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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Verizon / November 2006Cellular Repeater Systems
Hi All, I`ve checked out several sites selling cellular repeaters and it seems to be the answer to my low signal problem. I`m in the Smoky Mnt. Natl. Prk. area of Tn. and can get, at best, 2 bars...sometimes it just fluctuates between 0-2 bars. (I have a Samsung a670 phone if that makes any difference.) Anyone have personal experience they would kindly share ie. are they all created equally? There seems to be quite a wide price range......does anyone have a preference? etc. This will be for a residence with 2 identical cell phones. Any info/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Gene There are basically three ways to go on this.. 1) Cellular Repeater designed for wireless in-building coverage of 50 or more feet (approx $500). 2) Cellular Repeater designed for wireless in-vehicle coverage of three or four feet (approx $300). 3) Cellular external antenna designed for tethering to phone - in-building or in-vehicle 6 to 12 feet (approx $40). Here's the deal... if you can't get a useable signal using an external antenna, the repeaters probably won't work for you anyway. (i.e. you can't amplify what you don't have). My advice, try an external antenna first. If that works, buy one of the wireless cellular solutions. I'm on step one. I've been using an external antenna for a few years in my home office. I am usually in the garden level room (1/2 underground) and my house has steel siding. The external antenna works for me. It sits just outside the window, on the ground, in some shrubs. I'm saving my pennies so I can afford the $500 solution, someday. :) -Frank > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Gene >There are basically three ways to go on this.. > >1) Cellular Repeater designed for wireless in-building coverage of 50 or >more feet (approx $500). Pretty much what I`ve seen. I mean, I`m already paying almost $100 a month for the two phone service which generates between 0-2 bars (on a 4 bar phone) at any given time at home. I can get 3 bars on my roof, which is the min. requirment for most of these repeater kits. Seems like a small price to pay for the improvment. (snip-o-rama) >Here's the deal... if you can't get a useable signal using an external >antenna, the repeaters probably won't work for you anyway. (i.e. you can't >amplify what you don't have). > >My advice, try an external antenna first. If that works, buy one of the >wireless cellular solutions. I will try one of these first. >I'm on step one. I've been using an external antenna for a few years in my >home office. I am usually in the garden level room (1/2 underground) and my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >-Frank Thanks, Frank, for the info. Gene Finding the keyboard operational SuperUnkown entered: >> There are basically three ways to go on this.. >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Gene Another thing you might try is to put a high gain antenna on the roof (a directional pointed to the nearest cellsite would be best) connected to an antenna inside your house. This way you aren't tethered. This works very well. In fact, we once put a 6dB vertical on the roff of a building connected to a 3dB inside an AC duct. Suddenly everyone could make phone calls inside!  Signature-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times www.moondoggiecoffee.com > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Gene I seem to recall a year or two back the gist of which was that if you install your own repeater and VZW finds out about it, they'll whack your pee-pee. Something about they want to install it so they can charge for the equipment, the install and a monthly fee Not sure if I'm remembering that right--- or if the rules have changed. Maybe take a look at your CSA? Butch > > Hi All, > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Butch The current VZW contract does indeed say, under Our Rights To Limit Or End Service... "You agree that you won't install, deploy, or use any regeneration equipment or similar mechanism (for example a repeater) to originate, amplify, enhance, retransmit or regenerate a transmitted RF signal." Whether it is for technical reason (possibility of interfgerence with their network?) or to keep another opportunity to charge you is still unclear. -- >> I seem to recall a year or two back the gist of which was that if you >> install your own repeater and VZW finds out about it, they'll whack [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >their network?) or to keep another opportunity to charge you is still >unclear. Again, interesting. I`m holding my contract dated 02/05 and it states no such thing. Perhaps this is a regional thing? As I stated to Butch, I just spoke with a verizon tech guy who pretty much claimed complete and total ignorance to my whole repeater inquiry. He just refused to discuss it...period. Again, thanks for the quick response. Gene >> Hi All, >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Butch Interesting. I just spoke with a verizon tech guy who pretty much claimed complete and total ignorance to my whole repeater inquiry. Thanks for the quick response. Gene Sounds like the guy that you talked with is a Tard! > Interesting. I just spoke with a verizon tech guy who pretty much claimed > complete and total ignorance to my whole repeater inquiry. > Thanks for the quick response. > > Gene Finding the keyboard operational Butch Haynes entered: > I seem to recall a year or two back the gist of which was that if you > install your own repeater and VZW finds out about it, they'll whack [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Butch The problem with these repeaters for sale is that you can not use them legally without Verizon's permission. Verizon has the license to operate on that frequency and they don't want you causing any disruption with out them controlling it. Even if your installation does nothing but improve your signal, you do not own a license to transmit and you are not going to be able to get license from the FCC because they have gotten money from Verizon for it. Bob Signature-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times www.moondoggiecoffee.com > Finding the keyboard operational > Butch Haynes entered: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > own a license to transmit and you are not going to be able to get license > from the FCC because they have gotten money from Verizon for it. I don't think it is nearly so clear. The transmitter in the building is on Verizon's tower frequency, but the power level is so small (the one I helped a friend install was 5 mW in the house) that it is under the 10 mW limit for license-free operation under FCC Part 15. This one is definitely legal. The antenna on the roof, on the other hand, transmits at the same freqency, and at about the same power level, as your phone; the signal the repeater transmits should in principle be pretty much indistinguishable from the signal you would transmit with the antenna plugged directly into the phone. Verizon has given you permission to transmit on that frequency by offering you phone service. I guess Verizon could quibble about the equipment you are using if they wanted to, but I don't think anything violates any FCC rules and it isn't clear to me that Verizon could distinguish a good quality repeater from a phone. Dennis Ferguson Finding the keyboard operational Dennis Ferguson entered: > I don't think it is nearly so clear. The transmitter in the building > is on Verizon's tower frequency, but the power level is so small (the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Dennis Ferguson Dennis, I am not trying to start an argument by any means. Could you point me to the 10mW exemption? I have heard it both ways for the cellular band and I don't remember seeing it in print or online at the FCC webpage. I know I am asking you to do my homework but I am hoping you have it close at hand. As far as the license to transmit goes. Yes, Verizon has given you permission to transmit but only with equipment that they approve. For example, if you could build your own phone, Verizon would not approve it. They wouldn't go thru the time and expense. You could get the FCC to approve it but it's still up to Verizon what they will allow on their network. BTW it would be almost impossible to build your own phone. Even if you could, it would be very cost prohibitive. Thanks Bob Signature-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times www.moondoggiecoffee.com > I am not trying to start an argument by any means. Could you point me to the > 10mW exemption? I have heard it both ways for the cellular band and I don't > remember seeing it in print or online at the FCC webpage. I know I am asking > you to do my homework but I am hoping you have it close at hand. The emission limits for general intentional radiators are listed in this http://tinyurl.com/p7yck in the table at the start of section 15.209. Unfortunately they are given as measured field strengths, rather than transmitter powers, and when I try to compute the corresponding output power I get microWatts instead of milliWatts, so either I've got the allowed power or (not unlikely) the computation for doing the conversion wrong. I'll have to ask someone at work to explain it to me. I'm quite sure the repeaters are legal under FCC regulations in any case, however, since if they weren't they wouldn't have them sitting out on the shelves for sale at Fry's and the Internet sellers would at least list them as "for export only". > As far as the license to transmit goes. Yes, Verizon has given you > permission to transmit but only with equipment that they approve. For > example, if you could build your own phone, Verizon would not approve it. > They wouldn't go thru the time and expense. You could get the FCC to approve > it but it's still up to Verizon what they will allow on their network. It's not that clear. If you buy a foreign CDMA phone model that Verizon has never seen before with service in Mexico, or Korea, and bring it to the US, Verizon will happily take your money to provide the phone with roaming service. This happens all the time, and happens even though a foreign phone without some sort of FCC certification is probably not strictly legal to use in the country. I'm certain Verizon has the right to tell you not to use any piece of equipment they don't like but their default position seems to be, if you are using the equipment to get service you are paying for, it's fine. Dennis Ferguson Finding the keyboard operational Dennis Ferguson entered: >> I am not trying to start an argument by any means. Could you point >> me to the 10mW exemption? I have heard it both ways for the cellular [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Dennis Ferguson Thanks Dennis. I'll have to read that later. I've forgotten just how much fun Part 15 is to read. I am not saying the repeaters themselves are illegal. The use without Verizon's permission is the issue. Mr. Fortune 500 company wants to cover their building, That's OK with Verizon, they'll even change their RF planning. The guy on the $29.99 plan in a valley wants one. Forget it. If Verizon notices a change in their pattern, then you are using an illegal transmitter. As in transmitting on Verizon's freq. As to foreign phones, If it doesn't screw things up for other paying customers and Verizon can charge you too, they will. My experiance with Verizon accepting phones by model number was from the Lucent cell side. As in,"Oh no. We would never use anything that would screwup Lucent's equipment." I forgot that the real world is very different then the lab. Money talks, everything else walks. Bob Signature-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times www.moondoggiecoffee.com My advise is to try a new cellular service. Invite friends and co-workers to your home and try their phones and they switch services. Cellular repeaters and antennas are quite expensive, labor intensive to install, and a down-right pain in the a.s. Try to find another cellular service the provides a good signal. > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Gene >My advise is to try a new cellular service. Invite friends and co-workers to >your home and try their phones and they switch services. Cellular repeaters >and antennas are quite expensive, labor intensive to install, and a >down-right pain in the a.s. Try to find another cellular service the >provides a good signal. I highly doubt any carrier will be better in the area the OP is in. Some places in this country, especially in mountainous terrains, require signal enhancement of some sort. On I-40 near the NC/TN line, you often can't reach anyone, I don't care who your carrier is. >My advise is to try a new cellular service. Invite friends and co-workers to >your home and try their phones and they switch services. Cellular repeaters >and antennas are quite expensive, labor intensive to install, and a >down-right pain in the a.s. Try to find another cellular service the >provides a good signal. Been there and done that. Verizon was the clear winner. Thanks for the quick response. Gene I assume that you tried Sprint, Cingular, T-Mobile, Alltel and any others? Many times one carrier will have a tower near you. That is the case where I live. All of the other carriers don't provide a usable signal. >>My advise is to try a new cellular service. Invite friends and co-workers >>to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Gene >I assume that you tried Sprint, Cingular, T-Mobile, Alltel and any others? >Many times one carrier will have a tower near you. That is the case where I >live. All of the other carriers don't provide a usable signal. I take it you've never been to the NC/TN Smokey Mountains area. Yes, I used to vaction in Maggie Valley and Ashville 25 years ago and they barely had land lines. >>I assume that you tried Sprint, Cingular, T-Mobile, Alltel and any others? >>Many times one carrier will have a tower near you. That is the case where >>I >>live. All of the other carriers don't provide a usable signal. > > I take it you've never been to the NC/TN Smokey Mountains area. >Yes, I used to vaction in Maggie Valley and Ashville 25 years ago and they >barely had land lines. Well, step forward 25 years and that's the condition cellular service is there now. I'm surprised the OP gets are much signal as he claims. >I assume that you tried Sprint, Cingular, T-Mobile, Alltel and any others? >Many times one carrier will have a tower near you. That is the case where I >live. All of the other carriers don't provide a usable signal. The Verizon tower is more or less a mile from my home atop the mountain I live. I`m just in an awkward part of the mountain, but just lucky enough to get a signal on my property. No one else within a quarter mile area gets a signal. My phone goes totally dead when I leave my property. In fact, I was told by all of the carriers that my area was totally dead, according to their signal coverage map. When the construction crew was clearing my land and building my house, I noticed that the only workers able to get a call in or out was the ones using Verizon. Gene >>>My advise is to try a new cellular service. Invite friends and co-workers >>>to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Gene To clarify what other have said. The repeater would have to be placed somewhere at the strong signal edge of the nearest cell phone tower. So if the tower has a 2 mile range of good signal and you are 2.5 miles away the repeater would have to be around a half mile away from your house. If you place it the same place as the phones, its just going to try to repeat the same weak signal. The only way I can see it working is that if you could place the antenna high so it would get a better line of site to the cell tower. Or if you get a better signal outside your house or at a certain place on your property it may work there. > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Gene >To clarify what other have said. The repeater would have to be placed >somewhere at the strong signal edge of the nearest cell phone tower. So if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >a better signal outside your house or at a certain place on your property it >may work there. I can get three bars on the top of my roof. I have no problem setting up a pole/antenna long enough to grab that signal. LOL!! I`ve already got a stupid tacky satellite dish for my tv and a stupid tacky satellite dish for my internet. What difference does another stupid antenna make? They`re all in back of my house which is too high off the street to see behind. ;-) Gene > To clarify what other have said. The repeater would have to be placed > somewhere at the strong signal edge of the nearest cell phone tower. So if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Or if you get a better signal outside your house or at a certain > place on your property it may work there. Sounds like you may have no idea what a repeater actually does... What you wrote in the first few paragraphs is totally false..... The issue about bars and miles is resolved by using a yagi antenna with more gain. The more gain the antenna gives, the farther you can be from a signal source. It is how NASA has done it for years. High gain antennas on both ends of a space mission and very little power and you can move a signal from mars to earth with 5-10 watts ERP. Bottom line, go for a high gain yagi from celltenna, etc. Make sure you install it correctly. none >> To clarify what other have said. The repeater would have to be placed >> somewhere at the strong signal edge of the nearest cell phone tower. So if [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Sounds like you may have no idea what a repeater actually does... What you >wrote in the first few paragraphs is totally false..... For whatever it's worth....I was a contractor in the Verizon headquarters building in Irving,TX for about 3 years. Of course everyone in the building had a Verizon Cell phone, including me. The building is 4 stories high with 3 levels of underground parking. Naturally any cell call you were on dropped off as soon as you entered the parking garage. Inside the building wasn't much better. Everyone would try getting close to a window and then you would try to run to an exit before you dropped the call. The executives must have had enough because one Monday, everything started to work. Even on level 3 of the parking garage, the phones antenna would be pegged and the phone would work. Verizon installed antenna's on every floor and at several locations on all floors. > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Gene Yup, been using the repeater with both my phones and data in a pda and laptop, and roomie and his friends use their phones too... (I have the elcheapo one, only allows 10 users at once) CAE50 for $399 at http://www.cellantenna.com/repeater/building_repeater.htm Basically a directional antenna for outside (I put the yagi on the tv antenna mast pole and aimed it for the town about 20 miles away), and then cabled to the bi-directional amp and omnidirectional antenna inside... If you are thinking about saving a few bucks and getting a wired "booster" (rather than a repeater), consider what happens if you get a new phone, or someone comes to visit, or you decide to do data... If you get new equipment, you will probably have to get a new cable.... >> Hi All, >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (I have the elcheapo one, only allows 10 users at once) >CAE50 for $399 at http://www.cellantenna.com/repeater/building_repeater.htm Looks like a deal...even at the new low price of $449. heh! Gene >Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >This will be for a residence with 2 identical cell phones. >Any info/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Do you mean actually IN the park itself? I was there about a month ago. Very poor coverage in the park. At Clingman's dome, I barely got service on Ramcell (a Verizon extended network partner) and at Newfound Gap, I got somewhat OK coverage with Verizon on SID 139 (Cherokee, NC). Most of the time I hardly got any coverage - either from the Gatlinburg side (SID 93) or Cherokee side (SID 139). Even with a repeater I wonder if it would even work in your situation. Where exactly are you in the park, and what phones are you using? I used a Motorola V325 phone and like I said, it barely had any coverage at all. But I'm sure that's true with any carrier. Dave Finding the keyboard operational SuperUnkown entered: > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Gene Bars are not a real good indicator of the ability to make a call. They are a comfort indicator at best. Lab tests have shown a great variabilitywith phones of the same model. Signature-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times www.moondoggiecoffee.com |
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