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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Verizon / January 2008

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How can I prevent roaming with the Motorola E815?

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David - 24 Jan 2008 04:44 GMT
Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my Motorola
E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.

Thanks,

David
Lee - 24 Jan 2008 13:26 GMT
> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my Motorola
> E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.

I have had the E815 for over 2 years and have never incurred a roaming
charge!  I travel up and down the east coast.  I always understood
that it would not connect if a roaming charge was necessary.  I will
be interested in any replies also.

Lee
SMS - 24 Jan 2008 14:14 GMT
>> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my
>> Motorola E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Lee

If you have the old America's Choice plan, there can be roaming charges
(the roaming indicator is steady, not flashing). With the current plans
there is no extra cost roaming allowed--you will simply not be able to
connect (other than to 911). Verizon used to have two sets of maps, one
for the old America's Choice plan and one for the current one, with the
former having far more coverage mainly because of all the off-network
AMPS roaming.

I have the old America's Choice plan, and I have roamed extensively with
the roaming indicator steady (which indicates extra-cost roaming) and I
have never been charged extra, even though they were certainly entitled
to charge me. This included roaming onto AT&T's AMPS network (something
that you can't do with the E815 anyway) in the Florida Everglades, as
well as onto the AMPS network in Alaska (where much of the state has
only AMPS coverage).

Perhaps the poster has another reason why he doesn't want his phone to
roam onto other CDMA carriers, unrelated to any potential charges.
Dennis Ferguson - 24 Jan 2008 16:56 GMT
>> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my Motorola
>> E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that it would not connect if a roaming charge was necessary.  I will
> be interested in any replies also.

I'm betting he lives near the Canada border.  I'm not sure Verizon
has a way to turn Canada roaming off in your account (and you might
not want to do that anything if you sometimes need to travel there)
so you need to have a way to tell your phone not to do it when you
don't want it.

Dennis Ferguson
David - 25 Jan 2008 04:12 GMT
>>> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my
>>> Motorola
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Dennis Ferguson

You are correct- my phone will pick up Canadian towers while I am in
Michigan.

Someone had taught me how to prevent roaming with the LG Chocolate VX8550 I
have- I had to enter a password to access a configuration menu, something
like the associated number keys for "setupvx8550."  I can't remember
exactly.

I had to stop using the VX8550 because I learned that it is not really a
phone.  It's not quite an MP3 player either but at least it functions
decently as a voice recorder and crappy camera.
Richard B. Gilbert - 24 Jan 2008 15:58 GMT
> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my Motorola
> E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David

Doesn't the phone tell you when it's "roaming"?  My old ST7868W did
though not very often; I live in the Philadelphia area and I don't know
of anywhere that I'm likely to be where Verizon does not have coverage.

Anyway, if the phone tells you it's roaming, wait and place your call
when it's not.
David - 25 Jan 2008 04:22 GMT
>> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my Motorola
>> E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Anyway, if the phone tells you it's roaming, wait and place your call when
> it's not.

Oh sure, there's an indicator on the phone that will light up when it is
roaming.  I use this phone for business and personal use.  Perhaps some
cellular customers out there have gotten in the habit of looking at the
indicator each and every time they make or receive a call.  I have not.
Perhaps I should call Verizon and ask them if they suggest that I check that
indicator each and every time I make or receive a call using the Bluetooth
handsfree headset while driving.  That would just defeat the purpose!  One
of the reasons I switched back to the E815 from LG's VX8550 is because of
Motorola's superior voice recognition- very useful while driving.

I don't think anyone could convince me that Verizon is not capable of
preventing customers from placing roaming calls, if Verizon wanted to.  They
certainly have no problem charging for the call and preventing customers
from making calls if they are not paying their bills.  I am certain the
technology exists to make this happen.

What bothers me more than Verizon not offering a "no roam" feature (or
requiring it on all of their phones) are consumers who act like an indicator
on the phone is more than enough.

I think these cellular companies should offer to text customers when they
reach certain numbers of used minutes and/or certain bill amounts (I've read
several stories about bills over $10k because of data charges lately)... Of
course I do understand why they don't.

David
Peter Pan - 25 Jan 2008 06:45 GMT
>>> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my
>>> Motorola E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> David

In most cases, I would agree, however, for some nefarious reason, quite a
few canadian cell sites use the exact same sid's as the us cell cite, so
even if you set your phone to home only, it's in the prl, so it uses it, and
then they send the us companies a bill for the airtime.. Sure wish the
canadians didn't use false sid's so they can suck money out of unsuspecting
us customers.... (and before you assume it is a verizon/cdma thing they do
it to gsm customers also, these are canadian companies that PURPOSELY do it
to get money from us subscribers... unfortunately, no easy way to stop
international theft, it's not against THEIR laws...
David - 25 Jan 2008 15:21 GMT
>>>> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my
>>>> Motorola E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> PURPOSELY do it to get money from us subscribers... unfortunately, no easy
> way to stop international theft, it's not against THEIR laws...

Seems an easy way to deal with it would be for Verizon to send the bills
right back to them and tell them to shove it the nearest Canadian hole.  You
explanation helps me understand the cause of the problem a bit more though,
I'll have to (seriously ) think about that a bit more.

Thanks,

David
Dennis Ferguson - 25 Jan 2008 18:19 GMT
>> In most cases, I would agree, however, for some nefarious reason, quite a
>> few canadian cell sites use the exact same sid's as the us cell cite, so
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> explanation helps me understand the cause of the problem a bit more though,
> I'll have to (seriously ) think about that a bit more.

I think you are falling for a conspiracy theory, and a silly one at
that.  If the Canadian phone company were using the Verizon SID then
your phone wouldn't know it was roaming and wouldn't turn on the
roaming indicator.

I think you are also getting confused about who is putting your roaming
charges in their pocket.  Verizon is perfectly capable of blocking
international roaming from your account if they feel like doing it,
and for most countries this is exactly what they do by default.  If
you want to take your phone to Korea, or Mexico, or China and use it
there, you'll need to talk to Verizon first and get them to enable
international roaming on your account or your phone won't get service.
When you call Verizon they'll check your credit again, and if you don't
have a score significantly higher than you needed to qualify for domestic
postpaid service they'll decline to enable it.  The reason Verizon does
this is for Verizon's protection; Verizon needs to pay the foreign
companies serious money for your roaming service, so they want to make
sure you'll pay them back before they let you do it.

There are, however, a few places where Verizon will let you roam without
the credit check and, as you've discovered, Canada is one of them.
I think the reason for this is that the roaming rates Verizon pays to
those carriers are quite tiny, on the order of domestic roaming
rates.  Both Verizon and Bell Mobility offer, or have offered, plans
which include roaming in the other country for not a whole lot more
than domestic-only plans, and the reason they can do this is that
roaming in the other country isn't much more expensive to them than
the domestic-only roaming that is already included in most plans.
I pay Verizon about $20 per month more than an equivalent domestic-only
plan for inclusive roaming in Canada and Mexico, and I think most of
that difference is going to pay for Mexico.  Canada roaming costs
Verizon very little.

So Verizon doesn't feel any need to protect themselves from Canada
roaming charges since those charges don't cost Verizon much.  If you
qualify for Verizon postpaid service you can go to Canada and knock
yourself out using the phone there too; if you stiff Verizon for that
bill Verizon's actual out-of-pocket loss will be limited enough that
they don't need to worry about it more than they worry about domestic
roaming.

So, when you pay 69 cents/minute for a Canada roaming call, the
Canadian company gets a little bit of that but most of it goes to
Verizon.  The Canadian company doesn't particularly want to roam
on their network since they don't make a whole lot of money from
that (the Canadian company instead makes their money by charging
their customers high prices for roaming on Verizon's network), and
Verizon doesn't have a lot of incentive to help you avoid the
charges since buying minutes for very little and selling them for
69 cents is fine business if you can do it.  Your problem is
really with Verizon alone.

Dennis Ferguson
SMS - 25 Jan 2008 21:38 GMT
> There are, however, a few places where Verizon will let you roam without
> the credit check and, as you've discovered, Canada is one of them.
> I think the reason for this is that the roaming rates Verizon pays to
> those carriers are quite tiny, on the order of domestic roaming
> rates.

So is there no way now to have Verizon disable _all_ international
roaming, including Canada?

I had them disable my international roaming, but now that I think of it,
I did use my phone in Canada nevertheless, and I guess I just don't
think of Canada as "international," it's almost like our 51st state.

When I go to Asia (other than Korea and Japan) I use a prepaid GSM
phone. But I had been carrying my CDMA phone along as well.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) the new CDMA systems being deployed
across Asia are using the same bands as in the U.S., and it was too
tempting to answer calls rather than having them go straight to voice
mail, but I wanted the phone on for my phone book and calendar. At least
with my GSM phones, I have to manually change them to 900/1800 for
international (outside North America) use.

I know that PagePlus doesn't roam in Canada, and it's on Verizon's
network, so clearly it's possible to control it.
Dennis Ferguson - 25 Jan 2008 22:32 GMT
>> There are, however, a few places where Verizon will let you roam without
>> the credit check and, as you've discovered, Canada is one of them.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So is there no way now to have Verizon disable _all_ international
> roaming, including Canada?

I don't think so.  Here's what the web page says:

   International Dialing feature (I-Dial) is required on your account
   before you leave the U.S. for international roaming. To roam in
   Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Guam, Jamaica, Saipan,
   and the United States Virgin Islands the I-Dial feature is not
   required. Eligibility restrictions apply.

It is that I-Dial feature they are adding and deleting for you,
I don't think they have a feature to disable the other places.  Note
that the USVI "International" roaming is with Sprint, and I'm betting
they don't pay more for that than they pay Sprint to roam anywhere
else.  Even T-Mobile calls USVI roaming (with AT&T) domestic.

Dennis Ferguson
Todd Allcock - 25 Jan 2008 23:04 GMT
> When I go to Asia (other than Korea and Japan) I use a prepaid GSM
> phone. But I had been carrying my CDMA phone along as well.
> Unfortunately (or fortunately) the new CDMA systems being deployed
> across Asia are using the same bands as in the U.S., and it was too
> tempting to answer calls rather than having them go straight to
> voice mail, but I wanted the phone on for my phone book and calendar.

Are you charged one-minute of calls that go voice mail?  On T-Mobile since
the foreign carrier "handles" the call, even if you don't answer it, you
get whacked one minute even for calls than go to VM.

For this reason, I forward my T-Mo number to my VoIP number before leaving
the country, and the VoIP provider texts me any missed calls and/or VMs
(with Caller ID, if available.)  This is an order of magnitude cheaper than
the one-minute roaming charge.

> At least with my GSM phones, I have to manually change them to
> 900/1800 for international (outside North America) use.

Those days are pretty much gone!  ;-)  Most, if not all, tri- and quad-band
phones sold these days don't need manual frequency selection!

> I know that PagePlus doesn't roam in Canada, and it's on Verizon's
> network, so clearly it's possible to control it.

Does PP use standard Verizon PRLs and roaming agreements or do they have
their own?  (Although I was already advised PP didn't roam in Mexico, I
tried it a couple of weeks ago.  Although it found the Mexican CDMA
network, I just got a system-message recording when I tried calling out.
SMS - 27 Jan 2008 17:07 GMT
>> When I go to Asia (other than Korea and Japan) I use a prepaid GSM
>> phone. But I had been carrying my CDMA phone along as well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the foreign carrier "handles" the call, even if you don't answer it, you
> get whacked one minute even for calls than go to VM.

I never noticed any charges for this, but sometimes I don't even open my
Verizon bill. I see the charge on my credit card statement, and if it's
not the usual amount, I may go on-line and look at the bill, but that's
rare.

> Those days are pretty much gone!  ;-)  Most, if not all, tri- and quad-band
> phones sold these days don't need manual frequency selection!

Yeah, well my unlocked "Europe/Asia" phone is pretty old.

>> I know that PagePlus doesn't roam in Canada, and it's on Verizon's
>> network, so clearly it's possible to control it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tried it a couple of weeks ago.  Although it found the Mexican CDMA
> network, I just got a system-message recording when I tried calling out.

I don't know.

I've been in areas where my kids were being asked to double dialing on
PagePlus (roaming at 59¢/minute) but I didn't check my regular Verizon
phone to see if it was roaming on AC1. Plus, I've never been charged for
U.S. roaming on AC1 even when roaming on AT&T's AMPS network.
Peter Pan - 26 Jan 2008 02:05 GMT
> I think you are falling for a conspiracy theory, and a silly one at
> that.  If the Canadian phone company were using the Verizon SID then
> your phone wouldn't know it was roaming and wouldn't turn on the
> roaming indicator.

<snip>
> Dennis Ferguson

Not exactly a theory, since in fact it happened, I have the bills, and it is
repeatable as of a few weeks ago... I was staying in a friends beachhouse
just south of buffalo ny on the lake (canada on the other side).. Had the
phone set to home only.. 3rd floor of the house no problem, but downstairs
or on the beach it picked up the tower accros the lake, with the SAME sid,
no roaming indicator showed, and any calls made from downstairs were charged
as both roaming AND international calls!
Dennis Ferguson - 27 Jan 2008 07:00 GMT
>> I think you are falling for a conspiracy theory, and a silly one at
>> that.  If the Canadian phone company were using the Verizon SID then
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> no roaming indicator showed, and any calls made from downstairs were charged
> as both roaming AND international calls!

I can't argue with that, but I think I'd dispute who makes the money
on your bill.  My Verizon plan includes roaming in Canada, and I can
phone US and Mexican numbers from there with my minutes at no extra
cost. If I used all the minutes in my plan that I'm allowed to in a
month in Canada I would pay about 3 cents per minute for the roaming
use.  I don't think Verizon prices plans so that they can lose money,
so I doubt Verizon pays more than that for roaming in Canada.

So for every minute of roaming on your bill Verizon sent a few cents
to Canada and kept the rest.  The main beneficiary of the money you
spent roaming would be Verizon, not the Canadian carrier (the Canadian
carrier instead makes its money when its customers roam on Verizon's
network).

In any case, if there's a tower in Canada that lures Verizon customers
into roaming, the company that is making the huge bulk of the revenue
from the scam is Verizon.  I don't think Verizon would do a scam like
that (any more than I think the Canadian carriers would do a scam like
that) so I might be inclined to look for another explanation.

Dennis Ferguson
Todd Allcock - 25 Jan 2008 16:32 GMT
> In most cases, I would agree, however, for some nefarious reason, quite a
> few canadian cell sites use the exact same sid's as the us cell cite, so
> even if you set your phone to home only, it's in the prl, so it uses it, and
> then they send the us companies a bill for the airtime..

That sounds like a load of crap.  I have a very hard time believing that
the CRTC would allow anything like that, and even if they did, US-based
cell companies would pressure them to stop (in roaming negotiations) or
simply refuse to pay.  

> Sure wish
> canadians didn't use false sid's so they can suck money out of unsuspecting
> us customers.... (and before you assume it is a verizon/cdma thing they do
> it to gsm customers also, these are canadian companies that PURPOSELY do it
> to get money from us subscribers... unfortunately, no easy way to stop
> international theft, it's not against THEIR laws...

Surrrrre...

Seen "Canadian Bacon" one too many times?
Dennis Ferguson - 24 Jan 2008 16:49 GMT
> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my Motorola
> E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.

I don't know about the E815.  My LG phone has a menu
(Settings->System->Select System) which gives you a choice between
"Home Only" and "Automatic" which I think does what you want.  I
thought all Verizon phones had the same menu so I'm surprised the
E815 hasn't got it.

I sympathize because I have the opposite problem.  When I'm in Toronto
(my phone roams there for free) my phone keeps preferring a Verizon
tower it can hear across the lake, but which is too far away to actually
make a call with, to the local roaming service.  The phone is useless
about a third of the time because of this.  Virtually all Sprint
digital phones have network selection menus which do the right thing
for both of us, but Verizon doesn't seem to mind selling phones which
leave useful functions out.

Dennis Ferguson
Peter Pan - 24 Jan 2008 16:55 GMT
>> Since Verizon claims to be incapable of preventing roaming on my
>> Motorola E815, I am hoping someone here knows how.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Dennis Ferguson

There is that menu on the e815 also, however, it depends on where your home
is, and what contract you have.... (ie if you have a contract that gives you
more minutes but your home is only one sid, it won't work elsewhere)
 
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