Yep, goods must be fit for purpose at the point they were sold to you - and
thanks to new EU regulations, the onus is on the retailer to prove this for
the first six months, which means you don't need to supply evidence other
than a list of faults.

Benedict.

The supply of the handset and the sale of a contract are two seperate
things, with two (usually) different suppliers

I guess they could take back the handset and refund what you paid
(even nothing) and you'd still be liable for the term of the contract.

Pretty unlikely as it's a good will thing but possible,

MA formulated on Thursday :

I have had no problems with my N80 either, not on Orange, but O2.

Yep, I can add my name to the list of happy Nokia N80 owners on Orange.
Apart from the occasional freeze up and reboot I have had no real
problems with the phone.

I'm seeing the same as everyone else - take your pick of topics from:
http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/discussions/search?submitted=true&type=message&q=
orange+bugs+n80&page_size=20&index=public#search_results

On the basis that it is clearly evident I have refused a replacement
which will only exibit the same issues - as it's the same firmware.

It's actually not just Orange users (Three or 3, O2 & Voda too).
Clearly proving beyond all doubt that the new software is needed.

Nokia's stance is that the networks won't allow the handset to be
flashed with generic, as you'll loose all network support/replacement.
Nokia are also cracking down on service centres doing this, and
removing their ability to support Nokia handsets if caught.  There has
been talk on Nokia Forum that this practice will also invalidate your
Nokia warranty - so not something many (including me) which to do.

The phone was purchased on upgrade from an Orange shop (so essentially
direct from Orange) and is less than 4 months old.  It was purchased 2
days after launch on Orange, and was withdrawn by Orange (and some
other networks) nearly a month ago.

Orange Cust services give the N80 little care now it's discontinued,
and emailing the Executive Office (which I have the email address for)
simply goes unanswered for anyone who's tried to raise this at senior
level.

Bottom line appears to be Orange don't give a flying f*** about the
thousands of customers they've sold the N80 to.  They're happy to move
around handsets, but that will never fix the problem.

So how can I/we get some results with our networks and get them to take
some degree of responsibilty for resolving the issue?

One user on Nokia forum has an email from exec office at orange clearly
stating they will not approved any updates to firmware after 3.617 as
they've discontinued it.  On that basis what section of law will apply?
I'm getting conflicting answers reagrdingb whether the SoGA applies.

I'm seeing the same as everyone else - take your pick of topics from:
http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/discussions/search?submitted=true&type=message&q=
orange+bugs+n80&page_size=20&index=public#search_results

On the basis that it is clearly evident I have refused a replacement
which will only exibit the same issues - as it's the same firmware.

It's actually not just Orange users (Three or 3, O2 & Voda too).
Clearly proving beyond all doubt that the new software is needed.

Nokia's stance is that the networks won't allow the handset to be
flashed with generic, as you'll loose all network support/replacement.
Nokia are also cracking down on service centres doing this, and
removing their ability to support Nokia handsets if caught.  There has
been talk on Nokia Forum that this practice will also invalidate your
Nokia warranty - so not something many (including me) which to do.

The phone was purchased on upgrade from an Orange shop (so essentially
direct from Orange) and is less than 4 months old.  It was purchased 2
days after launch on Orange, and was withdrawn by Orange (and some
other networks) nearly a month ago.

Orange Cust services give the N80 little care now it's discontinued,
and emailing the Executive Office (which I have the email address for)
simply goes unanswered for anyone who's tried to raise this at senior
level.

Bottom line appears to be Orange don't give a flying f*** about the
thousands of customers they've sold the N80 to.  They're happy to move
around handsets, but that will never fix the problem.

So how can I/we get some results with our networks and get them to take
some degree of responsibilty for resolving the issue?

One user on Nokia forum has an email from exec office at orange clearly
stating they will not approved any updates to firmware after 3.617 as
they've discontinued it.  On that basis what section of law will apply?
I'm getting conflicting answers reagrdingb whether the SoGA applies.

This is the avenue my brother pursued, also with a Nokia, a little while
ago.  Of course, judging by the people who *are* happy with the handset (it
can't be 100% that are faulty), there's a chance you might get one you can
use happily...

Jim! wrote on 19/10/2006 :

Surely not if you buy your phone from Orange's website. If you buy it
from a shop then your recourse would be with the shop as well surely.

<snip>

In which case, either those people are misreporting what they have
told Trading Standards, or Trading Standards are giving very duff
advice.

The *retailer* is responsible under SOGA, not the manufacturer of the
handset, nor the network provider.

If you bought direct from Orange, then they *are* responsible for both
handset and network.

If you bought from a shop, then the shop are responsible for both.

You will sometimes find that the shop are acting as agents for the
network supplier, in which case the shop will usually only be
responsible for the handset, unless they are acting as agents for the
whole package,when Orange will be.

Simply not true, if you have paid any money for a phone and contract you
are paying for the phone. If they give the phone to you free then it may
be slightly more complicated. But the lump sum you pay up front is to
take away the phone, monthly charges are for airtime. The phone may be
heavily discounted by the network operator, but you still pay for it.
Therefore the sale of goods act must apply. I have a feeling that even
if it is given to you free they still have certain obligations, but I
could be wrong on that.