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Cellular Phone Forum / Providers / Verizon / February 2006

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VOIP horror story

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Remove This - 24 Feb 2006 05:34 GMT
http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S14441.html?cat=1

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I work for the  ILEC  ...." stuff happens! "

Agent_C - 24 Feb 2006 17:10 GMT
> http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S14441.html?cat=1

Their own fault... They obviously didn't set up their 911 service when
they signed up for VOIP.  They're supposed to link their number (and
location) to the local municipality's 911 exchange.

A lot people don't do this, so the carrier has to manually look up the
account details... determine which municipality to transfer the call
to; and then put it through. That's what was happening while they were
on hold.

It sounds like the carrier did exactly what they were supposed to.

A_C
Mike T. - 24 Feb 2006 17:17 GMT
>> http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S14441.html?cat=1
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> A_C

We've always got our cell phones close to us, and they are pre-programmed
with LOCAL emergency numbers.  (ie, not 911, all 10 digits)  -Dave
Remove This - 24 Feb 2006 20:09 GMT
> We've always got our cell phones close to us, and they are pre-programmed
> with LOCAL emergency numbers.  (ie, not 911, all 10 digits)  -Dave

Smart move, at least for the next few milleniums...As long as you remember
where you "are"

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I work for the  ILEC  ...." stuff happens! "

Rich - 24 Feb 2006 22:56 GMT
>>> http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S14441.html?cat=1
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>We've always got our cell phones close to us, and they are pre-programmed
>with LOCAL emergency numbers.  (ie, not 911, all 10 digits)  -Dave

that may not work in all jurisdictions, dave.  take west suburban
chicago where i am.  all of the old 7-digit emergency numbers were
dropped many, many years ago.  if you dial the local police business
number they will tell you to hang up and dial 9-1-1 (if not an
emergency).  if your call to them is urgent they will forward the call
to the 9-1-1 center but then you'll lose valuable time.  if you don't
travel much and you know that your local police/fire still have active
7-digit numbers then your plan will work.  

73,
rich, n9dko
Isaiah Beard - 26 Feb 2006 17:37 GMT
> that may not work in all jurisdictions, dave.  take west suburban
> chicago where i am.  all of the old 7-digit emergency numbers were
> dropped many, many years ago.  if you dial the local police business
> number they will tell you to hang up and dial 9-1-1 (if not an
> emergency).  

I guess that makes sense considering most of the less-intelligent public
will dial 911 for even the most mundane issues, but I can see where that
will cause serious confusion with adjacent locales, especially if
there's one that doesn't want you calling 911 unless your house is
burning AND someone's stabbed you 50 times.

I guess the problem is that everyone has a different perspective on what
constitutes an "emergency."  Evidently, west suburban chicago has just
given up altogether on trying to define it.

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Rich - 26 Feb 2006 22:59 GMT
>> that may not work in all jurisdictions, dave.  take west suburban
>> chicago where i am.  all of the old 7-digit emergency numbers were
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>constitutes an "emergency."  Evidently, west suburban chicago has just
>given up altogether on trying to define it.

our approach was, and is, that all dispatchable calls are best handled
on 9-1-1 where we sort them out and dispatch by priority, not first
in, first out.  anything that did not require the dispatch of a police
officer, firefighter or medical unit was asked to hang up and call the
station 7-digit business number.  worked very, very well for us.  the
call center has 45 or so inbound 9-1-1 trunks.  apart from a major
storm we never had reports of a busy signal.  

73,
rich, n9dko
David S - 27 Feb 2006 05:28 GMT
>>We've always got our cell phones close to us, and they are pre-programmed
>>with LOCAL emergency numbers.  (ie, not 911, all 10 digits)  -Dave
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>travel much and you know that your local police/fire still have active
>7-digit numbers then your plan will work.  

Where I live (just a few miles from you), we have a 7-digit number that
goes straight to the 911 desk. In fact the last four digits of that number
are 0911.

The main problem I see with using regular numbers instead of 911 is that
the phone and the cellular system won't treat it as an emergency call --
the phone will stick to its PRL instead of taking the best signal it can
find regardless of the carrier.

I used to also worry that the call would be charged as a normal call, until
I realized that 45 cents per minute overage is a cheap price to pay for
putting out a fire sooner or saving a life. (Not to mention that I never
use even half of my minutes anyway.)

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http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
Remove the naughty bit from my address to reply
Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
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doesn't work. It really wasn't a guy's ploy to get laid." - Hugh Hefner

Rich - 27 Feb 2006 12:33 GMT
>>>We've always got our cell phones close to us, and they are pre-programmed
>>>with LOCAL emergency numbers.  (ie, not 911, all 10 digits)  -Dave
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>putting out a fire sooner or saving a life. (Not to mention that I never
>use even half of my minutes anyway.)

dave, our concern and the primary reason for dropping the old 7-digit
numbers was missing an emergency call if, and when, a 7-digit line
rang at the dispatcher's console at the same time a 9-1-1 line rang.
the priority would be given to 9-1-1 lines  but that doesn't mean
there wouldn't have been an emergency/urgent call on the 7-digit line.

case in point.  i recall several years ago a fellow was at home
cleaning his handgun. two mistakes...he failed to unload it and had it
pointed at his gut when it went off.  instead of dialing 9-1-1 he
called the station number because, and i quote, "i wasn't hurt that
badly".  lucky for him the station was open (small town) and the desk
clerk was able tog et his address before he passed out.  she forwarded
the info to the 9-1-1 center and help was dispatched.  he survived.

73,
rich, n9dko
Remove This - 24 Feb 2006 20:08 GMT
>> http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S14441.html?cat=1
>
> Their own fault...

Careful. Might want to wait for the "autopsy"

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I work for the  ILEC  ...." stuff happens! "

George - 24 Feb 2006 20:30 GMT
>>http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S14441.html?cat=1
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> A_C

But vonage 911 doesn't work like "real 911". They were supposed to do it
but are dragging their feet. "real 911" is what you get on a normal
landline phone. The call is immediately sent to the proper call center
and the operator sees your information and in some centers gets a map of
your location and the locations of emergency vehicles. You could be
having a heart attack or some other situation where you can't relate any
information and emergency services will show up. The vonage 911 simply
connects you (if you provided the info) to a clerical number at the 911
center and you need to provide your information.

My neighbor is alive today because of "real 911". He came home and felt
sick. His wife was still out. He dialed 911, had a heart attack and
died. The paramedics were able to restart his heart. If he had been
using vonage (or others) his family would have been burying him last year.
Dean - 24 Feb 2006 23:24 GMT
George,

This is not meant as a criticism, just an observation. I've seen many
stories just like the one you related, and they are not an exaggeration. In
fact, I've witnessed resuscitators save lives, but how they do so reminds me
of a curious fact I've known so long I forgot that most people don't realize
it.

Every year, we have to take a CPR/Resuscitator Refresher course. One year,
the Paramedic giving the course was somewhat of a comedian. The brand of
resuscitator we use is "Heart Start". He made the comment that the equipment
was mis-named.....that actually how they work is thusly;

Serious cardio-events often don't actually STOP the heart, but  put it into
a state called "fibrillation", where the heart muscle just quivers instead
of pumping. The defib actually STOPS the heart and "encourages" it to start
beating normally again.

The Medic went on to say that they originally wanted to name the box "Heart
Stop", but someone in the sales department didn't think they'd sell too many
with that name, so "Heart Start" it became.

True story, and quite off-topic, but couldn't resist.

Back on topic, the 911 shortcomings of VoIP are, or should be, quite
well-known at this point. Consumer Reports and other publications take great
pains to point this out when comparing VoIP to landline phone services. 911
accuracy is obviously also an issue in cellphone-land, where AFAIK, a
cellular 911 call will NEVER give a specific address, at most it can tell
which tower received the call, and the area covered by that tower probably
encompasses dozens of square miles (maybe 100??  or more??) so you'd better
know where you are when you dial 911 from the cell.

Dean
______________________________________

>>>http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S14441.html?cat=1
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> The paramedics were able to restart his heart. If he had been using vonage
> (or others) his family would have been burying him last year.
George - 25 Feb 2006 13:45 GMT
> George,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of a curious fact I've known so long I forgot that most people don't realize
> it.

None taken, I understand what defib does and I did use the word "restart"

> Every year, we have to take a CPR/Resuscitator Refresher course. One year,
> the Paramedic giving the course was somewhat of a comedian. The brand of
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> well-known at this point. Consumer Reports and other publications take great
> pains to point this out when comparing VoIP to landline phone services.

Most people don't pay attention to this type of stuff and just assume it
works. vonage is especially troublesome because you plug your normal
phones into it so people don't realize something is different. A friend
just got vonage in a house with both kids and an elderly parent and had
absolutely no idea that 911 doesn't work properly using vonage.

 911
> accuracy is obviously also an issue in cellphone-land, where AFAIK, a
> cellular 911 call will NEVER give a specific address, at most it can tell
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>The paramedics were able to restart his heart. If he had been using vonage
>>(or others) his family would have been burying him last year.
Rich - 25 Feb 2006 13:53 GMT
>Back on topic, the 911 shortcomings of VoIP are, or should be, quite
>well-known at this point. Consumer Reports and other publications take great
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>encompasses dozens of square miles (maybe 100??  or more??) so you'd better
>know where you are when you dial 911 from the cell.

dean, you're correct about wireless 9-1-1 not providing a specific
address but wireless 9-1-1 calls can provide no data on the caller's
location or some data on the caller's location or a latitide/longitude
plot representing the caller's location.  it all depends on several
factors including the technology (or lack thereof) in the caller's
phone, the method of plotting a caller used by the carrier, whether
that method has been implemented in the caller's area and whether or
not the e9-1-1 PSAP (public safety answering point) is equipped to
receive and utilize the data.  

wireless 9-1-1 is implemented over four phases.  phase 0 means the
call reaches a call center but no data on the caller or the caller's
location is transmitted.  the next phase (we called it phase 1/2)
provides the cell tower location and maybe the specific face of the
tower being used.  phase 1 provides the caller's callback telephone
number.  phase 2 provides phase 1 data along with a map plot.

best case scenario...the caller has a newer phone equipped to transmit
the lat/long thru a carrier that has implemented that solution in the
caller's area to the properly equipped e9-1-1 psap.  the e9-1-1
operator receives the call and begins speaking with the caller.
meanwhile, the database retrieves the wireless account owner's name
and callback number.  a separate plot of the lat/long data is applied
to a digitized map at the e9-1-1 operator's work station.  depending
on factors such as how accurate the map is, is the caller inside a
structure, is the caller inside a moving vehicle, etc. the plot can be
as much as 30 meters off.  if you're in the wilds of wyoming that's
not too bad.  if you're in downtown chicago 30 meters can be
problematic.  the plot will not provide elevation so  if you're in a
highrise building or anywhere above the 1st floor you had better tell
the operator.  

all of the above is for a GPS equipped phone.  the fcc has allowed the
wireless carriers to choose between a GPS (lat/long) solution and what
they call a network solution.  the network solution is basically good
old fashioned triangulation.  the error with this method can be as
much as 100 meters.  but the good news is that phones do not have to
be replaced.  before i retired from the biz there were a couple of
carriers considering the network solution but i don't know if they
finalized that or went with a GPS solution.  

73,
rich, n9dko
(thankfully retired)
 
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