique device identifier, or (b) he interferes with the operation of a unique device identifier. (2) A unique device identifier is an electronic equipment identifier which is unique to a mobile wireless communications device. (3) But a person does not commit an offence under this section if- (a) he is the manufacturer of the device, or (b) he does the act mentioned in subsection (1) with the written consent of the manufacturer of the device. (4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable- (a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both, or (b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to a fine or to both. -------------- <ameriKKKan blog snipped> SignatureMichael Turner Email (ROT13) zvxr.gheare1963@ivetva.arg |
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