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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / T-Mobile / March 2007

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T-zones is working again

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Sven Golly - 03 Mar 2007 20:53 GMT
My good old t-zones $4.99 is back to where it was a week ago. Exchange
sync, wap browsing, most internet stuff and pop3 all working on my T-
mobile SDA.

I'm happy. For now.

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Sven Golly
Yah sure by gosh by yumpin' yiminy
Trolling as usual
Change the "_" to "." to reply by email

Sven Golly - 04 Mar 2007 02:50 GMT
> I'm happy. For now.

And now I'm not. Yet another outage. This time it's TMO email.

Also told the PDA rep that if they even THINK of forcing me to a data
plan just so my SDA will work, I'll move to Cingular in an heartbeat. 5
years with TMO.

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Sven Golly
Yah sure by gosh by yumpin' yiminy
Trolling as usual
Change the "_" to "." to reply by email

News - 04 Mar 2007 12:25 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>  

Get packing?   Why should voice subsidize data?
John Richards - 05 Mar 2007 00:04 GMT
What do you mean by voice subsidizing data?
My $5.99 T-Zones pays the freight for light duty web browsing and email.

John Richards

 Sven Golly wrote:

Sven Golly <sven_medelsvensson@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns98E8832B0E462svengolly@66.250.146.128:

 I'm happy. For now.
   
And now I'm not. Yet another outage. This time it's TMO email.

Also told the PDA rep that if they even THINK of forcing me to a data
plan just so my SDA will work, I'll move to Cingular in an heartbeat. 5
years with TMO.

 Get packing?   Why should voice subsidize data?
News - 05 Mar 2007 14:01 GMT
"Light duty" is in the eye of the beholder.  Most expect the "all you
can eat" buffet.

> What do you mean by voice subsidizing data?
> My $5.99 T-Zones pays the freight for light duty web browsing and email.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>     Get packing?   Why should voice subsidize data?
>      
evadnikufesin - 04 Mar 2007 18:34 GMT
> Also told the PDA rep that if they even THINK of forcing me to a data
> plan just so my SDA will work, I'll move to Cingular in an heartbeat

And you'll be even more pissed. I know plenty of people who dumped Cingular
for T-Mobile because of Cingular customer service and cost. I know T-Mobile
can have it's rough spots.. but I've used most of the major cell providers
out there and trust me.. Cingular is one to *avoid*.

Now that Nextel is part of Sprint - I've dumped my contract early with them
because their customer service has gotten even WORSE.

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That hoary cripple, with malicious eye
Askance to watch the working of his lie"

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Dennis Ferguson - 05 Mar 2007 02:41 GMT
>> Also told the PDA rep that if they even THINK of forcing me to a data
>> plan just so my SDA will work, I'll move to Cingular in an heartbeat
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> can have it's rough spots.. but I've used most of the major cell providers
> out there and trust me.. Cingular is one to *avoid*.

Depends what costs you are concerned with.  I left T-Mobile for Cingular
because Cingular has generally better international roaming rates (this
wasn't always true) and significantly better overseas long distance rates,
if you pay them $10/month extra to get them.  And I'm still a bit pissed
off that T-Mobile sold their original quad-band phones with 850 MHz
disabled, though that is ancient history now.

I liked T-Mobile a lot better than Cingular when I've had problems, though,
and I'd still be with them if I didn't need to occasionally run up big bills
on overseas service.  I don't know why T-Mobile won't compete on those
prices; it's their above-ARPU customers they are discouraging by keeping
them high.

> Now that Nextel is part of Sprint - I've dumped my contract early with them
> because their customer service has gotten even WORSE.

I had Sprint service for 7 years, and the only thing I have to complain
about is that their administrative systems seem to be the worst in the
industry.  When I had a problem they were always very friendly, but it
took forever to get them to fix stuff since their computer wouldn't let
them.

Dennis Ferguson
Roger Binns - 04 Mar 2007 03:07 GMT
> My good old t-zones $4.99 is back to where it was a week ago. Exchange
> sync, wap browsing, most internet stuff and pop3 all working on my T-
> mobile SDA.

I had Google Maps and Opera Mini not working during the week.  Was going
to call up today and found them working again.  Looks like they realised
that taking away functionality made their service less useful.

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/009220

One day they'll realise the benefit of SMS instead of charging
outrageous amounts for it.  Each message uses the same amount of
bandwidth as about .1 of a second of a voice call, but are charged
disproportionately more.

Roger
Todd Allcock - 04 Mar 2007 17:29 GMT
> I had Google Maps and Opera Mini not working during the week.
> Was going to call up today and found them working again.  Looks like
> they realised that taking away functionality made their service
> less useful.

> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/009220

That "story" has nothing to do with this issue.

T-Mo has opened up free access to all users since last October because of
a glitch in their high end Windows Mobile phones' software that prevent
them from sending or receiving MMS messages unless they have internet
access.  In order to give users ofthose phones the ability to MMS, T-Mo
silently "opened" the internet to all customers.

Due to very large increase in internet use by T-Mo customers because of
this, T-Mo shut off access (to those not paying) for a few days, but
opened it up again because of complaints from those unable to us MMS.

The reason this affects the $5/month data users like Sven and I, is
because this $5.99 plan is a port-limited and feature-limited plan.  It
only has e-mail ports (25, 110, etc.) open, and a special T-Mo proxy
server set up to allow WAP and Web browsing at port 8080.  Apps using any
other ports, (like Opera Mini, Google Maps, Real Audio, VoIP, etc.) or
that can't be configured to use a proxy, won't work unless you have a
"real" $20-30/month data plan that has all ports open.

So we $5/month data users will be stripped of our $30/month privileges
again soon, and be limited to e-mail and browsing JUST LIKE ALWAYS (or at
least up until October when T-Mo opened this up.)

> One day they'll realise the benefit of SMS instead of charging
outrageous amounts for it.  Each message uses the same amount of
bandwidth as about .1 of a second of a voice call, but are charged
disproportionately more.

True- because it's a competitive market for voice, so you make your money
in addons.

Texting packages are fairly rasonable- it's only "overages" that are
overpriced, just like voice minutes.

If I ever understand why someone would want to engage in an IM-style chat
session over SMS when there's a perfectly good PHONE in the hands of both
people, I expect I'd understand the younger generation a lot better than
I do presently!  The telephone replaced the telegraph for very good
reasons!  ;-)
Roger Binns - 04 Mar 2007 18:19 GMT
> The reason this affects the $5/month data users like Sven and I, is
> because this $5.99 plan is a port-limited and feature-limited plan.  It
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that can't be configured to use a proxy, won't work unless you have a
> "real" $20-30/month data plan that has all ports open.

I only wanted to use Google Maps and Opera Mini and hence have the $5.99
option for it.  The built in browser (v3t) is completely useless.  I
guess if they don't want me to use those apps, the revenue for this user
will drop by $5.99 a month.

> Texting packages are fairly rasonable- it's only "overages" that are
> overpriced, just like voice minutes.

I don't think they are at all reasonable.  If they were around 1 or 2
cents then that would closer to the right ballpark.  Voice plans are
around 10-20 cents a minute (plus oodles of unmetered minutes in myfaves
or n&w).

> If I ever understand why someone would want to engage in an IM-style chat
> session over SMS when there's a perfectly good PHONE in the hands of both
> people, I expect I'd understand the younger generation a lot better than
> I do presently!  The telephone replaced the telegraph for very good
> reasons!  ;-)

The telegraph was in fixed locations - you couldn't carry it with you.
As to why use SMS over voice:

- It doesn't interrupt the other end if they are busy (ie just like
email they are queued and can be dealt with in any order at any time)

- They do not disrupt other people around you as voice does

- They are saved for reference (eg if you are sent a shopping list or an
address you have a record of it)

- You can do one to many (ie send the same message to lots of people)

- You can do many to one (ie be in simultaneous exhanges with lots of
people)

Basically SMS lets people operate asynchronously while calls have to be
handled synchronously.

Roger
xPosTech - 04 Mar 2007 23:04 GMT
>> The reason this affects the $5/month data users like Sven and I, is
>> because this $5.99 plan is a port-limited and feature-limited plan.  It
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Roger
I ain't believin' this ****.

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Ted
I wasn't born in Texas but
I got back here as soon as I could
(Don't forget to take out the trash)

When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by
doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do.

John Richards - 05 Mar 2007 00:11 GMT
>> As to why use SMS over voice:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>> Roger
> I ain't believin' this ****.

What is that supposed to mean?

Signature

John Richards

xPosTech - 05 Mar 2007 01:23 GMT
>>> As to why use SMS over voice:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> What is that supposed to mean?

The original quotes missing from your post:
Todd Allcock wrote:
> If I ever understand why someone would want to engage in an IM-style chat
> session over SMS when there's a perfectly good PHONE in the hands of both
> people, I expect I'd understand the younger generation a lot better than
> I do presently!  The telephone replaced the telegraph for very good
> reasons!  ;-)

On 3/4/2007 12:19 PM, Roger Binns wrote:
The telegraph was in fixed locations - you couldn't carry it with you.
As to why use SMS over voice:

I'll never understand why they don't teach history anymore.  Kids* today
don't really know pre-cellphone?  pre-digital pager?  pre-pager?
pre-answering machine?  pre-(touch)tone dialing?  pre-unassisted long
distance?  pre-area codes?

I apologize for my rants in this and my previous post.  I guess I'm just
an old broken down dinasaur who worked on computers once, and was young.

*Born after the middle of the last century.

Again, my apologies.  Please don't think all old men are as grouchy as
this one.
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Ted
I wasn't born in Texas but
I got back here as soon as I could
(Don't forget to take out the trash)

Consulting:
If you're not a part of the solution,there's
good money to be made in prolonging the problem.

Steven J. Sobol - 05 Mar 2007 05:42 GMT
> I'll never understand why they don't teach history anymore.  Kids* today
> don't really know pre-cellphone?  pre-digital pager?  pre-pager?
> pre-answering machine?  pre-(touch)tone dialing?  pre-unassisted long
> distance?  pre-area codes?

I am 38 this October. I remember rotary-only dialing, as it was
prevalent through the 1970s when I was little. I'm not old enough to
remember pre-unassisted long distance, pre-area codes, or phone
numbers shorter than seven digits. Sorry. :(

> Again, my apologies.  Please don't think all old men are as grouchy as
> this one.

Ahh, I won't hold it against you :)

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Steve Sobol, Professional Geek ** Java/VB/VC/PHP/Perl ** Linux/*BSD/Windows
Victorville, California     PGP:0xE3AE35ED

It's all fun and games until someone starts a bonfire in the living room.

John Richards - 05 Mar 2007 19:36 GMT
> I am 38 this October. I remember rotary-only dialing, as it was
> prevalent through the 1970s when I was little. I'm not old enough to
> remember pre-unassisted long distance, pre-area codes, or phone
> numbers shorter than seven digits. Sorry. :(

Being 64, I remember all those 'features' from the mid to late 50's.
Several customers shared a 'party' line, and you had to wait for the
line to clear before you could place a new call.

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John Richards

Joey DoWop Dee - 05 Mar 2007 19:59 GMT
>> I am 38 this October. I remember rotary-only dialing, as it was
>> prevalent through the 1970s when I was little. I'm not old enough to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Several customers shared a 'party' line, and you had to wait for the
> line to clear before you could place a new call.

In the 50s we had a party line at our beach house. Our ring was two-long,
two-short rings. We were (supposed) to ignore any other ring patterns, as
they were for calls meant for others on our party line. Right. On a rainy day
at the beach there wasn't much else to do but listen in on other people's
conversations.

It was also operator-assisted as to placing calls: pick up the receiver, wait
for "Call please" and then say the four-digit number of the neighbor you were
calling or the seven-digits of a regional call. It wasn't quite like "Madge,
get me the Wilson family, please" but close.

We NEVER made long distance calls then. Those were a luxury.

I'll be 61 sooner than I'd like. :-)

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Joey DoWop Dee
Remember: It is To Laugh

Todd Allcock - 05 Mar 2007 02:39 GMT
> I only wanted to use Google Maps and Opera Mini and hence have the
> $5.99 option for it.

Sadly, those apps never worked until the October T-Mo internet "Christmas
gift."

The problem isn't just T-Mo as much as it's the inability for most
phone's Java implementation to redirect the traffic over a proxy.  Google
Maps for Windows Mobile, and Opera for WinMo (not the Java versions) work
over my MDA, because they will use the proxy.

> The built in browser (v3t) is completely useless.  I guess if they
> don't want me to use those apps, the revenue for this user will drop
> by $5.99 a month.

Fair enough.  I use the $5.99 plan for e-mail and browsing.  While GMM is
cute, I use Mapopolis for navigation (GMM draws data so constantly while
navigating too many voice calls go to voicemail.)

> I don't think they are at all reasonable.  If they were around 1 or 2
> cents then that would closer to the right ballpark.

They offer 400 for $5- that's 1.25 cents each- right in your target
ballpark.  1000 for $10 (1-cent each) or unlimited for $15.

> The telegraph was in fixed locations - you couldn't carry it with you.
> As to why use SMS over voice:
>
> - It doesn't interrupt the other end if they are busy (ie just like
> email they are queued and can be dealt with in any order at any time)

As can e-mail, which is unfettered by 160-character limitations, and is
"free" with a $5.99 data plan.


> - They do not disrupt other people around you as voice does
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> - You can do many to one (ie be in simultaneous exhanges with lots of
> people)

All true of e-mail as well.  SMS was a primitive mobile version of e-mail
designed in the days when phones and networks were less evolved.  Why
it's still around is still the mystery to me I guess!  The only real
advantage of SMS I see (over e-mail) is that it's lowest common
denominator- every phone has it.

> Basically SMS lets people operate asynchronously while calls have to be
> handled synchronously.

But again, if it's so useful to you, then I think the messaging plans are
reasonable.  If you use enough to justify the $4.99 plan, it's cheap.  If
you don't text enough to need the plan, the higher per use cost isn't an
issue.  I've never used enough texts to run up more than $1 in texting
charges, so the plans don't interest me, but to each his or her own.
John Richards - 05 Mar 2007 19:41 GMT
>> I only wanted to use Google Maps and Opera Mini and hence have the
>> $5.99 option for it.
>
> Sadly, those apps never worked until the October T-Mo internet "Christmas
> gift."

I had Google Maps and Opera Mini working on my RAZR prior to October,
but only after I did a SEEM edit which restored the Web Sessions menu.

Signature

John Richards

Todd Allcock - 06 Mar 2007 00:31 GMT
> I had Google Maps and Opera Mini working on my RAZR prior to October,
> but only after I did a SEEM edit which restored the Web Sessions menu.

Ahh, that explains a lot.  I was never able to get any of my phones
(Nokias) configured to get Java apps to work through the proxy.
Roger Binns - 06 Mar 2007 08:53 GMT
> The problem isn't just T-Mo as much as it's the inability for most
> phone's Java implementation to redirect the traffic over a proxy.  

Tmo could do the redirection in their network just like many isps do
(aka transparent proxies).  Requiring that the phone be reconfigured
seems an especially strange way of doing things!

>> I don't think they are at all reasonable.  If they were around 1 or 2
>> cents then that would closer to the right ballpark.
>
> They offer 400 for $5- that's 1.25 cents each- right in your target
> ballpark.  1000 for $10 (1-cent each) or unlimited for $15.

(BTW that is still 10 times the price of voice for comparable usage). It
would be worth considering if I spent 13-30 messages every single day.
When I was on Verizon with 200 messages for $2 (some promotion when I
signed up), my monthly average was 35 messages and my peak was 150.  Now
that I use Tmo, it just isn't worth an extra $60 a year so I am down to
4 or so a month.

> As can e-mail, which is unfettered by 160-character limitations, and is
> "free" with a $5.99 data plan.

I don't think that is the case for phones crummier than yours :-)  As
far as I can tell for my RAZR you only get SMS/MMS even if using email
which looks like it goes through a SMS/MMS gateway.

> All true of e-mail as well.  SMS was a primitive mobile version of e-mail
> designed in the days when phones and networks were less evolved.  Why
> it's still around is still the mystery to me I guess!  The only real
> advantage of SMS I see (over e-mail) is that it's lowest common
> denominator- every phone has it.

SMS also has reliable delivery and delivery notices.  This is especially
important when you and the recipient have spotty connectivity.  In the
US you get the benefit when messages stay within one carrier, but
typically not between carriers, unlike the rest of world.  Email is just
"best effort" (that is a technical term!) and you really have no idea
what happens to your messages.

Another advantage of SMS is the lack of spam.  Admittedly some people
get the occasional message, but it is nowhere near the order of
magnitude as with normal email.

> But again, if it's so useful to you, then I think the messaging plans are
> reasonable.  If you use enough to justify the $4.99 plan, it's cheap.  If
> you don't text enough to need the plan, the higher per use cost isn't an
> issue.  I've never used enough texts to run up more than $1 in texting
> charges, so the plans don't interest me, but to each his or her own.

I don't think it is in Tmo's interest the way they priced them. Another
example is how the landline carriers in the US charged for caller id.
What happened is that many people didn't bother using it, and lots just
set reserved.  Caller id (like SMS) benefits from the network effect,
where you get exponential benefit and usage the more people there are
participating.  In the UK (where I am from) caller id was free.
Consequently everyone used it and more calls happened as a result.

So I tell people not to SMS me, and I fully expect that I won't be able
to use my phone for Google maps and Opera Mini once tmo "fix" their
network.  They are just providing feedback that causes me to use my
phone less, as well as use fewer features with my network of contacts,
and to rely on other means for the same goals such as email, wifi, IM etc.

Roger
Todd Allcock - 06 Mar 2007 17:35 GMT
> > The problem isn't just T-Mo as much as it's the inability for most
> > phone's Java implementation to redirect the traffic over a proxy.  
>
> Tmo could do the redirection in their network just like many isps do
(aka transparent proxies).  Requiring that the phone be reconfigured
seems an especially strange way of doing things!

True, but I think T-Mo is at a bit of a crossroads as to data.  They've
been trying to sort out who should be paying what for what features.
They've tried to make the $5.99 plan a very basic internet plan for
"dumbphones" and their $30 plan a "complete" internet plan for
"smartphones."  Ironically, most smartphones are smart enough to get
around the artificial constraints they've placed on the $5.99 plan to
exploit full or nearly full access, while most dumbphones can't, and lose
features like java app connectivity, etc.

> > They offer 400 [texts] for $5- that's 1.25 cents each- right in
> > your target ballpark.
>
> (BTW that is still 10 times the price of voice for comparable usage).

True.  Similarly the $2.00 soft drink or coffee you order in a restaurant
has 10 times the profit margin of the steak on the plate next to it.  In
a mature market like wireless, it's all about "add-ons."

> It would be worth considering if I spent 13-30 messages every single day.
When I was on Verizon with 200 messages for $2 (some promotion when I
signed up), my monthly average was 35 messages and my peak was 150.

Wow!  Back when my plan gave me 50 for free, my peak was probably 10!  

> Now that I use Tmo, it just isn't worth an extra $60 a year so I am
> down to 4 or so a month.

Which, arguably, highlights their _true_ importance to you.


> > As can e-mail, which is unfettered by 160-character limitations, and is
> > "free" with a $5.99 data plan.
>
> I don't think that is the case for phones crummier than yours :-)  As
far as I can tell for my RAZR you only get SMS/MMS even if using email
which looks like it goes through a SMS/MMS gateway.

But your RAZR is a java-enabled phone, so you could use a java based e-
mail client like reqwireless.com's "emailviewer."  (There are several
J2ME-based options, but I knew that one off the top of my head.)

> SMS also has reliable delivery and delivery notices.  This is
> especially important when you and the recipient have spotty
> connectivity.

Fair enough- you've got me there!  

>  In the US you get the benefit when messages stay within one carrier,
> but typically not between carriers, unlike the rest of world.  Email
> is just "best effort" (that is a technical term!) and you really have
> no idea what happens to your messages.

(Although, to be fair, the same is true of paper postal mail, and in both
cases the vast majority seem to get through!)  ;-)

> Another advantage of SMS is the lack of spam.  Admittedly some people
get the occasional message, but it is nowhere near the order of magnitude
as with normal email.

True again...

> I don't think it is in Tmo's interest the way they priced them.

I think it is, because of the mobile phone "culture" differences in the US.
Even if you made texting 1-cent, you aren't going to get us "old folks"
using it regularly (I'm 40.)  I understand it has it's uses, and I've
used it in specialized circumstances (too poor a signal for reliable voice,
crowded arena making it impossible to hear the phone, "clandestine"
communication, etc, but I can count the number of times I've initiated a
texting session on one hand.  So, the reason I think US carriers
"overcharge" for texting is because the texting market in the US is
comparitively small, so they'd never get 10x the text usage a 1-cent that
they now get for 10-cents, so dropping the price of texting would drop
total revenue.  

>  Another example is how the landline carriers in the US charged for
> caller id. What happened is that many people didn't bother using it,
> and lots just set reserved.  Caller id (like SMS) benefits from the
network effect, where you get
> exponential benefit and usage the more people there are participating.

You don't have to have Caller ID in the US to show up on other people's
CID displays, nor does subscribing to caller ID require you to display
your own CID so there is no real "network effect."

And because virtually all US landlines have unlimited, unmetered service
for local calls, caller ID was never intended to increase phone usage- it
was designed to increase revenue.  There is NO company incentive to
increase usage on an unlimited account!

>  In the UK (where I am from) caller id was free. Consequently everyone
> used it and more calls happened as a result.

But you have a pay-per-call system there, do you not?  So "giving away"
CID to increase call volume benefits the carrier through increased revenue.
In the US' unmetered system, what benefit to the landline carrier does
increasing usage have?

Similarly, after much experimenting with SMS prices and plans over the
years, US carriers have learned two things- those who do text will text a
lot, and most who don't text much still won't, even if it's cheap or
free.  Given those two data points, lowering pay-per-use SMS makes little
sense.

> So I tell people not to SMS me, and I fully expect that I won't be
> able to use my phone for Google maps and Opera Mini once tmo "fix"
> their network.  They are just providing feedback that causes me to
> use my phone less, as well as use fewer features with my network of
> contacts, and to rely on other means for the same goals such as email,
> wifi, IM etc.

Which, while true, doesn't really effect their revenue.  For example,
your "boycott" of SMS (like mine) doesn't hurt them, because we're only
willing to use it if it's cheap.  Your self admitted texting "peak" of
150 messages is $1.50 of revenue at the penny a text rate you'd require
to use that many.  Do you think they want your $1.50 or my $0.50 over a
teenager's $5, $10 or $15 bundle?  You've spoken with your wallet-
texting is worth $2/month to you, tops, since you were willing to buy a
$2 bundle but unwilling to buy a $5 one.  Catering to your pricing
requirements apparently isn't economical to them (since T-Mo had a $2.99
messaging plan and dumped in in favor of a $5 one.)

Similarly, since T-Mo isn't charging for data by the kb, your inability
to use Google Maps or Opera Mini isn't hurting them either.  While it
might cause you to drop your $6 data plan, the fear at T-Mo is that those
spending $20 or $30 for data will drop to the $6 if it offers
esssentially the same features.  They can afford to lose four of us $6
users for each $30 user that _doesn't_ drop to $6!
Roger Binns - 06 Mar 2007 21:56 GMT
> True, but I think T-Mo is at a bit of a crossroads as to data.  They've
> been trying to sort out who should be paying what for what features.

Sure seems like it.  I hope they come out ahead of the other carriers.
The important thing they have to realise is that data is all over the
place (over cable, DSL, wifi, wimax, cell, paper mailing DVDs etc) and
that you really want to encourage users to depend on your cell service
for much data usage.  Otherwise users will go elsewhere.  Note how
people abandoned land lines in droves once they could.

Using Google Maps (or equivalent) as examples, they really should be
encouraging people to use that on their phone in preference to other
means as it makes the phone more valuable to the user.

> Ironically, most smartphones are smart enough to get
> around the artificial constraints they've placed on the $5.99 plan to
> exploit full or nearly full access, while most dumbphones can't, and lose
> features like java app connectivity, etc.

:-) That is why they need to put the smarts in the network, not in the
phone configuration!

> True.  Similarly the $2.00 soft drink or coffee you order in a restaurant
> has 10 times the profit margin of the steak on the plate next to it.  In
> a mature market like wireless, it's all about "add-ons."

My point is that add-ons are what make the phones more valuable to the
users, but by having them as addons, and especially disproportionately
priced (voice data and SMS data are way more similar than Coke and
steak) you put people in the position of having to decide if they want
to use it, and looking at the money each time.  They are suffering from
the same issues micropayments do.  See this essay (and the mental
transaction costs link within):

http://www.shirky.com/writings/fame_vs_fortune.html

Games on cell phones have already failed dismally because of the add-ons
nature and the desire for short term revenue over making the phone more
valuable.  Here is one link:

http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38012

This explains how a handful of PSP games (with the PSP being considered
somewhat of a market failure) produced twice the revenue for EA than all
cell phone games worldwide! (3rd paragraph from end)

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4822&Itemid=2&
limit=1&limitstart=2


It will be interesting to see if Helio succeeds as they just offer a
flat plan with unlimited everything and try to make your phone more
valuable to you.  Or more accurately they do so if you live on MySpace.

> Wow!  Back when my plan gave me 50 for free, my peak was probably 10!  

Interesting information on popularity worldwide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS#Popularity

>> Now that I use Tmo, it just isn't worth an extra $60 a year so I am
>> down to 4 or so a month.
> Which, arguably, highlights their _true_ importance to you.

No, it highlights that I have plenty of acceptable alternatives, none of
which have an incremental cost.

> But your RAZR is a java-enabled phone, so you could use a java based e-
> mail client like reqwireless.com's "emailviewer."  (There are several
> J2ME-based options, but I knew that one off the top of my head.)

I already write my own J2ME apps.  (Just did one to have the contents of
Delicious Library on my phone so I don't buy the same DVD twice!)
Unfortunately they use signing as a revenue enhancing model which means
you get prompted constantly on each network access.

> I think it is, because of the mobile phone "culture" differences in the US.
>  Even if you made texting 1-cent, you aren't going to get us "old folks"
> using it regularly (I'm 40.)

I'm just a few years younger than you :-)  SMS has a network effect.  If
your friends and family used it than you would too.

>  So, the reason I think US carriers
> "overcharge" for texting is because the texting market in the US is
> comparitively small, so they'd never get 10x the text usage a 1-cent that
> they now get for 10-cents, so dropping the price of texting would drop
> total revenue.  

Standard economics supply and demand curves.  I think they have just got
themselves in the wrong place, just like the game link (theinquirer)
above says about games.

> You don't have to have Caller ID in the US to show up on other people's
> CID displays, nor does subscribing to caller ID require you to display
> your own CID so there is no real "network effect."

You did have to pay to have a display show anything.  That does have a
network effect.  If your friends and family don't have a display then it
won't matter to them if you send your callerid or not.  Just like SMS
(or cell phones themselves), the more other people do it in your circle,
the more likely you are to do it because of the increased utility to
everyone.

> And because virtually all US landlines have unlimited, unmetered service
> for local calls, caller ID was never intended to increase phone usage- it
> was designed to increase revenue.  There is NO company incentive to
> increase usage on an unlimited account!

That is true in a vacuum.  But there are other options such as email.
The phone service has reliable delivery (especially compared to email)
yet people abandoned landlines  for email.  In France they had an
excellent system called Minitel which the phone company used to increase
the utility of the phone system to customers.

> But you have a pay-per-call system there, do you not?

Yes, caller pays.  However local calls were around 1 cent per minute so
it was below a threshold where you were particularly concerned.

> In the US' unmetered system, what benefit to the landline carrier does
> increasing usage have?

They make the service more useful to customers compared to the alternatives.

> Similarly, after much experimenting with SMS prices and plans over the
> years, US carriers have learned two things- those who do text will text a
> lot, and most who don't text much still won't, even if it's cheap or
> free.  Given those two data points, lowering pay-per-use SMS makes little
> sense.

It must also cost them a fortune in customer service.  The light texters
are going to call up about every single "spam" message.  And because
people don't use it much, they don't get the network effect.  A few
years ago I wrote something so that you could send a barcode (number) to
an email address from your phone and it responded with pricing and
description information from Amazon.  Everyone who saw my demo wanted me
to make a company out of that (not exactly original) idea!

There is almost zero commerce around SMS in the US, but there could be
*if* the carriers thought that way.  But to do it requires thinking
differently and giving people reasons to use add-ons, rather than diming
and diming at every possible opportuity to discourage usage.

> Similarly, since T-Mo isn't charging for data by the kb, your inability
> to use Google Maps or Opera Mini isn't hurting them either.  While it
> might cause you to drop your $6 data plan, the fear at T-Mo is that those
> spending $20 or $30 for data will drop to the $6 if it offers
> esssentially the same features.  They can afford to lose four of us $6
> users for each $30 user that _doesn't_ drop to $6!

That is all true in the short term.  But in the long term I am more
likely to go alternative services since the phone isn't compelling to
me, basically only doing voice.  And if they put the intelligence in the
network, they can ensure that usage matches plan options.

Personally I am a great fan of having base items bundled, just like
caller id is on all carriers.  (If they made it $$ and optional I'd drop
 it!)  If they included a certain amount of data, text messaging etc no
matter what then it would encourage people to use those services a bit.
 And those people would then have the same effect on others (you reply
to a SMS by sending one in reply!)  And people wouldn't call up customer
service over one spam SMS in a month since it wouldn't be charged for.
And others would find their phone compelling to keep if they ran Google
Maps once a month (for free), as opposed to considering cheaper
phones/plans such as the pre-paid tracfone and its ilk.

But it doesn't really matter what we think.  I hope Tmo tries to make
the phone and service more compelling to all its customers by thinking
differently, rather than taking the approach all the other carriers did.

Roger
Todd Allcock - 07 Mar 2007 05:30 GMT
Roger, first off, let me say you've made some excellent points, so before
I shred them... ;-) let me explain that there might a prize for sticking
with me to the end...

> The important thing they have to realise is that data is all over
> the place (over cable, DSL, wifi, wimax, cell, paper mailing DVDs
> etc) and that you really want to encourage users to depend on your
> cell service for much data usage.  Otherwise users will go elsewhere.
> Note how people abandoned land lines in droves once they could.

There's an important diffrence however- cell companies only encouraged
(via lower rates, free N&W, etc.) high usage when they had the capacity for it.  Back in the analog (400 simultaneous phone calls per tower maximum!) days, rates were kept high to discourage "overuse."

With wireless data, there is still a severe capacity issue- they don't
really want us dumping our DSL and cable broadband to go 100% wireless.
Look at Verizon- they have the fastest and most expensive wireless data
in the US- 600kbps @ $80/month, and they have a 5GB/month transfer cap!
No one, except desperate folks outside the reach of traditional broadband
options would consider that as their primary internet source.


> Using Google Maps (or equivalent) as examples, they really should be
> encouraging people to use that on their phone in preference to other
> means as it makes the phone more valuable to the user.

True, but at a price point that makes sense to the carrier.  Other
carriers (Sprint, Cingular) sell data add-ons for $15-20/month.  If T-Mo
wants to undercut the market with a $6 plan, I'm all for it, but
realistically they probably need a $10-12 EDGE option to make it viable
for them, and not discourage the use of higher price-point plans.

> My point is that add-ons are what make the phones more valuable to the
> users, but by having them as addons, and especially disproportionately
> priced (voice data and SMS data are way more similar than Coke and
> steak) you put people in the position of having to decide if they want
> to use it, and looking at the money each time.

True, but this is a competitive marketplace.  The carriers (in their
minds) already hurt their industry with their "x minutes for y dollars"
war and don't want to make the same mistake with add-ons.  The first carrier to, say, give "1000 free SMS messages with all rate plans" forces the others to do something similar to compete, which negates the competitive advantage of being the first.  Net result- everyone retains the same number of customers yet loses all of their SMS revenue.

>  They are suffering from
> the same issues micropayments do.  See this essay (and the mental
> transaction costs link within):
>
> http://www.shirky.com/writings/fame_vs_fortune.html

I don't find that applicable here, because unlike the micropayments
essay, there are no "free" alternatives to mobile data to choose instead.
Carriers have no obligation, nor incentive to "give away" data, (unless
one of their competitors does first!)  Like my SMS example above, the
first one who does ruins it for everyone else!  

However, your micropayment link above actually helps describe what has
already happened to wireless data- it became "unlimited use" because of
customer confusion.  When AT&TWS first launched "m-Mode" wireless data
for your "m-Life" ("m" was for mobile, apparently!), on their then-new
GSM network, they offered a ridiculous number of rates plans- a 1MB plan
for $3 or 4 bucks, a 2MB plan, a 4, an 8, a 20, etc.  And the brochures
were packed with stupidly confusing charts detailing how many "average" e-
mails fit in a MB, how many WAP pages, etc.

Waaaaay too confusing for the average cellular customer, and way too
scary (at 3-cents a kb!) to go over your plan.  The net effect was that
nobody wanted an "m-Life" that one was afraid to actually use!

So, the plans that have caught on (at least so far as any data plan has
"caught on" in the USA!) are "unlimited use" plans like Sprint's Vision,
Cingular's MEdiaNet unlimited, or T-Mo's T-Zones/T-Mo Web- plans that you
can use withut counting KBs or MBs.  All of these plans have limitations
or restrictions on _how_ you can use them, or what they'll do, but they
don't have any "overage fee" surprises.  That's what customers don't want-
they want a price upfront that a feature will cost, then they can decide
if that amount is justified.


> Games on cell phones have already failed dismally because of the
> add-ons nature and the desire for short term revenue over making the
> phone more valuable.

I disagree.  Games have failed because mobile gaming is a piss-poor
substitute for "real" gaming, and the novelty wears off quick.  I've
owned Pocket PCs (and now a PPC phone) since they've existed, and the
game I still play the most is good ol' Solitare- the one that's been free
with every PPC since day one!  

If the "add-on model" is the reason for the failure of gaming, why have
ringtones been successful?  Same model, same stupid restrictions, and
roughly the same pricing.  

>Here is one link:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> somewhat of a market failure) produced twice the revenue for EA than
> all cell phone games worldwide! (3rd paragraph from end)
It also said, basically, that most mobile games stink.  That's a bigger
factor, IMHO.

> http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4822&Itemid=2&
limit=1&li
mitstart=2

> It will be interesting to see if Helio succeeds as they just offer a
> flat plan with unlimited everything and try to make your phone more
> valuable to you.  Or more accurately they do so if you live on MySpace.

LOL!  That's an interesting experiment.  Sprint is trying something
similar in certain test markets (coincidentally markets where Cricket or
MetroPCS offer flat-rate unlimited voice)- unlimited voice, text, picture
messaging and web for a flat fee.

> Interesting information on [SMS] popularity worldwide:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS#Popularity

Which kind of reinforces my original premise- Americans don't use (or,
frankly "need") SMS because voice calling is relatively cheap here.  In
countries where voice is expensive, SMS represents value, and tends to be
utilized more.  Here it's used by teens as the 21st-century equivalent of
passing notes around the classroom behind the teacher's back.  I can
secretly text my buddy in the back of the classroom, but couldn't call
him without getting caught!

> I have plenty of acceptable alternatives [to SMS], none
> of which have an incremental cost.

But be fair- is $5/month for a 400 message package really a barrier?  
What alternative (other than voice) is as mobile or convenient for you?
If $5/month is a "deal-breaker," then SMS isn't as useful or convenient
(to you or I) as you've expoused.  And if texting isn't worth a lousy
$5/month to the average person, mobile operators will have no interest in
making it more ubiquitous.  They're better off squeezing the text-
addicted for all they can bleed them for rather than expanding the market
by lowering rates.

(But stick with me- the "prize" at the end might net you free SMS!)

> > you could use a java based e-
> > mail client like reqwireless.com's "emailviewer."  
>
> Unfortunately they use signing as a revenue enhancing model which means
> you get prompted constantly on each network access.

That would kill automated e-mail retrieval, wouldn't it!  Is that
prompting a network thing, or a phone thing that could be fixed with a
SEEM edit?

> SMS has a network effect.  If your friends and family used it than you
> would too.

Perhaps, but unless T-Mo's total number of texts processed multiplied ten-
fold, 1-cent texting would be a revenue loss for them- not a gain.  (And,
frankly, even at 1-cent, my usual reply to a text would be the same as it
is now: "CALL ME!" ;-)

> Standard economics supply and demand curves.  I think they have just
> got themselves in the wrong place, just like the game link (theinquirer)
> above says about games.

Again, if that's true, explain the success of ringtones!  $2 to download
a 30-second clip of a song I can buy for $1 (if I don't already own it on
CD!) and not be able to transfer it to any different device.  Where do I
sign?  ;-)

> You did have to pay to have a [caller ID] display show anything.  
> That does have a network effect.  If your friends and family don't have
> a display then it won't matter to them if you send your callerid or not.

That's still not a "network effect," because my PURCHASE of caller-ID
service doesn't generate a purchase of caller-ID for anyone else.  My
refusal to purchase it doesn't reduce the usefulness of other's purchase
of it either.  (I think you were trying to say that if I use it myself,
I'm less likely to block my ID, increasing it's value to others.  But if
that's so, I still disagree, because nothing prevents me from purchasing
caller ID and still blocking my number from displaying on other's phones.)

>  Just like SMS (or cell phones themselves), the more other people do
> it in your circle, the more likely you are to do it because of the
> increased utility to everyone.

What are you, a communist?  ;-)  

Again, at least with SMS, carriers have tried a number of permutations- T-
Mo used to give the first 50 for free.  That didn't increase usage to the
"masses", so they went to 50-incoming for free and made you pay for
outgoing to generate revenue.  Still no "network effect" so they do the
same as other (USA)
carriers- try to maximize revenue by charging as much as possible
without squashing the relatively small amount of use there is.  That's
the same
playbook they're using for data.


> > There is NO company incentive to
> > increase usage on an unlimited account!
>
> That is true in a vacuum.  But there are other options such as email.
> The phone service has reliable delivery (especially compared to email)
> yet people abandoned landlines  for email.

I don't think so.  Many have abandoned landlines for wireless or VoIP,
perhaps, but no one-way communication like e-mail is a direct substitute
for the immediacy of two-way voice.


> > But you have a pay-per-call system there, do you not?
>
> Yes, caller pays.  However local calls were around 1 cent per minute so
>it was below a threshold where you were particularly concerned.

Doesn't that statement invalidate your whole premise?  Failure of
micropayments, "nickle and diming" of incremental costs, etc.?  ;-)

But, seriously, it reinforces why "free" caller ID makes sense there and
not here, since it might spur more phone usage, meaning more pennies.  
Here, it's a simple incremental revenue grab.  Like an all-you-can-eat
buffet restaurant that can't get additional revenue from offering more
food, landline phone companies can't get more revenue from people making
more calls- they have to offer more services, either in bundles or pay-
per-use.

> > In the US' unmetered system, what benefit to the landline carrier does
> > increasing usage have?
>
> They make the service more useful to customers compared to the
> alternatives.

They've already lost that battle to wireless and VoIP- all they have left
is quality and reliability!

>  And because people don't use it much, they don't get the network
> effect.

I'm not (and they're obviously not) convinced that effect is worthwhile
(to them) here.  

> A few years ago I wrote something so that you could send a barcode
> (number) to an email address from your phone and it responded with
> pricing and description information from Amazon.  Everyone who saw
> my demo wanted me to make a company out of that (not exactly original)
> idea!

Don't feel bad- it didn't work for Barpoint.com either. ;-)  (Barpoint
was part of the Cingular WAP deck on my first data-enabled phone: a Nokia
7160 TDMA phone that connected to the web with CSD at the blazing speed
of 14.4k!)

BTW, you aren't the MGopher guy, are you?  (In case you're not, I'll
quickly explain.)  About five or six years ago, someone wrote an app
primarily for their own use, but let anyone who wanted to use it, use it.
You sent an e-mail to him (via text- this was 2001 or 2002- "real" e-mail
hadn't come to phones yet) requesting info to type_of_info@mgopher.com-
like if you wanted local weather for Chicago, you sent "Chicago, Il" or a
zip code to
weather@mgopher.com and got a reply back to sender (your phone) within a
minute with that locations current weather.  You could get John Smith's
phone number and
address by sending "John Smith, Chicago, Il" to info@mgopher.com or the
current price of crap on ebay by sending "crap" to ebay@mgopher.com, etc.

IIRC, there were five catagories you could use the "mobile go-fer" for.
Brilliant app.  The guy should've taken it commercial.  That was a
service I actually used a few times per month (back when my first 50
texts were free) until I eventually upgraded to a Voicestream phone that
had a mobile
web browser built-in.

MGopher eventually stopped working, and my e-mails to the author bounced.
I assume he too eventually outgrew the need for his own service, but I
prefer to think someone like Google bought it from him for a gazillion
dollars and turned the idea into the current Google Alerts SMS reply
system. ;-)

> There is almost zero commerce around SMS in the US, but there could
> be *if* the carriers thought that way.  But to do it requires thinking
> differently and giving people reasons to use add-ons, rather than
> diming and diming at every possible opportuity to discourage usage.

Carriers will only be interested in
mobile commerce if they get a cut, and again, frankly, texting is not
prohibitively expensive here IF you buy a relatively low-priced bundle.
Lack of penny texting is not holding back "commerce over SMS."  A change
in mobile-phone user "culture" or a missing "killer app" holds back
widespread adoption of SMS.  Look at "American Idol" and the number of
idiots-- err, I mean fans, who'll pay a buck a vote on their phone when
they're at home watching on TV!  

> That is all true in the short term.  But in the long term I am more
> likely to go alternative services since the phone isn't compelling to
> me, basically only doing voice.

IF you can find someone offering better service.  (I'm not suggesting
that you can't- I'm just saying that's what it takes for anyone to
switch providers.)

There's a very old joke about two friends camping in the woods and a bear
comes into the camp.  They both lie still as to not antagonize the bear.
One of them carefully and slowly puts on his boots and prepares to run.
The other whispers "you're crazy- you can't outrun a bear!"  The first
guy tosses his buddy's boots into the woods, and whispers back "I don't
have to- I just have to outrun YOU!"  

The point is that T-Mo doesn't have to offer low cost data, penny
texting, or any other service at the price you or I deem "fair" or
"cheap"- they just have to be lower than their competition.  Currently, T-
Mo's data
is cheaper, their texting is cheaper, and their voice is cheaper.  We
have nowhere else to go essentially!

>  And if they put the intelligence in the network, they can ensure
> that usage matches plan options.

Agreed.  And I suspect that's where they're eventually headed, but I
think they just haven't figured out how to get there with the minimal
effort and expenditure.  Think about it- mobile data is such a low
priority to them that the "easiest" solution to a bug in Windows Mobile
MMS implementation was to open up free internet to all of their
subscribers for going on five months!  That's like a grocery store
deciding the solution to broken cash register is to simply stop charging
for groceries!  The only way T-Mo's solution can possibly make sense is
if the 25-cents they charge per MMS generates more revenue than sales of
mobile data!

> Personally I am a great fan of having base items bundled, just like
> caller id is on all carriers.  (If they made it $$ and optional I'd
> drop  it!)

As would I.  That's probably why I'm in the opposite camp as you- I'd
rather everything they offer was billed seperately and I was free to drop
unneeded services that I'm actually paying for even though it's "hidden"
in my total bill.  If so, I'd have my anytime voice minutes, (no free
weekends or mobile-to-mobile, no 3-way calling, no caller-ID, etc.) and
my $6 data, period.  

> If they included a certain amount of data, text messaging etc no matter
> what then it would encourage people to use those services a bit.
> And those people would then have the same effect on others (you reply
> to a SMS by sending one in reply!)

They used to- remember we all used to get 50 texts for free.  Obviously
that didn't work as a business model!

>  And people wouldn't call up customer service over one spam SMS in
> a month since it wouldn't be charged for. And others would find their
> phone compelling to keep if they ran Google Maps once a month
> (for free), as opposed to considering cheaper phones/plans such as
> the pre-paid tracfone and its ilk.

Perhaps.  Maybe they'll come to their senses one day... ;-)

One SMS option they haven't tried, but might make a decent option, either
on all rate plans or a special plan created for it would be to follow the
model some prepaid providers use- charge one voice minute for each text
send or received.  Most of us leave extra minutes on the table anyway, or
could use "free" minutes (M2M, N&W, etc.)  It'd use less bandwidth for the carrier than the voice minute it "replaced," eliminates the customer's "costs extra" objection, and possibly raises revenue by inticing one to move up to a higher level voice plan to cover potential overages.  It might make a viable option for the extra-cost adverse.


> But it doesn't really matter what we think.  I hope Tmo tries to make
> the phone and service more compelling to all its customers by thinking
> differently, rather than taking the approach all the other carriers did.
>
> Roger

Nice finish!  

Ok, you've indulged me by reading my lunatic rants and made it all the way to the end, so hopefully I have a perfectly legal and ethical "trick" you can use to get "free" texting.  I picked this up from a long-time T-Mo pro on HowardForums.com and it worked (eventually.)  

T-Mobile offers a set of plans called "National Business Plans" targeted at (you guessed it!) businesses.  They are similar to the regular plans ($39.99 for 600 anytime, free N&W, etc.) but unlike regular plans, they include 300-500 texts per month (depending on which level of plan you take.)

To "qualify" for one, you just con T-Mo's website into thinking you are a business, simply by loging into your account on my.t-mobile.com and selecting the MDA as your device (see "not your device?" in the top right hand corner?  Click it and tell the website you have an MDA instead of whatever phone it thinks you have.  Ironically, the MDA actually IS my phone.)  Now go to "change your plan" and, perhaps due to a sloppy programmer assuming only businesses buy MDAs, the National Business Plans should appear for selection, and not be asterisked (meaning they don't require a contract extension to select, like promotional plans do.)

Select the NBP that fits your minute-usage requirements and budget, and enjoy your included texts!  (Disclaimer #1: this worked for me two months ago when I moved from a regular plan to an NBP.  I've since switched to a myFaves family plan when I added a line for my wife two weeks ago.  I tried checking tonight to see if this "loophole" still works, but the website won't display individual plans if you're on a family plan, so I couldn't pull up the NBPs on my.t-mobile.com any longer.)

I'm sure you could bluster your way into an NBP without the website trick by calling customer service, but IIRC, they'll demand a one-year contract renewal if you call in for it.

Good luck, and hopefully that tip will have been worth reading my ramblings!

Have a good one!

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Roger Binns - 09 Mar 2007 05:14 GMT
> let me explain that there might a prize for sticking
> with me to the end...

There wasn't :-(  I am also on a myfaves family plan.

> With wireless data, there is still a severe capacity issue-

It isn't as constrained as voice.  For example it doesn't really matter
if some data takes 5 seconds to be received instead of 1.  And it
doesn't matter if you chop it into lots of smaller pieces.  In general
the constraint is the total aggregate throughput you have to supply per
second.  And being in the situation where customers are using your
services to the point of overloading them is far preferable to them not
using them at all.

> they don't
> really want us dumping our DSL and cable broadband to go 100% wireless.

I never said that.  What I did say is that they can make it part of your
data access, rather than a last resort.

> No one, except desperate folks outside the reach of traditional broadband
> options would consider that as their primary internet source.

You should read VZW's terms of service for the data package.  If you
follow them strictly then there is pretty much nothing useful you can do
with it.

>  The first carrier to, say, give "1000 free SMS messages with all rate plans" forces the others to do something similar to compete,

Well, Tmo did that with myfaves (technically I believe they were the
second carrier to do it).  They've just done that with voice rather than
data or sms as I'm sure many of us would like :-)

> I don't find that applicable here, because unlike the micropayments
> essay, there are no "free" alternatives to mobile data to choose instead.

Yes there is.  For the person I communicate with the most I have the
following options:

- landline
- cell
- IM
- email
- a note on the door
- waiting several hours

Oh and SMS.  All of the above have no incremental cost.  Sending a SMS
costs me 10c and them 10c.  (And the folks on VZW without text message
add ons now get to pay 15c per message!)

>  Carriers have no obligation, nor incentive to "give away" data, (unless
> one of their competitors does first!)  Like my SMS example above, the
> first one who does ruins it for everyone else!  

Car makers have no incentive to give away air conditioners.  The first
one who does ruins it for everyone else :-)

>> Games on cell phones have already failed dismally because of the
>> add-ons nature and the desire for short term revenue over making the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> game I still play the most is good ol' Solitare- the one that's been free
> with every PPC since day one!  

A lot of the simple games would work well on the phones.  Even solitaire
would be fine.  People aren't trying to have a "real" gaming experience
on their phone, but rather pass time etc.  And for those who do want the
real thing, there is always the Ngage :-)

> And if texting isn't worth a lousy
> $5/month to the average person, mobile operators will have no interest in
> making it more ubiquitous.  They're better off squeezing the text-
> addicted for all they can bleed them for rather than expanding the market
> by lowering rates.

But then why offer things like caller id for no incremental cost?
Eventually all services will be no incremental cost (it may take 10 or
20 years).  So do you hold back skimming off the cream, or do you rush
ahead and beat the pack, increasing your market share and being seen as
a leader?

>> Unfortunately they use signing as a revenue enhancing model which means
>> you get prompted constantly on each network access.
>
> That would kill automated e-mail retrieval, wouldn't it!

Java apps don't run in the background anyway so it is moot.  (Motorola
did define a way that they could, but then killed it).  There is a whole
"push" thing where you can define code to respond to SMS but I don't
know if that also requires signed apps.

> Is that
> prompting a network thing, or a phone thing that could be fixed with a
> SEEM edit?

It is firstly a Java thing in that apps have to be given permissions to
do things, then the spec which says what the defaults are (eg screen
access is fine by all, network access for unsigned should be prompted)
and finally what the carrier/handset manufacturer limits you to.  In
tmo/motorola case, they do not allow you to choose "always allow" for
unsigned apps.

I did try a kjava edit, but that had no effect.  I've not seen any seems
to change it either.

>  (And,
> frankly, even at 1-cent, my usual reply to a text would be the same as it
> is now: "CALL ME!" ;-)

You are extrapolating from a sample of yourself :-)

> Again, if that's true, explain the success of ringtones!

There is always a small minority who can be parted from their cash for
silly things.  And at those prices, the revenues would look non-trivial.

> That's still not a "network effect," because my PURCHASE of caller-ID
> service doesn't generate a purchase of caller-ID for anyone else.

I'd argue that it does.  If caller id is used extensively amongst your
contacts then your contacts are more likely to extensively use (and
purchase) it.

>  (I think you were trying to say that if I use it myself,
> I'm less likely to block my ID, increasing it's value to others.

Yes, that is a large part of it.

>  But if
> that's so, I still disagree, because nothing prevents me from purchasing
> caller ID and still blocking my number from displaying on other's phones.)

Correct.  But if your contacts all have caller id displays (and memory)
then you are less likely to block it.

Most people I know just blanket set their landlines to be restricted.
However not a single one of them does the same on their cell phones.

>>  Just like SMS (or cell phones themselves), the more other people do
>> it in your circle, the more likely you are to do it because of the
>> increased utility to everyone.
>
> What are you, a communist?  ;-)  

Good old capitalist!  That was just another way of saying the network
effect and ultimately it would provide the potential for more revenue
and services.

> Again, at least with SMS, carriers have tried a number of permutations- T-
> Mo used to give the first 50 for free.

I didn't know that.  It mostly makes my arguments moot that they should
try it :-)  I wonder why it "failed". Certainly one contributing factor
is the crummy UI on phones.  I once sent an SMS to a friend who denied
receiving it or that his phone had such functionality.  Of course it
did, and I managed to find it in the UI but it wasn't remotely user
friendly.

> I don't think so.  Many have abandoned landlines for wireless or VoIP,
> perhaps, but no one-way communication like e-mail is a direct substitute
> for the immediacy of two-way voice.

Two way voice requires the attention of both ends at the same time.  In
that respect it is expensive to people to use (their time).  I certainly
expect it to decrease slowly over time.  (How many people complain that
their lives are becoming less busy and that they can drop everything at
any time of day to participate in a call at the same time as someone
else does likewise?)

>>> But you have a pay-per-call system there, do you not?
>> Yes, caller pays.  However local calls were around 1 cent per minute so
>> it was below a threshold where you were particularly concerned.
>
> Doesn't that statement invalidate your whole premise?  Failure of
> micropayments, "nickle and diming" of incremental costs, etc.?  ;-)

I said "diming and diming".  I believe that they have dropped
incremental costs for many calls in the UK now, but it has been a while
since I was there.

Also note one slight difference with micropayments.  The larger
micropayment problem was that it is with many providers.  ie if you read
a single article in twenty different online newspapers then you'd have
20 different micropayments to 20 different entities to make.

When you are only paying one vendor (the carrier) then there is a
threshold at which you don't care.  eg if phone calls where 1/100 cents
per minute you really wouldn't care.  At 10 dollars per minute you
would.  I don't know where that threshold is for SMS for the general
customer base.  I think 10c per message is above the "line" and 1c is below.

> Don't feel bad- it didn't work for Barpoint.com either. ;-)  

I'm fully aware of barpoint.  Sadly they hold several patents on rather
obvious things, but but it means that anyone trying to do something
similar will have to pay them off, or pay lawyers when they sue.  It
imposes a nasty tax on doing mobile information business similar to what
they were doing.

But one of the biggest reasons they failed is their business model.
They tried to make money by commissions on sales.  Consequently as a
customer you couldn't trust them to have your best interests at heart.
Would they show you the item cheaper somewhere else if they made less
money?  The situation was very analogous to search engines where they
all pandered to the advertisers, until Google came along and showed you
can put user needs first and earn their trust.  Heck Google even had a
system where they pull poorly performing ads, something none of the
other search engines did.

> BTW, you aren't the MGopher guy, are you?

Nope.  But you describe is somewhat similar to what I was trying to do.
 (There is a lot more to it, but one of friends keeps trying to turn it
into a business).

> The point is that T-Mo doesn't have to offer low cost data, penny
> texting, or any other service at the price you or I deem "fair" or
> "cheap"- they just have to be lower than their competition.  Currently, T-
> Mo's data
> is cheaper, their texting is cheaper, and their voice is cheaper.  We
> have nowhere else to go essentially!

They can also be "better".  Walmart is having trouble because they went
the route of only doing cheap.  And now shoppers are going elsewhere
because other things also matter to them.

> Think about it- mobile data is such a low priority to them

Then why are they building some fancy new 3G network at several billion
dollars?

> One SMS option they haven't tried, but might make a decent option, either
> on all rate plans or a special plan created for it would be to follow the
> model some prepaid providers use- charge one voice minute for each text
> send or received.

Well a fraction of a voice minute would be more appropriate.  But it is
an excellent idea.  It would certainly work for me.  And it highlights
that the phone is for communication, whether it be voice or text.

Roger
Todd Allcock - 09 Mar 2007 07:14 GMT
> >  The first carrier to, say, give "1000 free SMS messages with all
> > rate plans" forces the others to do something similar to compete,
>
> Well, Tmo did that with myfaves (technically I believe they were the
> second carrier to do it).  They've just done that with voice rather
> than data or sms as I'm sure many of us would like :-)

Actually, Alltel (the first carrier to do it- they offer 10 numbers of
free calls with their "my Faves"-like plan) also gives free SMS to the 10
numbers as well, I believe.

> But then why offer things like caller id for no incremental cost?

Perhaps it started as an upgrade incentive, and competition made it
"standard."  I was a SBMS (eventually Cingular) dealer in the late 90's
when they converted from analog to TDMA digital.  In order to help
convince customers to migrate to digital, they offered a few extra
minutes on digital plans plus extra "digital
features" like caller ID.

> Eventually all services will be no incremental cost (it may take 10
> or 20 years).  So do you hold back skimming off the cream, or do you
> rush ahead and beat the pack, increasing your market share and being
> seen as a leader?

The problem is that the market reacts quickly, and a large percentage of
customers are under contract reducing their abilty to jump ship quickly.
Before the first "free SMS" carrier gained
any reasonable market share, the competition would match it and steal
their thunder.

(I even read a rumor that T-Mo had the "myFaves" idea first, but Alltel
managed to implement it more quickly and debuted their version before T-
Mo!)


> > T-Mo used to give the first 50 for free.
>
> I didn't know that.  It mostly makes my arguments moot that they should
> try it :-)

Yes and no.  You could argue that they offered the free SMS before the
market had matured.  Or that the fact that other carriers not offering
free SMS lessened the network effect.

> I wonder why it "failed". Certainly one contributing factor
> is the crummy UI on phones.  I once sent an SMS to a friend who denied
> receiving it or that his phone had such functionality.  Of course it did,

> and I managed to find it in the UI but it wasn't remotely user friendly.

My older phones handled it far easier than my last few, but the older
phones had fewer features and menus to "lose" an SMS in!

> Two way voice requires the attention of both ends at the same time.  In
> that respect it is expensive to people to use (their time).

True, but voicemail solves that, and Cingular (with the Apple iPhone)
will have "random access" voicemail this summer, which will make
voicemail more e-mail/SMS-like.

> I don't know where that threshold is for SMS for the general customer
> base.  I think 10c per message is above the "line" and 1c is below.

Judging by the fact that SMS prices have been slowly rising, I'd guess
carriers are still figuring out where the line is.  (Although I'm with you,

personally.  At 5-cents I used it a little because it was faster than
composing a short e-mail, at a dime I'll take the extra few seconds to
send the e-mail!)


> > BTW, you aren't the MGopher guy, are you?
>
> Nope.  But you describe is somewhat similar to what I was trying to do.
> (There is a lot more to it, but one of friends keeps trying to turn it
> into a business).

Good luck!  I still believe SMS, in the US, anyway, is looking for the
killer app it needs to gain widespread adoption.  I hope it's yours!


> > We have nowhere else to go essentially!
>
> They can also be "better".  Walmart is having trouble because they went
> the route of only doing cheap.  And now shoppers are going elsewhere
> because other things also matter to them.

True- I think they're trying to do it different ways, like with myFaves,
and a very agressive pre-paid program.  It'd be nice if they extended it
to SMS and data.

> > Think about it- mobile data is such a low priority to them
>
> Then why are they building some fancy new 3G network at several billion
> dollars?

IMHO, mostly to keep up with the Joneses- these days it's a necessity to
keep corporate accounts, and also, perhaps, for future expansion.  As
VoIP continues to go mobile I suspect T-Mo might use their 3G spectrum
for VoIP, like they're using DSL/cable VoIP in their "@home" plans.

> Well a fraction of a voice minute would be more appropriate.

Based on data transfered, yes, but based on current pricing, no!  ;-)

> But it is
> an excellent idea.  It would certainly work for me.  And it highlights
> that the phone is for communication, whether it be voice or text.

Agreed.  In lieu of that, a rate plan with fewer minutes but lots of
texts might find a niche today as well.  (T-Mo used to offer a $29.99
"Talk 'n Text" plan which had 250 minutes and 250 texts, IIRC- maybe it
was 200 minutes/300 SMS.)
PDA Man - 09 Mar 2007 15:42 GMT
Todd,
They actually had 3 versions of  the $29.95 Talk n Text Plan.
Originally was 200 Voice with 300 TEXT Messages and 30 MMS including TZONES
and Unlitd Weekends
Then it was 250 with 300 TEXT Messages and 30 MMS including TZONES and
Unlitd Weekends and then the last version before it was Grandfathered had
300 Anytime Min with 300 TEXT, 30 MMS and TZONES.and Unlitd Weekends

The TZONES was originally 1 MEG of WAP Bucket and was Grandfathered to
Unlimited Access to WAP when all the other Measured WAP Plans went unlimited
TZONES.

I have the 250 Talk n TEXT version and it cant be beat (well if you were
lucky and got the 300 Voice Bucket of course LOL), as long as the voice
minutes works for you. Fortunately I was lucky and got a CSR to find the SOC
code and give me that plan way after it was Grandfathered and couldnt force
the issue  I was happy to get the 250 voice min plan and have never even
come close anyway.

>> >  The first carrier to, say, give "1000 free SMS messages with all
>> > rate plans" forces the others to do something similar to compete,
[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
> "Talk 'n Text" plan which had 250 minutes and 250 texts, IIRC- maybe it
> was 200 minutes/300 SMS.)
Todd Allcock - 09 Mar 2007 17:55 GMT
> Todd,
> They actually had 3 versions of  the $29.95 Talk n Text Plan.

Thaks.  I'd forgotten about the included T-Zones!  I'd take that plan in
a heartbeat!  Even though I occasionally go over 250 minutes, I could
switch to my TMo2Go prepaid backup for those months!

I wonder if grandfathered plans survive a change-of-responsibility
transfer.  If so, you could probably sell your _account_ on eBay if/when
you're finished with it!  ;-)
Roger Binns - 15 Mar 2007 03:46 GMT
>> I wonder why it "failed". Certainly one contributing factor
>> is the crummy UI on phones.  I once sent an SMS to a friend who denied
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> My older phones handled it far easier than my last few, but the older
> phones had fewer features and menus to "lose" an SMS in!

The UI on the RAZR's really sucks.  For some unfathomable reason they
have functionality so that you can reorder items etc, but noone sat down
and worked out how to make it sensible in the first place.  I like to
point people who have anything to do with user interfaces to this article:

 http://cooper.com/articles/art_goal_directed_design.htm

I suspect it is banned at Motorola!

>> Two way voice requires the attention of both ends at the same time.  In
>> that respect it is expensive to people to use (their time).
>
> True, but voicemail solves that, and Cingular (with the Apple iPhone)
> will have "random access" voicemail this summer, which will make
> voicemail more e-mail/SMS-like.

Here is a simple use case where that doesn't help and where SMS really
does.  (Taken from a true story :-)  You and your partner leave work as
somewhat variable times each day (eg anywhere between 5 and 7).  Whoever
gets home first makes dinner.  But you want it to be ready when the
other person arrives.  The simple solution is to send a text message
when you leave.  If the other person is in a meeting or otherwise
engaged, it doesn't disturb and they don't have to call voicemail later
just to find out you left!

> Good luck!  I still believe SMS, in the US, anyway, is looking for the
> killer app it needs to gain widespread adoption.  I hope it's yours!

I don't think it will happen.  Personally I hope the US carriers suffer
until they get a clue.

>> Well a fraction of a voice minute would be more appropriate.
>
> Based on data transfered, yes, but based on current pricing, no!  ;-)

I don't think 1 sms = 1 voice minute would fly.  More like 3 or 5 sms
equals 1 voice minute.

I'd hope they would realise they are in the communication business and
not try to arbitrarily segment that communication.

Roger
Todd Allcock - 15 Mar 2007 08:49 GMT
> I don't think 1 sms = 1 voice minute would fly.  More like 3 or 5
> sms equals 1 voice minute.

It's all about the marketing and keeping it simple- for example, I could
picture a "1000 minutes or messages plan" for x# of dollars.  A minutes-
to-messages "conversion chart" would complicate that.

> I'd hope they would realise they are in the communication business
> and not try to arbitrarily segment that communication.

That would be nice, but I suspect they'll be charging for SMS for quite a
while yet...
Todd Allcock - 04 Mar 2007 03:35 GMT
> My good old t-zones $4.99 is back to where it was a week ago. Exchange
> sync, wap browsing, most internet stuff and pop3 all working on my T-
> mobile SDA.

What did you lose in the "Security Patch"?  POP/IMAP, Exchange sync, and
browsing always worked for me on T-Zones.

I lost usenet access for a couple of days over T-Zones, but it's back for
the time being.

> I'm happy. For now.

I suspect you'll stay happy.  Even when they clamp down again, e-mail and
browsing will still work...
 
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