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Cellular Phone Forum / Country Specific / UK Group / November 2006Cancelled Contract - Return Phone
Hi Phone bought form Vodafone store for £150. £150 refund given at store managers discretion. Vodafone have screwed up my billing every single month resulting in my having to contact them numerous times on each occasion to get the bill corrected. They have given me various freebies as a result of their errors (free TV, free data and sms, extended 75% discount line rental etc). All very nice but the hassles of having to contact them each month (because they have tried to charge me for TV or not applied the 75% discount etc) has really pissed me off and stressed me out. I have told them I want to cancel the contract. I do not want to pay the charges to the end of my contract They have agreed to this. Exact wording: "Having shown your email records to my manager she has agreed to cancel your account with no penalties attached, all I need you to do is return the hand set". OK so far so good but I want to keep the phone. I want to keep it without giving Vodafone any more money. In a following email they have said I have to return it or pay them £410. "The full handset price would be required if you wish to keep it. The cost of the Nokia N91 would be £410. Alternatively the handset would need to be returned in it's original condition packaged in the original packaging and accessories that went with it." Now the way I read the first email is returning the handset is not a requirement. I can also see nothing in my contract that states I need to do this (the contract appears to be for airtime only). They "need" me to return the handset. Does not state it is a requirement of canceling my contract (at least how I read it). I want rid of Vodafone. I want to keep the phone. I don't want to pay Vodafone any money. They have caused me enough stress, inconvenience and wasted time without my paying them for the privilege. I have been emailing the CEO? (Arun Sarin) and Vodafone Stoke Customer Relations but they are adamant I must pay for or return the handset. I am prepared (and already expect to have to) to take this to court if they do not relent. Thoughts?  SignatureMany thanks PajaP > "Having shown your email records to my manager she has agreed to > cancel your account with no penalties attached, all I need you to do [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > me to return the handset. Does not state it is a requirement of > canceling my contract (at least how I read it). How can you translate the words "all I need you to do is to return the handset" into you get a free phone? Granted, you seem to have had an absolute mare with voda and do warrant the contract been cancelled, no arguments there. But, you are definatly taking the pee to expect to keep the phone. Voda are prepared to re-instate your position before you had the contract to the position you were before you signed. That position was you were not contracted to pay them money for services and you were NOT in the posesion of a shiney new phone. Cut your losses and run. Of course, you could ask for compensation in the form of a free phone for all the troubles but dont hold your breath. Steve >> "Having shown your email records to my manager she has agreed to >> cancel your account with no penalties attached, all I need you to do [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >How can you translate the words "all I need you to do is to return the >handset" into you get a free phone? Free? Maybe some more details. I don't see it as being a free phone (though as I have paid no money directly for it...). I have spent a total of over 4 hours on the phone to them. Nearly 100 hundred emails. This has taken many hours of my free time.Time to me is money, if it ain't pleasure. On many occasions I also had to contact them as they were sending numerous spam (advert) emails to my phone on a daily basis. This was almost from immediately I first turned the phone on. Each time I contacted them they said they would stop sending them. Still they arrived. Again more of my free time lost. In the end I had to get them to change the number (which they did for free). They claim they do not understand how they were arriving on my phone. Their was nothing on their system that could be sending them. But they were all advertising Vodafone services. All from numbers that they admitted were from their systems. As a result of the number change I had to reprint all my stationary at my own expense. Not a great amount but enough for me to be pissed. I also had to let all my contacts know of my new phone number. Again eating into my free time (and expense as not covered by any free/inclusive text bundle at the time). I don't see the phone as being free. I see it as compensation. I also do not see the phone as being part of the contract. My contract was for the airtime. The deal I negotiated in the store should not come into it. The phone was separate. No contract involved. My contract with Vodafone does not mention the phone. Just airtime. >Granted, you seem to have had an absolute mare with voda and do warrant the >contract been cancelled, no arguments there. > >But, you are definatly taking the pee to expect to keep the phone. Maybe it could be interpreted that way. What if the £150 in store had not been refunded to me by the manager? Would they be deducting this off the £410? What about the money I have already paid them for shite service. Should this not come off the £410? Who knows? but somehow I doubt it. >Voda are prepared to re-instate your position before you had the contract to >the position you were before you signed. That position was you were not >contracted to pay them money for services and you were NOT in the posesion >of a shiney new phone. Not quite. I will be without a phone. I sold my old phone at a loss. This is on top of stationary and other costs. They promised me something they could not deliver. If they had kept their end of the bargain I would be happy. >Cut your losses and run. Never ;) >Of course, you could ask for compensation in the form of a free phone for >all the troubles but dont hold your breath. I think they will give up before I do. And the more time I spend on this, the more determined I become. Thanks for the feedback SignaturePajaP >>> "Having shown your email records to my manager she has agreed to >>> cancel your account with no penalties attached, all I need you to do [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > should not come into it. The phone was separate. No contract involved. > My contract with Vodafone does not mention the phone. Just airtime. It is rocky ground I believe when you end up with a free phone from day one. If I understand correctly, you were supposed to pay £150 but you managed to get it for free? Since you never paid for the phone itself... well, it gets a bit shady, I think. You don't have a sales contract for the phone itself.. >>Granted, you seem to have had an absolute mare with voda and do warrant >>the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > service. Should this not come off the £410? > Who knows? but somehow I doubt it. Nothing in their T&Cs really says that you 'deserve' compensation for the crappy service, with regard to what happened to you. Even then you did get it - freebies and such (which, admittedly they consequently screwed up). SignatureSue >> I don't see the phone as being free. I see it as compensation. >> I also do not see the phone as being part of the contract. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > well, it gets a bit shady, I think. You don't have a sales contract for > the phone itself.. Hmm, thinking about it. Do you have any record of 'purchase' of the phone? An invoice, even if the phone is marked as free? I just upgraded and I did get an invoice with the phone even though the handset was free on it, but I'm sure my having that invoice effectively says that I 'purchased' the phone, even though it was for £0.00? Thus that is the contract? You can't have it all ways - you can't say that your contract with Vodafone is for the airtime and not the phone and thus cancelling the airtime agreement means a free phone... I mean, your problem is with the airtime - all the issues you had - spamming, incorrect billing etc., not the phone, which I assume works perfectly well. Yes, you have managed to get out of the airtime contract with Vodafone but why should they let you keep a high-end handset at their expense? You'll be without a phone, yes. But what service do you intend to use with the N91? Why not just take out another contract elsewhere? Meh.. ah well, I'm a shop manager myself. The amount of people we get who want to get free stuff is ridiculous - take the woman who came back and said that her USB Memory Stick had 'mysteriously stopped working' and she demanded a refund. It was, of course, soaking wet. SignatureSue >> It is rocky ground I believe when you end up with a free phone from day >> one. If I understand correctly, you were supposed to pay £150 but you [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >invoice effectively says that I 'purchased' the phone, even though it was >for £0.00? Thus that is the contract? I have the store receipt which has: Nokia N91 £150.00 Various lines with contract, sim details....... (no prices associated with them) Managers Discretion -£150.00 Total £0.00 >You can't have it all ways - you can't say that your contract with Vodafone >is for the airtime and not the phone and thus cancelling the airtime [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >airtime contract with Vodafone but why should they let you keep a high-end >handset at their expense? I see this but Vodafone have had some money off me over the last 6 months. I have had a service that I have barely used (maybe 10 minutes a month out of the allocated 350) because I was so pissed at them. All I have had is time, trouble, stress and expense. Why should Vodafone be the only ones to gain out of this. Why should I lose out. If I (and people in general) do not make a stand what is there to make them (Vodafone and other companies with poor service) improve? They should lose any rights to the phone (though I still say it was _given_ to me for free at the time I purchased the airtime). Admit they were in the wrong and put it down to experience. They admit they have made errors. Continued to make errors after promising me they were fixed. I just checked my account and it has a £10 charge for TV still for this months bill. On the 16 October, in reply to my initial query about this, Emma Pilgrim of Vodafone customer relations said she had removed this charge (not would remove, but had removeD). It is till there. So is she a liar? Incompetent? Whatever it has resulted in costing me more time and stress. I have had to email them again. I expect there will be a few more days of emailing them before it is resolved. Just in time for the next bill to come in wrong. I expect some smart arse at Vodafone will email me again saying the TV is not free and asking me to send them a copy of my contract. Yep this has happened. They have accused me of lying about my contract. Surely they should know the details of my contract. Note this is just a typical bill. I have not had a correct bill yet and each one takes several email and phone calls before it is corrected. They made the screwups so why should I give them my time for free? If I return the phone (which I still see as being my property) I have to make alternative arrangements for copying and then storing the data that it contains. Spend time emailing other companies getting the software transferred to another phone. Why should I be made to do this because Vodafone are incompetent? >You'll be without a phone, yes. But what service do you intend to use with >the N91? Why not just take out another contract elsewhere? Well I thought I might use a PAYG sim for a while. >Meh.. ah well, I'm a shop manager myself. The amount of people we get who >want to get free stuff is ridiculous - take the woman who came back and said >that her USB Memory Stick had 'mysteriously stopped working' and she >demanded a refund. It was, of course, soaking wet. LOL, I am not that bad. But if something does not work I will take it back, every time. If a service is bad I will complain, every time. I can forgive and forget occasional bad service but not the level I have received from Vodafone. Thanks for taking the time to reply. It is appreciated. Replies so far have nearly persuaded me to just return the phone but I just don't see why Vodafone should get away with treating a customer so badly. I don't think they have any legal right to the phone. If they can show me a legal agreement that I have to return the phone then I will do so (this I have told them). SignatureThanks PajaP >>> It is rocky ground I believe when you end up with a free phone from day >>> one. If I understand correctly, you were supposed to pay £150 but you [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > months. I have had a service that I have barely used (maybe 10 minutes > a month out of the allocated 350) because I was so pissed at them. That's your decision though - they provided a service but it was your decision not to use it to its potential. > All I have had is time, trouble, stress and expense. > Why should Vodafone be the only ones to gain out of this. Why should I > lose out. If I (and people in general) do not make a stand what is > there to make them (Vodafone and other companies with poor service) > improve? Personally though, I've found Vodafone to be the best service provider to date that I have used. I was impressed with their shop service and their dedication to finding me a tariff that suited my needs. I've been impressed with services like Passport and Stop the Clock and the flexibility I had with regard to changing my tariff (can do it a bit earlier than other networks) and never had a problem myself with billing. I decide to leave after a totally uninspiring upgrade offer and a rude customer service rep and a few days later they make me an offer I can't refuse... The idea is that you pay Vodafone for a service. You received that service, though it was messed up, and they offered compensation for those errors. They have agreed to let you cancel the contract early and pay no fee (again, consider this compensation perhaps, because ordinarily you sign a contract and have to pay the full amount regardless...). How long has this saga been going on? Why should Vodafone lose £410 to you? > They should lose any rights to the phone (though I still say it was > _given_ to me for free at the time I purchased the airtime). Admit > they were in the wrong and put it down to experience. They admitted they were wrong by offering compensation in your contract and allowing you to cancel early. There is no reason that they should lose any rights to the phone, IMO. > They admit they have made errors. Continued to make errors after > promising me they were fixed. I just checked my account and it has a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > They made the screwups so why should I give them my time for free? But the screwups were on the contract. There is no fault with the phone. They have no obligation to give it to you for free or anything like that. > If I return the phone (which I still see as being my property) I have > to make alternative arrangements for copying and then storing the data > that it contains. Quite how you see it as your property bemuses me... the handsets are subsidised. It becomes your property at the end of the contract. Until then you are only 'borrowing' it or 'renting' it or something like that. The phone is Vodafone's property until the contract is completed, which it will not be, hence, it is their property. I suppose you could perhaps argue that if you pay for the phone over the course of 12 months effectively, I don't know the legal ins and outs of ownership with regard to this but, you could say you have paid a certain amount toward a phone you are not keeping? Maybe you would be entitled to some compensation there? Just a theory.. > Spend time emailing other companies getting the software transferred > to another phone. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > If they can show me a legal agreement that I have to return the phone > then I will do so (this I have told them). You need to get them to send you or show you something that proves that they own the phone. AFAIK, you don't own it until the end of a contract which you won't reach :\ SignatureSue >How long has this saga been >going on? Why should Vodafone lose £410 to you? 6 months. Not had a correct bill yet. This they admit (after initially accusing me of lying about the contract terms). They do not lose £410. They sold me the phone for £150. They chose the price. The store manger waived this £150 at his discretion. They were expecting me to keep the contract for 18 months. They have admitted to messing up my account and have said they will end the contract early with no penalty. The way I see it they have no right to claim ownership of my phone. That is a penalty! >They admitted they were wrong by offering compensation in your contract and >allowing you to cancel early. There is no reason that they should lose any >rights to the phone, IMO. I have the store receipt that shows my ownership of the phone. When Vodafone can show me a contract the phone is theirs they can have it back. >But the screwups were on the contract. There is no fault with the phone. >They have no obligation to give it to you for free or anything like that. There is nothing in the contract that states there are allowed to be screwups in the billing. Plenty about providing me with service but owing to the nature of mobile telecommunications it is impossible to provide a fault free service. IMO this does not cover billing screwups. There have been times during my contract when I have not had service. I accept this. >Quite how you see it as your property bemuses me... the handsets are >subsidised. It becomes your property at the end of the contract. Until >then you are only 'borrowing' it or 'renting' it or something like that. >The phone is Vodafone's property until the contract is completed, which it >will not be, hence, it is their property. Nope, nothing in the contract about me borrowing or renting it. Nothing about it being Vodafone's phone. In fact the contract is quite the opposite: 1) Definitions b) you or your means the customer named on the order form 3) The services a) we aim to connect 'your' mobile device..... d) when 'your' mobile device is connected.... And plenty more lines referring to the phone as being mine. Nothing that states it is Vodafone's. Nothing that states it is loaned, hired, borrowed or is only mine once the contract is completed. The only physical thing they claim ownership of in the contract is the sim card. They can have this back. >You need to get them to send you or show you something that proves that they >own the phone. AFAIK, you don't own it until the end of a contract which >you won't reach :\ The end of the contract is reached when they end it. They have ended it. They have sent me a PAC. Though they screwed this up by saying it expired the day before they sent it. Obviously a typo but I still had to email them to confirm this. Which they did. The contract ends when I use the PAC. I can find nothing anywhere that states the phone is not mine already and from day 1. I have a sales receipt for the phone. They have a legal right to make me pay for the air time contract. They have waived this right by sending me the PAC and stating I can leave without penalty. They have no legal right to the phone. Unless they can prove otherwise. SignatureThanks PajaP >>How long has this saga been >>going on? Why should Vodafone lose £410 to you? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with no penalty. The way I see it they have no right to claim > ownership of my phone. That is a penalty! Look, you're not gonna get to keep the phone. The angle you're coming at this at is incorrect, you're lucky that they're letting you disconnect. Most networks are complete tossers when it comes to early cancellation of contract without penalty. I'm aware you've used up your own 'free' time to pursue getting things sorted every month, but that's just unlucky. You're out of the contract, send the phone back, get another. >> How long has this saga been >> going on? Why should Vodafone lose £410 to you? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with no penalty. The way I see it they have no right to claim > ownership of my phone. That is a penalty! The phone costs £410. The retailer (including Vodafone stores) gets paid a commission for selling you the contract. This commission is then used to subsidise the handset. In this case, by reducing the handset price by £260. The commission is based on you paying £30 (or whatever) for 18 months. You are correct - they have absolutely no right to claim ownership of your phone. However, they do have the absolute right to enforce the remaining 12 months of your contract. You however have the right to cancel your contract by paying the remaining months, or by accepting their offer of goodwill and handing back the handset. It's an "either, or" decision - it's not pick and mix. >> They admitted they were wrong by offering compensation in your contract and >> allowing you to cancel early. There is no reason that they should lose any [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > When Vodafone can show me a contract the phone is theirs they can have > it back. As I said, it's yours, but they're not going to cancel the contract early unless you return it. They're not legally required to cancel the contract early, so it's your choice to voluntarily return the phone. D >Personally though, I've found Vodafone to be the best service provider to >date that I have used. I was impressed with their shop service and their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >after a totally uninspiring upgrade offer and a rude customer service rep >and a few days later they make me an offer I can't refuse... I would add that as telephony service I was happy with Vodafone also. I have not posted here with the intention of lambasting Vodafone's telephony services. More to gather opinion on peoples opinion on phone ownership. It is their billing system I have a gripe with and customer services to some extent. I have found their TV offering to be far superior quality to the orange TV service. I get better network reception with Vodafone than I do with any other operators. In really old buildings with thick walls my Vodafone phone still has a strong signal, long after Orange and other networks have given up. 3G coverage is good and speed acceptable. I was happy with my tariff and the additional features they added as compensation. I would still be willing to stay if they had not continually messed up my bills. I was considering moving other contracts to Vodafone (though obviously I won't be now). To me though, the hassles with contacting them continuously to resolve billing issues were too much. SignaturePajaP [snip] > Quite how you see it as your property bemuses me... the > handsets are subsidised. It becomes your property at the > end of the contract. Until then you are only 'borrowing' > it or 'renting' it or something like that. The phone is > Vodafone's property until the contract is completed, > which it will not be, hence, it is their property. I think you'll find that most contracts contain a clause that specifically excludes the handset itself from the contract, which is for network access/airtime. The phone is yours from day one. Why do you think that so many end up on eBay..? This does of course assume the contract is not ended early, as in this case, when different conditions may well apply. Read the small print. Ivor > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > This does of course assume the contract is not ended early, as in this > case, when different conditions may well apply. Read the small print. I think I get the hang of this - rather than the phone being theirs, it is yours *so long as the terms of the contract are fulfilled* - that's not the case in which case Voda are within their rights to ask for either the phone or the contract to be paid? SignatureSue [snip] > > I think you'll find that most contracts contain a > > clause that specifically excludes the handset itself [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > case Voda are within their rights to ask for either the > phone or the contract to be paid? I'm not a lawyer, but that's the way I see it. They are asking for the phone back as the price of ending the contract early. It may or may not have any legal standing, but I'll await the OP's report of any court proceedings with interest..! Ivor > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ivor It might not have any legal standing, but neither does their offer to end the contract early. If you're going to enforce your legal rights, Vodafone is within their right to enforce theirs (ie. pay to end contract). D >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >case in which case Voda are within their rights to ask for either the phone >or the contract to be paid? Not sure about all contracts but with mine, after reading it numerous times, Vodafone make no claim to the phone at all. There is only one section that covers the ending of my contract with Vodafone. It details the way either myself or Vodafone may end the contract. It then details what will happen if the contract is ended early. 8) Ending of this Agreement c) When this Agreement comes to an end:- * your mobile device will be disconnected; * you will no longer be entitled to use your mobile device number; * you will have to pay immediately all charges outstanding at disconnection; * unless you have ended this Agreement under 8a)or in accordance with clause 2 you will also have to pay the monthly (or other periodic) line rental for the amount of the term which is left to run or if the term has expired you will have to pay immediately the monthly (or other periodic) line rental charge for a further calendar month. If the term has not expired and you pay us this money in one lump sum immediately after this agreement comes to an end, we will reduce the amount you have to pay us by 2%. You will be unable to have your mobile decide reconnected until we release your electronic serial number; and * we will repay any deposit you have given us but only if you do not owe us any money. No interest will be payable. The phone is 100% mine. They have _no_ legal claim to it. They do a right to claim all remaining line rental for the duration of the contract. This (and only this) is what they are likely to take me to court to claim. SignatureThanks PajaP > Hi > > I want to keep the phone. I don't want to pay > Vodafone any money. > > Thoughts? That's all it comes down to! Far too many customers like that around. >> I want to keep the phone. I don't want to pay >> Vodafone any money. >That's all it comes down to! Far too many customers like that around. What? far too many that don't let themselves be screwed. pajap2@news-only.invalid declared for all the world to hear... > OK so far so good but I want to keep the phone. I want to keep it > without giving Vodafone any more money. Tough. You can't have your cake and eat it. > In a following email they have said I have to return it or pay them > £410. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > me to return the handset. Does not state it is a requirement of > canceling my contract (at least how I read it). There's nothing in the contract which says you can cancel it. They are offering you a way out with terms attached. Take it or leave it. > I want rid of Vodafone. I want to keep the phone. You sound like a petulant child. Give the phone back and walk away from your contract or carry on with it, that is the choice you have to make. > I am prepared (and already expect to have to) to take this to court if > they do not relent. > > Thoughts? You would lose. SignatureRegards Jon >There's nothing in the contract which says you can cancel it. They are >offering you a way out with terms attached. Take it or leave it. Yes there is. 8) Ending of this agreement. Lots of lines here that I will have to pay the full term of the contract. Nothing about returning MY phone. They have agreed to end the contract without penalty. Asking me to send them MY property is a penalty. >You sound like a petulant child. Name calling. Tut tut. And I am the child? Not a child. Just someone with the balls to not give in to a large corporation that thinks it can screw its customer and get away with it without penalty. >> I am prepared (and already expect to have to) to take this to court if >> they do not relent. >> >> Thoughts? > >You would lose. We will see! Signaturethanks PajaP >>> I am prepared (and already expect to have to) to take this to court if >>> they do not relent. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >We will see! I think Vodafone have bent over backwards to accommodate you, and that you should return the phone. After all, they have refunded the cost of it to you. You are trying to get something for nothing, whatever way you look at it, I would consider it stealing. Of course you may feel they have stolen your time and energy through billing mistakes, but that's though luck at the end of the day - unless there's something in the contract to accommodate you. Signaturehttp://www.unimobiles.com | http://www.unlockyourphone.co.uk UK Specialists in Refurbished Mobile Phones & Accessories >I think Vodafone have bent over backwards to accommodate you, and that >you should return the phone. After all, they have refunded the cost of >it to you. You are trying to get something for nothing, whatever way >you look at it, I would consider it stealing. Please explain how Vodafone have "bent over backwards to accommodate me". They have screwed up my account for the last 6 months and continue to do so. They send me 10's of unsolicited text messages even after promising to stop this several times. If you see that as accommodating me, I pity your customers. They screw up, they should expect to pay the price. The price is they lose the money for the rest of the contract. The price of the phone does not come into it. They 'gave/sold' me this for free. As for stealing. Vodafone are the ones attempting to "steal" MY phone. They gave me something for free (the phone) in the expectation of getting something greater in return (my custom/money for a period of at least 18 months). They screwed up our business relationship, not me. They have to pay the price. This does not include being given the ability to steal off me. The phone does NOT form part of my airtime contract with them. This is covered by a separate contract. The sales contract/receipt of the phone. Which I honoured in full. If they had not offered me the phone for free, I would have paid the £150. >Of course you may feel they have stolen your time and energy through >billing mistakes, but that's though luck at the end of the day - >unless there's something in the contract to accommodate you. "Tough luck". Again, I pity your customers with that attitude. There is something in the contract to accommodate me. A sales receipt stating the phone is mine. I am the innocent party in this. I entered into a contract with Vodafone expecting them to at least be able to manage the billing side of it. To continually spam me, forcing a number change and then to mess up my billing 6 months in a row. Yeah right, if your provider did that to you I am sure you would be singing their praises. They are big enough to admit their mistakes. That does not mean they should get away with it for free. They have already had money off me. The only thing I am gaining is not having to pay the remaining time on my contract. The phone was mine from day one. No-one has yet convinced me otherwise. Please show the contract clause that says the phone is the property of Vodafone if I do not go to end of term with the contract. Even if I just cancelled the contract at the very first billing error. The most a court could do is order me to pay the remaining term. They could not repossess the phone. Because in law, it is mine! The sales receipt shows this. SignatureThanks PajaP > Even if I just cancelled the contract at the very first billing error. > The most a court could do is order me to pay the remaining term. They > could not repossess the phone. Because in law, it is mine! The sales > receipt shows this. Well then if you have as much backbone in real life as you do stamina as a keyboard warrior on Usenet, why don't you simply refuse their demands and invite them to pursue the matter before a District Judge? They might well decide it's not worth their while to do so for what is a relatively small amount.......but then again they might decide to go for it, in which case you'll find yourself having to justify your stance. And I think you'd lose. But feel free to try the former..............and good luck. >Well then if you have as much backbone in real life as you do stamina >as a keyboard warrior on Usenet, why don't you simply refuse their >demands and invite them to pursue the matter before a District Judge? Don't see myself as a keyboard warrior but I like to stand up for my beliefs. >They might well decide it's not worth their while to do so for what is >a relatively small amount.......but then again they might decide to go >for it, in which case you'll find yourself having to justify your >stance. Yes, I have advised Vodafone this is the course of action we must take. I think I have probably annoyed them enough now (though annoyance was not my intention) that they will indeed "go for it". >And I think you'd lose. You are most likely right. My only defence will be Vodafone admit they have acted badly. That they are prepared to end the contract with no penalties but want me to give them 'my property' as a penalty. >But feel free to try the former..............and good luck. Thanks. You can be sure I will post the court outcome here. Win or lose! SignaturePajaP >> There's nothing in the contract which says you can cancel it. They are >> offering you a way out with terms attached. Take it or leave it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They have agreed to end the contract without penalty. Asking me to > send them MY property is a penalty. The terms of the contract are irrelevant here. What Vodafone are doing is ignoring them (to your benefit) and allowing you to get out of your contract without having to follow the terms of the contract. Therefore, when considering the requirements of you getting out the contract, you should not refer to the contract unless the contract terms are more favourable to you. You have 2 options: 1.) Follow the letter of the contract and pay your self out the contract 2.) Accept their offer of goodwill and follow their requirement to return the handset. >> You sound like a petulant child. > > Name calling. Tut tut. And I am the child? > Not a child. Just someone with the balls to not give in to a large > corporation that thinks it can screw its customer and get away with it > without penalty. How is returning your situation to that which you were in before the start of the contract unfair? >>> I am prepared (and already expect to have to) to take this to court if >>> they do not relent. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > We will see! Put it this way. Have Vodafone made an effort to understand your situation and be accommodating? Yes - they've offered to cancel the remaining months of your contract, in exchange for returning the (free/subsidised) phone. Are they forcing you to do this? No. You can continue with your contract, or you can keep the phone and pay the normal retail price (£410). You could, if you wanted, flog the phone on eBay and then use that money to pay yourself out. They're not forcing you to do anything. It's your choice. Legally, they have every right to enforce their contract. Morally, they're doing the 'right thing' and being fair. Seriously, take it to court, and I think the Magistrate (or whoever gets allocated to your hearing in the Small Claims court) would find in favour of Vodafone as they have tried to be fair. D Thanks for the reply. I another message you also wrote: >"You are correct - they have absolutely no right to claim ownership of >your phone. However, they do have the absolute right to enforce the >remaining 12 months of your contract." Great. At least someone can see the phone is mine. My only real concern here is Vodafone state: "Having shown your email records to my manager she has agreed to cancel your account with no penalties attached" Saying that and then saying: "all I need you to do is return the hand set" I see this as being a 'penalty'. They want something that is mine, in return for ending a contract and business relationship that they soured. >Seriously, take it to court, and I think the Magistrate (or whoever gets >allocated to your hearing in the Small Claims court) would find in >favour of Vodafone as they have tried to be fair. I have already informed Vodafone this is the action I am to take. Maybe the magistrate will see Vodafone expecting me to give them my property as a 'penalty' also. I am willing to take this risk. SignatureThank you Paul Jones >>Seriously, take it to court, and I think the Magistrate (or whoever gets >>allocated to your hearing in the Small Claims court) would find in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I am willing to take this risk. FWIW, I think the handset is yours. However the complexities of all this are probably a bit too much for all of us barrack-room lawyers to comment on with any accuracy. How about another stance? If you are as determined as you say you are..calculate all of the time you have spent dealing with this, as well as the incidental costs you have incurred and then send them a recorded letter demanding compensation for that time and expense (converted to a monetary value)..which I'm sure will come to significantly more than the cost of the handset. The go on to state in a conciliatory tone that you would be prepared to accept the handset in lieu of the claimed compensation. If as I suspect, they refuse this offer, then issue a claim against them in the small claims court (costs about £50 I believe) and then let them defend it. All of this is dependent on you having kept meticulous records of this sorry affair, to produce as "evidence" SignatureRegards John [Essex, UK] Remove the obvious spamtrap to reply >FWIW, I think the handset is yours. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >value)..which I'm sure will come to significantly more than the cost of the >handset. This I have already done along with a possible claim any legal fees and court costs. They have acknowledged receipt of it and say: "I confirm that Vodafone will not be covering the costs that you state you have incurred and will not be covering your legal and court fees". >The go on to state in a conciliatory tone that you would be >prepared to accept the handset in lieu of the claimed compensation. This will be the next stage. If they do not agree, my PAC will be used, the account will be cancelled and they can go to court to claim their remaining line rental. I will counter claim with my costs. >If as I suspect, they refuse this offer, then issue a claim against them in >the small claims court (costs about £50 I believe) and then let them defend >it. Yup should be about £50 at www.moneyclaim.gov.uk :) >All of this is dependent on you having kept meticulous records of this >sorry affair, to produce as "evidence" I have. SignaturePaul Jones > "I confirm that Vodafone will not be covering the costs that you state > you have incurred and will not be covering your legal and court fees". But if you do take Vodafone to the County Court, it will be the judge who decides who pays, whose fees! Vodafone will not get the choice as that decision is for the District Judge and not Vodafone. I hope you do take it to court and I *hope* you win, although Vodafone being the way they are, I think you will only be able to win by default! By that I mean, they decide not to respond thus the Judge will be forced to automatically find in your favour. Mind you I dislike Vodafone, by virtue of where I live. But then my very first job, was working as a warehouse/mail room worker at a then very small company that had just been formed by being sold by the Defence Company Racal. Ah those were the days, when Voda-fone only employed about 20-30 people, voda-page was the paging side of that company... So good luck, as you will need it! >> "I confirm that Vodafone will not be covering the costs that you state >> you have incurred and will not be covering your legal and court fees". > >But if you do take Vodafone to the County Court, it will be the judge >who decides who pays, whose fees! Vodafone will not get the choice as >that decision is for the District Judge and not Vodafone. Quite. I just copied/pasted their reply. When I told them I would be claiming from them I stated I would also claim (again a copy/paste): I will be claiming my court fees. I will be claiming my legal fees. I do understand it is the courts decision whether these will have to be paid or not. >So good luck, as you will need it! Many thanks I am sure you are right. SignaturePajaP >>> "I confirm that Vodafone will not be covering the costs that you state >>> you have incurred and will not be covering your legal and court fees". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I do understand it is the courts decision whether these will have to > be paid or not. I believe you cannot claim legal fees besides the submission fee (nor be required to pay the defendant's) when using the Small Claims Court (which I believe Money Claim is a front for). It's designed to allow people to present their claim without requiring any legal representation. You can use a solicitor if you wish, but it's unlikely you'll get those fees paid, even if you win. D > I believe you cannot claim legal fees besides the submission fee (nor be > required to pay the defendant's) when using the Small Claims Court [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > D Correct. The Small Claims track of the County Court (to be pedantic, there is actually no such thing as a Small Claims Court) is much a more informal regime and, as you say, court fees for issuing the claim are claimable along with interest (if you request it) and any expert witness costs; legal fees are not. However, a number of very dubious solicitors take advantage of the more relaxed environment to further their cause (submitting papers late, ignoring CPR guidelines, failing to comply with Court Directions etc). It's an experience to see just how underhand solicitors can be :-) And don't forget, even if you win, the other party can simply choose to ignore the ruling; you then have to go through the hassle of enforcing judgment. >Phone bought form Vodafone store for £150. >£150 refund given at store managers discretion. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >I am prepared (and already expect to have to) to take this to court if >they do not relent. Well it does not appear I will get then opportunity to test this in court. Vodafone have today emailed me that I can leave them without penalty and keep "the" phone ("the" phone and not "your" phone). They also wrote "Vodafone will not be covering any of your stated costs". This was never about me making money off them. I just wanted to keep 'my' phone and not have to pay the remaining 12-months on the contract. Something I did not think unreasonable as it was them that soured our business relationship and continued to do so by their persistent incorrect billing (online it still shows as £10 too much for last month). So, I am about to email them stating I see the matter as closed and that I will not proceed any further with my court action for expenses I have incurred. They are going to send me my final bill once I use my PAC. They have promised to correct any errors on the final bill. SignatureThanks PajaP >Well it does not appear I will get then opportunity to test this in >court. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >They are going to send me my final bill once I use my PAC. >They have promised to correct any errors on the final bill. Well, if you're happy with that outcome, then I'd say ...RESULT!! Glad you had the courage of your convictions and stuck to your guns. Well done. SignatureRegards John [Essex, UK] Remove the obvious spamtrap to reply >>Well it does not appear I will get then opportunity to test this in >>court. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Well done. Thanks :) though in all honesty I would rather have been a happy and content Vodafone customer than had all the hassles I have encountered over the last 6 months. At least it has not resulted in my credit rating being affected. Now I just have to decide on a new contract or pay in advance. And an operator/provider. SignatureThanks PajaP > This was never about me making money off them. I just wanted to keep > 'my' phone and not have to pay the remaining 12-months on the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > They are going to send me my final bill once I use my PAC. > They have promised to correct any errors on the final bill. You've cost them more in man-hour costs and they're probably glad just to see the back of you. I certainly wouldn't be sorry to lose a whining git like yourself. >> This was never about me making money off them. I just wanted to keep >> 'my' phone and not have to pay the remaining 12-months on the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I certainly wouldn't be sorry to lose a whining git like yourself. Whatever their reasons, I am happy and would do the same again. So you would just accept incorrect bills that amounted to over £150 over 6 months? You are either thick as sh.t or full of it. SignatureThanks PajaP <snip> >>I am prepared (and already expect to have to) to take this to court if >>they do not relent. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >They are going to send me my final bill once I use my PAC. >They have promised to correct any errors on the final bill. I have to admit I am surprised by your victory - but well done! |
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