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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Sprint PCS / August 2004Sprint PCS' Internet card overture dispute.
I am just glad this happened to me before my final recommendation, to my company, we move to Sprint. Extreme caution should be taken when doing business with this company. They are borderline fraudulent. If you have problems with them I suggest going to www.bbb.org and file a complaint. It only take a few minutes and you might get results. Also send a formal complaint letter to any Sprint address you can find. Here is mine. 8-16-04 Sprint PCS 6160 Sprint Parkway Overland Park, KS 66251 Re: PCS Internet card overture dispute. Dear Sprint, In March 2004 I signed up for a PCS Internet card for my laptop (832-754-4921). I was advised by the salesman to get, at least, the 30-megabyte plan so I did so. I was advised of the overture cost and to check my usage regularly. I used the card with minimal problems except I could never get my current usage. The hardware and connection software did not give this information and when I logged into my PCS account it always said "Unavailable" and still does. I was able to get my current usage one time when I called and spoke to your tech support people. This took over 30 minutes. Several months went by and according to my records paid about $45 a month for the service. Suddenly on July 21 I received a bill for $595 and I immediately called customer service. I was told I exceeded my 30-megabyte limit and the outrageous bill was a result. I told the story of being unable to check my current megabyte usage and disputed the bill. The person I spoke with agreed and recommended that I move to the 300-megabyte plan, which I did. He also insured me the July bill would be based on the new plan so I would owe about $100 instead of $595. Last week I went to the Sprint store to move my Wife and I from Nextel, which we have had for 8 years, onto Sprint. I was told my current account was in collections and was thus denied. We have not received anything via mail or phone indicating the account is delinquent. This as not only embarrassing but very upsetting. I immediately called customer support again and was told we don't roll previous usage into new plans and that there is nothing could do because the account is now in collections. As a new customer and stockholder of Sprint I don't have a very good first impression. Although we have been very happy with the service I feel this $595 bill fringes on being fraudulent. If you can't provide a reasonable method for me to know my usage how can you charge me for it? I would have certainly changed my plan if I knew I needed to. I ask for is this ridiculous $600 bill be based on the new plan implemented on July 21. Your agent insured me it would, although this is not reflected in the "Notes" section of your records it did occur. I insist this phone call be listened to so I am not considered a liar. I want to continue doing business with Sprint and move my family and business to it, but unless this can be reasonably settled I don't see how that can happen. Best Regards James Higgins TOSC International CC: Gary Forsee, Sprint Headquarters, FON Group, Sprint PCS, Sprint Store Houston, Kingsbury & Associates "Although we have been very happy with the service I feel this $595 bill fringes on being fraudulent. If you can't provide a reasonable method for me to know my usage how can you charge me for it?" You went over your minutes and were billed correctly. Pay the bill. You could have tracked your usage by calling customer service. Either way, you agreed to pay if you went over so pay. Your "excuse" is weak at best. BTW, unlimited MB is only $80. I would ask how the connection was (because I'm considering getting a card/service) but apparently it was pretty good since you used it a lot. > I am just glad this happened to me before my final recommendation, to > my company, we move to Sprint. [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > CC: Gary Forsee, Sprint Headquarters, FON Group, Sprint PCS, Sprint > Store Houston, Kingsbury & Associates > "Although we have been very happy with the service I feel this $595 bill > fringes on being fraudulent. If you can't provide a reasonable method > for me to know my usage how can you charge me for it?" Good luck, let us know if they give you any consideration. From past experience, I can give sympathy but I bet they jam it up there high and tight, sorry. I have had the $80 a month unlimited plan for a year. I use the modem maybe 10 times a month, and the merlin card interface I have does tell me how many bytes are going up and down. You pay for both. I think my typical on line session runs may be 3-8 megs. I am glad you shared this, I have often thought maybe I could go to a more limited plan, but I see if you go over once, the get screwed potential is stratospheric. In fact I suspect those lower megabyte plans are just sucker bait. Always get an unlimited plan if you can. "the get screwed potential" explain how paying for what you use is getting screwed? >>"Although we have been very happy with the service I feel this $595 bill >>fringes on being fraudulent. If you can't provide a reasonable method [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > suspect those lower megabyte plans are just sucker bait. Always get an > unlimited plan if you can. > "the get screwed potential" > explain how paying for what you use is getting screwed? Fair question. The answer is when the overage charges are clearly unreasonable. I get unlimited usage for $80 a month. On a limited data plan, depending on you start paying from somewhere between 2-4 cents PER KILOBYTE, and thats UP and DOWN. Figure for example a month where someone on an unlimited plan and someone on a limited plan uses 100 megabytes each. The unlimited user pays $80. Say the limited plan is $45 for 30 megs, and say the overage charge is 3 cents per kilobyte. So the 70 meg overage charge is going to 70 x 1024 kb/meg x 0.03 = $2150. Say its 1 cent a kilobyte, 70 x 1024 x0.01 = $716.8 Say its a 1/2 cent, the overage runs $358. Now, how does Sprint get away with charging me $80 for 100 megs and some other schmoe hundreds of dollars? There are a few ways of looking at this, but I think most reasonable people would say Sprint has an inherently predatory pricing scheme on limited data plans. "how does Sprint get away with charging me $80 for 100 megs and some other schmoe hundreds of dollars?" Interesting argument. But if I were to buy a $35, 300 minute phone plan and I use 2500 minutes, I'd pay a LOT more for the $35 minute plan then I do for my $130 unlimited plan that I have. If I bought the wrong plan it would be up to me to pay the bill and upgrade to a more appropriate plan for the next month. Sprint has NO IDEA what my usage will be. It is up to me to buy the correct plan. The pricing model for data is very similar as for the phones (pay for incomin/outgoing calls, pay for minutes used, etc where with data you pay for incoming/outgoing MB, etc). I don't think Sprint is doing anything wrong. >>"the get screwed potential" >>explain how paying for what you use is getting screwed? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > but I think most reasonable people would say Sprint has an inherently > predatory pricing scheme on limited data plans. > "how does Sprint get away with charging me $80 for 100 megs and some > other schmoe hundreds of dollars?" > Interesting argument. But if I were to buy a $35, 300 minute phone plan > and I use 2500 minutes, I'd pay a LOT more for the $35 minute plan then > I do for my $130 unlimited plan that I have. Interesting that you bring that up. That $130 plan is only available with Sprint Complete Sense, is it not? I can't even get Sprint here, not for landlines. There are about a quarter of a million people living in the Victor Valley, but it's not a large enough market that it can support a bunch of competing carriers. No MCI, AT&T, Sprint up here except for LD calls. So even if I wanted to benefit from the unlimited plan, I don't qualify for it. I wouldn't mind dropping Verizontal in favor of Sprint for my landlines; hell, I use them for everything else telecomm-related already... cellular and long distance. But I can't, because Verizon doesn't have competition for local dialtone in this area. And aren't a couple of the high-end PCS voice plans more than $130?  SignatureJustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/ Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED) Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids. > So even if I wanted to benefit from the unlimited plan, I don't qualify for > it. I wouldn't mind dropping Verizontal in favor of Sprint for my landlines; > hell, I use them for everything else telecomm-related already... cellular and > long distance. But I can't, because Verizon doesn't have competition for > local dialtone in this area. And aren't a couple of the high-end PCS voice > plans more than $130? And now SPCS has abandoned further advancement into residential local service. For what it's worth, though, there *is* an unlimited usage plan, for business customers. $200/month. No add-a-phone sharing option, so it's $200/month *per line*. Or, at least, it was there when I left. SignatureRØß O/Siris ~+~ "A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", 1792 Yes it is for complete sense. I am stuck with one option as well, it just happens that my local monopoly is Sprint. I have 2 land lines with unlimited local/LD, 2 cell plans (one unlimited and one 750 minute plan) and I have earthlink (which I beleive is still sprint). >>"how does Sprint get away with charging me $80 for 100 megs and some >>other schmoe hundreds of dollars?" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > local dialtone in this area. And aren't a couple of the high-end PCS voice > plans more than $130? > .....I do for my $130 unlimited plan that I have. If I bought the wrong plan > it would be up to me to pay the bill and upgrade to a more appropriate > plan for the next month. Sprint has NO IDEA what my usage will be. It > is up to me to buy the correct plan. The pricing model for data is very > similar as for the phones (pay for incomin/outgoing calls,..... You are right, Sprint has no idea how you or I as individuals are going use your service, but, I am certain they have a well developed bell shaped curve for their customer base and can readily quantify the proportion of the customer base who will 1) opt for a lower price plan 2) will go over it and 3) have identified this as a profit center of opportunity - preying on people who go over their base plans with price gouging surcharges. I go back to the example, I use a 100 megs, pay $80, Sprint's revenue is $80 cents a meg. Schmoe who buys a 30 meg plan and, like some people in the bell shaped curve, may have no idea how many kbytes are in a meg or how many megs are in a a typical web browsing session at say yahoo, and gets charged, min case, 358+45 = $403, or about 4 bucks a meg. If Sprint is making money on my $80, then they have to be making at least $320 profit on Schmoe's bill. (Especially when Schmoe says he can't find the data usage on his bill. Just for giggles, I went to check mine, and lo, the my account web page says the data is not available at this time - which is what it said when I looked at it 3 months ago. The only way I have to meter my usage is through the Merlin software, which just tells me usage per session, so I would have to keep a manual log to know my total monthly usage - now Schmoe says his software does not do do that, so how is he supposed to monitor his usage?) Should the buyer beware? Sure, this is a free market economy. Is Sprint entitled to collect something from Schmoe's overuse of his plan, even be punitive about it to a reasonable extent? No reasonable person would argue otherwise. But, in our economy, we also say things like, no price gouging for water and hotel rooms after a hurricane, things like interest and lending practices must be regulated to guard against lender abuse, and most utilities most places are regulated by some kind of public service commission so the lights stay on, the water flows and the toilet flushes To me, it looks Sprint's pricing structure for limited data plans is not only punitive, its crosses the line and is predatory. >> .....I do for my $130 unlimited plan that I have. If I bought the wrong >plan [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >To me, it looks Sprint's pricing structure for limited data plans is not >only punitive, its crosses the line and is predatory. It could also be that they plan for how much data tranfers there might be in an area due to the plans purchased. If they have 95 people who purchase a 30 MB plan and only 5 people who purchase the unlimited plan, Sprint can make a reasonable assumption on how to allocate resources to this area as opposed to an area where 95 people purchase the unlimited plan and only 5 people purchase a smaller plan. Not everyone needs unlimited and are willing to pay a lesser rate for the access. This is not punitive, it is poor planning on the CUSTOMERS part, ...... > >To me, it looks Sprint's pricing structure for limited data plans is not > >only punitive, its crosses the line and is predatory. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > access. This is not punitive, it is poor planning on the CUSTOMERS > part,... No arguement on some of that , buying a cheap plan and crossing your fingers you will be below the limits is not good planning. So is continuing to use it when you can't measure how much you used. Kinda like driving a car in which the gas gauge don't work. I am not sure about the "reasonable assumption" Sprint makes about how much usage occurs based on who pays what plan though. I think Sprint probably has a base cost for recovering capital invested in the equipment and then almost assuredly has costs that are proportional to usage. I would challenge someone in the industry to say it ain't so, but charging me 80 cents a meg for 100 megs and charging someone else $4 a meg for some bloke who wonked his estimate of usage, or didn't care, or couldn't find out, or what, can't be seen as anything other than opportunistic. We can back and forth on this, but lets put it another way: Supposed you booked a hotel, got a weekend special of $200 on a really great room at a swank joint, had such a great time decided to stay another day, and without thinking it through, told the front desk, I am staying anothe day. Next day you choke on his inroom coffee with a bill for $700. it seems the extra day is on week day rate and no discount, yahdayada. Are you stuck with the bill? Yup. Were you a dunderhead for not asking how much an extra night costs? Yup. Are you gonna pay the bill and self flaggellate yourself are you going to ask for consideration? Unless your rich, you will probably suck it, go to the front desk, cry the blues, and ask for some consideration. Are they going to give you any relief? Probably Not.. Bottom line: How are you going to feel about the hotel and how soon are ae you going back and what will you tell your friends about the place? > I am not sure about the "reasonable assumption" Sprint makes about how much > usage occurs based on who pays what [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > didn't care, or couldn't find out, or what, can't be seen as anything other > than opportunistic. Is that supposed to be a negative, being opportunistic? Look, SPCS offers plans and are very up-front about those plans having limited usage. And SPCS *does* train reps in some rough figures to give customers an idea of usage. But, as SOME point, the customer has to accept responsibility for knowing what they've used. Now, in that regard, there *is* a fault in the system. But the Merlin software isn't the only means to determine usage. Reps at *2 *do* have the ability to see how much data usage has been incurred, and in fact we are warned to warn the customer about this. Call us back during that three months. That's what that first three months is for. And remember that, too. Three months in which overage is not charged, and the customer is able to just use the service and decide for himself or herself if that plan is right for what they intend or need to do. So, *if* the system was followed as it's designed to be used, then your analogy needs some modifying. You didn't just use that extra day once. You were given several warnings, didn't take note of the forgiven charge on your bill, and then, on the fourth such extra day, NOW you're complaining. Let me reiterate, though, that the OP's description of what happened suggests to me that the system was *not* explained to him, so, in his specific case, I think he's got a case. But I think equally as much that your general complaint does not. SignatureRØß O/Siris -+- "A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", 1792 >To me, it looks [like] Sprint's pricing structure for limited data plans is not >only punitive, its crosses the line and is predatory. To me, a longtime Wireless Web user who would really like to upgrade to 3G, it looks like Sprint's entire data plan structure is really designed to deter me from buying a data plan. First, why make me buy a phone and a wireless card, and deal with two different phone numbers and pieces of hardware for voice and data? Obviously, because Sprint wants to make money, since there is no technological reason for it. Many Vision phones work fine as modems. Requiring two pieces of hardware is not user frienldy. Secondly, given the data transfer speeds that can be achived and the hardware investment, the cost of the data plans seems way too high for the service recieved. I get Comcast cable Internet (unlimited data transfer and I get their increased speed version in my area) for $50/month. Comcast is probably 15-20 times faster than what I would get with the data card, yet the unlimited data card plan costs over $100/month. Granted, I wouldn't be tied to a cable with the data card, but it's not like I'm free to roam anywhere I want to with the data card, I still have to be within the range of 3G Sprint tower. I'd be interested to know how successful Sprint has been at selling these data plans under their current scheme, or if they really care about selling data plans. To me, it seems like Sprint wants to be able to say that they have data capability, so the company looks progressive to shareholders and prospective investors, but that Sprint really doesn't want folks using their network for data. Sure, hardcore data users will buy the plans, but people like me, who travel occasionally and could use data while traveling, will be deterred because of the pricing and hardware costs. The Wireless Web modem is just getting too slow for the content of most websites now. I'll probably just get Vision, use it as a modem when I travel, and hope not to cross the magic threshold of abuse. Actually, with most airports and many medium priced hotels offering wireless Internet, I'm finding that I can get by ok without Wireless Web or Vision data. Joseph Huber Huber.Joseph@comcast.net > Secondly, given the data transfer speeds that can be achived and the > hardware investment, the cost of the data plans seems way too high for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > card, but it's not like I'm free to roam anywhere I want to with the > data card, I still have to be within the range of 3G Sprint tower. I've only ever been able to speculate about this, because I never accepted the claim that heavy data usage of the phones as modems hurt the network. On the other hand, I think you skirted around the real reason: home-based broadband. Again, I'm speculating, but I've always thought the pricing structure was deliberately high so as to *not* compete with "wired" solutions like DSL, cable, etc. Sprint designed their network with an eye on the mobile worker, not on some generic consumer sitting at home on a PC that never goes anywhere. That's not to say that Vision *couldn't* support the stationary consumer. Only that a deliberate decision was made to design the system without that consumer in mind. And the pricing just simply works to deter that same consumer. BTW, I think the plans have done very well. As a Vision Tech, I was getting 2-3 calls per night during the troubles we had early this year. Almost all of them were truckers. Not as high-volume as phones, obviously. But definitely noticeable. SignatureRØß O/Siris -+- **A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice.** -Thomas Paine. The Rights of Man. 1792- > I've only ever been able to speculate about this, because I > never accepted the claim that heavy data usage of the > phones as modems hurt the network. I think the deal is that when you pay for Internet transit and/or peering at the level that Sprint PCS does, IOW by buying large pipes to the Net, you get billed for what you actually use. It therefore costs SPCS real money if they ever need to upgrade their connectivity to handle lots of heavy data usage. Granted, they probably get a sweet deal from Sprint's Internet division. But it's still a lot of money when you talk about the volume of data they're probably trying to push around. SignatureJustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/ Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED) Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids. > You went over your minutes and were billed correctly. Pay the bill. > You could have tracked your usage by calling customer service. Either > way, you agreed to pay if you went over so pay. Your "excuse" is weak > at best. BTW, unlimited MB is only $80. I would ask how the connection > was (because I'm considering getting a card/service) but apparently it > was pretty good since you used it a lot. Only if an account is configured as a Business account. And I can speak from experience that, even then, reps can be too lazy to even find it. I was on the 300MB one because of that very issue. Now I'm back on a phone simply because data was no longer my primary concern. If the 3 month grace period wasn't explained to him, then he had at least two bills that made it seem as though he was not going over. He had no way to see, and two bills (at least) to leave him the impression that he was fine. He's got a legitimate beef here, in my opinion. SignatureRØß O/Siris ~+~ "A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", 1792 Whatever is written in the contract is what should be followed. If he didn't understand the contract that is his issue. RØß Vargas wrote: >>You went over your minutes and were billed correctly. Pay the bill. >>You could have tracked your usage by calling customer service. Either [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > He's got a legitimate beef here, in my opinion. > As a new customer and stockholder of Sprint I don't have a very good > first impression. Although we have been very happy with the service I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > business to it, but unless this can be reasonably settled I don't see > how that can happen. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. What happened, is, unfortunately, very easy to do with Vision. Even at the reduced data pricing when you exceed your allotted MB's. When a data card is set up with SPCS, it is automatically given a 3- month grace period where you pay for the plan you ordered, but overage fees are forgiven. You're supposed to call in (and, dammit, that usage is not *that* hard for a rep to find. 20 minutes is just plain stupid), and the rep helps you determine if the plan is large enough for what you are doing. That's how it's SUPPOSED to happen. Obviously, it didn't. But yeah, these data cards (I had the Sierra 550 myself for a couple of months, just to see for myself), they can suck up some megabytes in a real big hurry. The plan you got was for 30 MB. And when the first three months ended, it started charging you for everything over 30MB. A penny for every 5KB. $2/MB. For those who have noticed, yes, that's one-fifth the charge for a phone getting charged per KB. So... $595. I think $45 is, in fact, the monthly charge for the 30MB plan. So that leaves $550. Divide by 2, and that's 275MB. 305MB in a month? Yeah, that can be done. Easily. Reps are *supposed* to discuss this with you. It's in the policies they're taught. I was certainly taught them, and I can't imagine I was all *that* outside the norm (not so far being trained, at least). I certainly hope you get a proper resolution to this. If you can get through this, I think you're going to be very happy with the network and what it can do for you. Best of luck. SignatureRØß O/Siris ~+~ "A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", 1792 |
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