ChildLocate

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Jon Magnusson - 09 Oct 2003 14:19 GMT

We have just launched a new service, ChildLocate; this service enables
parents to locate their children's mobile phones anywhere in the UK.
For further information to www.childlocate.co.uk

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Mungo Jerry - 09 Oct 2003 14:55 GMT

Sorry, you`ve blown it.

Capitalising on people concerns and fears ESPECIALLY where children are
concerned is disgusting.

If my network (or even you) offered the service on a pay-as-you go basis I
would consider it.

But with your £9.99/month subscription service, you are taking the mick.

Excellent idea, tarnished by your greed.

Just my tuppence.

MJ

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ChildLocate - 10 Oct 2003 10:17 GMT

> Sorry, you`ve blown it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> MJ

I don't think that offering a service that increases children security
is "disqusting". It is up to parents if they want to buy this or not.
We can't offer the service on a PAYG basis, if we would do that there
is no way of keeping track on who is actually using the service and
verifying their details. Hence, opening the system up for potential
abuse. This service is heavily regulated by the mobile operators and
we follow a strict Code of practice laid down by them. If you compare
our service with the competition I trust you will find our prices
competitive.

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hairydog@despammed.com - 10 Oct 2003 11:51 GMT

>I don't think that offering a service that increases children security
>is "disqusting".

No, but you are not offering a service that increases children
security at all.

>It is up to parents if they want to buy this or not.

Indeed, but it is a shitty deal.

> We can't offer the service on a PAYG basis, if we would do that there
>is no way of keeping track on who is actually using the service and
>verifying their details.

Well, that's odd, because fleetonline seem to manage to offer it on a
PAYG basis, and charge less than you do. And they don't feel the need
to spam this newsgroup about it either.

I have severe reservations about these systems. At the same time, they
are both intrusive and unreliable.

All the system can do is track more or less where a handset is. They
do not tell you where a person is, or provide any security at all.

Even if you cold provide a system that told me exactly where my
chiildren (not their phones) are at any time, I do not believe that
would make them any safer.

In addition, I am concerned that children are increasingly being
imprisoned by their parents' fears.

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Iain
the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
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Ivor Jones - 10 Oct 2003 20:36 GMT

> >I don't think that offering a service that increases children security
> >is "disqusting".
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> chiildren (not their phones) are at any time, I do not believe that
> would make them any safer.

How about making the adults safer..? Twice in recent years I've been
physically abused by children while working as a late night bus driver.
Once I was punched full in the face, once in the side of my head. I've
lost count of the number of times I've been spat on by 10-14 year olds.

Of course if I were to so much as lay a finger on *them* I'd be had up for
child abuse.....

Ivor

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ChildLocate - 11 Oct 2003 00:03 GMT

> >I don't think that offering a service that increases children security
> >is "disqusting".
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> In addition, I am concerned that children are increasingly being
> imprisoned by their parents' fears.

As the name fleetonline implies it is a service aimed at the corporate
market and different conditions apply to our service which is aimed at
parents. Location based services aimed at the corporate market and
location based services aimed at the parental market are subject to
very different code of practice laid down by the UK mobile operators.
For example, how are you going to validate the identity of the person
using the service if he/she is using the service on a PAYG basis? Do
your want somebody to have access to a children tracking service where
there is no way of knowing who the person is? I am a parent and to be
honest I can't believe you saying that there is no added safety in
knowing where your child is. You say the system is intrusive, well,
as a parent, I have legal obligations on ensuring my child's safety
and if the child is under the age of 16 and I am the parent or legal
guardian I decide on how much privacy is healthy for my child. You
say it is a shitty deal but it does cost money to provide a safe
system, and the measures we take far reach the measures some of the
fleet tracking services take with regards to minimising the
possibility that somebody will abuse the service. I suggest you
actively compare the services available before you jump to conclusion.

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hairydog@despammed.com - 11 Oct 2003 11:01 GMT

>As the name fleetonline implies it is a service aimed at the corporate
>market and different conditions apply to our service which is aimed at
>parents.

Drivel. It is exactly the same service, but fleetonline offer a bit
more. The fleetonline system is marketed at companies, but it is
entirely suitable for monitoring families.

>Location based services aimed at the corporate market and
>location based services aimed at the parental market are subject to
>very different code of practice laid down by the UK mobile operators.

Oh, really? So yours is better because it is subject to a different
code of practice? Do tell how yours differs, and why it is suitable
for spamming here.

>For example, how are you going to validate the identity of the person
>using the service if he/she is using the service on a PAYG basis?

I can only assume that you have not used fleetonline. Their validation
system seems to work perfectly well.

> Do
>your want somebody to have access to a children tracking service where
>there is no way of knowing who the person is?

And do you have any way to ascertain the relationship between your
users and their targets? Remember that most child abuse is by
relatives: are you only accepting strangers, or do you make some other
value judgement?

>I am a parent and to be
>honest I can't believe you saying that there is no added safety in
>knowing where your child is.

Well, that's is exactly what I am not saying.

I am saying that there is no added safety in knowing where a child's
mobile phone is. that is most emphatically not the same as knowing
where the child is. A point you are repeatedly overlooking.

>You say the system is intrusive, well,
>as a parent, I have legal obligations on ensuring my child's safety

Do you? Can you cite the legislative basis for this statement?

>and if the child is under the age of 16 and I am the parent or legal
>guardian I decide on how much privacy is healthy for my child.

The courts take a different view. But we are not talking about you as
a parent, but you as a company ripping people off to the tune of £120
per year for a service that would be far cheaper from a competitor.

> You
>say it is a shitty deal but it does cost money to provide a safe
>system, and the measures we take far reach the measures some of the
>fleet tracking services take with regards to minimising the
>possibility that somebody will abuse the service.

So tell me: what, exactly, do you do to make sure that a parent,
uncle, or other relative (or non-relative) who will track a child is
not likely to abuse that information?

Fleetonline requires the explicit opt-in of the "person" being
tracked, and they can opt out at any time. Are you suggesting that you
do more?

The only difference I can discern is that you send "reminders" to the
target to say how to opt out. That'd be really handy if they have been
abducted, or (more likely) their phone has been stolen!

>I suggest you
>actively compare the services available before you jump to conclusion.

Not bloody likely. I have no intention of buying from a spamming
rip-off merchant.

I have, however, looked at the details you give on your web site. You
say that you confirm the applicant's address and credit card details.
Nothing about checking any other bona fides. I strongly suspect that
there are no checks made whatsoever.

The differences between you and fleetonline seem to be that they offer
it on a PAYG basis (more suitable for low usage) they charge less
(even for heavy use) and they don't spam newsgroups with their
product.

You offer every user a list of other users who have tracked the same
target through your system. This has some potential confidentiality
implications.

Unless you can point out one other feature that your service offers
that fleetonline does not, I shall draw my own conclusions about your
product.

Iain

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Iain
the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
Browse now while stocks last!

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Jim Ley - 13 Oct 2003 00:34 GMT

> Location based services aimed at the corporate market and
>location based services aimed at the parental market are subject to
>very different code of practice laid down by the UK mobile operators.
>For example, how are you going to validate the identity of the person
>using the service if he/she is using the service on a PAYG basis?

The same woeful, insecure way you do now - spoofing the from address
on an SMS is too easy - bu that can still easily be done on a PAYG
basis - ie you just charge X pounds to set the service up, then Y
pounds per use. There's no more security implications than your
current behaviour

Since you've obviously missed my previous comments in the thread, how
do you ensure that the message sent from the childs mobile has
anything to do with coming from that phone?

Jim.

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Matthew Haigh - 13 Oct 2003 08:46 GMT

>> Location based services aimed at the corporate market and
>>location based services aimed at the parental market are subject to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>The same woeful, insecure way you do now - spoofing the from address
>on an SMS is too easy

Whilst changing the origination address on an SMS is almost trivially
easy with the right access to the network (I should know!), the network
will know if that message originated on one of it's handsets or not.
Whether this knowledge is used in protecting against malicious sign-up
to a location service or not I don't know.

>Since you've obviously missed my previous comments in the thread, how
>do you ensure that the message sent from the childs mobile has
>anything to do with coming from that phone?

As above, it is visible to the network, but I don't know if that gets
passed on to people like childlocate. You would HOPE the networks are
security conscious about this so that 3rd party service providers don't
have to be fully up to speed to have a secure service.

Matt

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Matthew Haigh --$matthaigh{News04}$@haigh.org--
GCRSoft, providing SMS solutions since 1996...
http://www.gcrsoft.com http://www.moretext.com

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David Horne - 11 Oct 2003 08:30 GMT

> We can't offer the service on a PAYG basis, if we would do that there
> is no way of keeping track on who is actually using the service and
> verifying their details. Hence, opening the system up for potential
> abuse.

This is a bit dishonest. It's perfectly possible to 'keep track' of your
subscribers without charging them a subscription _fee_.

David

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David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

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