>I thought there was an FCC mandate that all new phones are required to
>have E911/GPS capability now.
>
>None of the Treo specs I've read say anything about built-in GPS
>capability. Am I missing something, or are the Treos?
The FCC mandate is only about location reporting accuracy by the carrier, not
technology, and doesn't mean that *you* will necessarily be able to get your
location from your handset.
<http://www.911dispatch.com/911_file/wireless911.html>
<http://www.911dispatch.com/911_file/tech_choices.html>
Phase II Wireless E911 Technology Choices
As of May 2003, here are the methods being used by the largest wireless
carriers to provide Phase II service:
Carrier Network
Technology Phase II Technology Type
T-Mobile GSM E-OTD* network
Nextel iDEN A-GPS handset
Cingular TDMA-GSM E-OTD* network
AT&T Wireless TDMA-GSM E-OTD* network
Verizon CDMA A-GPS/AFLT handset
Sprint CDMA A-GPS/AFLT handset
Both Cingular and AT&T Wireless are phasing out their TDMA networks.
* In Oct. 2002 Cingular and AT&T Wireless notified the FCC that it was
halting E-OTD development because they were uncertaint that
the technique could meet the accuracy requirement by the Commission's
deadline. In March 2003 T-Mobile also told the FCC
it would stop deployment of E-OTD gear. The carriers said they would test
U-TDOA technology to provide Phase II service.

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John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular
>I thought there was an FCC mandate that all new phones are required to
>have E911/GPS capability now.
NOTHING says anything about GPS. E911 is a different story. The current
technology can locate you within a few feet and GPS isn't necessary in the
individual phones.
>None of the Treo specs I've read say anything about built-in GPS
>capability
Probably because there isn't any GPS built in capability.
--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
John Navas - 20 Nov 2004 05:10 GMT
>>I thought there was an FCC mandate that all new phones are required to
>>have E911/GPS capability now.
>
>NOTHING says anything about GPS. E911 is a different story. The current
>technology can locate you within a few feet
Not even close to that -- more like 50-100 meters.
>and GPS isn't necessary in the
>individual phones.
True, but A-GPS is being used in CDMA networks.

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matt weber - 20 Nov 2004 20:50 GMT
>[POSTED TO alt.cellular.gsm - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Not even close to that -- more like 50-100 meters.
It is about 15 meters typically without WAAS, figure about 5-10 meter
with WAAS, but WAAS requires a WAAS bird be visible, and the data and
calculation to apply the WAAS correction is NOT trivial.
realisticallly 50 feet has been easily achieved ever since SA was
turned off. However GPS really doesn't work so well in the big city.
To many places where because of obtacles, and position of the phone,
it cannot see enough of the sky.
>>and GPS isn't necessary in the
>>individual phones.
>
>True, but A-GPS is being used in CDMA networks.
John Navas - 21 Nov 2004 01:59 GMT
>>>>I thought there was an FCC mandate that all new phones are required to
>>>>have E911/GPS capability now.
>>>
>>>NOTHING says anything about GPS. E911 is a different story. The current
>>>technology can locate you within a few feet
>>Not even close to that -- more like 50-100 meters.
>It is about 15 meters typically without WAAS, figure about 5-10 meter
>with WAAS, but WAAS requires a WAAS bird be visible, and the data and
>calculation to apply the WAAS correction is NOT trivial.
That's GPS accuracy. Current location technology in cellular is *not* GPS
accuracy. What I wrote is correct.

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>I thought there was an FCC mandate that all new phones are required to
>have E911/GPS capability now.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Scott
There is a mandate to be able to locate the phone. there is no mandate
about how to do it, and to be blunt, GPS is a poor choice. To many
places where it doesn't work. Most service providers are going to
meet the locate the phone requirement by measuring timing delays at 2
or BTS's. It is much more reliable than GPS.
The timing measurement gives you the distance, and you almost always
know the bearing +/- 60 degrees, so while with only 2 BTS's, you
calculate two positions from the timing, one of them will be far
enough away from the main lobe on one of the antennae to make it easy
to recognize that only 1 of the two position can be possible.
John Navas - 20 Nov 2004 05:11 GMT
>>I thought there was an FCC mandate that all new phones are required to
>>have E911/GPS capability now.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>meet the locate the phone requirement by measuring timing delays at 2
>or BTS's. It is much more reliable than GPS.
Much more reliable, but much less accurate -- on the order of 100-300 meters.
>The timing measurement gives you the distance, and you almost always
>know the bearing +/- 60 degrees, so while with only 2 BTS's, you
>calculate two positions from the timing, one of them will be far
>enough away from the main lobe on one of the antennae to make it easy
>to recognize that only 1 of the two position can be possible.
In practice it's not that easy.

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Jer - 20 Nov 2004 05:15 GMT
>>I thought there was an FCC mandate that all new phones are required to
>>have E911/GPS capability now.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> enough away from the main lobe on one of the antennae to make it easy
> to recognize that only 1 of the two position can be possible.
Matt, it's far more comprehensive than that. In a True Position U-TDOA
Phase-2 production network, every street, alley, highway, and parking
lot is field driven with a GPS equipped vehicle, overlayed onto a street
address map, along with a repetitive-call simulator feeding raw data
into a resultant look-up database of known GPS coordinates tied to
timing specs from as many BTS sites (>3 equipped with LMUs) as could
track the simu-calls. This process creates a GPS-calibrated timing map
overlayed with street addresses. When a handset initiates a 911 call,
multiple timing specs previously recorded from that location match a
GPS-calibrated street address, which is then provided to the PSAP before
a voice channel is assigned (~100-300 msec).
So, while the handset doesn't have it's own GPS receiver, the cellular
system was calibrated with GPS - and signal timing specs, when repeated,
provide a level of location accuracy well within FCC requirements. It
works with any handset capable of using the system, is unaffected by
weather, overhead obstructions, and signal reflections have already been
accounted for. I've heard on rare occasions, a handset's timing signal
from one BTS will anomalize, maybe due to recent construction of nearby
objects creating a new (unknown) reflection - and is tossed aside - but
other BTS timing details are adequate to afford a successful placement
of the handset's location. I've also heard these anomalies are tracked
for trending, and subsequent re-calibration of these areas is regarded
as a standard maintenance issue.
I think if one would peruse the True Posotion website, a number of
carriers are listed as clients, and a more comprehensive explanation is
available.

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