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Cellular Phone Forum / General / GSM / March 2004

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ATT sold me a GSM phone, then built an incompatible GSM network!

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Dan Birchall - 26 Feb 2004 03:40 GMT
Aloha folks,

I've been an ATT Wireless customer for almost four years here in Hawaii.
I started out with a Nokia 5160 on their TDMA network, upgraded to an
8260, moved from Honolulu to Hilo, and upgraded again to a 3650 on their
GSM network last April.

At the time I upgraded to the 3650, I had to talk to a *lot* of people
on the phone, since they were just getting up and running and their
"migration" process was a massive "charlie foxtrot."  I was told that
service would initially only be available in Hilo, but that it would be
rolled out in the more rural areas soon.

I believe the main tower serving the Hilo "metro" (haha) area, which was
already upgraded at that time to serve both 1900MHz and 850MHz GSM, is:
 FCC reg# 1006853, 19.6386N/155.0472W, KEAAU

In the ensuing 10 months, three other nearby towers, serving outlying
towns and the main highway around the island, have been upgraded:
 FCC reg# 1007553, 19.4831N/154.8822W, PAHOA
 FCC reg# 1058613, 19.9403N/155.2008W, NINOLE
 FCC reg# 1018562, 19.4831N/155.2781W, OOKALA

Unfortunately, these three towers appear to have been upgraded with
support for GSM on the 850MHz band ONLY.  Which means I spent $250
(that's $400 minus rebates) on a "mobile" phone that isn't very
"mobile" after all.  (Oh, and yes, I *know* 850 has better propagation
than 1900, and all that stuff.)

My child attends school in the PAHOA tower's service area; 1900MHz
service from KEAAU is very spotty there, if it comes in at all.  I
travel the highway served by the NINOLE and OOKALA towers for work
and leisure frequently, there is no coverage there whatsoever, once
I get a few miles from Hilo.

Last week, I went to the local AT&T Wireless store (Kilauea Avenue,
Hilo) to talk to them about whether there were any solutions to this
problem.  The closest thing they had on 850MHz was the Nokia 3200,
with an inferior camera, no Bluetooth, no RAM expansion, a smaller
screen, and a dumbed-down interface instead of the 3650's fullblown
Series 60 environment.

I posted about my problem on AT&T's customer web forums (registration
required) - "1900MHz nodes hard to find on Hawaii's Big Island" in their
"Report Network/Service Issue" board.  Other users pointed out that the
3650 has been superseded on AT&T's web site by the 3620 - same phone,
"normalized" keypad, and 850/1900MHz support - and that there was the
possibility that ATT Warranty Repair might send a 3620 back if I sent
my 3650 in for a firmware upgrade.

Today, I called ATT's Customer Care folks, and explained the problem I
had with lack of network compatibility, along with the need for a
firmware upgrade (phones aren't supposed to randomly switch completely
off, apps aren't supposed to crash consistently).  They said I'd have
to buy a new 3620 retail, full-price ($320), OR buy one from their
web site for $199 with a year's activation, but I'd wind up with a
different number, would still have my existing contract, etc etc.

Then I callled Warranty Repair, and they said that they could replace
my somewhat quirky phone with a new one for $25... but it'd still be
a 3650, and still wouldn't work here.

Then I called Customer Care a couple more times, and eventually got to
someone who asked me what I wanted (I want a 3620 as a replacement for
my 3650 since most of their network here is totally incompatible with
the 3650), checked with their supervisor and some "resolution" specialist,
came back and said that as soon as the 3620 became available in stores,
they'd let me have one for $199 if I extended my contract by a year,
and I wouldn't have to wait for my current contract to run out in 2
months.  That was their best offer.

Gosh, thanks, guys.  You sold me a phone, told me you'd be rolling out
service, then rolled out service that doesn't work with it.  But hey,
I can get one that works for only $BIGBUCKS more.  Not good business
practices, there - in fact, after determining that Customer Care was
totally unwilling to resolve things, I filed a BBB complaint, and since
I know there are plenty of other 3650 users here, I'm debating whether
any local lawyers might be interested in doing anything "on behalf of"
all of us - and I'm not a litigous sort.

The horrible part?  The FCC database indicates that AT&T's got towers
in *significantly* more towns on this island than any other carrier -
13 or 14, compared to 7 for Verizon and 8 for T-Mobile - and looks to
be the only company that doesn't leave big huge populated areas without
any coverage at all.  So if I switch, I'm probably even worse off.

-Dan
Donald Newcomb - 26 Feb 2004 04:56 GMT
> Gosh, thanks, guys.  You sold me a phone, told me you'd be rolling out
> service, then rolled out service that doesn't work with it.  But hey,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> any local lawyers might be interested in doing anything "on behalf of"
> all of us - and I'm not a litigous sort.

Dan,
Chill man. I didn't know Hawaiians could get so riled up. It's GSM; just buy
a dual-band (850/1900) phone off eBay for $50 and swap your SIM.
Signature

Donald R. Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

Dan Birchall - 26 Feb 2004 05:44 GMT
>  Chill man. I didn't know Hawaiians could get so riled up. It's GSM; just
>  buy a dual-band (850/1900) phone off eBay for $50 and swap your SIM.

My current phone is a Nokia 3650 with the full Series 60 environment, many
applications, a 640x480-resolution camera, Bluetooth, a large screen, and
an MMC card slot for RAM expansion (I have a 128MB card in it.)  Can you
suggest any models of dual-band 850/1900 phones I could get for $50 on eBay
that would offer those features?

In all seriousness, AWE would probably be happy to give me something cheap,
say a 3200, for my troubles.  But I use my phone in situations where I need
its phone capabilities _and_ its other capabilities, and I don't want to be
carrying around 2 phones and swapping SIM cards all the time and all that.

AWE's bureaucracy seems to be a problem.  The folks in the call-center out
here understand where I'm coming from, but the 3260 - an 850/1900 version of
my current phone - is only available through the web site, and the folks in
the call center don't have the ability to get things that are only available
through the web site.  It's kinda weird. :)

I'm still very much pondering my options.  I might end up waiting and seeing
if I can score a 3620 (or 6620!) after my contract ends... or I might decide
to go with a "dumbed-down" phone like the 3200 (which I think is a VERY NICE
phone - just one without a variety of the features I use regularly) and drop
to some el-cheapo service plan, to maintain some degree of reachability while
at the same time not rewarding them too generously for their (lack of)
service.
Vlad Andreyev - 27 Feb 2004 01:33 GMT
Does T-Mobile allow AT&T customers to roam on its network in Hawaii?  If
not, have you tried doing a network search in those areas where you need
service but can't pick up AT&T signal?  If you pick up T-Mobile signal
during the search, this means that there is T-Mobile coverage where you need
it, and so you could dump AT&T and switch.  In that case, you could probably
get your phone unlocked and use it with T-Mobile.  If this solution works, I
know it's not as satisfying as getting AT&T to provide the kind of service
that they are supposed to, but it's probably more realistic.

Signature

       \/ L /\ D

drnewcomb@attglobal.NOT.net (Donald Newcomb) wrote:
>  Chill man. I didn't know Hawaiians could get so riled up. It's GSM; just
>  buy a dual-band (850/1900) phone off eBay for $50 and swap your SIM.

My current phone is a Nokia 3650 with the full Series 60 environment, many
applications, a 640x480-resolution camera, Bluetooth, a large screen, and
an MMC card slot for RAM expansion (I have a 128MB card in it.)  Can you
suggest any models of dual-band 850/1900 phones I could get for $50 on eBay
that would offer those features?

In all seriousness, AWE would probably be happy to give me something cheap,
say a 3200, for my troubles.  But I use my phone in situations where I need
its phone capabilities _and_ its other capabilities, and I don't want to be
carrying around 2 phones and swapping SIM cards all the time and all that.

AWE's bureaucracy seems to be a problem.  The folks in the call-center out
here understand where I'm coming from, but the 3260 - an 850/1900 version of
my current phone - is only available through the web site, and the folks in
the call center don't have the ability to get things that are only available
through the web site.  It's kinda weird. :)

I'm still very much pondering my options.  I might end up waiting and seeing
if I can score a 3620 (or 6620!) after my contract ends... or I might decide
to go with a "dumbed-down" phone like the 3200 (which I think is a VERY NICE
phone - just one without a variety of the features I use regularly) and drop
to some el-cheapo service plan, to maintain some degree of reachability
while
at the same time not rewarding them too generously for their (lack of)
service.
Eddie Walker - 28 Feb 2004 05:48 GMT
is the system in question formerlly Cingular?(they sold it a year or two ago
to at&T? ironic now they will beback if thats the case)
> Does T-Mobile allow AT&T customers to roam on its network in Hawaii?  If
> not, have you tried doing a network search in those areas where you need
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> at the same time not rewarding them too generously for their (lack of)
> service.
Steven M. Scharf - 02 Mar 2004 03:43 GMT
> Aloha folks,
>
> I've been an ATT Wireless customer for almost four years here in Hawaii.
> I started out with a Nokia 5160 on their TDMA network, upgraded to an
> 8260, moved from Honolulu to Hilo, and upgraded again to a 3650 on their
> GSM network last April.
<snip>

The same problem exists for Cingular subscribers in the western region that
have 1900 Mhz-only handsets, while Cingular has been converting TDMA 800 Mhz
to GSM 800 Mhz (or 850 whatever people want to call it).

You're S.O.L. unfortunately, especially if they're the only decent carrier
on the island. You could probably get the termination fee waived if you went
to small claims court, but that's a huge hassle, and doesn't solve the
coverage problem.
 
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