 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion Groups General General TopicsGSMBluetoothProviders AlltelATT WirelessCingularFidoNextelSprint PCST-MobileVerizonManufacturers EricssonNokiaMotorolaCountry Specific Australian GroupUK GroupRelated Topics PocketPCPalmMore Topics ... |
Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Verizon / October 2007Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center
Today, Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center... Complete with technical documentation, sample code, and videos through ADC on iTunes, the iPhone Dev Center is a single source for information on designing, coding and optimizing applications for iPhone and iPod touch. http://developer.apple.com/iphone/devcenter/ Enjoy! > Today, Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center... Complete with technical > documentation, sample code, and videos through ADC on iTunes, the iPhone > Dev Center is a single source for information on designing, coding and > optimizing applications for iPhone and iPod touch. > > http://developer.apple.com/iphone/devcenter/ no native app info there . . . not that I really need it, I've got enough to keep me busy doing parallel dev on OS X proper. . . plus back in the day *I* was the guy making the SDKs (10.5 is apparently shipping with *3* of my sample projects in the /Developer/ Examples/ LOL) >> http://developer.apple.com/iphone/devcenter/ > no native app info there . . . Of course not. It's all about how you hack your web page to make it work with the iPhone. So now, besides the real Internet (which you access with a real browser such as IE or Firefox) and the mobile Internet (which you access with WAP), there's now the iPhone Internet (which you access with the world's worst browser, Safari). -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. > >>http://developer.apple.com/iphone/devcenter/ > > no native app info there . . . [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. The 'real' internet has to deal with monstrosities like IE, that much you are right about. But can you explain to me why we need an extra protocol for a 'mobile internet' when we can simply use css to adapt our pages to the iPhone? Belphegor <huelse@gmail.com> wrote in news:1193318366.289802.252910 @y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com: > we can simply use css to adapt our pages to the iPhone "Adapt"? What do you have to "adapt"? I thought it rendered webpages as it came. Larry  Signaturehttp://www.nseries.com/products/n800/#l=products,n800 .....already "adapted" > > >>http://developer.apple.com/iphone/devcenter/ > > > no native app info there . . . [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > But can you explain to me why we need an extra protocol for a 'mobile > internet' when we can simply use css to adapt our pages to the iPhone? Mark doesn't know about CSS, apparently. Among other things. > Mark doesn't know about CSS, apparently. I know about CSS. I see nothing about CSS that is specific to iPhone as opposed to being general principles for any web design. If iPhone requires specific web design for iPhone, as opposed to proper overall web design, then iPhone creates its own type of web, just like WAP has done. There should be no need for a development center on how to design web pages for iPhone. It was a design mistake that a web server is able to identify the client implementation at all; that creates this type of fragmented "do this for iPhone, do this for IE, do this for Firefox, do this for Blurdybloop" quagmire that we find ourselves in today. I don't expect Mac fanboys to understand the argument in the previous paragraph. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. > > Mark doesn't know about CSS, apparently. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. > Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. Please reconsider what you are saying here: > If iPhone requires specific web design for iPhone, as opposed to proper > overall web design, then iPhone creates its own type of web, just like WAP > has done. I can tell you very confidently that a css style sheet is easier to implement on a web site than to re-purpose that site to conform to WAP. Additionally to that, css is a well understood and widely used method of adjusting to different media needs. WAP is not, and most likely, never will be. The comparison you are presenting is terribly askew. And not in your favour, especially as the Browser you recommend, IE, is one of the main reasons alternative style sheets have to be developed that would be entirely redundant if that browser worked according to standards. > I can tell you very confidently that a css style sheet is easier to > implement on a web site than to re-purpose that site to conform to > WAP. > Additionally to that, css is a well understood and widely used method > of adjusting to different media needs. > WAP is not, and most likely, never will be. All this is true. Nonetheless, it is fundamentally wrong to use of CSS filters to produce specific results for iPhone (or for that matter IE). Consider the reports of pages not rendering the same on iPod Touch as iPhone, in spite of basically identical capabilities. What I'm advocating is use of CSS based upon device/browser capabilities, never mind that it may be called "iPhone" or "IE" or "Blurdybloop". > And not in your favour, especially as the Browser you recommend, IE, I don't "recommend" IE. I use it, but I also use Firefox at least as often (probably more often). > is one of the main reasons alternative style sheets have to be > developed that would be entirely redundant if that browser worked > according to standards. Aye, that's the rub of the matter. All too often, the philosophy of many current developers is to implement to cause a particular behavior in some other implementation, rather than implement according to the standard. That is the quick and easy way, but it causes tremendous problems for a any third implementation that follows the standard. Microsoft is (justly) criticized when it does this practice; but it is not specific to Microsoft. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. > > I can tell you very confidently that a css style sheet is easier to > > implement on a web site than to re-purpose that site to conform to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > All this is true. Nonetheless, it is fundamentally wrong to use of CSS > filters to produce specific results for iPhone (or for that matter IE). I really don't think you understand the practice and purpose of css. The whole idea of css and the separation of content and style is that you can use style sheets to reformat for different platforms and media. Thus we add style sheets for printing page to our web sites. Thus we can also provide styles to make content easier readable for the visually impaired, or for that matter, more convenient for visitors who have devices with small screen sizes (such as most mobile phones). The result is that all devices and browser are able to display the content of any document that is coded according to the current standards. > Consider the reports of pages not rendering the same on iPod Touch as > iPhone, in spite of basically identical capabilities. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I don't "recommend" IE. I use it, but I also use Firefox at least as > often (probably more often). You described IE in your previous post as a 'real browser' and Safari as 'the worlds worst browser'. If that is not a recommendation of IE over Safari, you tell me what it is. > > is one of the main reasons alternative style sheets have to be > > developed that would be entirely redundant if that browser worked [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > current developers is to implement to cause a particular behavior in some > other implementation, rather than implement according to the standard. So? Apple states on its web site that: "And while the Web is always changing, Apple notes, it asks that anyone building applications stick to the most current languages such as: HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0, CSS 2.1 and partial CSS3, ECMAScript 3 (JavaScript), W3C DOM Level 2, and AJAX technologies, including XMLHTTPRequest ." > That is the quick and easy way, but it causes tremendous problems for a > any third implementation that follows the standard. Microsoft is (justly) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. > Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. > The whole idea of css and the separation of content and style is that > you can use style sheets to reformat for different platforms and > media. Yes...but there are different ways to define "platform". One is as a particular named device or browser (such as "iPhone" or "IE"); the other is as a set of device/browser capabilities. The fact that we have web pages that render correctly on iPhone, but not iPod Touch, indicates that people are doing the former instead of the latter. >> I don't "recommend" IE. I use it, but I also use Firefox at least as >> often (probably more often). > You described IE in your previous post as a 'real browser' and Safari > as 'the worlds worst browser'. Well, yes, IE is a real browser. So is Firefox. It is difficult to respect Safari when it loses the ability to render forms, not because of a CSS issue but rather because an obscure file on ~/Library/FontCollections becomes inaccessible. > If that is not a recommendation of IE over Safari, you tell me what it > is. As the two do not run on the same platform (the Mac version of IE is ancient and unsupported, so it does not count) that is a strawman argument. If I had to recommend one, and only one, browser it would be Firefox. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in news:alpine.WNT.0.9999.0710261411340.4284@Tomobiki- Cho.CAC.Washignton.EDU: > If I had to recommend one, and only one, browser it would be Firefox. Amen....on Linux...fasten seat belts sign is lighted. I just found out, today, while playing with the iPhone SAFARI DOESN'T ROTATE INTO HORIZONTAL! How awful...and stupid! Of ALL the applications that should rotate on an Iphone's little low-res screen, SAFARI SHOULD! If you magnify the webpage so you can read the text....it's ALWAYS wider than the vertical screen requiring constant scrolling side to side. That's PITIFUL! Firefox is the new browser of Maemo Internet Tablet Linux OS2008....(c; Nokia listens to their customers. Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. > I just found out, today, while playing with the iPhone SAFARI > DOESN'T ROTATE INTO HORIZONTAL! You are full of it. It does rotate!!! SignatureCharles Charles <fort514@mac.com> wrote in news:261020072125539196%fort514 @mac.com: > You are full of it. It does rotate!!! THREE units DIDN'T rotate and the sales guy who didn't know much couldn't make it rotate on the 3 demo units at ATT Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. > THREE units DIDN'T rotate and the sales guy who didn't know much > couldn't make it rotate on the 3 demo units at ATT Duh. You turn the iPhone horizontal and Safari rotates. Either you are a liar or you and the sales guy are both idiots. SignatureCharles > > THREE units DIDN'T rotate and the sales guy who didn't know much > > couldn't make it rotate on the 3 demo units at ATT > > Duh. You turn the iPhone horizontal and Safari rotates. Either you are > a liar or you and the sales guy are both idiots. if the iphone is horizontal, like on a table and rotated... it won't rotate for obvious reasons. it only rotates when being held at a 25% (approx) or more angle. Oxford <colalovesmacs@smart.com> wrote in news:colalovesmacs- 7B6D6A.09221128102007@mpls-nnrp-06.inet.qwest.net: >> > THREE units DIDN'T rotate and the sales guy who didn't know much >> > couldn't make it rotate on the 3 demo units at ATT [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > rotate for obvious reasons. it only rotates when being held at a 25% > (approx) or more angle. I was holding it upright in my hand. I think some joker hacked it to make it look bad when none of the ATT reps were paying proper attention..... Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. Charles <fort514@mac.com> wrote in news:281020070715343963%fort514 @mac.com: > you and the sales guy are both idiots. I suppose it's both of us. NONE of the 3 units rotated Safari when the unit was rotated. Maybe someone got past it and hacked them when noone was looking. I couldn't believe it was so stupid as NOT to rotate. I know nothing of iPhone except there's damned few control you can see on any preference pages....I was hunting to find out how to stop it from just switching back to the home page after 5 seconds of no tapping. I never found it, but didn't stay long. Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. > I can tell you very confidently that a css style sheet is easier to > implement on a web site than to re-purpose that site to conform to > WAP. > > Additionally to that, css is a well understood and widely used method > of adjusting to different media needs. This all goes along with Apple's Do-It-Our-Way of thinking. People buy computer equipment BACKWARDS. They buy a pretty box with no idea what they want. First, look at what you want to do with it....and HOW you want to do it. Then, look around for software that does BEST what you want at the most reasonable price. Then, look at the software to see what operating system it runs under. Then, find a box that runs that operating system the most efficient and economical way to meet the specifications. Buying hardware is the LAST STEP in the process, not the first. You should be holding the software in your hand while shopping for hardware so you can take it for a ride before buying a bunch of overpriced hardware that won't run it, or runs it under some stupid converter to make it run under the OS it wasn't designed for. Buying hardware FIRST is just STUPID. Larry Signature"I love the mauve box with the big screen even though I have no idea what it can do for me! The salesman said it has a 400GHz motherboard with 8TB of RAM and 12TB hard drive! I only want it to run Micro$oft Word and to store pictures from my camera." > This all goes along with Apple's Do-It-Our-Way of thinking. ah, Apple has always built machines to allow you to do it exactly "your way" without the fuss of Microsoft and the clones which lock you into backwards technology without any control. > People buy computer equipment BACKWARDS. They buy a pretty box > with no idea what they want. But the "pretty design" is exactly what you get "inside and within" the software. Apple does the "whole product", so if you see a pretty Mac, you know it's pretty to use, pretty to upgrade, pretty to maintain, etc. Apple creates the "whole widget", no other company has these advantages if they buy non-Apple equipment. > First, look at what you want to do with it....and HOW you want to > do it. Yes, agree. > Then, look around for software that does BEST what you want at > the most reasonable price. Yes, agree. > Then, look at the software to see what operating system it runs > under. Ah, but if it doesn't run on a Mac, it won't be of a high enough quality. > Then, find a box that runs that operating system the most > efficient and economical way to meet the specifications. And 99% of the time it's a Mac. > Buying hardware is the LAST STEP in the process, not the first. Correct. That's why buying a Mac is the easy choice since it RUNS ALL SOFTWARE, you don't get locked into just Windows with a Mac, you can run 30 OSs with no issues. You can't do that with a windows machine. Macs are well known as the most OPEN machines for this very reason. > You should be holding the software in your hand while shopping > for hardware so you can take it for a ride before buying a bunch > of overpriced hardware that won't run it, or runs it under some > stupid converter to make it run under the OS it wasn't designed > for. Well that's only if you are in a blue collar position. If you are a professional, a Mac will be the way to go 99% of the time. > Buying hardware FIRST is just STUPID. Not really, if you go with a Mac you are safe since it runs ALL software, if you buy just a PC, you are kinda locked out of many possibilities. - >> This all goes along with Apple's Do-It-Our-Way of thinking. > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - If Apple computers and software provide a user with anything they would ever need to do - Why would an Apple computer owner need another OS especially Windows? Since the latest versions of Apple OS uses the same processor as Windows - AND - if Steve Jobs really wants to overtake Microsoft - why doesn't Apple just release a version of Apple OS to run on a Windows machine. Then rather than upgrading to Windows Vista, everyone could upgrade to the Apple OS? > If Apple computers and software provide a user with anything they would ever > need to do - Why would an Apple computer owner need another OS especially [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > just release a version of Apple OS to run on a Windows machine. Then rather > than upgrading to Windows Vista, everyone could upgrade to the Apple OS? OSX is only 50% of the Mac. Windows hardware just isn't up to the same standards as a Mac, so if you put it on Windows hardware, you'd be back to the mess that is called Windows. And nobody wants to repeat that failure, so keeping OSX on quality hardware is best for the consumer, provides better value for the $. If you want to run Vista on a Mac, you can do so, get a Mac. http://www.apple.com/mac - ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.verizon.] > OSX is only 50% of the Mac. Windows hardware just isn't up to the same > standards as a Mac, so if you put it on Windows hardware, you'd be back > to the mess that is called Windows. Bullshit. Newer Macs use much of the same hardware, idiot. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com SoCal Fire news @the L.A. Times: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/breakingnews/ Local wildfire coverage, KFMB-TV San Diego: http://cbs8.com/ Oxford <colalovesmacs@smart.com> wrote in news:colalovesmacs- 63FFF9.16424426102007@mpls-nnrp-04.inet.qwest.net: > If you want to run Vista on a Mac, you can do so, get a Mac. > > http://www.apple.com/mac How do you operate right-click on a 1-button mouse?? What about wheel clicks and movements?? MacMouse would be quite useless on Vista with no way to get to the popup menus. Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. Oxford <colalovesmacs@smart.com> wrote in news:colalovesmacs- 234096.23511125102007@mpls-nnrp-06.inet.qwest.net: > ah, Apple has always built machines to allow you to do it exactly "your > way" without the fuss of Microsoft and the clones which lock you into > backwards technology without any control. Hey! You're tellin' me! I just came from the ATT store looking at the differences between the iPhone and my Nokia N800 Linux tablet. "My Way" was to rotate the MOST IMPORTANT internet client on the device around to HORIZONTAL MODE so I could READ THE TEXT on any webpage! WTF? IT DOESN'T ROTATE?! Everything rotates, right? Nope. Whoever made the statement "Safari Sucks" hit the nail DEAD ON THE HEAD. Open a webpage and the WHOLE webpage is about 2.5" tall with 4 pixel text even you kids can't read. So, I spread the text out to something big enough to read. UNfortunately, when you do that, the BROWSER is ONLY 320 pixels WIDE, if you full screen it. Most webpages don't autowrap to something that tiny so I ended up sliding back and forth slewing with my finger just to read what it said. WHY DOESN'T IT ROTATE HORIZONTAL??!! That's the biggest blunder I've seen on it. I never noticed it until I went by the ATT store to compare picture quality with my N800. On a multimegapixel professonally-taken flickr photo, the N800 ATE ITS SHORTS, mostly because the picture was BIGGER, not because it was better. But, God! IT DOESN'T ROTATE HORIZONTALLY?! I'd never use it vertically because the print is TOO SMALL TO READ! How stupid! ---------------------------------------------------- ATT is close to Best Buy. I stopped by to see someone I know who works there and the new iPodphoneclone MP3 player with the browser on wifi to sell iTunes was there. A pretty teenie bopper came to "help me", so I hung around for her scent...(c; Just for fun, knowing it wouldn't play Realaudio, I took it to BBC Radio: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio and clicked up Radio 1 on this $US400 MP3 player. I clicked LISTEN to go to the great stream BBC provides the world. What I saw is going to make a LOT OF WEBMASTERS with streaming audio PISSED AT APPLE! Instead of the Pod just stating it couldn't play the Realmedia stream...THEY LIED! The box says THE ADDRESS IS INVALID!! The poor webmasters are going to be deluged with broken link complaints if this PoS sells like an iPod! INVALID ADDRESS??!! My heavenly scented teenie bopper, causing my dizzines, said the webpage was down. She knew everything, like most teenie boppers do. I couldn't stand it....pulled out the M800 and played the stream for her...on the speakers. "Hmm...seems to work on your wifi over here..." I just couldn't bring myself to stop her as she strode off to find a Geek to fix the iPodphonecloneplayer. Her scent fading but still detectable enough to keep me swimming, I waited for her heavenly return with said Geek. BBC 1 was still playing away on the N800's mplayer. He told her it wouldn't play Realmedia anything, but couldn't just walk off without playing with the N800 he'd read about but never seen. The iPodphonecloneplayer forgotten, we used BBuy's new wifi to play for a few minutes until his chain handler arrived to break it up. I left. VERTICALLY LOCKED SAFARI REALLY SUCKS! Please tell me they're gonna make it rotate, too! Larry SignatureYou may quote me...(c; Oxford <colalovesmacs@smart.com> wrote in news:colalovesmacs- 234096.23511125102007@mpls-nnrp-06.inet.qwest.net: > Ah, but if it doesn't run on a Mac, it won't be of a high enough quality. See? There you go...buying HARDWARE then trying to find software to run on it..... THAT'S BACKWARDS! Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. Oxford <colalovesmacs@smart.com> wrote in news:colalovesmacs- 234096.23511125102007@mpls-nnrp-06.inet.qwest.net: > Not really, if you go with a Mac you are safe since it runs ALL > software, if you buy just a PC, you are kinda locked out of many > possibilities. Ok, let's see the iPhone run Firefox HORIZONTALLY so I can read the text.... Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in news:alpine.WNT.0.9999.0710242350350.5368@Shimo- Tomobiki.Panda.COM: > the mobile Internet (which you access with > WAP) That's odd. I'm using Opera 8 or Mozilla on my pocket box: http://www.nseries.com/products/n800/#l=products,n800 The OS2008 Linux coming out is dropping the Opera preference for a new Firefox/Mozilla browser. You can switch browser engines with a click, if you like. Mozilla is faster, but Opera has an optimizer server to make the monster pages easier to read and navigate on the little screens. WAP really SUCKS! That's terrible. The N800 and the new N810 are 800 X 480 pixels. Most webpages display horizontally complete in full screen mode at the touch of a button on top. The other 2 buttons (+ and -), when the browser is on top, are the zoom buttons to see the little types. Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. > WAP really SUCKS! That's terrible. Depends on yur POV I suppose. I have several WAP pages bookmarked on my home PC because I like the simplicity of reading information without goofy animated GIFs or flash "intros," banner ads, or pop-ups. Until Accuweather ruined it, their PDA site was the quickest and easiest way to grab a quick 5-day forcast. > The N800 and the new N810 > are 800 X 480 pixels. Most webpages display horizontally [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Larry Wow the guy who used to warn us about "webpage spam" is actually giddy with excitement over reading webpages on a tablet! ;-) Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in news:ffqvvq $suf$1@aioe.org: > Accuweather ruined it, their PDA site was the quickest and easiest way to > grab a quick 5-day forcast. http://maemo.org/community/wiki/applicationcatalog2006/ https://garage.maemo.org/projects/omweather I'm running omweather (aka Other Maemo Weather), a nice little applet that stays on the home screen. I have it setup to update every 30 minutes, but I usually force it with a click when I come online. It gets its data from Weather Underground and displays how many ever days you like as little graphical boxes across or up/down, wherever you place the applet box. When you click on a day, that day opens into a larger box with the graphical forecast/temp/etc. until you click anything else. With this larger box open, you click the SETTINGS if you like or the UPDATE button to get fresh data off of the scheduled times. The first box is CURRENT readings. The other neat thing it does in SETTINGS is gives you menus of all the places Weather Underground tracks on the planet and you add whatever places you want to your own list. With more than one on the list, the applet box has a tiny CITY bar with two arrows on the main applet box. Click the arrows to scroll fwd or back through your fav cities, which causes all the day boxes to instantly switch to that city's current and forecasts. It's really slick, no spam, no webpages, no browser boot or overhead. The applet is really tiny....normal for Linux. For more comprehensive Weather, I'll let you in on a secret...Plymouth State College, Plymouth, NH: http://vortex.plymouth.edu/ The students run one of the nicest, NO SPAM weather websites I have listed. I found it years ago. It's run by PSC's Meterology Department. Important to us in Charleston, it always has the most comprehensive, straight-forward coverage (sat photos, NWS text discussions, pictures) of every tropical storm BEFORE those spam-soaked commercial sites. They must have some really direct connections to NHC/NWS data. A little hurricane symbol blinks in red on the left panel over "tropical weather" when new data has come in. Mt Washington's weather is fun to read in winter...brrr....(c; The website is a pleasure to view. Don't hesitate to email them a nice thank you of appreciation for a job very well done. Larry SignatureThe last crack I'll simply ignore as unnecessary.... I don't do much web browsing on it at all. There are applets to do really neat stuff like internet radio, weather, those kinds of things without opening the browser. I open it once to get the URL for the radio stream to feed the players. Mplayer puts two applet boxes on the main screen, one for internet radio and one for the internal FM stereo receiver. The FM player has access to an online database so it loads itself of all the station in the area you tell it to, making loading the receiver a couple of clicks with unlimited station presets. Stopping in Peoria, tonight, load up Peoria online and play FM. Almost too easy. >> the mobile Internet (which you access with WAP) > That's odd. I'm using Opera 8 or Mozilla on my pocket box: > http://www.nseries.com/products/n800/#l=products,n800 Oh, absolutely, the Nokia N800 accesses the real Internet, whether with Opera (which also has a version for mobile phones) or Mozilla. The Nokia N800 and N810 are fine devices, no question about it. For less than you pay for an iPhone, you can buy a N800 from Amazon (at $230) plus a EVDO phone from Verizon. Then you would have better Internet access AND better phone service! > WAP really SUCKS! That's terrible. I agree. WAP was intended for tiny resolution screens and 2G networks. > The N800 and the new N810 are 800 X 480 pixels. 2.5 times the number of pixels of an iPhone... -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. > > The N800 and the new N810 are 800 X 480 pixels. > > 2.5 times the number of pixels of an iPhone... and heavy / bulky / thick as a brick, poor battery life, poor resolution, no core graphics, bad browsers, no multi-touch, bad resell value, no ipod, no glass screen... other than that, you have a winner Mark! Gene Jones <jasin@janus.com> wrote in news:jasin- 59A382.18222425102007@mpls-nnrp-06.inet.qwest.net: > and heavy / bulky / thick as a brick, poor battery life, poor > resolution, no core graphics, bad browsers, no multi-touch, bad resell > value, no ipod, no glass screen... You forgot some other problems with it.... No Apple and its oddball OSX No AT&T No cellphone carrier hobbling No permanent battery No contracts No training wheels you can't remove No special webpages to make it render Let's address the other points, just for fun at 1AM.... Nokia N800 iPhone Heavy - 206g 135g Bulky - 144 x 75 x 13mm 115 x 61 x 11.6mm Display 4.25" 800x480 3.5" 480x320 Speakers front stereo what speakers?? Runtime-standby 250 hours 250 hours running - who can tell in the real world? Too many variables. With wifi and BT on, connected to one or the other, streaming audio or video with backlight on full bright, 16GB of SD cards installed, 27 processes running, speaker volume wide open, standard battery - over 4 hours continuous duty. I wonder what you users are getting with it playing video brightly, even on earphones with no speakers? Apple's posted times are hilarious with their "preproduction units": "# Talk Time: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2007 using preproduction iPhone units and software. All talk time testing was done connected to a 1900MHz network. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks was turned off. Battery life depends on the cellular network, location, signal strength, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary. # Standby Time: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2007 using preproduction iPhone units and software. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks was turned off. Battery life depends on the cellular network, location, signal strength, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary. # Internet over Wi-Fi: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2007 using preproduction iPhone units and software. Internet over Wi-Fi testing conducted using a closed network and dedicated web and mail server, simulating browsing to 20 popular URLs and checking mail once an hour. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks and Auto-Brightness were turned off; WPA2 encryption was enabled. Battery life depends on the cellular network, location, signal strength, Wi-Fi connectivity, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary. Internet over EDGE: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2007 using preproduction iPhone units and software. Internet over EDGE testing conducted over a 1900MHz EDGE, using a dedicated web and mail server, simulating browsing to 20 popular URLs and checking mail once an hour. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks and Auto-Brightness were turned off. Battery life depends on the cellular network, location, signal strength, EDGE connectivity, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary. # Video Playback: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2007 using preproduction iPhone units and software. Video content was a repeated 2 hour 23 minute movie purchased from the iTunes Store. All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks and Auto- Brightness were turned off. Battery life depends on the cellular network, location, signal strength, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary. # Audio Playback: Testing conducted by Apple in May and June 2007 using preproduction iPhone units and software. The playlist consisted of 358 unique audio tracks, a combination of content imported from CDs using iTunes (128-Kbps AAC encoding) and content purchased from the iTunes Store (128-Kbps AAC encoding). All settings were default except: Call Forwarding was turned on; the Wi-Fi feature Ask to Join Networks was turned off. Battery life depends on the cellular network, location, signal strength, feature configuration, usage, and many other factors. Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary." I wonder how much current "specific iPhone units" use doing the same thing as YOURS....?? WTF?? If 4 hours isn't enough, I can buy the EXTENDED Sellphone battery for mine. That'll make it run longer, but without a back panel, I suspect. We could argue this absurdity all night. I have no idea what "no core graphics" means. It renders every webpage that isn't running JAVA. Javascript, Flash 9, Opera 8 (one of the most internet standard compliant web browsers on the planet). I need a better DivX codec that will render movies larger than 800 pixels wide in mplayer. I'm missing some codecs from the iPhone website....DivX, RealVideo/audio, Windoze Media, Flash video/audio to name the most important ones. I see iPhone renders only up to 640 x 480 VGA video. You do have a nicer camera at 2M pixels. Nokia's is made to be a webcam, which works great for what it was made for. This paragraph also answer the "poor resolution" crack. 800 pixels beats 480 every time. Once converted to 800 pixels, DivX movies look beautiful, in spite of the only 65,000 colors. That extra 3/4" of screen matters, too. Tell me about "multi-touch"...?? M800 has a touchscreen that responds correctly to stylus and fingers and handwriting you train it for. It single clicks, doubleclicks, touch'n'drags to move the app screen around, but doesn't have that all-important spread-my-fingers to magnify. I have to press the + and - buttons on top on either side of the full screen button. What's "multitouch" do better?? Is that the two fingers? Bad browsers - Opera 8 and Mozilla Firefox. How awful! Now let's discuss money.... I paid $222 on buy.com for a new N800. Add ONE 8GB SD card from the mem store at $68 to be fair about comparible memory and that comes to $290. Some of you paid $600 for an 8GB iPhone on opening day when the companies were in holdback mode. The official price for a NEW one is now $399, losing you $201, already. UNhacked iPhones only a few months old are going for about $350. They've lost more money on those phones than my N800 COST! This doesn't take into account the ATT termination fee or other money trickery. Some of the hackers are listing unlocked Iphones with 1.1.1 firmware for around $350. Sorry....there's only two N800's on Ebay, tonight and their buy now price is $25 MORE than I paid buy.com for mine. More will come for sale after the N810 wow's 'em. The screen looks like polycarbonate. I wish it were NOT reflective and I wish the metal front of it was FLAT BLACK, but it's not. The N810 is better in that respect. I hate white-faced TV appliances with shiny parts that reflect EVERYTHING. Iphone is the same way. So are most laptops, except a few Dell models, admirably. No iPod? Hmm...before I loaded other players and codecs on it, it played, out of the box: Supported file formats * Audio: AAC, AMR, AWB, M4A, MP2, MP3, RA (RealAudio), WAV, WMA * Image: BMP, GIF, ICO, JPEG, PNG, TIFF, SVG-tiny * Video: 3GP, AVI, H.263, MPEG-1, MPEG-4, RV (Real Video) * Internet radio playlists: M3U, PLS But, with my downloading a few more really neat players like Kagu and Canola and UK Media Player and Video Center and Media Streamer, it plays a LOT more codecs, now....even streams! These apps and applets installed a lot of libs and they don't tell me what all codecs they do. It plays everything except my big DivX movies wider than 800 pixels just fine.... It is interesting comparing them, as has been done on countless webpages and blogs. But, they're really different boxes other than OS. Yours is a smartphone. Mine is an Internet appliance. Mine's phone number costs $60/year each. (It has 2, USA and London) My interconnect costs $30/year for unlimited service USA and Canada, incl HI, AK, PR. Europe is 2.1c/min to phones, to other Skype users, it's all free. Sure hope Skype has a video driver for the little webcam, soon. I miss it. The webcam works great on Googletalk and others like it. I bought it, originally, because it was the first portable Skype phone that would allow me to logon to free wifi that required a webpage logon to get access, something my Netgear SPH101 Skype phone would not do. They went one better. It bypasses the webpage logon, somehow. It simply connects...??? I don't care how. The wifi transceiver in it is much better than either the Dell or Gateway laptops I use. It's a hot wifi box. Larry Signature2AM...g'night...(c; > You forgot some other problems with it.... > > No Apple and its oddball OSX OSX is the most widely used Unix in the world by a wide margin. > No AT&T Offers the most coverage for the least price. > No cellphone carrier hobbling ? not sure what you mean there. > No permanent battery The iPhone battery is fully replaceable. Here is one for $20. http://snipurl.com/1srq5 > No contracts You don't need a contract with the iPhone. It works with a per month GoPhone mode as well. > No training wheels you can't remove What training wheels? > No special webpages to make it render ??? not sure what you mean. > Let's address the other points, just for fun at 1AM.... > Nokia N800 iPhone > Heavy - 206g 135g yes, a 1/3rd heavier. > Bulky - 144 x 75 x 13mm 115 x 61 x 11.6mm thick, bulky > Display 4.25" 800x480 3.5" 480x320 But the display is clearer on the iPhone > Speakers front stereo what speakers?? The iPhone has speakers > Runtime-standby 250 hours 250 hours Good, the Nokia equals the iPhone in one area. > running - who can tell in the real world? Too many variables. > With wifi and BT on, connected to one or the other, streaming > audio or video with backlight on full bright, 16GB of SD cards > installed, 27 processes running, speaker volume wide open, > standard battery - over 4 hours continuous duty. Yes, agree... but overall the iPhone has a much longer battery life. Even simple things like when you put it up to your ear to talk, it senses the MASS of your head, then dims the screen to black. Pull it away, it brightens back up. The nokia doesn't do that. - ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.verizon.] > OSX is the most widely used Unix in the world by a wide margin. Which markets does that apply to? Desktop? I don't doubt it. Server? Probably not. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com SoCal Fire news @the L.A. Times: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/breakingnews/ Local wildfire coverage, KFMB-TV San Diego: http://cbs8.com/ Gene Jones <jasin@janus.com> wrote in news:jasin- 4AD99C.16383026102007@mpls-nnrp-04.inet.qwest.net: >> No cellphone carrier hobbling > > ? not sure what you mean there. You must be very naive. Don't you wonder why it only plays iTunes, not Realplayer or the other COMMON formats used by internet radio stations like BBC? It's because the CARRIER, ATT, doesn't WANT YOU TO DO STREAMING on their bandwidth! Geez...get out of that vacuum bottle! Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. Gene Jones <jasin@janus.com> wrote in news:jasin- 4AD99C.16383026102007@mpls-nnrp-04.inet.qwest.net: >> No permanent battery > > The iPhone battery is fully replaceable. Here is one for $20. > > http://snipurl.com/1srq5 "This was one of the toughest ones we've ever seen.", he says in the video parting shot. What a piece of $hit! SOLDERED IN battery?! NOONE solders in the battery! Even my little Sansa Express tiny MP3 player has a PLUG IN BATTERY! This is $400?! Most interesting video, thanks for the pointer. I didn't see anything resembling replaceable MEMORY, AKA memory cards. I guess you're supposed to pay ATT to move anything on and off it...again the iTunes-for-Money effect....Sellphone! I move music, video, pdf files, etc. on and off it by removing the 2nd 8GB SDHC card, conveniently behind a little weather plug under the handle, plug it into a Sansadisk SD-to-USB adapter because the SD reader in my Gateway only reads 4GB cards, and plug it into my USB hub #2. Now, with the 8GB card a removeable disk drive, I can copy/move stuff on/off it very easily and quite fast to the main PC. Some files are huge...(c; I could plug the N800 into the USB hub, but that runs slower than memory direct.... Replacing my battery, a standard Nokia BP-5L, just take the back off it, which also gives you access to the internal 8GB SDHC memory card, the other one, and flipping the battery out of the metal holder like a normal Sellphone. It has gold pins to make with the gold battery contacts. I'm never out of power long. There's a spare battery in my carrying case: The OEM BP-5L is used in many Nokia phones and is about $16 from a thousand places on the net. The 2nd battery I bought was a Duracell Li-POLYMER battery, the newer technology for $18. It's still 1.3AH, same physical size to fit in the metal frame. Changing the battery takes 10 seconds IF you have fingernails...and doesn't void Nokia's warranty. Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. >Gene Jones <jasin@janus.com> wrote in news:jasin- >4AD99C.16383026102007@mpls-nnrp-04.inet.qwest.net: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >battery?! NOONE solders in the battery! Even my little Sansa >Express tiny MP3 player has a PLUG IN BATTERY! This is $400?! Ahh, now *this* is entertainment. Larry fighting with a sock puppet troll. Priceless! ;-) Gene Jones <jasin@janus.com> wrote in news:jasin- 4AD99C.16383026102007@mpls-nnrp-04.inet.qwest.net: > But the display is clearer on the iPhone Nope...just smaller. Took my N800 to ATT store this morning to check that allegation. It just isn't so. Professional multimegapixel pictures look identical, just bigger and more beautiful on the bigger N800 screen. The Wikipedia photo is from the little WEBCAM that pops out the side, VGA webcam, not a camera. That photo isn't fair at low rez like that. Any good flickr picture looks the same on both of them, except for the size. >Yes, agree... but overall the iPhone has a much longer battery life. >Even simple things like when you put it up to your ear to talk, it >senses the MASS of your head, then dims the screen to black. Pull it >away, it brightens back up. The nokia doesn't do that. The nokia doesn't have an internal earphone, moot point. It has speakers. It's not a Sellphone. I bet what the iPhone is sensing is your face pressing lots of touchscreen simultaneously, triggering that function until you pull your face away. Speaking of things iPhone does automatically, when we were playing with them, 3 of them on a display, this morning, ALL THREE of them kept switching from Safari to the home screen in about 3 seconds while we were looking at the webpages. We didn't touch them...they just did it. We searched and searched for some control to turn that off so it would STAY in Safari but never found it. How do you force it to NOT switch away from the webpage? The ATT salesman was very nice, but unfamiliar with the product he was selling to a fault. He had no idea how to control it. As to my head, I would never put the Nokia to my ear and have the speakers blow my eardrums! It's flip out stand makes phoning on Skype a pleasure, but its microphone is TOO sensitive and picks up background noise if you talk too softly because Skype automatically adjusts mic gain to meet conditions. Everyone reports they don't hear any echos when I'm on Skype with the speakers instead of earphones. OS2008 for my N800 and the new N810 coming out has expanded bluetooth capability to include both handsfree BT Sellphone headset and BT stereo headset/speaker support OS2007 doesn't. OS2008 will be out "soon"...I'm sure before the Christmas retail orgy. There's a slidecontrol to change screen brightness from the taskbar. You use control panel to set the automatic controls when it dims itself after the last screen click. I hope you guys can get Flash 9, RealMedia, WM and Java support in the near future. I'm sure this is all related to it being a Carrier-controlled Sellphone, with the company trying to stop the unpaying streaming they all do quite well. I suppose I can see their point trying to hobble anything that uses continuous bandwidth. There's not enough quicktime streams to matter. I hope the N8xx series gets JAVA support, which it doesn't have, now, too. Some of my fav NOAA websites use JAVA to render radar/satellite movies. N800 won't play them, dammit. Will iPhone stream MP3 audio or is that hobbled, too? Larry SignatureThis is a most interesting conversation between us, but the Verizon people are quite upset. Let's move this thread to alt.cellular.attws on all future posts to this thread off Verizon, where they choose not to participate as they can't even stream anything for $60/month. I'll redirect all the posts I post but keep the comp.sys.mac.advocacy the same....thanks. > > The N800 and the new N810 are 800 X 480 pixels. > > 2.5 times the number of pixels of an iPhone... but not as clear as the iphone. that sucks. nokia has no clue about handling resolution. fuzzy, fuzzy, very similar to using a windows PC, no thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:N800.jpg Gene Jones <jasin@janus.com> wrote in news:jasin- 1FBDF9.18264925102007@mpls-nnrp-06.inet.qwest.net: > fuzzy, fuzzy, very similar to using a windows PC, no thanks. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:N800.jpg Boy, are you in for a shock! That picture is from the little webcam that pops out the side of the N800, not playing the display! The webcam is only 640x480 VGA! Are you talking about the little webcam or the 4.25" 800 pixel screen?? iPhone takes much better pictures with its camera....but that's useless as a webcam sending out live video the Sellphone company doesn't want you to use it for. You need to see a DivX movie playing, even from Orb over Realvideo. I'd love to compare the screens, side-by-side, looking at an iPhone camera still picture at full resolution in full screen mode. That would be a much better comparison than what wiki is showing you in that jpg. Tell you what, I know just where we can go for perfect pictures to compare them. Find an N800 and browse both iPhone and N800 to http://mahmood.tv/ a blogger in Bahrain. He's a professional video photographer with his own video production company. He takes beautiful digital stills around his beautiful garden with the finest digital cameras on the planet. He posts them to flickr in groups for all to see. Let's render them on both iPhone and N800 screens. I'll drop by the deserted ATT company store and look for myself on the demo units and my N800, tomorrow if things go without crisis. Find his pictures from his blog. He posts every day. I don't think you can render his videos, though. Sorry.... Larry SignatureYou can tell there's extremely intelligent life in the universe because they have never called Earth. > WAP really SUCKS! Sure, but given the capabilities of the devices for which it was developed, it was worth a try. It showed us some of the potential of mobile web access. I wouldn't consider it a failed experiment, just a technology that was OK for its time, and can be abandoned now. -jcr {who cares?] Would you happen to be the same Mark Crispin from whom Lynn Gold is so happily divorced? The guy who used to pollute the comp.sys.next.* newsgroups? -jcr > no native app info there . . . Not yet, of course. The SDK doesn't come out until February, and that includes the documentation, which is being written as we speak. -jcr > Today, Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center... Complete with technical > documentation, sample code, and videos through ADC on iTunes, the iPhone [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Enjoy! You did claim that you know all about netiquette so why did you start a new thread in alt.cellular.verizon ? >> Today, Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center... Complete with technical >> documentation, sample code, and videos through ADC on iTunes, the iPhone [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You did claim that you know all about netiquette so why did you start a > new thread in alt.cellular.verizon ? My guess is that he wanted us all to know that the iPhone web browser requires optimizing Web 2.0 applications and content for iPhone. lol > > Today, Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center... Complete with technical > > documentation, sample code, and videos through ADC on iTunes, the iPhone [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You did claim that you know all about netiquette so why did you start a > new thread in alt.cellular.verizon ? simply because tverizon users have the most to gain by developing for the iphone. they are locked into nokia, blackberry, so they are trapped. at least apple offers a more open option, plus a far better phone. verizon users are moving over in droves, 4,500 per day by some estimates but wanted to get the word out to programmers for the big iphone pushes coming up. - >>> Today, Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center... Complete with technical >>> documentation, sample code, and videos through ADC on iTunes, the iPhone [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - You are just so desirous of having Steve Jobs baby that you don't realize how silly you look. But thanks for respecting the netiquette... >> You did claim that you know all about netiquette so why did you start a >> new thread in alt.cellular.verizon ? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - This is one of the most bullshit, disingenuous answers I've heard. On many levels. First and foremost - you do it to TROLL - you have some mental defect that makes you THINK you need to come into another newsgroup and evangelize. No one wants this information in a.c.v and no one in a.c.v thinks you are credible. In fact, I'd bet that by now, anything you post is now written off as 100% horseshit. Second: ANY developer worth a damn that wanted to program for an iPhone already knows. If YOU have to tell them, they probably don't give a damn about it anyway. Or are too stupid to do quality work or to even DO the work at all. Your 'justification' is one of the poorest excuses I've ever seen for bad behavior. You want to incite, you want to irritate and you WANT to be an a.shole. >> verizon users are moving over in droves, 4,500 per day by some estimates >> but wanted to get the word out to programmers for the big iphone pushes [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > bad behavior. > You want to incite, you want to irritate and you WANT to be an a.shole. You said it better than me... Oxford <colalovesmacs@smart.com> wrote in news:colalovesmacs- 847E09.20250324102007@mpls-nnrp-03.inet.qwest.net: > http://developer.apple.com/iphone/devcenter/ All nicely company controlled, as usual..... Remember the big reward for the first guy to run Linux on the Xbox? I'd just love to see the iPhone bootup with little Tux waving at you from the screen....(c; THAT would be HILARIOUS! Larry SignatureWhy, by the way, did you post this to Verizon not attws or cingular for the customers to see? Is there an agenda I'm missing? > > http://developer.apple.com/iphone/devcenter/ > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > THAT would be HILARIOUS! Apple wouldn't care one bit. They encourage that type of development. Linux has been on the iPod for many years. Apple doesn't do a thing about it. Same with the iPhone. You have to remember Apple is very hippy, not control freaks like MS. - Oxford laid this down on his screen : > Today, Apple Opens iPhone Dev Center... Complete with technical > documentation, sample code, and videos through ADC on iTunes, the iPhone [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Enjoy! Isn't there some kind of apple or Iphone group you can pollute? |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.